Ending the Senju/Uchiha debate

[Blaze Release]

Its about time this discussion gets put to rest. Its almost as if people cannot read, refuse to read and instead just look at the manga pics or are just plain ignorant. Either way ill enlighten you'll; the facts about the Uchiha and the Senju.

Now i keep hearing people saying that the uchiha were evil and the senju were good. Allow me annihilate that myth.

From what we know the senju offered the uchiha a peace treaty and the uchiha accpeted because they also wanted peace;

Spoiler

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From what we know the uchiha accepted hashirama the senju leader as the first hokage instead of their own leader madara;

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The uchiha turned their back on madara *(their leader) because they wanted peace;

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They started despise him due to his power hungry and war ways. Madara translanted this as them betraying him;

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So from what we know so far the uchiha also wanted peace and accepted the senju leader hashirama as the leader of the village over their own leader and later despised their leader as a power hungry war lover.

The second hokage trying to play nice and giving the uchiha a 'special' role;

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But this was the truth behind the so called special role;

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The uchiha were blamed/suspected of the fox's attack. This shows that whilst the uchiha had complete faith in the senju and accepted their leader as the hokage, the senju on the otherhand didnt trust the uchiha;

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They were further pushed into isolation;

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So from what we know the uchiha accepted the senju peace treaty because they always wanted peace. The stood behind the senju leader and cast away their own leader because they believe he was a power hungry war lover. It seems like whilst the uchiha fully trusted the senju, the senju didnt as tobirama has showed us with his so called special role and as the elders has shown us. They have been further isolated. From what we know which clan seem like the victims?.

The A coup D'etat was bound to happen sooner or later. Just imagine this in real life or relate it to history where a group of people have been discriminated for so long. They are eventually bound to respond. The fact that the uchiha have waited so long to finally respond says shows that they of all people have patience

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;

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They took advantage of 12 year old due to his trauma;

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They abused his love for the village;

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And ordered him to wipe out his clan. His clan that had the right to finally stand up for themselves;

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Now that the Uchiha has had enough and have decided to stand up for themselves, now sarutobi wants to sort things out (not his fault though, be he is still the hokage he shouldve done something before all this);

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He was given the orders to kill everyone uchiha (who had the right to demand justice), but he couldnt kill sasuke;

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The only conciliation sarutobi could do was to protect sasuke from the elders, especially danzou;

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So tell me which clan seem victims. From what ive read it seems like the senju tricked the uhciha, this is debeatable though. From what ive seen its seems like they used the peace treaty as a strategy to form an alliance wit the uchiha to later slowly kill them off. When an uchiha (madara) saw what was happening the uchiha already trusted this peace treaty. When madara attacked and the 2nd hokage saw that they might be similar people following madara's footsteps he used a wise stragety with the special role nonsense.

How can Kushina say she was chosen to become a jinchurcki. How come she doesnt have a choice;

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Senju taking advantage of the uzumaki clan;

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Once naruto heard the truth, even he got worked up. Basically because they used his mother, similarly to the way itachi was used and abused (A hero was instead put into the bingo book to kill when encountered);

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So now they have taken advantage of the uchiha and uzumaki.

This is where you learn exactly what i mean. We all know about edo tensei.
In order to use it you have to use LIVE human beings as sacrifices. Now the second hokage Tobirama created such a technique. He mustve used live human beings either from the village, war prisoners. Either in order to create such a technique you have to have experimented;

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Even madara who has been considered evil frowned up such a technique;

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Seems like even a power hungry madara knew the limits, yet tobirama didnt and created such a kinjutsu (forbidden technique). I challenge you to name me a kinjutsu that is on par with edo tensei in terms of how evil and atrocious it is. What poeple dont understand is that the only true 'evil' uchiha's we know are madara and sasuke and in either case their arent evil.

