Enduring Secret Tradition VS Enduring Bloodlines

[Lost Woods Denizen]

That's counter to everything we've seen so far in the manga. Those with kekkei genkai are usually so proud of this feat that they maintain strict training and exclusive physical regimes to protect their techniques.

Also, clans with kekkei genkai tend to be wiped out and destroyed by clans without it because the world at large is so afraid of their abilities.

So, I don't think it makes them weaker than clans with hiden techniques. It makes them stronger and more likely to be hated and discriminated against.

I am not trying to discuss whether one group is stronger than the other. In fact, I believe that those with kekkei genkai are stronger for the fact that it is in their blood to have very specific, and usually very powerful abilities.

Rather, I am discussing which group would potentially have a harder time training their bodies for their abilities. In this case, I believe that hiden jutsu users have more hurdles. Yes, those with kekkei genkai also train their traits, but that is just it. All they have to do is train them. Those with hiden jutsu have to make their bodies suitable to use their techniques, and only then can the training begin.

It is written in the genetic code for an Uchiha to unlock the sharingan. This fact does not change whether they are actually able to unlock it or not. It is NOT in the Akimichi genetic code to be able to release insects from their bodies, nor is it in the Inuzuka genetic code to be able to smell well enough to track a target blinded. Their bodies must be prepped before they can utilize these techniques, and I am sure the means are highly demanding. Kekkei genkai users also do not have to protect their techniques in as much as they must protect their body parts.

I hope you understand what I am trying to say, despite my apparent inability to explain it well.

 

[Lost Woods Denizen]

I believe that, if this was indeed the case, it would involve mostly training and refining it through studying rather than genetics. However, traits like sensory abilities and the affinity for mind-related skills are more likely to be genetic. It is indeed an interesting question Kishi never answered. In my fanfic, there is actually a case of a Yamanaka man marrying his distant cousin precisely for her unique genetics to produce a heir who would have them as well. But we must keep in mind that the actual Hiden jutsu, as per canon, do not have strict genetic requirements, instead relying on teaching.



When you put it like that, yes, I agree. Hiden jutsu must have taken more to refine, but it wasn't necessarily a compatibility issue - rather, some of them could have been hard to perfect.

Yes, some of them would have been harder to perfect because the requirements for them are so stringent.

I will return to my example of the Akimichi. They have body types that from the beginning do not match their professions. They are able to maintain an obese state despite performing tasks on regular basis that should have them slim (lots of aerobic activities that ninja perform.) We were also shown that they have developed medicines that increase their chakra, and slim them down again. I propose that the Akimichi are therefore forced to be gluttons just to maintain their large sizes, and have perfected medicines that assist in this. They would also need physical regimens that help their hearts adjust to the constant growth and shrinkage. This sounds like a lot of extra work than, say, feeling a certain emotion and gaining "eyes that reflect the heart." Would you agree with this?

 

[senjusana]

Uzumaki clan had been very talented with strong life force and had secret sealing jutsus which cost them their life.

 

[awesomeseimei]

I will return to my example of the Akimichi. They have body types that from the beginning do not match their professions. They are able to maintain an obese state despite performing tasks on regular basis that should have them slim (lots of aerobic activities that ninja perform.) We were also shown that they have developed medicines that increase their chakra, and slim them down again. I propose that the Akimichi are therefore forced to be gluttons just to maintain their large sizes, and have perfected medicines that assist in this. They would also need physical regimens that help their hearts adjust to the constant growth and shrinkage. This sounds like a lot of extra work than, say, feeling a certain emotion and gaining "eyes that reflect the heart." Would you agree with this?

From the way it looks like in canon, they are pretty much naturally gluttons - I guess they have special metabolism which is also inherited. But their kids then have to train to actually use it properly. Again, we see Torune being unable to control his insects as a child (it was filler, but the Databook referred to that episode as well), but then he learned to do it properly (somehow, presumably on his own).

Though, it's not like having a KKG makes you automatically good at using it. In fact, in theory, it can be a physical burden as well. So like I said before, we can't really generalize, as it is pretty individual; however we can agree that Hiden jutsu historically required more work from those who used them.

 

[Lost Woods Denizen]

Uzumaki clan had been very talented with strong life force and had secret sealing jutsus which cost them their life.

Yes, others attack certain clans for because of their techniques. However, what I am trying to argue for is not what their techniques cause OTHERS to do to them, but rather what they have to do to THEMSELVES in order to have these techniques in the first place.

I hope that this makes my thread easier to understand.

 

[senjusana]

Yes, others attack certain clans for because of their techniques. However, what I am trying to argue for is not what their techniques cause OTHERS to do to them, but rather what they have to do to THEMSELVES in order to have these techniques in the first place.

I hope that this makes my thread easier to understand.

Now I get your point OP.

