Eye of the Moon: Who's Plan...?

[H4wk]

i think it was madaras plan but tobi maybe tweeked it

 

[Avani]

This is not a theory. Its a simple question: who's plan was the Eye of the Moon(Infinite tsukiyomi) initially, Tobi or real Madara's?.
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It seems Tobi is the mastermind, not Madara. Tobi has claimed the plan to be 'my plan' many times, Madara did'nt when he mentions it. Perhaps it was just part of Tobi's guise to deceive others about his identity to refer to the plan as his own, but even after he's busted(revealed not to be Madara) he clings to the plan as if it were an obsession.

Another reason i feel this way. Tobi was a master of genjutsu, he placed an illusion on the Mizukage that lasted for weeks, if not months. He was the mentor of such an expert at constructing fictional worlds of illusion as Itachi.
In his fights so far, Madara has shown to be more of a physical, / ninjutsu type fighter.

This is a little unrelated, but there is the point of Shisui Uchiha. Tobi sought out his eye after Danzo died and was angry when he learned it had been crushed....why? We now Know that not only could Shisui's eye control others when covered, it had a jutsu that could permanently place you under a genjutsu(Itachi' implanted crow in Naruto which frees him of the edo). My guess: Tobi wanted to use Shisui's eye to perform the Infinte Tsukuyomi.

Thoughts/comments?
P.S: if u press the 'thank' button, it won't bite.

It looks like Madara and Tobi both think it was their plan. But Madara had been dead so long that Tobi changed it somewhat- probably put himself in the lead.

He is smart cunning and in control- why should he hand over power to Madara?

And Kabuto also seems to make a bet on it.

 

[NarutoKage2]

It looks like Madara and Tobi both think it was their plan. But Madara had been dead so long that Tobi changed it somewhat- probably put himself in the lead.

He is smart cunning and in control- why should he hand over power to Madara?

And Kabuto also seems to make a bet on it.

Is it possible for Kabuto to become the primary anatgonist in place of Tobi? If he did, then he'd have to implant sharingan/rinnegan into himself or use edo Madara, otherwise the tsukuyomi cannot be cast.

And yeah, i agree he has no reason to hand over control, Tobi was probably the one whose plan it was to begin with or even if it was'nt he now seems to have made it his own......it all depends on how Tobi and real Madara are connected, what was their relation to each other? Who was the senior partner? Lots of questions.

 

[soggysombrero]

it could be the underworld one. lol. susano'o is like an underworld demon, and sasukes shoots a bow, sooooooooo I DUNNO

 

[-S-]

TOBI'S!!!! He fooled Madara, and also fooled Sasuke when he said he would give sasuke the power of the tailed beasts. You want evidence, here:

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[Baka Sennin]

yeah, i came to the same conclusion when i read madara's statement on the infinite tsukuyomi. however, with the latest development i think tobi is just another tool also, there could be someone else behind the scenes.

 

[JojocIaw]

yeah, i came to the same conclusion when i read madara's statement on the infinite tsukuyomi. however, with the latest development i think tobi is just another tool also, there could be someone else behind the scenes.

^More than likely this is what Kishi may have been hinting during his 2008 interview. Madara (which should include Tobi as well) will only play a minimal role but there is a more sinister force behind the shadows and I doubt its the 10 tails. But we have yet to see.

 

[NarutoKage2]

yeah, i came to the same conclusion when i read madara's statement on the infinite tsukuyomi. however, with the latest development i think tobi is just another tool also, there could be someone else behind the scenes.

Unlikely. Mastermind is either Madara(real one) or Tobi. As i have said in the thread, i think its Tobi.

 

[leafeater]

Nice thread, interesting theory, and well composed.

Kabuto said to Edo Madara that Tobi doesn't seem to be following the original plan via Muu's voice, but that Kabuto is here to work for him (or something along those lines). To me this indicates that the original plan was conceived at least in part by the original Madara and perhaps Izuna since for a while they did everything together, but I don't when it was conceived.

Madara grew up in a time of war from baby to his fight with Hashirama basically because he could not accept the peace with Hashirama and the Leaf. Further, as the one of the strongest, if not the strongest descendants of the elder son, Madara shares his view with peace by force (e.g. Infinite Tsukiyomi) as opposed to love, which the younger son proposed. I think Madara handed this task off to Tobi when he knew he was going to die with the agreement that he would run things until Madara returned via Rinne Tensei not Edo Tensei. All these things point to this all least being conceived of by Madara and Tobi is using a variant of it to suit his personal needs as well, which we learned more about in the last chapter.

