Ending the Senju/Uchiha debate

[KiriyuSenju]

Quite wrong indeed, the only Uchiha's known to be power hungry was Izuna, Madara, Sasuke and Tobi. Shisui and Itachi was simply talented and thus becoming strong. There is no reference to any other then the 4 uchiha's [ Izuna, Madara, Sasuke and Tobi.] being power hungry. So saying "but pretty much of them are that." Is wrong and you are thus putting them all in the same boat. If you concentrate on a tree you will not see the forest behind it. Open your eyes for facts.

 

[Onion Soda]

Quite wrong indeed, the only Uchiha's known to be power hungry was Izuna, Madara, Sasuke and Tobi. Shisui and Itachi was simply talented and thus becoming strong. There is no reference to any other then the 4 uchiha's [ Izuna, Madara, Sasuke and Tobi.] being power hungry. So saying "but pretty much of them are that." Is wrong and you are thus putting them all in the same boat. If you concentrate on a tree you will not see the forest behind it. Open your eyes for facts.

Fugasaku and his followers (they weren't a few)...

 

[KiriyuSenju]

They believed that the village discriminated the Uchiha clan from goverment affairs. They were wrong informed and thus planing to defend themself and do something about it. Does not make them power hungry.

 

[Onion Soda]

They believed that the village discriminated the Uchiha clan from goverment affairs. They were wrong informed and thus planing to defend themself and do something about it. Does not make them power hungry.

They still had better ways than a Coup D'(Whatever), they didn't want them that's why itachi became sick of his clan; they were declining in power-capability so they seek for a shorcut to it. If they were some trees and not a forest as you say, Itachi only would need to wipe out his father and take his place (cut the head, kill the snake).
They were manipulated by the legacy of Madara, the elder son, the curse of hatred, danzo+ the elders and Tobi, not by the senju.
If Senju were to dispatch the Uchihas when Hashirama defeated Madara was the right moment (you know, Uchiha's without leader, senju with his leader alive + controlling the kyubi and other tailed beast) but they didn't do it.

 

[KiriyuSenju]

Do not get off the topic as i said nothing about senju in my last arguement. The Uchiha's did have better ways to deal with it. But when a snake is threatened it bites. It would be hard for the village to deal with them if that happened which is why Itachi was ordered by the elders to deal with them. We were talking about Fugaku and his followers being evil? Itachi did not kill only his followers but was ordered to kill every single Uchiha including the elderly and the children. They could have dealt with the problem in a better way. They could have done so diplomatic or in a protest but they choose the most effectiv way in their own eyes. Does not make them evil it makes them confused and angered. Anyone can make mistakes and allso it has to do with their ideology.

 

[Onion Soda]

Do not get off the topic as i said nothing about senju in my last arguement. The Uchiha's did have better ways to deal with it. But when a snake is threatened it bites. It would be hard for the village to deal with them if that happened which is why Itachi was ordered by the elders to deal with them. We were talking about Fugaku and his followers being evil? Itachi did not kill only his followers but was ordered to kill every single Uchiha including the elderly and the children. They could have dealt with the problem in a better way. They could have done so diplomatic or in a protest but they choose the most effectiv way in their own eyes. Does not make them evil it makes them confused and angered. Anyone can make mistakes and allso it has to do with their ideology.

I am counter-arguing the thread maker, not only you. I never say they were evil, juts power-hungry don't get it wrong, I don't believe in good or evil in real life nor in any anime, manga, book, movie, etc.
Yes, itachi was ordered to slaughter them, but if you take a second look you'll see that Itachi searched for another way but the people in the clan was stubborn.
You may see this, when I say followers, I say the entire clan (except Shisui). Why? cuz if the entire clan wasn't conspirating Itachi should only need to kill his father and take control over it, instead of killing them all.
They choose the Coup thing thanks to the blinding proud they had "The legendary Uchihas, the most powerfull clan ever existed".
I repeat, I never say they were evil, just wrong thanks to the legacy of Madara, etc.

 

[HighDef]

Neither Madara nor Sasuke are evil because of the events that made them to do what they did? Really?

Let's all be sympathetic and forgive people like murderers in our court systems because of their troubled past then.

 

[Blaze Release]

Neither Madara nor Sasuke are evil because of the events that made them to do what they did? Really?

Let's all be sympathetic and forgive people like murderers in our court systems because of their troubled past then.

