Ending the MYTH about Sarutobi Hiruzen's Ninjutsu pool

Owarij

Active member
Legendary
Joined
Oct 3, 2011
Messages
13,322
Kin
0💸
Kumi
0💴
Trait Points
0⚔️
Can't really join the argument right now, busy doing something, but I will later


Someone stated he needs to be able to summon all summoning animals?

No.. once he can use the jutsu called Summoning jutsu, it counts as he knows the jutsu....

The ninja doesn't shout out, summoning jutsu- Gamabunta!
....
 

x15751x

Member
Joined
Nov 30, 2011
Messages
327
Kin
0💸
Kumi
0💴
Trait Points
0⚔️
I believe this is a problem of interpretation. Just because Hiruzen knew about a jutsu doesn't mean that he could use it, but rather, he could identify it, know how it works, and be able to counter it effectively. He "knew" all the jutsu's in Konoha during his time, but couldn't use them.
 

-Vegeta-

Active member
Elite
Joined
Jun 8, 2011
Messages
9,385
Kin
0💸
Kumi
0💴
Trait Points
0⚔️
I believe this is a problem of interpretation. Just because Hiruzen knew about a jutsu doesn't mean that he could use it, but rather, he could identify it, know how it works, and be able to counter it effectively. He "knew" all the jutsu's in Konoha during his time, but couldn't use them.
The databooks state he knew and could USE all the jutsu in the leaf. Do I think this is an exaggeration? Yes, but I was just pointing out that it's said he could also use them.
 

Owarij

Active member
Legendary
Joined
Oct 3, 2011
Messages
13,322
Kin
0💸
Kumi
0💴
Trait Points
0⚔️
I believe this is a problem of interpretation. Just because Hiruzen knew about a jutsu doesn't mean that he could use it, but rather, he could identify it, know how it works, and be able to counter it effectively. He "knew" all the jutsu's in Konoha during his time, but couldn't use them.
knew and could use all konoha jutsu in his time , was the statement
 

Owarij

Active member
Legendary
Joined
Oct 3, 2011
Messages
13,322
Kin
0💸
Kumi
0💴
Trait Points
0⚔️
Well its a bs statement. If he could use all of Konoha's jutsus, why didnt he just amaterasu Oro and be done with it.

knew and could use all existing konoha jutsu...

Meaning the day he got the title professor
he knew all CURRENT EXISTING jutsu in konoha

Not every jutsu in the history of konoha including dead people....Itachi wasnt even alive yet... he was like 5 during the nine tails attack , Was there anyone else with MS? unknown...
 

Darkakatsuki

Active member
Regular
Joined
Dec 24, 2011
Messages
1,033
Kin
0💸
Kumi
0💴
Trait Points
0⚔️
the strength at which a certain jutsu is performed at does not determine its rank.

A great fireball done by part 1 sasuke and a great fireball done by itachi against bee are both at the same rank, yet their strengths and sizes are completely different.

Hiruzen might not be able to do some jutsus at the same levels as nins who specialize in them, but he can still do them which would still mean he mastered every jutsu in the leaf.
The data book and narutopedia state that Hiruzen has has an earth and fire affinity, nothing more, nothing less, couple that with the fact that he used only those two against orochimaru, it is easy to conclude that Hiruzen in no way knew mastered or even learned all the jutsu in konoha since there are like 5 elements that we have seen in manga

And in no way did he master all the forbidden jutsu in konoha, otherwise he could have just blitzed orochimaru with Minato's ftg and killed him with rasengan or chidori, why waste all that chakra on those, as orochimaru said, pathetic jutsu that wouldn't hit him?

The bllodline limits and special abilities that can only be learned by people with bodies suited for those abilities are also impossible for him to use, like the inuzuka's shikakyu no jutsu, hyuga's juuken techs ( you need to have the enhanced body of a hyuga to do them) , mind tranfer of the yamanaka and body expansion of the akimichi, there is no plausable way for him to be able to know all this c clan secrete/bloodline techs. And he certainly didn't know hashirama's wood element, I can't believe that someone in this thread actually said that, as if? Than why didn't he just stop the kyubi with his wood element when it attacked konoha?


Let's not even talk about the mangyeko techs, sasuno'o, blaze release/amaterusu, tsukiyomi and Koto amatsukami, orochimaru was just babling shit when he made that statement about this guy mastering all jutsu in konoha.

He was just overating his sensei just like nagato likes to overate his sensei, jiraiya.