After all, Tobi knows the suffering of being "No one," and the quickest way to change that is to make himself someone by being supra-human as the Juubi Jinchuuriki (Tobi stated that this made the So6P's supra-human at the Kage summit). Further, look at what controlling their Bijou has done for Naruto and Bee who were already excellent shinobi. Then the world won't have to sit up and acknowledge him and his plans because they think he's Madara but because of Tobi's own power.

I think that Tobi can still fulfill the Infinite Tsukiyomi going this, his current, Moon's Eye plan route, but with recognition and awe of the ninja world in the process, for who he is and without Madara's name. Further, he'll have power to stand up to Edo Madara if needed, as he'll no longer have a body that will be a shell of its former self. Something I'm sure Kabuto and Edo Madara don't want given Kabuto betrayed Tobi and Edo Madara already has his hands full. I suppose Kabuto does too with Itachi (i.e. Edo Chuck Norris) coming after him, and god only knows what Sasuke's doing, possibly might run into Kabuto, though I don't think Kishi would make a big thing of it, and given he's currently insane "in the darkness", we won't get to see the great duo of Sasuke and Itachi, which is disappointing.

Edit: A couple of points, to address yours at the bottom of your post.

1.) I recall that when Yamato was captured that Onooki's number one fear was the extraction of knowledge by Madara's doujutsu, which he regarded as extremely powerful. Given that when he was very young when he saw Madara, Onooki may have been over frightened but I think the panel showed him to be old enough to have reasonable judgement and now tempered by experience to be fearful of Madara's genjutsu even though he's been using ninjutsu, which is most appropriate here for large scale attacks. He's taking out both major players and cannon fodder. It's impractical to try to Tsukiyomi or whatever his MS genjutsu is on all of them. Further, if I recall he did catch one in genjutsu during the fight so far.

2.) Shisui's eye would not work for Infinite Tsukiyomi, first for the obvious reason, namely that it doesn't cast Tsukiyomi but his MS genjutsu was Kotoamatsukami, so I guess at best it would be like eternal Kotoamatsukami, but his genjutsu appears to already be permanent unless it's discovered or something. Itachi's hasn't been broken for example, but the one on the Iron country Samurai has. The problem with Shisui's is that his genjutsu just gives you ideas or commands that you think are your own, while Tsukiyomi creates a new reality for the user that reshapes their entire space and time (Itachi could stretch it to at least 72 hours, this would be eternal; thus, a lifetime practically speaking) at the control of the genjutsu caster, and that's what Tobi & Madara want everyone to be in while they manipulate space to generate peace by force, which is the way of the elder son.

Peace

 

[NarutoKage2]

Nice thread, interesting theory, and well composed.

Kabuto said to Edo Madara that Tobi doesn't seem to be following the original plan via Muu's voice, but that Kabuto is here to work for him (or something along those lines). To me this indicates that the original plan was conceived at least in part by the original Madara and perhaps Izuna since for a while they did everything together, but I don't when it was conceived.

Madara grew up in a time of war from baby to his fight with Hashirama basically because he could not accept the peace with Hashirama and the Leaf. Further, as the one of the strongest, if not the strongest descendants of the elder son, Madara shares his view with peace by force (e.g. Infinite Tsukiyomi) as opposed to love, which the younger son proposed. I think Madara handed this task off to Tobi when he knew he was going to die with the agreement that he would run things until Madara returned via Rinne Tensei not Edo Tensei. All these things point to this all least being conceived of by Madara and Tobi is using a variant of it to suit his personal needs as well, which we learned more about in the last chapter.

After all, Tobi knows the suffering of being "No one," and the quickest way to change that is to make himself someone by being supra-human as the Juubi Jinchuuriki (Tobi stated that this made the So6P's supra-human at the Kage summit). Further, look at what controlling their Bijou has done for Naruto and Bee who were already excellent shinobi. Then the world won't have to sit up and acknowledge him and his plans because they think he's Madara but because of Tobi's own power.

I think that Tobi can still fulfill the Infinite Tsukiyomi going this, his current, Moon's Eye plan route, but with recognition and awe of the ninja world in the process, for who he is and without Madara's name. Further, he'll have power to stand up to Edo Madara if needed, as he'll no longer have a body that will be a shell of its former self. Something I'm sure Kabuto and Edo Madara don't want given Kabuto betrayed Tobi and Edo Madara already has his hands full. I suppose Kabuto does too with Itachi (i.e. Edo Chuck Norris) coming after him, and god only knows what Sasuke's doing, possibly might run into Kabuto, though I don't think Kishi would make a big thing of it, and given he's currently insane "in the darkness", we won't get to see the great duo of Sasuke and Itachi, which is disappointing.