Murderers?. That would apply to everyone in naruto then xd

 

[KiriyuSenju]

At that arguement i agree. Tho i would say not all of them were followers of Fugaku and the "We are the most powerful clan" . We only know there were many. The burden Itachi had upon his shoulder's did make him frustrated. I doubt the children nor the eldery would oppose with any danger towards the village, but they still died. I may have a different point of view on the matters as i see the coup only as they wanted to restore balance themself on a none ethical manner tho it was clearly very wrong. And im quite sure they were overly confused for their own good. No one is even sure if Tobi had a matter at that aswell. What i know is that he was present at that night when Itachi did kill the clan. Maybe he had created the whole situation. Of course that part is just a assumption on my side but i felt it would be wrong to not share it.

 

[DoMiNiCaN tAiLeD bEaSt]

Re: Ending the Senju/Uchiha debate

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-As for another kinjustu that's worse than IWR, Living Corpse Reincarnation is just as bad if not worse
-Another justu I would like to add (although it's not Kinjutsu) is Tsukuyomi. Psychological torture for that perceived amount of time is pretty evil
-As for your post in general, I agree with you in the fact that the Uchiha are not an evil people, they were subject to the discrimination by the Senju. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I'm getting the feeling that you are saying that the Senju are really the evil ones. While your post makes me agree with you to an extent, I will not judge the entire Senju clan by the actions of two of their members. We only know of 2 (maybe 4) of the Senju, and it's hard to truly judge their feelings of the Uchiha by the First and Second Hokage's actions alone

 

[KiriyuSenju]

You clearly did not read my previous posts. I suggest you do so before posting this. Because the same subject of discussion will start again and again. If this so continues.

 

[HighDef]

Murderers?. That would apply to everyone in naruto then xd

That's why I said in our court systems, as in reality.

You can cut the cake anyway you want, but it still doesn't change the fact that both Sasuke and Madara are as evil as evil could get. One tried to attack Konoha with the Nine Tailed Fox and the other wants to destroy the same village.

 

[destined 2 win]

Its about time this discussion gets put to rest. Its almost as if people cannot read, refuse to read and instead just look at the manga pics or are just plain ignorant. Either way ill enlighten you'll; the facts about the Uchiha and the Senju.

Now i keep hearing people saying that the uchiha were evil and the senju were good. Allow me annihilate that myth.

From what we know the senju offered the uchiha a peace treaty and the uchiha accpeted because they also wanted peace;

Spoiler

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From what we know the uchiha accepted hashirama the senju leader as the first hokage instead of their own leader madara;

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The uchiha turned their back on madara *(their leader) because they wanted peace;

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They started despise him due to his power hungry and war ways. Madara translanted this as them betraying him;

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So from what we know so far the uchiha also wanted peace and accepted the senju leader hashirama as the leader of the village over their own leader and later despised their leader as a power hungry war lover.

The second hokage trying to play nice and giving the uchiha a 'special' role;

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But this was the truth behind the so called special role;

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The uchiha were blamed/suspected of the fox's attack. This shows that whilst the uchiha had complete faith in the senju and accepted their leader as the hokage, the senju on the otherhand didnt trust the uchiha;

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They were further pushed into isolation;

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So from what we know the uchiha accepted the senju peace treaty because they always wanted peace. The stood behind the senju leader and cast away their own leader because they believe he was a power hungry war lover. It seems like whilst the uchiha fully trusted the senju, the senju didnt as tobirama has showed us with his so called special role and as the elders has shown us. They have been further isolated. From what we know which clan seem like the victims?.

The A coup D'etat was bound to happen sooner or later. Just imagine this in real life or relate it to history where a group of people have been discriminated for so long. They are eventually bound to respond. The fact that the uchiha have waited so long to finally respond says shows that they of all people have patience

Spoiler

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They took advantage of 12 year old due to his trauma;

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They abused his love for the village;

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And ordered him to wipe out his clan. His clan that had the right to finally stand up for themselves;

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Now that the Uchiha has had enough and have decided to stand up for themselves, now sarutobi wants to sort things out (not his fault though, be he is still the hokage he shouldve done something before all this);

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He was given the orders to kill everyone uchiha (who had the right to demand justice), but he couldnt kill sasuke;

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The only conciliation sarutobi could do was to protect sasuke from the elders, especially danzou;

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So tell me which clan seem victims. From what ive read it seems like the senju tricked the uhciha, this is debeatable though. From what ive seen its seems like they used the peace treaty as a strategy to form an alliance wit the uchiha to later slowly kill them off. When an uchiha (madara) saw what was happening the uchiha already trusted this peace treaty. When madara attacked and the 2nd hokage saw that they might be similar people following madara's footsteps he used a wise stragety with the special role nonsense.