Uzumaki clan has been hiding all their jutsus so that they are not misused and Hyuuga clan separating main and branch clan to make sure the right person get the power. In order for that to happen, they put cage bird seal for the branch clan which causes them a lot of pain. Enduring secret tradition is indeed difficult.

 

[Lost Woods Denizen]

From the way it looks like in canon, they are pretty much naturally gluttons - I guess they have special metabolism which is also inherited. But their kids then have to train to actually use it properly. Again, we see Torune being unable to control his insects as a child (it was filler, but the Databook referred to that episode as well), but then he learned to do it properly (somehow, presumably on his own).

Though, it's not like having a KKG makes you automatically good at using it. In fact, in theory, it can be a physical burden as well. So like I said before, we can't really generalize, as it is pretty individual; however we can agree that Hiden jutsu historically required more work from those who used them.

Torune being unable to control his insects is another struggle of the hiden jutsu, because he was not BORN with them in him. There is no genetic code that makes insects spontaneously spawn from your body (if there was, it would fall into the kekkei genkai category.)

I agree, having the kekkei genkai does not mean that you are automatically good at using it, but this does not take away from the fact that it is naturally in their blood to be able to awaken the ability in the first place, something that cannot be said for hiden jutsu users.

I cannot think of a single kekkei genkai that can be considered a physical burden to activate techniques. The mangekyou sharingan, perhaps the go-to example, also does not cause a physical burden to activate. Rather the burden comes after being able to use it (loss of sight). I am arguing for the burden of actually being able to use a technique IN THE FIRST PLACE.

Does this make my argument clearer?

 

[Lost Woods Denizen]

Now I get your point OP.

Uzumaki clan has been hiding all their jutsus so that they are not misused and Hyuuga clan separating main and branch clan to make sure the right person get the power. In order for that to happen, they put cage bird seal for the branch clan which causes them a lot of pain. Enduring secret tradition is indeed difficult.

If you agree that hiden jutsu users have more hurdles to overcome even to be able to START using their techniques, then we have come to terms. Now that we have figured out your answer to which group (kekkei genkai or hiden jutsu) have to endure more, I would like to ask a followup question: which hiden jutsu clan, based solely on what their hiden jutsu do, do you think has to endure the most difficulty to begin technique usage?

 

[senjusana]

If you agree that hiden jutsu users have more hurdles to overcome even to be able to START using their techniques, then we have come to terms. Now that we have figured out your answer to which group (kekkei genkai or hiden jutsu) have to endure more, I would like to ask a followup question: which hiden jutsu clan, based solely on what their hiden jutsu do, do you think has to endure the most difficulty to begin technique usage?

Can you give me an example to choose from?

 

[Lost Woods Denizen]

Can you give me an example to choose from?

The OP included specifically any of the konoha hiden clans (Akimichi, Aburame, Inuzuka, Nara, Yamanaka, Sarutobi), but in general hiden jutsu users from any village is OK.

 

[senjusana]

The OP included specifically any of the konoha hiden clans (Akimichi, Aburame, Inuzuka, Nara, Yamanaka, Sarutobi), but in general hiden jutsu users from any village is OK.

I guess the Aburame clan, since they are the host for bugs. Sometimes not maintaining the bugs at proper conditions may even kill the user. This was told by Shino somewhere in the manga.

 

[Lost Woods Denizen]

I guess the Aburame clan, since they are the host for bugs. Sometimes not maintaining the bugs at proper conditions may even kill the user. This was told by Shino somewhere in the manga.

I agree with this, thank you for your opinion.

 

[senjusana]

I agree with this, thank you for your opinion.

Don't mention.
If you don't mind, I would like to give my opinion on another clan.
Yamanaka clan uses mind justus. Sometimes over exhausting the mind can cause severe damage to the neurons. Since mind is something delicate, while interrogating or collecting Intel by forcefully entering another shinobi mind is also difficult. Maybe seeing the painful memory of another person can cause some emotional trauma to the justu user.

 

[awesomeseimei]

Torune being unable to control his insects is another struggle of the hiden jutsu, because he was not BORN with them in him. There is no genetic code that makes insects spontaneously spawn from your body (if there was, it would fall into the kekkei genkai category.)

I agree, having the kekkei genkai does not mean that you are automatically good at using it, but this does not take away from the fact that it is naturally in their blood to be able to awaken the ability in the first place, something that cannot be said for hiden jutsu users.

I cannot think of a single kekkei genkai that can be considered a physical burden to activate techniques. The mangekyou sharingan, perhaps the go-to example, also does not cause a physical burden to activate. Rather the burden comes after being able to use it (loss of sight). I am arguing for the burden of actually being able to use a technique IN THE FIRST PLACE.

Does this make my argument clearer?