Its this same technique that brought the downfall of sarutobi. This same technique that is currently being used by the opposition. Its this same technique that has brought fought an upgraded madara

Madara you might question him idea of peace, but in either case he seems to want peace. In sasuke's case, its due to a chain of events which caused him to become like this. His hate is stemmed from what the senju did. If the senju from the beginning had treated the uchiha fairly they wouldnt have tried to take over the village, therefore itachi's mission would also non-existent

 

[Bigfoot34501]

-As for another kinjustu that's worse than IWR, Living Corpse Reincarnation is just as bad if not worse
-Another justu I would like to add (although it's not Kinjutsu) is Tsukuyomi. Psychological torture for that perceived amount of time is pretty evil
-As for your post in general, I agree with you in the fact that the Uchiha are not an evil people, they were subject to the discrimination by the Senju. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I'm getting the feeling that you are saying that the Senju are really the evil ones. While your post makes me agree with you to an extent, I will not judge the entire Senju clan by the actions of two of their members. We only know of 2 (maybe 4) of the Senju, and it's hard to truly judge their feelings of the Uchiha by the First and Second Hokage's actions alone

 

[Blaze Release]

-As for another kinjustu that's worse than IWR, Living Corpse Reincarnation is just as bad if not worse
-Another justu I would like to add (although it's not Kinjutsu) is Tsukuyomi. Psychological torture for that perceived amount of time is pretty evil
-As for your post in general, I agree with you in the fact that the Uchiha are not an evil people, they were subject to the discrimination by the Senju. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I'm getting the feeling that you are saying that the Senju are really the evil ones. While your post makes me agree with you to an extent, I will not judge the entire Senju clan by the actions of two of their members. We only know of 2 (maybe 4) of the Senju, and it's hard to truly judge their feelings of the Uchiha by the First and Second Hokage's actions alone

Nobody is evil they are just as bad as each other. BUT if you look into it in detail they are the 'evil' onces. Btw the living corpse tech isnt on par with edo tensei. Also tsukuyomi isnt even a kinjutsu U_U

 

[Bigfoot34501]

Nobody is evil they are just as bad as each other. BUT if you look into it in detail they are the 'evil' onces. Btw the living corpse tech isnt on par with edo tensei. Also tsukuyomi isnt even a kinjutsu U_U

-I feel Living Corpse Reincarnation is on par with IWR because it keeps the victim alive while the user (Orochimaru) uses their body. I would at least consider it just as evil as IWR
-As for Tsukuyomi I know it's not a Kinjutsu, I made note of that in my post. I was just saying it's a pretty evil justu in general that belongs to the Uchiha clan

EDIT: And like I said I will not judge the true feelings of the Senju clan because we only know of two of their members, the First Hokage and the Second Hokage (we don't officially know Tsunade and Nawaki's last name, it's probably Senju but there's a chance it may not be)

 

[Reborn]

You said the Senju were subjecting the Uchihas to Descrimination, how?

I already have the idea in my head but I want it reiterated just to be sure I have my argument in order.

 

[naruto1246]

so the second hokage did started it because it deosnt seem to be the first hokages fault
and i agree with everything you said but tobi lied to sasuke when he said that it was the kyuubi attack was a freak occurence a natural distaster he made it happen

 

[Owarij]

meh, he used enemies to revive his comrades whom might I add , fought for him with their own free will, all ninjas kill the enemies anyways.. thats not evil...

 

[-Vegeta-]

The Senju banished the Uchiha to a lesser part of the village to keep them out of government affairs to make sure nothing like the Madara incident happened again. Do I think that they should've been discriminated against? No, but it was for the safety of the village

The Uchiha are the ones who tried a coup and they obviously didn't care about the safety of the village if they were planning this because they should've known starting a coup would destroy the village.

The Senju cared for the village while the Uchiha really didn't and that's proven by their supposed coup that they were planning. That's the difference between the 2 right there.

Still I don't believe the Uchiha are truly evil except for a few cases like Sasuke and Madara.

 

[Blaze Release]

You said the Senju were subjecting the Uchihas to Descrimination, how?

I already have the idea in my head but I want it reiterated just to be sure I have my argument in order.

Dude if you read it you'd understand xd

 

[Lostdreams]

very true the uchiha took the senju as the leader not madara for a reason because i believe he is still lying and not telling the full truth

 

[Blaze Release]

The Senju banished the Uchiha to a lesser part of the village to keep them out of government affairs to make sure nothing like the Madara incident happened again. Do I think that they should've been discriminated against? No, but it was for the safety of the village

The Uchiha are the ones who tried a coup and they obviously didn't care about the safety of the village if they were planning this because they should've known starting a coup would destroy the village.