How can Kushina say she was chosen to become a jinchurcki. How come she doesnt have a choice;

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Senju taking advantage of the uzumaki clan;

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Once naruto heard the truth, even he got worked up. Basically because they used his mother, similarly to the way itachi was used and abused (A hero was instead put into the bingo book to kill when encountered);

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So now they have taken advantage of the uchiha and uzumaki.

This is where you learn exactly what i mean. We all know about edo tensei.
In order to use it you have to use LIVE human beings as sacrifices. Now the second hokage Tobirama created such a technique. He mustve used live human beings either from the village, war prisoners. Either in order to create such a technique you have to have experimented;

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Even madara who has been considered evil frowned up such a technique;

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Seems like even a power hungry madara knew the limits, yet tobirama didnt and created such a kinjutsu (forbidden technique). I challenge you to name me a kinjutsu that is on par with edo tensei in terms of how evil and atrocious it is. What poeple dont understand is that the only true 'evil' uchiha's we know are madara and sasuke and in either case their arent evil.

Its this same technique that brought the downfall of sarutobi. This same technique that is currently being used by the opposition. Its this same technique that has brought fought an upgraded madara

Madara you might question him idea of peace, but in either case he seems to want peace. In sasuke's case, its due to a chain of events which caused him to become like this. His hate is stemmed from what the senju did. If the senju from the beginning had treated the uchiha fairly they wouldnt have tried to take over the village, therefore itachi's mission would also non-existent

i think tobi=blaze release beacuse everything that you have mentioned is based on fact + fake notes. and u are twisting it to make your argument appropriate.

1.uchihaa drew the first blood by planning to coup de feat hence they were ligitimately punished.:flaw:

2.tobi is a liar,he is a faker , he is nobody and since tobi pretended to be madara hence every thing he mentioned about madara is false and crafted:flaw:.

3.all uchihaa may not be bad but doing a coup de feat against their village is a crime and they were treated as their deeds by a similar psycho phinatic .ie danzo. so bad person terminated bad people.

4.edo tensei was developed by tobirama as a war weapon , during those days of war, fights it was a very powerful jutsu to fight opponent countries but tobirama felt the evil nature of this jutus hence he never used this jutus and left that jutsu incomplete and termed it kinjutus.

5.9 tail fox needed to be contained hence leaf village has no other choise but use kushina to contian it otherwise 9 tail fox would have caused havoc and millions of death.

6.i have read your post but i dont see any manga page in which uchihaa were supressed or dominated by senju. only uchihaa's planning to capture konoha by force is mentioned.
for eg. tobi wanted to fulfill his evil plans and caused havoc in village by summoning 9 tails.
madara/tobi killing his whole clan for even sinister casue. hence madara/tobi >>>>>>>>>>>>>> evil than tobirama.:flaw:

7.all uchihaa were given equal oppurtunity.
itachi =head of anbu clan
kagami, obito,sasuke,shisui are all group of elite ninja with no discrimination at all.

8. famous saying. '" dont ask what your country can do for you, ask what u can do for your country. " and as i see uchihaa only drew the bad blood.

so uchihaa's are more evil than senju.:no_ignore:

 

[destined 2 win]

madara uchihaa is more sinister than tobirama:flaw:

1.madara uchihaa could share his eyes with his brother but he was so powerlust that he only seized his brother's m.s eyes but didnt gave his brother his eyes. eyes sharing is legimately possible.:flaw:

2. madara uchihaa after truce with senju could have easily served under the nation and its popular hokage i.e hashirama yet he always tried to seize power , and kept on fighting senju leadership .he is greedy and selfish

3.using meteorite techinique and kill whole 4th division of konoha . i.e killing his own country men is even more audacious and sinister action and he was laughing and smiling after the deaths of million of peoples. and mentioning it has been a long times since i caused this much disaster shows how sinister his motives are.:flaw:\

4. he betrayed onoki and iwakaguri and led them to war with konoha . i.e his own village proves he was power thirsty and evil.:flaw:

5.even before his death madara was making evil plans to conquere the world which proves he is evil from heart.