There is a long history of people overating their sensei's or people from their village in the manga. Like how Naruto and sakura said that Kakashi has a better nose than Kiba, but then we find out a few arcs later that he was talking bull when Kiba tracked sasuke even though he used a space time jutsu to escape, a feat that neither kakashi or his ninken, or even akamaru failed to match because they admitted themselves that they couldn't follow his smell.

Like naruto and sakura said that kakashi has a better sharingan than sasuke, but tobi, orochimaru, and kabuto all said that sasuke had the best sharingan they had seen and even said that it was better than Itachi's. Even worse is that Naruto and Sakura hadn't seen sasuke for a whole three years, how they made a comparison considering that fact is beyong me.

Jiraiya said that no one would ever escape his toad oso****us tech and implied that no fire tech would work against it but Itachi and Kisame escaped with ease and used a fire tech to burn it.

There are many others in the manga even form other villages that have either overhyped people with close relations to them or just overhyped themselves, orochimaru was just one of those when he made that ridiculous statement, Hiruzen was overhyped by oro and iruka, both of whom have strong relations to him, oro was his fav student and ihiruzen was a granfather figure to iruka just like he was to naruto if the flashbacks are anything to go by, the old man is strong but nowhere near what he is hyped to be, and even if he was as strong as they say, which I strongly doubt for many reasons I've already gone through in other threads, he definately didn't become that strong by mastering all the jutsu in konoha, that is pure crap.
 

Blaze Release

Active member
Legendary
Joined
Sep 20, 2011
Messages
11,995
Kin
0💸
Kumi
0💴
Trait Points
0⚔️
the strength at which a certain jutsu is performed at does not determine its rank.

A great fireball done by part 1 sasuke and a great fireball done by itachi against bee are both at the same rank, yet their strengths and sizes are completely different.

Hiruzen might not be able to do some jutsus at the same levels as nins who specialize in them, but he can still do them which would still mean he mastered every jutsu in the leaf.
Firstly the great fire ball is a c-rank technique i believe and both sasuke and itachi are fire element users. They are uchiha's. I dont think you understand what im trying to say
 

Owarij

Active member
Legendary
Joined
Oct 3, 2011
Messages
13,322
Kin
0💸
Kumi
0💴
Trait Points
0⚔️
The data book and narutopedia state that Hiruzen has has an earth and fire affinity, nothing more, nothing less, couple that with the fact that he used only those two against orochimaru, it is easy to conclude that Hiruzen in no way knew mastered or even learned all the jutsu in konoha since there are like 5 elements that we have seen in manga

And in no way did he master all the forbidden jutsu in konoha, otherwise he could have just blitzed orochimaru with Minato's ftg and killed him with rasengan or chidori, why waste all that chakra on those, as orochimaru said, pathetic jutsu that wouldn't hit him?

The bllodline limits and special abilities that can only be learned by people with bodies suited for those abilities are also impossible for him to use, like the inuzuka's shikakyu no jutsu, hyuga's juuken techs ( you need to have the enhanced body of a hyuga to do them) , mind tranfer of the yamanaka and body expansion of the akimichi, there is no plausable way for him to be able to know all this c clan secrete/bloodline techs. And he certainly didn't know hashirama's wood element, I can't believe that someone in this thread actually said that, as if? Than why didn't he just stop the kyubi with his wood element when it attacked konoha?


Let's not even talk about the mangyeko techs, sasuno'o, blaze release/amaterusu, tsukiyomi and Koto amatsukami, orochimaru was just babling shit when he made that statement about this guy mastering all jutsu in konoha.

He was just overating his sensei just like nagato likes to overate his sensei, jiraiya.

There is a long history of people overating their sensei's or people from their village in the manga. Like how Naruto and sakura said that Kakashi has a better nose than Kiba, but then we find out a few arcs later that he was talking bull when Kiba tracked sasuke even though he used a space time jutsu to escape, a feat that neither kakashi or his ninken, or even akamaru failed to match because they admitted themselves that they couldn't follow his smell.

Like naruto and sakura said that kakashi has a better sharingan than sasuke, but tobi, orochimaru, and kabuto all said that sasuke had the best sharingan they had seen and even said that it was better than Itachi's. Even worse is that Naruto and Sakura hadn't seen sasuke for a whole three years, how they made a comparison considering that fact is beyong me.

Jiraiya said that no one would ever escape his toad oso****us tech and implied that no fire tech would work against it but Itachi and Kisame escaped with ease and used a fire tech to burn it.