Peace

Nice analysis, and thanks for the comment. However, i disagree. This is what he said:

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'I am unsure if the fake Madara will act as planned.' But planned by whom? Its speculation, but i believe its Tobi's plan, considering :
1. Masked man is obsessed with the plan, saying that's all he cares about:

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2. Madara seems a little detached when he mentions the plan:

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'mankind will be better served sleeping peacefully in the infinite tsukuyomi'.
Moreover, real Madara says ' our plan' to Kabuto, he should have said 'my plan' if he had been the original mastermind.

But the main reason for my hypothesis is:
1. Tobi has been shown to be very well adept at genjutsu . There are 2 reasons why i say this: first because he placed the Mizukage Yagura under a genjutsu which lasted for weeks , if not months and he controlled him like a puppet. Secondly, he was the mentor of such a genious at genjutsu as Itachi so his proficiency at this has to be profound. Therefore the likelihood of making a genjutsu based plan would be more likely for him, as real Madara's techs are primarily ninjutsu/physical offensive based(meteors/susanoo etc)
2. The tech izanagi is a genjutsu placed on oneself which Tobi has also been shown to possess.

 

[tristan]

somehow you have a good hypothesis regarding tobi...

I think tobi is the real mastermind as well, but he's identity is the one that makes it more intriguing...

 

[NarutoKage2]

1.) I recall that when Yamato was captured that Onooki's number one fear was the extraction of knowledge by Madara's doujutsu, which he regarded as extremely powerful. Given that when he was very young when he saw Madara, Onooki may have been over frightened but I think the panel showed him to be old enough to have reasonable judgement and now tempered by experience to be fearful of Madara's genjutsu even though he's been using ninjutsu, which is most appropriate here for large scale attacks. He's taking out both major players and cannon fodder. It's impractical to try to Tsukiyomi or whatever his MS genjutsu is on all of them. Further, if I recall he did catch one in genjutsu during the fight so far.

But why not use tsukuyomi on Naruto as he charged with the giant rasengan or on the Mizukage? In the last few chapters, he would have had at least 1 or 2 chances to try out a MS genjutsu tech, assuming he has one.

2.) Shisui's eye would not work for Infinite Tsukiyomi, first for the obvious reason, namely that it doesn't cast Tsukiyomi but his MS genjutsu was Kotoamatsukami, so I guess at best it would be like eternal Kotoamatsukami, but his genjutsu appears to already be permanent unless it's discovered or something. Itachi's hasn't been broken for example, but the one on the Iron country Samurai has. The problem with Shisui's is that his genjutsu just gives you ideas or commands that you think are your own, while Tsukiyomi creates a new reality for the user that reshapes their entire space and time (Itachi could stretch it to at least 72 hours, this would be eternal; thus, a lifetime practically speaking) at the control of the genjutsu caster, and that's what Tobi & Madara want everyone to be in while they manipulate space to generate peace by force, which is the way of the elder son.

Peace

Not having the tsukuyomi is'nt a valid point in this context. For starters, no one other than Itachi himself has ever been shown to use it and after his death Tobi gave his eyes to Sasuke so i doubt that this is the problem. The thing is, why did Tobi seek out Shisui's eye in the first place from Danzo? He has'nt been shown/known to posses tsukuyomi , true but its possible he may have had it, absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.
There was probably no one better at illusions than Shisui, his doryuko(used on Mifune in the 5 kage arc) and the crow itachi implanted in Naruto are both evidence of this fact. I was going to make a theory of Tobi being Shisui, an exhaustive overview but my computer crashed halfway through and i'm too disheartened to try again(it already had 3000 plus words lol). You see, there is something very important to note that many people seem to miss:
Itachi's tsukuyomi felt like 72 hours for the victim , yes, but how long did it actually last? A mere moment in the real world.Whereas Shisui's genjutsu had a powerful binding force, once activated it keeps the victim under the spell of the illusion for large periods of time, even permanently such as his crow which basically was strong enough to permanently free Itachi from the edo. There is a reason it could only be activated once after every ten years.

So who's eye is more likely to better perform a tech which requires keeping everyone in the real world under permanent genjutsu? A tech which lasted for a mere moment in the real world, like Itachi's, or one that had a permanent effect such as Shisui's? Fyi, tsukuyomi means the 'moon', it does'nt have to mean Itachi's specific genjutsu technique.