Establishing Why Tobirama > EMS Madara

[Flawž]

Good points with the power scaling, it's sad that some people don't understand the concept.

I appreciate his abilities more now. Plus, MS Izuna was supposedly on par with MS Madara. Tobirama defeated the former, so his overall combat potential is high and can stand toe to toe with EMS Madara, I think.

And yes, it's all about the strategy. People need to stop thinking that the size of a jutsu automatically equals victory, Lol

Yea, exactly this.

 

[Gold Lightning]

Fukasaku is. Not Shima. She grabbed the thing with her tongue while Fukasaku sliced it. His suiton is not near as big since he does not have the chakra pool Minato, Tobirama, Nagato, etc have. But he can go in SM.



You can see the part of Susano'o almost splashing away. Look at the scan a little more closely. Then there is another suiton bullet about to hit it as well.

Ah yes it was Fukasaku. I only mentioned it because the op said Tobirama was the only one capable of such a high pressure water jutsu. Fair enough it's a senjutsu enhanced attack but the point still stands. I knew I saw a jutsu similar to Tobiramas severing wave somewhere before.

 

[Penguin]

Ah yes it was Fukasaku. I only mentioned it because the op said Tobirama was the only one capable of such a high pressure water jutsu. Fair enough it's a senjutsu enhanced attack but the point still stands. I knew I saw a jutsu similar to Tobiramas severing wave somewhere before.

Tobirama can use it on a higher scale than Fukasaku can, but Fukasaku can use high pressure suiton. Some people argue that is his tongue though, since it is the fighting tongue lash technique. It cut through some steel pipe I believe.

Edit:

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It was his tongue actually. Look at the *sfx* inflating and deflating. Plus it looks like the tongue had warts on it. Lol

 

[Brother Numpsay]

How can you tell whether it splashed away or it was repelled? We don't see the contact as far as i'm concerned

We have to examine other sebon used in the manga.

Kin Tsuchi[

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]

Shizun[

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]

Sasori[

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][

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]

These sebon shows a clear digestion on how sebon looks. 1. Refined and shaped evenally. 2. Dark pigmentation on white areas.

While Tobirama arent shaped correctly and no dark pigmentation. Which conclude he is using chakra manipulation.

 

[Gold Lightning]

Tobirama can use it on a higher scale than Fukasaku can, but Fukasaku can use high pressure suiton. Some people argue that is his tongue though, since it is the fighting tongue lash technique. It cut through some steel pipe I believe.

I can't really judge which one has more pressure because Fukasaku literally sliced that summon clean. And since Tobirama's one hasn't been animated yet, it's difficult to tell.

 

[3MESSIAH]

Yes because Plot allowed it that way. Feat wise, tobirama is able to Beat EMS madara.

you have a point

but it is always like this.we always analyze how the battle would play out without actually knowing if it would really play out like that.

for all we know madara might have a special tactic designed especially to help him fight against tobirama....and vice versa of course.but fans tend to analyze the entire fight towards their favourite`s advantage.

i do believe tobirama has a good chance of beating madara actually,but i would say more often not then yes.

simply because the manga speaks for itself.it was well established that hashirama was the strongest shinobi and even tobirama feared him....whereas madara almost beat hashirama(yes,it was a very high diff for hashi).in a logic conclusion we could say madara is more powerful than tobirama in the end

but as i`ve said we love to make suitable scenarios for our favourites to justify his victory.as it happens,tobirama has some suitable scenarios and chances for victory,no doubt about that.but in the end i see madara as superior....

 

[salamander uchiha]

Nice thread.

Now correct me if in wrong but didn't Shima use a water jutsu that cut through Pains chameleon with great force and water pressure?

Because chameleon can tank a kyubi beastball right.

 

[Penguin]

I can't really judge which one has more pressure because Fukasaku literally sliced that summon clean. And since Tobirama's one hasn't been animated yet, it's difficult to tell.

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It was his tongue actually. Look at the *sfx* inflating and deflating. Plus it looks like the tongue had warts on it. Lol

 

[Bogard]

We have to examine other sebon used in the manga.

Kin Tsuchi[

You must be registered for see links

]

Shizun[

You must be registered for see links

]

Sasori[

You must be registered for see links

][

You must be registered for see links

]

These sebon shows a clear digestion on how sebon looks. 1. Refined and shaped evenally. 2. Dark pigmentation on white areas.

While Tobirama arent shaped correctly and no dark pigmentation. Which conclude he is using chakra manipulation.

Fair point

 

[Gaara Of The Death]

When first saw this I thought oh no not a wank thread...*sigh*. But you may of actually swayed my opinion on this matter. Good shit the main *****aa Tobirama got held down in this thread.​

 

[Sir Blades]

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It was his tongue actually. Look at the *sfx* inflating and deflating. Plus it looks like the tongue had warts on it. Lol

That wasn't his tongue, that is actually how Kishi drew water for that chapter, but the anime and the games not to mention what you just showed (manga) it was water. Ma, is the one that focuses on tongue techniques as silly as it sounds.

 

[FleeOnSight]

I love tobirama and all and this was indeed a good thread. But it's manga fact that tobirama was never a rival of madara. It was always hashriama going head to head with madara instead for obvious reasons. I'm speaking of the past and not what recently happened between the two.