There are many others in the manga even form other villages that have either overhyped people with close relations to them or just overhyped themselves, orochimaru was just one of those when he made that ridiculous statement, Hiruzen was overhyped by oro and iruka, both of whom have strong relations to him, oro was his fav student and ihiruzen was a granfather figure to iruka just like he was to naruto if the flashbacks are anything to go by, the old man is strong but nowhere near what he is hyped to be, and even if he was as strong as they say, which I strongly doubt for many reasons I've already gone through in other threads, he definately didn't become that strong by mastering all the jutsu in konoha, that is pure crap.

right..because someone doesn't show something in the manga, they dont have it..

So orochimaru has only a few jutsu right? despite him spending his life learning them.. .stfu

Kishi wouldn't put a false thing like that into his databook
 

Darkakatsuki

Active member
Regular
Joined
Dec 24, 2011
Messages
1,033
Kin
0💸
Kumi
0💴
Trait Points
0⚔️

knew and could use all existing konoha jutsu...

Meaning the day he got the title professor
he knew all CURRENT EXISTING jutsu in konoha

Not every jutsu in the history of konoha including dead people....Itachi wasnt even alive yet... he was like 5 during the nine tails attack , Was there anyone else with MS? unknown...
Why didn't he use his non existent wood elemental masery to tame the fox when it attacked? If he knew all the jutsu in konoha at whatever point, then he would have know mokuton by the time the nine taiks attacked, so why didn't he?

Madara and Izuna had MS at the time they lived in the village before madara took his bro's eyes and defected, and they fought Hashirama and Tobirama many times and at the valley of the end madara fought hashirama, there would have obviously been a lot of ms techs tecorded in the forbidden scroll of seals at the time, Hiruzen became hokage, your excuse of Itachi's being 5 at the time of the fox attack is invalid, plus, at the time oro said his statement, Itachi had long since unlocked and used his mangyeko, Hiruzen mentioned that he learned the fourth's reaper seal from the forbidden scroll, said the fourth recorded it there before he died, so why didn't he learn Itachi's mangyeko, hashirama's wood element, Tobirama's molecular creation of water, and Madara's sasuno'o that was obviously recorded by hashirama?

Why didn't he stop the fox with his so called wood element that he supposedly mastered, if off course we take into account what oro said.
 

Owarij

Active member
Legendary
Joined
Oct 3, 2011
Messages
13,322
Kin
0💸
Kumi
0💴
Trait Points
0⚔️
Why didn't he use his non existent wood elemental masery to tame the fox when it attacked? If he knew all the jutsu in konoha at whatever point, then he would have know mokuton by the time the nine taiks attacked, so why didn't he?

Madara and Izuna had MS at the time they lived in the village before madara took his bro's eyes and defected, and they fought Hashirama and Tobirama many times and at the valley of the end madara fought hashirama, there would have obviously been a lot of ms techs tecorded in the forbidden scroll of seals at the time, Hiruzen became hokage, your excuse of Itachi's being 5 at the time of the fox attack is invalid, plus, at the time oro said his statement, Itachi had long since unlocked and used his mangyeko, Hiruzen mentioned that he learned the fourth's reaper seal from the forbidden scroll, said the fourth recorded it there before he died, so why didn't he learn Itachi's mangyeko, hashirama's wood element, Tobirama's molecular creation of water, and Madara's sasuno'o that was obviously recorded by hashirama?

Why didn't he stop the fox with his so called wood element that he supposedly mastered, if off course we take into account what oro said.
If u read through the thread kiddo, you'd know what the correct viz translation said..
You must be registered for see images


Do you understand the HUGE difference between that ^ and the commonly assumed incorrect translation?
You must be registered for see images




One says he could use all EXISTING konoha jutsu... meaning when he started getting called professor, he was able to use all current jutsu..

The other says he knew and could use every jutsu ever in konoha history...

the viz translation is the correct one
here's all the manga pages you need
You must be registered for see images
 

sravan

Active member
Veteran
Joined
Dec 6, 2011
Messages
2,159
Kin
0💸
Kumi
0💴
Trait Points
0⚔️
The theory is good but if he perfects the other elements he can produce s rank elements for example kakashi if tries he may do futon rasen shiruken because he already mastered rasengan an A rank technique that is enough to beat any enemy.
 