Well, sure, when it comes to obtaining said ability, it takes more work for Hiden users. However, in case of Aburame members, they get insects from childhood. While there might be a possibility of having them backfire on them (like I said, I even used this in my fanfic; although it's not supported by canon), they still get them from their parents/clansmen, and have to train to use them properly. In a way, their Hiden is somewhat KKG-like.

And I get your points, I'm just trying to explore the topic more, since, like I said, it interests me, since I'm generally interested in genetics, and Kishi did not show all that in depth. I've already gone through the specifics of Yamanaka Hiden jutsu in my headcanon as well, including their possible problems with them.

What do you think could work as a real-life analogue of KKG and Hiden?

 

[Lost Woods Denizen]

Don't mention.
If you don't mind, I would like to give my opinion on another clan.
Yamanaka clan uses mind justus. Sometimes over exhausting the mind can cause severe damage to the neurons. Since mind is something delicate, while interrogating or collecting Intel by forcefully entering another shinobi mind is also difficult. Maybe seeing the painful memory of another person can cause some emotional trauma to the justu user.

Yes, this is true, but the fact that said Yamanaka used the jutsu in the FIRST place means that they have already undertaken the necessary body augmentation to use their hiden jutsu. Let us go further back and makes assumptions about what said augmentation would require.

Because the Yamanaka jutsu centers on transferring their spiritual energy and consciousness into a target's body, overriding it. What would be necessary to do such a feat? The Yamanaka hiden training probably begins with channeling their chakra into small creatures, but due to the difficulty of doing such a feat on the first try, said creature is probably drug induced to make its mind easier to enter. No extra specific diet is probably necessary, as their body itself undergoes no changes, but I am sure pain relief medicine for headaches is a must. Besides this a battery of emotional, psychological and neurological tests are probably administered constantly.

What do you think?

 

[Lost Woods Denizen]

Well, sure, when it comes to obtaining said ability, it takes more work for Hiden users. However, in case of Aburame members, they get insects from childhood. While there might be a possibility of having them backfire on them (like I said, I even used this in my fanfic; although it's not supported by canon), they still get them from their parents/clansmen, and have to train to use them properly. In a way, their Hiden is somewhat KKG-like.

And I get your points, I'm just trying to explore the topic more, since, like I said, it interests me, since I'm generally interested in genetics, and Kishi did not show all that in depth. I've already gone through the specifics of Yamanaka Hiden jutsu in my headcanon as well, including their possible problems with them.

What do you think could work as a real-life analogue of KKG and Hiden?

A real life analogue of kekkei genkai and hiden jutsu? That is difficult, as most mutated physical traits in the real world are not necessarily beneficial. That is the appeal of kekkei genkai I suppose, the fact that they are mutations that are so beneficial. As for hiden, anything that can be taught in secret and not shared with the rest of the world can be considered hiden. For example, the very first ventriloquist, or maybe even the very first person to discover contortionist techniques. Would you know how to get that flexible without anyone ever teaching you?

 

[senjusana]

Yes, this is true, but the fact that said Yamanaka used the jutsu in the FIRST place means that they have already undertaken the necessary body augmentation to use their hiden jutsu. Let us go further back and makes assumptions about what said augmentation would require.

Because the Yamanaka jutsu centers on transferring their spiritual energy and consciousness into a target's body, overriding it. What would be necessary to do such a feat? The Yamanaka hiden training probably begins with channeling their chakra into small creatures, but due to the difficulty of doing such a feat on the first try, said creature is probably drug induced to make its mind easier to enter. No extra specific diet is probably necessary, as their body itself undergoes no changes, but I am sure pain relief medicine for headaches is a must. Besides this a battery of emotional, psychological and neurological tests are probably administered constantly.

What do you think?

True. They may even take some special diet and exercises to keep their mind sane. Just because a person is born into a clan, doesn't mean his/her body would automatically adjust to the training. Several precautions needed to be taken. Also if you had observed, during the Fourth war Inoichi overused his jutsus limit and blood started oozing out.
Even you can see mg avatar were Ino's nerve cells are projected due to her concentration.

 

[Lost Woods Denizen]

True. They may even take some special diet and exercises to keep their mind sane. Just because a person is born into a clan, doesn't mean his/her body would automatically adjust to the training. Several precautions needed to be taken. Also if you had observed, during the Fourth war Inoichi overused his jutsus limit and blood started oozing out.
Even you can see mg avatar were Ino's nerve cells are projected due to her concentration.

Inoichi was a good example to use, because we later see Ino performing the same jutsu without protective headgear, and not bleeding from her nose. Yes, the range that Inoichi performed over was greater than Ino, but his additional headgear and machinery should have served to make the feats comparable. This may be the case of the Yamanaka hiden jutsu having gotten stronger because of the right combination of parents, new breakthroughs in training regimen by the time she was born, and her overall life experiences.

What do you think?