FACT: Too much senjutsu chakra turns people without SM training to stone

[UchihasRightfulHeir]

CM = Senjutsu. Orochimaru already says this. All it is is utilizing sage chakra as CM provides sage chakra to the body. CM users can however not sense nor absorb natural energy directly. That is the difference. It is still sage chakra. Sasuke can already control Senjutsu.

And ps, not every sage mode has the same negative effects. Juugo clan members do not turn to stone. I would assume Hashirama sage mode would not turn you to stone. Only frog sage mode would do that.

 

[Amazeballs]

To be fair, Senjutsu training does teach one to balance natural energy with regular to chakra to even produce Senjutsu chakra. Without Senjutsu training, being an expert at "chakra control" won't help much, because the user won't actually have Senjutsu chakra to control; they first need to master the crucial step of actually converting natural energy into usable chakra.

Sasuke could probably handle it, because he's somewhat accustomed to Natural Energy and can feel its presence. However, in the manga, he's only used Senjutsu through either the Cursed Seal or Juugo, both of which handled the conversion of Natural Energy into Senjutsu for him. Sasuke has never had to actually convert Natural Energy into Senjutsu.

Madara did the same thing; he stole Hashirama's Senjutsu chakra, and apparently even channeled it through the Hashi face on his chest (since that's where the Sage markings appeared). So Madara never gathered Natural Energy for himself, either.

Neither of these points suggests that Madara/Sasuke couldn't absorb Senjutsu with their Rinnegan and be fine. They could, and Edo Madara has done so. In fact, so could Nagato's Preta Path; it absorbed multiple Senjutsu Rasenshuriken without turning into a frog. The only reason that Nagato's Preta Path turned into a frog is that Naruto, realizing that his chakra was being absorbed, created an unbalanced type of "Sage Chakra" that was overloaded with Natural Energy. If Naruto had used it, he would have also begun turning into a frog.

 

[UchihasRightfulHeir]

To be fair, Senjutsu training does teach one to balance natural energy with regular to chakra to even produce Senjutsu chakra. Without Senjutsu training, being an expert at "chakra control" won't help much, because the user won't actually have Senjutsu chakra to control; they first need to master the crucial step of actually converting natural energy into usable chakra.

Sasuke could probably handle it, because he's somewhat accustomed to Natural Energy and can feel its presence. However, in the manga, he's only used Senjutsu through either the Cursed Seal or Juugo, both of which handled the conversion of Natural Energy into Senjutsu for him. Sasuke has never had to actually convert Natural Energy into Senjutsu.

Madara did the same thing; he stole Hashirama's Senjutsu chakra, and apparently even channeled it through the Hashi face on his chest (since that's where the Sage markings appeared). So Madara never gathered Natural Energy for himself, either.

Neither of these points suggests that Madara/Sasuke couldn't absorb Senjutsu with their Rinnegan and be fine. They could, and Edo Madara has done so. In fact, so could Nagato's Preta Path; it absorbed multiple Senjutsu Rasenshuriken without turning into a frog. The only reason that Nagato's Preta Path turned into a frog is that Naruto, realizing that his chakra was being absorbed, created an unbalanced type of "Sage Chakra" that was overloaded with Natural Energy. If Naruto had used it, he would have also begun turning into a frog.

Before the war, when Sasuke had CM, the curse mark did the conversion from Natural energy to Senjutsu. Which Sasuke showed he could control.

Spoiler

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During the war, Sasuke used juugo to absorb natural energy directly, then converted it himself and applied it to his susanoo. There is no CM here to do it for him. So he did it himself(a feat which OP claims can't be done without training. And at VOTE2, Sasuke senses Naruto gather all that Natural energy. So he has done most the steps needed to do SM at some point in the manga.

The only step that he has not done ever, is directly absorb Natural energy. But the argument here is his ability to control it, which he has already done in the manga.

 

[true enigma]

you one step ahead of others

Sasuke can handle senjutsu better than naruto!!!!!!

I have no words for you sir.

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Seems like madara didnt have a problem either, and if im not mistaken sasuke was stated by several high level shinobi to pass his previous indra successor.

 

[UchihasRightfulHeir]

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Seems like madara didnt have a problem either, and if im not mistaken sasuke was stated by several high level shinobi to pass his previous indra successor.

Simply ignore them. They claim that is the hashirama cells doing the work. That argument does not even help their case. Even if the argument was somehow true, last I checked, hashirama cells themselves were difficult to control. Yet madara could easily handle Sage enhanced hashirama cells, even found it below his expectations. lol.

Yet, Madara says he worried he wouldn't be able to control sage chakra, not that his hashirama cells wouldn't be able to handle it. People need to stop hating.

 

[Exaar]

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Seems like madara didnt have a problem either, and if im not mistaken sasuke was stated by several high level shinobi to pass his previous indra successor.

Look at your own scan.

The sage mode markings went of madara's hashiboob. Hashirama's cells and the modifications made to madara's body allowed him to control hashirama's sage mode. Otherwise the markings would of been on Madara's face.

Madara in life had shown no ability to control senjutsu (before his modifications), Even though he clearly knew about it.

 

[Michael]

Look at your own scan.

The sage mode markings went of madara's hashiboob. Hashirama's cells and the modifications made to madara's body allowed him to control hashirama's sage mode. Otherwise the markings would of been on Madara's face.

Madara in life had shown no ability to control senjutsu (before his modifications), Even though he clearly knew about it.

Exactly, faps ignore this major fact. Some even claim sasuke can do the same as modified madara.

