Enduring Secret Tradition VS Enduring Bloodlines

[Lost Woods Denizen]

This is a thread that, as opposed to comparing aspects of individuals, compares the aspects of clans. To be more specific, discusses the potential suffering that each clan must endure behind the gates of their respective compounds.
There are many techniques in the ninja world, but the ones that are most praised are divided into two categories; bloodline based techniques (kekkei genkai) and secretly passed down techniques (Hiden). I believe that clans that utilize hiden techniques physically endure more than those of kekkei genkai.

Because Konoha is the best petri dish of both varieties, I would like to use only that village as a control. Let us consider the following aspects of hiden techniques and kekkei genkai.

Kekkei Genkai: those that belong to this category are essentially naturally born mutants, because the seed to activate their ability is wired into their DNA. Because of this, the maintenance necessary for such abilities is probably very low (perhaps the Hyuuga need to use special eyedrops three times a day, for example.) Also, because it is natural, the training requirements may also be very low, and often passive (and let us not forget, because it comes naturally, there is the choice to NOT use/train it.) Lastly, because it is essentially a part of their DNA, breeding requirements may not be necessarily strict because it passes on naturally. Even breeding for the sake of strengthening the bloodline may not be entirely necessary, as there are limits to how strong a technique needs to be to be effective (in the case of the Yuki clan, how much colder would you need ice to really be?) Kekkei genkai are very convenient.

Hiden: conversely, those born into a hiden clan are essentially normal people attempting to mutate their bodies unnaturally. In other words, they are trying to bring about effects that could be considered kekkei genkai SOLELY through external means. That means that there are most certainly stringent requirements necessary to first train the body for the technique, and then train the technique to adequate usability. Let us take the Aburame for example. They must turn their bodies into a hive for insects that could, without careful control, destroy their host. Also, because the technique has requirements, breeding would most certainly be important to strengthen the effectiveness of the technique in a following generation. It is the hiden users, not the kekkei genkai users, that probably inbred the most to strengthen the technique, as compatibility would play a larger role in hiden. Look at the arbitrary members of the Nara, Akimichi, and Sarutobi clan. Many display physical defects, and it is only the heads of said families that look relatively normal. And, if there is a sudden mutation in a member that allows them to use the technique, that would make it a kekkei genkai (I am sure many elemental kekkei genkai came about as a result of breeding to refine hiden techniques leading to beneficial mutations.)

I believe that hiden users endure the most for their techniques, and in particular, that it is the Akimichi and Aburame that must physically suffer the most because of their hiden techniques. If there is a different opinion I would like to know
1) which do you think suffers the most, kekkei genkai or hiden users
2) which clan do you think suffers the most
3) why do you think so ( please provide an assumed requirement based on said clan's characteristics)

What do you think?

 

[Tennis Robot]

I think that you are looking too deeply into this. There are no clear signs of the adverse effects of inbreeding on any characters in the manga.

 

[Lost Woods Denizen]

I think that you are looking too deeply into this. There are no clear signs of the adverse effects of inbreeding on any characters in the manga.

Perhaps you are focussing too much on that inbreeding statement, and not looking at the bigger question of the thread. Kekkei genkai users are born with beneficial traits, so their bodies do not require the same amount of forced alteration to use their techniques. So I ask again, who do you think suffers more for their art, kekkei genkai users or hiden jutsu users?

 

[Urda]

1. I wouldn't actually know. There were no signs of any clan suffering from their Kekkei Genkai's or Hidden Techniques.

2. Refer to number 1.

3. Refer to number 1.

 

[Lost Woods Denizen]

1. I wouldn't actually know. There were no signs of any clan suffering from their Kekkei Genkai's or Hidden Techniques.

2. Refer to number 1.

3. Refer to number 1.

You are correct in that no one was SHOWN to suffer, as they are shinobi and meant to endure, and focusing on that specifically would have been a completely different plot. I am asking for an opinion, an educated guess based on what little information that we do have. This is a theory.

For the Akimichi, they are a clan of obese humans in a profession that makes it hard to even maintain normal weight (they are able to keep up with thinner people in long distance endurance running, and I am sure that the slowest Akimichi is faster than the fastest normal human.) They also make their bodies grow to incredible sizes. Do they have to take special medicines just to take off pressure from their hearts? It is these kinds of answers that I was looking for.

So, I repeat, what is your opinion?

 

[the entire forum]

kiba's clan , suffers most.

 

[Lost Woods Denizen]

kiba's clan , suffers most.

I am curious as to why you think that? Their hiden involve training dogs, filing their teeth into fangs (I hope they are not born that way), and training their noses. Yes, they use body altering techniques to be able to effectively move on four legs, but nothing to the extent of maintaining obesity in the face of extreme endurance training like the Akimichi, or hosting potential time-bombs in their body like the Aburame. Their nose training would probably start with the identifying of things while blindfolded, and move on to moving while blindfolded (to better utilize the dynamic marking/two-headed wolf technique.)

Do you perhaps have any reason for your opinion?

 

[To Whatever]

Aburame clan have the become hosts for parasites that can kill them.