6. finally madara/tobi himself killed the whole uchihaa clan for apparently no clear reason what so ever hence it breaches the pinnacle of evilness.

 

[Blaze Release]

That's why I said in our court systems, as in reality.

You can cut the cake anyway you want, but it still doesn't change the fact that both Sasuke and Madara are as evil as evil could get. One tried to attack Konoha with the Nine Tailed Fox and the other wants to destroy the same village.

As evil as evil can get?.
Are we forgetting oro/kabuto, zabuza, sasori,hidan, kakuzu.

I'll give you madara attacking the village because it was for the wrong reasons. Sasuke hasnt attacked it yet

 

[destined 2 win]

how on tobirama is evil i dont see it.

# tobirama senju sacrifiesed his life when he himself became decoy to protect his 3 students.

# tobirama senju signed peace treaty Kumogakure and Konohagakure;

# tobirama senju definately created edo tensei but soon abondend this technique whereas if madara had developed this technique then he would have killed 10000's of his peoples and made them their puppies and try to be invincible but not tobirama

# tobirama preched about love , peace and brotherhood . even sarutobi ackwnolege their ideology of peace,love and brotherhood. while madara is brother's eye stealer,hater , war junkie .

 

[Shisui Namikaze]

The senju never tried to kill off the Uchihas. It was because of madara a man that wanted revenge on his own clan the senju and all of konoha that the senju began to take action on the Uchiha. Don't blame it on the senju. Madara was just smart enough to turn the clans on each other once again.

 

[Blaze Release]

Spoiler

Firstly, what a disingenuous title. Anyone could see that something like this could never end that debate, not in a million years.

Secondly, moving on to the actual arguments (if you can even call them that).



Good and evil are subjective, ergo, annihilation is not possible.



This is correct.



This is also correct.



This is probably also true.



Right.



So far you have done nothing but stating the obvious.



Are you claiming the Uchiha wouldn't have done the same in that position? These two clans have been bitter rivals for decades. Even when they formed the village there was a battle over which clan would hold the Hokage position. Do you honestly think it's evil for the reigning clan to keep an eye on the other one? No, it's being cautious. You can't expect the Senju to just say, "Hey, I know we've waged war against each other for years, PLUS your leader betrayed the entire village, but we're gonna grant you complete freedom now!" That would've been an incredibly dumb move. Also, you act as if they were completely isolated, but they weren't. They were simply moved to a place where they could be monitored easier.

Secondly, no, the Uchiha most definitely did not fully trust the Senju. Claiming so is ignorant. The reason why they submitted to the Senju was because they were tired of the fighting. Not because they suddenly completely trusted them. Who would in their right mind trust a clan they've fought with for decades? That would be uncharacteristically naive of the Uchiha to do.



No, they simply hadn't completely figured it out yet. Oh, so it's evil to monitor a clan, but it's not evil to overthrow a government and kill the other clan? Get your priorities straight. The Senjus shouldn't have gone as far as they did, but that does not warrant a coup d'etat. Sorry, that's the harsh reality. The Third tried to negotiate, but they didn't listen, and that's all on them. You can't blame the Senju for that.



What are you talking about? Neither the Third Hokage nor the Senju clan did any of that. It's clearly stated in the wiki that Hiruzen's advisers and Danzo ordered it. The Senju clan had no part in this.



That is the most ridiculous thing I read and you base it off absolutely NOTHING. It's pure speculation, nothing in the manga hints at this at all. You might get that idea by how Tobi is telling the story, but you cannot trust everything Tobi says. It's obvious when he told the story he was manipulating Sasuke. Bringing that forth at evidence is ludicrous.



It isn't "nonsense". It was a sign of good will.



No, they haven't. Did it ever occur to you that maybe, I don't know, the Uzumaki clan agreed to this? Did you ever wonder why? Their sealing jutsu would come especially in handy, plus they were known for living incredibly long lives and having strong chakra. They had MUCH better odds at sealing and keeping Kurama sealed than any other random ninja. It was a necessity. What's the alternative? Do you suggest that instead they let the fox roam free and destroy everything? How naive.



So because of what one man did, you decide to declare an entire clan as evil? Not only is that ridiculous, it is disingenuous. That would be like me, saying, "Oh look. Madara is an evil bastard, therefore every other Uchiha is as well!"

So far all you did was... well, state the obvious and make baseless claims and speculate.