The Senju cared for the village while the Uchiha really didn't and that's proven by their supposed coup that they were planning. That's the difference between the 2 right there.

Still I don't believe the Uchiha are truly evil except for a few cases like Sasuke and Madara.

At the highlighted part. They were discriminated against for so long, thats why they finally stood up. You cannot blame them for finally standing up and basically saying enough is enough and neither madara or sasuke are truly evil as ive explained U_U

 

[-Vegeta-]

At the highlighted part. They were discriminated against for so long, thats why they finally stood up. You cannot blame them for finally standing up and basically saying enough is enough and neither madara or sasuke are truly evil as ive explained U_U

You're right and that points to my other statement about them not caring about the village or the innocent people in it. They should've known starting a coup would kill many innocent people and destroy the village but they wanted to go along with it anyway.

Madara brought down a meteor on a bunch of people and Sasuke killed Danzo, samurai, and tried to kill Sakura, Kakashi, and Naruto. I'm sorry but no matter how you look at it that's evil.

 

[LikeItMuch]

First off this will never end lol Good on you though for piecing it together but it isn't enough to put out that war haha Secondly you can't blame the entire clan for an individuals decision? Each clan had 'evil' people in it and yet you can claim that the entire clan is a victim or evil? The Uchiha were f*cked over just like the Maori in NZ but they went about it the wrong way. The Second was trying to instate peace but he could have done more to gurantee the peace. Each clan could have gone about things a different way but they're both in the wrong for one reason or another.

 

[Slug Princess]

I disagree with most of your points, (not to say all), but I'll give you a +rep because I respect opinions and I admire the hard work you did to get this one. ​

 

[Blaze Release]

meh, he used enemies to revive his comrades whom might I add , fought for him with their own free will, all ninjas kill the enemies anyways.. thats not evil...

Its a kinjutsu for a reason U_U

You're right and that points to my other statement about them not caring about the village or the innocent people in it. They should've known starting a coup would kill many innocent people and destroy the village but they wanted to go along with it anyway.

Madara brought down a meteor on a bunch of people and Sasuke killed Danzo, samurai, and tried to kill Sakura, Kakashi, and Naruto. I'm sorry but no matter how you look at it that's evil.

How were they supposed to get stand their ground down after all these years of discrimination then.

Sasuke hate as ive explained is stemmed from the beginning.
A chain of events is what have led him to who he is now

 

[Owarij]

Its a kinjutsu for a reason U_U



How were they supposed to get stand their ground down after all these years of discrimination then.

Sasuke hate as ive explained is stemmed from the beginning.
A chain of events is what have led him to who he is now

its a kinjutsu because if it was free to be learnt by others, people can do wrong things with it... aka oro/kabuto....... oro went far overboard taking away their minds, and free will..... they still had that with tobirama

 

[-Vegeta-]

Its a kinjutsu for a reason U_U



How were they supposed to get stand their ground down after all these years of discrimination then.

Sasuke hate as ive explained is stemmed from the beginning.
A chain of events is what have led him to who he is now

Maybe try to earn their trust back instead of trying to create a war that would kill alot of people.

Sasuke may have been manipulated all his life but everybody has a choice and Sasuke is no different. He chose to leave the village and seek out Orochimaru, he chose to ignore Itachi's wishes and try and crush the leaf village, he chose to try and capture Bee, he chose to work with Akatsuki, he chose to kill those samurai, he chose to kill Danzo, and he chose to try and kill the rest of team 7.

What he's done makes him evil.

 

[Reborn]

Tobi's words about Tobirama making the military police to keep the Uchihas hold no real evidence of being true, so I'm not exactly sure how they were discriminated against until the inscident with Tobi.

I read your post and I just wanted to be sure of everything since I don't have much more time here and I want to make my point. What is perhaps the only thing we can actually rely on Tobi to do? The answer is lie. He's tried to sugar coat inscidents within Konoha's history for Sasuke in order to persuade Sasuke to remain with him and assist him in his affairs. How do we know that Tobirama's intentions for creating the police weren't signs of faith.