 

[Lost Woods Denizen]

Aburame clan have the become hosts for parasites that can kill them.

Yes they do, so like the Akimichi clan they are perhaps users of a variety of drugs and have very strict diets. Ironically enough, both the Akimichi and Aburame (the two clans that I believe have the most stringent requirements for their hiden jutsu) are part of the four noble houses of konoha. The other two clans are both visual kekkei genkai using clans (Uchiha and Hyuuga.) Do you think that there is a correlation?

 

[awesomeseimei]

That reminds me of a theory/headcanon I had about Torune and his nanobugs. And in my fanfic, the bugs once went unstable and nearly killed him.

Though, I suppose if one was to expand upon this whole KKG/Hiden thing, most of them would have drawbacks. For example, in real life, selective breeding may lead to weakening of health (unless health is its main purpose).

 

[Lost Woods Denizen]

That reminds me of a theory/headcanon I had about Torune and his nanobugs. And in my fanfic, the bugs once went unstable and nearly killed him.

Though, I suppose if one was to expand upon this whole KKG/Hiden thing, most of them would have drawbacks. For example, in real life, selective breeding may lead to weakening of health (unless health is its main purpose).

Thank you for your thoughts. Would I be amiss in assuming then that you also believe hiden jutsu users have more of a burden than their kekkei genkai counterparts?

Also, I disagree with your point on kekkei genkai for the fact that I believe that only the hiden jutsu users would benefit from selective breeding. Kekkei genkai users are naturally endowed with their abilities, so passing it one would not be an issue. Rather, it is hiden jutsu that may have a compatibility issue. I base this on the differences in physical features of the two. All hiden jutsu using clans have an abundance of members that look physically deformed (a good example can be found with the Nara clan users when they were shown restraining the ten tails.) On the other hand, the members of all kekkei genkai using clans look relatively normal. For example, the Uchiha clan. None of them look deformed in the slightest.

What do you think?

 

[Dantee]

It depends on the situation. Juugos clan was a kkg clan but their clan was completely wiped out by themselves becasue they couldn't control the urge to kill. aburama form a pact with the bugs and allow them to live in their bodies. Hakus clan was killed off because their ice style was revered as one of the most dangerous kkgs during the war.

 

[awesomeseimei]

Thank you for your thoughts. Would I be amiss in assuming then that you also believe hiden jutsu users have more of a burden than their kekkei genkai counterparts?

Also, I disagree with your point on kekkei genkai for the fact that I believe that only the hiden jutsu users would benefit from selective breeding. Kekkei genkai users are naturally endowed with their abilities, so passing it one would not be an issue. Rather, it is hiden jutsu that may have a compatibility issue. I base this on the differences in physical features of the two. All hiden jutsu using clans have an abundance of members that look physically deformed (a good example can be found with the Nara clan users when they were shown restraining the ten tails.) On the other hand, the members of all kekkei genkai using clans look relatively normal. For example, the Uchiha clan. None of them look deformed in the slightest.

What do you think?

To be honest, I never thought about them as "deformed", more like Kishi's weird taste for background character design (for example, just look at

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, or namely the random lizardman behind Darui, and the two tall guys). Also, I always imagined that at least some KKGs would be carried by recessive genes - there are examples in canon where only a few people in the clan have "working" KKG (like Kimimaro). So, in theory, some clans who'd want more KKG users would need selective breeding.

For Hiden users, we don't know what conditions there were for one to be compatible. Kishi doesn't think much of genetics, obviously, and from what we see in-canon, it seems as if clan affinities and traits (like Yamanaka being sensors, or Nara having black hair, or Akimichi being fat) are indeed dominant. I doubt we'd ever see an Aburame member who'd have trouble adapting to bugs. Again, if I were to write an in-depth fanfic about it, I'd definitely go into detail about any possible inheritance and compatibility issues since I find this topic interesting.

I believe that we can't generalize them - yes, the Aburame members probably have it the worst, but there are plenty of relatively harmless Hiden jutsu as well. Besides, canonically, they can be technically taught to anyone (wasn't Hiruzen confirmed to know all of them or so?).

 

[Lost Woods Denizen]

It depends on the situation. Juugos clan was a kkg clan but their clan was completely wiped out by themselves becasue they couldn't control the urge to kill. aburama form a pact with the bugs and allow them to live in their bodies. Hakus clan was killed off because their ice style was revered as one of the most dangerous kkgs during the war.

The situation I am talking about is not the effects that they have on society, but the physical burdens that they potentially place on the body just to be able to use them.

Hiden users are essentially forcing their bodies to do things that they were not originally meant to do (expand to great sizes, send your consciousness into strangers, run on four legs, etc.) whereas a kekkei genkai users abilities are simply a matter of realizing their genetics. This is why the methods for doing them are kept secret, and are most likely rather taxing physically. I am sure that highly specialized diets, specific body modifications from childhood, and carefully arranged marriages were necessary in the past to even create hiden jutsu. What do you think?