Sir, I'm not convinced.


Neither the Senju clan nor the Uchiha clan is evil. Individuals, yes, but entire clans? No.

I was beginning to think you did not understand the point of the thread, until i read the highlighted part in your post

 

[Sagemodelimiter]

Tobi stated while acting as Madara that their is a chain that made the two combatants good and evil as was the sons of so6p, Sauske and Naruto also show this trait the only thing that is dictated by this is that their will be one truly power hungry Uchia and one Loving Senju, this doesnt mean that their wont be a good sharingan user (Itachi, Kakashi, Obito, even Danzo to a point) or a bad senju user, unfortunatley their hasnt been a truly evil Senju user to this point so i dont have an example. (getting the technique through blood transfusion doesnt count in my book as to dictate their attitude, but while they have the sharingan they see things differently as Stated by Tobi.)

 

[drslim]

What is true is that the konoha higher up definitely had a hand in the slaughtering of the village by using itachi.

What we do know that is true is itachi life
Kushina's life
Tobirama created edo tensei

The only thing we arent sure about is what tobi said about the start of the village and the discrimination issue. We need more info before he judge whether tobi was trolling or telling the truth

First of all, thank's for the brilliant post, and for bringing up this discussion.

I want to repeat a part of my arguments that I have made in my thread about the Uchiha massacre mystery.

In this thread, a lot of people already criticized OP for relying too much on Tobi's words. I wish to add that not only Tobi could be lying, but he could be hiding important facts.

I know this is conjecture: but some people in this thread have already wondered why the Uchiha have started the plot against the village. I do not mean that they had no motivation; but they were much weaker than the rest. Isn't it strange that they would try to make a move out of such a weak position? And, even though they might have resented the distrust and the weakened influence that was a consequence, I do not think that their position was so desparate that they would have no choice but to fight.

So, a large part of the Uchiha mystery that is still unexplained is, in my view, the question: why did the Uchiha rebel?

In my opinion, they must have been convinced that they had a chance to win. And there is one person that could have convinced them: Tobi, posing as Madara.

We have seen lot's of evidence of Tobi working like that: behind the scences, making other people do what he wants. He did it when he controlled the Mizukage.

What he could have done is revealed himself to the Uchiha and offered his help in the rebellion.

If this was the case, together with the fact that Tobi was actually responsible for the Kyuubi attack (notice that here he lies to Sasuke, saying that this was a natural disaster), this makes Tobi directly responsible for the death of the Uchiha. I think that if Sasuke realizes this, he will quickly change his target ;]

But this is not all. I chose to quote this post because OP says: "What we do know that is true is itachi life".

Now that's a bit too much. We only know the version that Tobi said, plus the fact that Itachi did not deny the most important parts of it, and Danzo did not deny this as well. But an important part which is unclear is:

1) was Itachi really sufficiently motivated to kill his own family and clan? Or did he just agree to take the blame in exchange for protecting Sasuke?

Notice that Hiruzen did not support this action, and Danzo only wanted the Uchiha's eyes. Could Itachi really have gone along with this? If so, it would really make him Danzo's puppet. I do not think so.

2) could Itachi really do the job himself? Tobi says that he helped Itachi, but there is an important problem. When Itachi learns from Naruto that Tobi told Sasuke how Danzo ordered the massacre, he says: "Damn you, Madara... So you knew..." How is it possible for Madara/Tobi not to know about Itachi's orders, if he was helping him?

The dead bodies of the Uchiha do not have any signs of Amaterasu, and there is no destruction in this part of the village that could be attributed to Susanoo or Shinra Tensei. The Uchiha seem to have been killed by "conventional means".

3) What was the role of Shisui? How did Itachi get his MS?

I would say, before we can settle the score of the conflict between Senju and Uchiha (btw, I completely agree with OP that the Senju were no saints), we need to resolve the Uchiha mystery. Can anyone help me with that?

Another interesting bit that awaits an explanation is Zetsu.

We know that Zetsu was the result of an experiment that combined Senju and Uchiha DNA. If this is true, and if Zetsu was created before the fight between Madara and Hashirama, it seems like Zetsu was the result of an cooperation between Senju and Uchiha. Considering how this turned out, nobody could really think that the Senju were any better than the Uchiha.

Same goes for Edo Tensei. I fully agree that developing this technique by Tobirama is a black spot on the Senju.