Darkakatsuki

Active member
Regular
Joined
Dec 24, 2011
Messages
1,033
Kin
0💸
Kumi
0💴
Trait Points
0⚔️
No. I respect, you Blaze, and for that I will not argue. Hiruzen is a boss
Dude to be honest I don't in anyway see the difference between those two manga scenes of orochimaru you quoted, sure you could excuse the Itachi mangyeko thing using YOUR INTERPRETATION of what was said, but you can't excuse his lack of knowledge of say Mokuton, Madara's ems jutsu, Tobirama's molecular creation of water, danzo's vacuum techs, etc, since all these would have existed BEFORE he attained the title of professor, you have no way of explaining these, especially the mokuton considering that he didn't stop the fox when it attacked konoha and we know he fought it with the rest of the village before the fourth came. Bare in mind that all the other clans also existed at the time of Hiruzen so called feat of knowing all jutsu in konoha, I don't like calling people names but I'm starting to get the impression that you're a rabid fanboy, since you intentionally ignore what I said about the other clan and kage's jutsu and just quote a small part of my argument to prove me wrong about Itachi and the Yondaime's techs as a way to support Hiruzen's fantasy feat.

And your comparison between oro and hiruzen is invalid dawg, oro was never known or said to know all jutsu of anywhere, what oro did was spend his life trying to gain immortality and the sharingan SO THAT he CAN LEARN all the jutsu in the world, it was never said that he knew all jutsu or many jutsu, just that he wanted to and his methods to achieve that goal were to gain sharingan and immortality, those two were oro's immediate goals, you can't compare oro's situation with hiruzen, oro didn't show that many jutsu yes, that is becauser he hadn't achieved his goal yet.

Hiruzen on the other hand is a different case, oro's words (whichever translation, or interpretation you make) imply that Hiruzen at some point, would have known every jutsu in konoha at some point, which is as I have pointed out before impossible, he fought against oro and two kage edo's. And was being pushed to his limits until the very end, you can't hide abilities in that kind of situation, we should have seen something, Onoki and chiyo are older than him and we still saw all their strongest jutsu, why was hiruzen using those pathetic jutsu. That would nver kill orochimaru if he had that many options.

I have also pointed out that he only used two affinities and is said to have those two in the data books and narutopedia.

Your argument concerning oro about the above statement has already been proven invalid, their situations are very different, and if you read the thread, I have also pointed out the consistency with which people have made claims about people twho are close to them that have been later in the series proven to be bull crap, what makes orochimaru any different then those people.

You yourself are just speculating that he knew all the jutsu and sffinities but have no proof of it except for oro's words, which have a rediculous number of irrefutable, vgaping holes in them, couple that with the history of exegeration by the naruto characters, there is a much stronger argument against Hiruzen then there is for him, all the evidence pointed out against him is based on manga fact and you are basing on a character's words, something that has been PROVEN to be unreliable from the start because many people have said things about others or themselves that have been PROVEN to be untrue IN the manga.

You should stop trying to act smarter than everyone and pay attention to detail for a change, acting all superior is just making you look stupid and petulent.
 

Baka Sennin

Active member
Veteran
Joined
Oct 14, 2011
Messages
3,750
Kin
0💸
Kumi
0💴
Trait Points
0⚔️
you're obviously right.

personally i think that at the time when he was named hokage, sarutobi simply knew and could perform all known konoha jutsu which fell under earth, fire, and ying or yang (genjutsu and hiden techniques). he might have had another element like suiton though... KG's are naturally out of the question.

also, a point to consider is that villages usually have a vast majority of users who have an affinity for one particular element... ie konoha has many fire users, iwa has many rock, kuro has many lightning, mizu has many suiton, and the sand has many wind users. so maybe at the time of konoha being founded, there were definitely these clans:
senju,uchiha,akimichi,hyuuga and aburame i think. seeing as the uchiha and hyuuga have kg and the rest use ying-yang, it could be that fire (uchiha),earth (senju), and water (senju) were the only elements in konoha's possession. which makes it possible for sarutobi in theory to be able to use all the clans techniques (except kg) at the time.
 

Gregjader

Member
Joined
Jan 24, 2012
Messages
99
Kin
0💸
Kumi
0💴
Trait Points
0⚔️
From what we know of the narutoverse it is clear that those statements are not to be taken litteraly.
As for second/third chakra techs that is just speculation. The manga proved you wrong (Sasuke). You said the Uchiha were exceptions. Coming from where?
KG were said to be dna-related.Jinton and Mokuton are the only exceptions. Kishi has to tell us more about them.
 
Last edited:
Top