 

[the entire forum]

I am curious as to why you think that? Their hiden involve training dogs, filing their teeth into fangs (I hope they are not born that way), and training their noses. Yes, they use body altering techniques to be able to effectively move on four legs, but nothing to the extent of maintaining obesity in the face of extreme endurance training like the Akimichi, or hosting potential time-bombs in their body like the Aburame. Their nose training would probably start with the identifying of things while blindfolded, and move on to moving while blindfolded (to better utilize the dynamic marking/two-headed wolf technique.)

Do you perhaps have any reason for your opinion?

they smells like dog, and grows up with dog...

 

[Lost Woods Denizen]

To be honest, I never thought about them as "deformed", more like Kishi's weird taste for background character design (for example, just look at

You must be registered for see links

, or namely the random lizardman behind Darui, and the two tall guys). Also, I always imagined that at least some KKGs would be carried by recessive genes - there are examples in canon where only a few people in the clan have "working" KKG (like Kimimaro). So, in theory, some clans who'd want more KKG users would need selective breeding.

For Hiden users, we don't know what conditions there were for one to be compatible. Kishi doesn't think much of genetics, obviously, and from what we see in-canon, it seems as if clan affinities and traits (like Yamanaka being sensors, or Nara having black hair, or Akimichi being fat) are indeed dominant. I doubt we'd ever see an Aburame member who'd have trouble adapting to bugs. Again, if I were to write an in-depth fanfic about it, I'd definitely go into detail about any possible inheritance and compatibility issues since I find this topic interesting.

I believe that we can't generalize them - yes, the Aburame members probably have it the worst, but there are plenty of relatively harmless Hiden jutsu as well. Besides, canonically, they can be technically taught to anyone (wasn't Hiruzen confirmed to know all of them or so?).

Yes, there are traits now, but those probably came from many generations of trial and error. Maybe initially the Yamanaka hiden jutsu started off as a jutsu that worked at very close range and only lasted for a moment, making it only truly beneficial in throwing off an enemy mid-swing of a weapon. The head of the family marries a close relative and this results in a child that can project farther and for longer. This repeats until present day where the shintenshin jutsu is a very versatile technique. On the other hand, neither the sharingan or the byakugan have not changed for over 1000 years.

I agree that the reptilian looking man behind Darui may have had a hiden or kekkei genkai, but for the sake of control (clans that we know enough about that we can make educated assumptions) I am sticking with only the leaf village for their hiden.

Hiden jutsu users had more hurdles to overcome to get to their present day effectiveness than kekkei genkai users. Do you disagree?

 

[Lost Woods Denizen]

they smells like dog, and grows up with dog...

Though the smell may socially hinder them, physically it doesn't really have an effect. Kiba's clan probably had the least issues in discovering, developing, and passing down their hiden jutsu. Increasingly difficult blindfolded smell/taste tests, diets that promote cartilage growth and flexibility (particularly in the hips and spine), and filed teeth. Everything else included special canine training methods.

 

[Dantee]

The situation I am talking about is not the effects that they have on society, but the physical burdens that they potentially place on the body just to be able to use them.

Hiden users are essentially forcing their bodies to do things that they were not originally meant to do (expand to great sizes, send your consciousness into strangers, run on four legs, etc.) whereas a kekkei genkai users abilities are simply a matter of realizing their genetics. This is why the methods for doing them are kept secret, and are most likely rather taxing physically. I am sure that highly specialized diets, specific body modifications from childhood, and carefully arranged marriages were necessary in the past to even create hiden jutsu. What do you think?

You are absolutely right in my opinion. They probably also commit incest because who else but someone of your own kin would understand their reasoning.

 

[jiraiya nindo]

That's counter to everything we've seen so far in the manga. Those with kekkei genkai are usually so proud of this feat that they maintain strict training and exclusive physical regimes to protect their techniques.

Also, clans with kekkei genkai tend to be wiped out and destroyed by clans without it because the world at large is so afraid of their abilities.

So, I don't think it makes them weaker than clans with hiden techniques. It makes them stronger and more likely to be hated and discriminated against.

 

[awesomeseimei]

Yes, there are traits now, but those probably came from many generations of trial and error. Maybe initially the Yamanaka hiden jutsu started off as a jutsu that worked at very close range and only lasted for a moment, making it only truly beneficial in throwing off an enemy mid-swing of a weapon. The head of the family marries a close relative and this results in a child that can project farther and for longer. This repeats until present day where the shintenshin jutsu is a very versatile technique.

I believe that, if this was indeed the case, it would involve mostly training and refining it through studying rather than genetics. However, traits like sensory abilities and the affinity for mind-related skills are more likely to be genetic. It is indeed an interesting question Kishi never answered. In my fanfic, there is actually a case of a Yamanaka man marrying his distant cousin precisely for her unique genetics to produce a heir who would have them as well. But we must keep in mind that the actual Hiden jutsu, as per canon, do not have strict genetic requirements, instead relying on teaching.

Hiden jutsu users had more hurdles to overcome to get to their present day effectiveness than kekkei genkai users.

When you put it like that, yes, I agree. Hiden jutsu must have taken more to refine, but it wasn't necessarily a compatibility issue - rather, some of them could have been hard to perfect.