One could say that tobirama feared madara at some point but I'm not saying that's fact. It's just been stated by Kishi thru madara that the only one that can stop madara is hashriama and hashriama alone. Also stated by Dan who obviously had knowledge of the legendary 1st 2nd and madara.

So I still say madara > tobirama mid to high diff but great thread.

 

[HNIC]

Tobirama can use it on a higher scale than Fukasaku can, but Fukasaku can use high pressure suiton. Some people argue that is his tongue though, since it is the fighting tongue lash technique. It cut through some steel pipe I believe.

Edit:

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It was his tongue actually. Look at the *sfx* inflating and deflating. Plus it looks like the tongue had warts on it. Lol

How do you know his scale is greater. Also, that wasn't his tongue the "warts" are bubbles. Tongues don't shrink in size, which is what happens in that scan.

 

[Xēnovia.]

Ib4 Madara Rules lolz. OT: good points you have there.​

 

[Flawž]

you have a point

but it is always like this.we always analyze how the battle would play out without actually knowing if it would really play out like that.

for all we know madara might have a special tactic designed especially to help him fight against tobirama....and vice versa of course.but fans tend to analyze the entire fight towards their favourite`s advantage.

i do believe tobirama has a good chance of beating madara actually,but i would say more often not then yes.

simply because the manga speaks for itself.it was well established that hashirama was the strongest shinobi and even tobirama feared him....whereas madara almost beat hashirama(yes,it was a very high diff for hashi).in a logic conclusion we could say madara is more powerful than tobirama in the end

but as i`ve said we love to make suitable scenarios for our favourites to justify his victory.as it happens,tobirama has some suitable scenarios and chances for victory,no doubt about that.but in the end i see madara as superior....

Tobirama Is a formidable opponent. He has the Increible speed (FTG), incredible power (Edo tensei and suiton) and he has the intellects giving him the ability to analysis his opponent perfectly specially in a life or death situation.

I believe Feats wise, Tobirama has the versatile advantage as he can move at light speed, Can use a variety of jutsu and is able to analysis his opponent giving him the edge on madara.

The fight goes either way but Feat wise, i believe tobirama has the upper hand as he can beat madara in lots different types of situations compared to madara.

 

[shelke]

Most of this is based on speculation. Madara had reacted to Tobirama's FTG in the past as well, something he mentions during the conversation. Madara has also shown feats to react to Mabui's 'Speed of Light Teleportation' of Tsunade and Ae, whilst Muu, who is in fact one of the two best sensors in the manga couldn't evade - he evaded KCM Naruto's attack from behind, quite effortlessly.

Putting a tag on PS and then Breaching are two separate endeavours. Tobirama's Suiton is not powerful or sizable enough, given his feats, to quell Katon Extermination, that was literally around half of kilometer. Even Destruction took an unknown line of Water Guns to stop it in its tracks. Any of his attacks denting V2 and above are mere speculations.

EMS Madara beats Tobirama with his current Skill-Set, Mid Difference when Madara is having a really bad day. Great Thread though. It's well-written and thought out. I just do not agree.

 

[WolfHaley]

This Is a fantastic thread.

 

[Penguin]

How do you know his scale is greater. Also, that wasn't his tongue the "warts" are bubbles. Tongues don't shrink in size, which is what happens in that scan.

By power scaling. If Tobirama's suiton matched part one Hiruzen's and neither had a lot of chakra to work with, then they should be able to match each others Ninjutsu. So if Tobirama pressurizes a suiton of

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caliber, then it would be bigger.

That wasn't his tongue, that is actually how Kishi drew water for that chapter, but the anime and the games not to mention what you just showed (manga) it was water. Ma, is the one that focuses on tongue techniques as silly as it sounds.

It translates into fighting tongue slash. u.u

Ask Bogard. If he tells you, I bet you will listen, he has the DB. Lol

 

[RikudouMadara]

Hmm....I see...this seems to be a concluded result based on how you perceive their battle to go. Of course that's fine, and the hard work is admirable, but I disagree. Also....when Madara says there is a gulf in their skills I believe he is saying that Tobirama was quite formidable in the past, but there was a gap. And nao that gap is tremendous.... Is how I interpreted it. In the past Madara even shows to not acknowledge Tobirama as an equal, by stating Hashirama was his only contender. So with that....I feel there is no way Tobirama could be greater than Madara EMS.

You also say you're establishing why Tobirama is greater than EMS Madara, then go on to say he can rival him and face him. I agree he can face him, but I feel Tobirama would lose. I'm not saying you are wrong, as we haven't seen them fight in the past in a vs. I wholeheartedly disagree with Tobirama winning though. Madara says back then only Hashirama could compete with him upon equal grounds. Imho Tobirama is a hefty bit weaker than EMS Madara...though Tobirama still being the third strongest of their time.

This is why I believe Tobirama is not greater than EMS Madara during their time. >_O

 

[Gold Lightning]

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It was his tongue actually. Look at the *sfx* inflating and deflating. Plus it looks like the tongue had warts on it. Lol

Just watched the episode again, the scan is water.