 

[Styles]

Senjutsu oysters turn people into a stone toad if they can't control and balance the NE.

 

[Amazeballs]

Before the war, when Sasuke had CM, the curse mark did the conversion from Natural energy to Senjutsu. Which Sasuke showed he could control.

Spoiler

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During the war, Sasuke used juugo to absorb natural energy directly, then converted it himself and applied it to his susanoo. There is no CM here to do it for him. So he did it himself(a feat which OP claims can't be done without training. And at VOTE2, Sasuke senses Naruto gather all that Natural energy. So he has done most the steps needed to do SM at some point in the manga.

The only step that he has not done ever, is directly absorb Natural energy. But the argument here is his ability to control it, which he has already done in the manga.

My point wasn't that Sasuke can't control Senjutsu, but simply that Sasuke has never independently gathered Natural Energy or transformed it into Senjutsu chakra by himself. I disagree that Sasuke used Juugo to gather Natural Energy and converted it into Senjutsu by himself; Juugo's power is Senjutsu, meaning that Juugo was the one who did the conversion, and Sasuke then took that Senjutsu chakra and melded it with his Susano'o. It's subtle, but it's a significant difference. The same applies to when Sasuke had the Curse Mark; the Curse Mark's power was already Senjutsu, meaning that Sasuke didn't have to worry about harnessing Natural Energy or converting it into Senjutsu.

Again, I think we're in agreement on most of this. I'm just trying to clarify the difference between being able to control Senjutsu and being able to control Natural Energy. The OP in this thread linked images of Preta Path being turned into a stone frog due to absorbing too much Natural Energy (or Senjutsu chakra that was heavily unbalanced due to containing too much Natural Energy), which is different from instances in which Sasuke/Madara proved that they were able to handle Senjutsu. It is possible for a Shinobi to be able to tolerate a high level of Senjutsu chakra without necessarily controlling actual Natural Energy.

 

[Amazeballs]

Before the war, when Sasuke had CM, the curse mark did the conversion from Natural energy to Senjutsu. Which Sasuke showed he could control.

Spoiler

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During the war, Sasuke used juugo to absorb natural energy directly, then converted it himself and applied it to his susanoo. There is no CM here to do it for him. So he did it himself(a feat which OP claims can't be done without training. And at VOTE2, Sasuke senses Naruto gather all that Natural energy. So he has done most the steps needed to do SM at some point in the manga.

The only step that he has not done ever, is directly absorb Natural energy. But the argument here is his ability to control it, which he has already done in the manga.

Again, I believe Juugo's body converts the Natural Energy into Senjutsu already. I believe taking power from Juugo amounts to taking Senjutsu, not taking Natural Energy. Sasuke didn't have a Curse Mark, but Juugo's body is essentially a Curse Mark; the Curse Mark replicates Juugo's clan's ability to passively convert Natural Energy into Senjutsu, and in this case Sasuke had Juugo to simply do it instead.

It's nitpicking, but that's my understanding.

Spoiler

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In that scan, Orochimaru states that "Juugo's Curse Seal is Senjutsu." He explains further that when Orochimaru injected Juugo's chakra into Sasuke (i.e., gave Sasuke the Cursed Seal), he (Sasuke) was able to release its power. In other words, Juugo's chakra is Senjutsu.

So applying Juugo's Senjutsu to Sasuke's Susano'o is not really Sasuke converting Natural Energy into Senjutsu chakra; it's more like Sasuke linked his Chakra to Juugo and used Juugo as a giant Curse Mark.

 

[DHOH]

To be fair, Senjutsu training does teach one to balance natural energy with regular to chakra to even produce Senjutsu chakra. Without Senjutsu training, being an expert at "chakra control" won't help much, because the user won't actually have Senjutsu chakra to control; they first need to master the crucial step of actually converting natural energy into usable chakra.

Sasuke could probably handle it, because he's somewhat accustomed to Natural Energy and can feel its presence. However, in the manga, he's only used Senjutsu through either the Cursed Seal or Juugo, both of which handled the conversion of Natural Energy into Senjutsu for him. Sasuke has never had to actually convert Natural Energy into Senjutsu.

Madara did the same thing; he stole Hashirama's Senjutsu chakra, and apparently even channeled it through the Hashi face on his chest (since that's where the Sage markings appeared). So Madara never gathered Natural Energy for himself, either.

Neither of these points suggests that Madara/Sasuke couldn't absorb Senjutsu with their Rinnegan and be fine. They could, and Edo Madara has done so. In fact, so could Nagato's Preta Path; it absorbed multiple Senjutsu Rasenshuriken without turning into a frog. The only reason that Nagato's Preta Path turned into a frog is that Naruto, realizing that his chakra was being absorbed, created an unbalanced type of "Sage Chakra" that was overloaded with Natural Energy. If Naruto had used it, he would have also begun turning into a frog.

This person gets it.

 

[Illuminater]

You can be a chakra control God and still be unable to control natural energy. It's not that easy. Otherwise NAruto would have had it mastered in a day or two when he first learned about it. Also sasuke didn't surpass Madara yet in that scan. He was still very much weaker. In fact blind madara could solo him low diff. HE only surpassed him when he gained the free handout from hagoromo

 

[Nick01]

I agree, although the Sasuke fappers will keep on spouting fanfics to support their fav.

 

[super michael]

Here the question did Hashirama train with anyone to gain Sage Mode? We know Hashirama isn't Frog Sage Mode or Dragon Sage Mode.

 

[Zavage10]

The databook essentially says that DSM and cm are one in the same.