I mean if both clans supposedly wanted peace wouldn't Tobirama try to put the Madara and Hashirama thing behind them?

I also don't think it was confirmed that The Uchihas were isolated in a seprate part of the village until after Tobi's attack with the Kyuubi, which, by that time, the Hokage had every right to be suspicious of the Uchihas. Not to mention it seems as if every clan is sectioned off in some way (Hyuugas seem to have one general complex area).

Also, I'm not even sure the Uchihas are so innocent in that whole inscident with the Kyuubi as well. Where did you see an Uchiha assist in the fight against the Kyuubi? Hiruzen's old team was there, except for Kagami I mean it's strange that everybody else seemed to live to that age from the past yet he was gone. I mean sure deaths could happen but don't you find it a little odd that everybody else lived and he didn't (if that were the case). Also, why would there be a scene soly dedicated to Itachi with Sasuke right in the middle of things and Itachi wondered where his parents were? Didn't Kushina also tell Mikoto that she was nearing child birth.

What makes you think that the planned coup de tat was the first attempt at such by the Uchihas, if not at least by the leaders at the time? Since we're making assumptions that the Senju are just as underhanded as the Uchihas that is. I mean we have a one sided view on the Senju's discriminating against the Uchihas and not exactly from an unbiased view either.

That's my first peice.

 

[Blaze Release]

Spoiler

Tobi's words about Tobirama making the military police to keep the Uchihas hold no real evidence of being true, so I'm not exactly sure how they were discriminated against until the inscident with Tobi.

I read your post and I just wanted to be sure of everything since I don't have much more time here and I want to make my point. What is perhaps the only thing we can actually rely on Tobi to do? The answer is lie. He's tried to sugar coat inscidents within Konoha's history for Sasuke in order to persuade Sasuke to remain with him and assist him in his affairs. How do we know that Tobirama's intentions for creating the police weren't signs of faith.

I mean if both clans supposedly wanted peace wouldn't Tobirama try to put the Madara and Hashirama thing behind them?

I also don't think it was confirmed that The Uchihas were isolated in a seprate part of the village until after Tobi's attack with the Kyuubi, which, by that time, the Hokage had every right to be suspicious of the Uchihas. Not to mention it seems as if every clan is sectioned off in some way (Hyuugas seem to have one general complex area).

Also, I'm not even sure the Uchihas are so innocent in that whole inscident with the Kyuubi as well. Where did you see an Uchiha assist in the fight against the Kyuubi? Hiruzen's old team was there, except for Kagami I mean it's strange that everybody else seemed to live to that age from the past yet he was gone. I mean sure deaths could happen but don't you find it a little odd that everybody else lived and he didn't (if that were the case). Also, why would there be a scene soly dedicated to Itachi with Sasuke right in the middle of things and Itachi wondered where his parents were? Didn't Kushina also tell Mikoto that she was nearing child birth.

What makes you think that the planned coup de tat was the first attempt at such by the Uchihas, if not at least by the leaders at the time? Since we're making assumptions that the Senju are just as underhanded as the Uchihas that is. I mean we have a one sided view on the Senju's discriminating against the Uchihas and not exactly from an unbiased view either.

That's my first peice.

Although most of what you say is based on assumptions im sure there were some parts tobi was sugar coating stuff. What i would say though is that both clans couldve handled things differently therefore there isnt really such a thing as senju=good, uchiha=evil

 

[Blaze Release]

Maybe try to earn their trust back instead of trying to create a war that would kill alot of people.

Sasuke may have been manipulated all his life but everybody has a choice and Sasuke is no different. He chose to leave the village and seek out Orochimaru, he chose to ignore Itachi's wishes and try and crush the leaf village, he chose to try and capture Bee, he chose to work with Akatsuki, he chose to kill those samurai, he chose to kill Danzo, and he chose to try and kill the rest of team 7.

What he's done makes him evil.

Earn their trust?. They where never trusted from the beginning and the fox attack is what made this obvious.

Im not denying that sasuke had done alot of dumb shit, but all he has done has stemmed from the past. You cannot deny that