Kakashi is superior by a wide margin when it comes to ninjutsu. To start off, Itachi has 2 elements (katon and suiton) that he has above average proficiency with, while Kakashi has 3 (raiton, suiton, and doton) in which one of he is a master, another he is a highly adept user, and the last he has above average proficiency with. Suiton and Doton alone counter and/or overpower all of Itachi's elemental techniques. Consider this:
- Kakuzu Arc Kakashi's
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used without a water source managed to stop Kakuzu's Katon/Fuuton combo despite being evaporated; the katon ceased to advance [
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]. Kakuzu's collaboration technique by power and AoE far surpasses Sasuke's curse mark enhanced fireball, which in turn surpassed Itachi's fire technique [
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]. By scaling and power progression, War Arc Kakashi's water won't stalemate Itachi's fire. It'll overpower it with ease since a vastly inferior Kakuzu Arc Kakashi's water wall already could overpower it. Then we also have Kakashi's thick
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which he can form without hand seals, an element noted to have resistance to fire techniques, and simply going underground via Hiding Like a Mole [
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].
- Itachi's suiton is rather weak compared to other proficient users like Kakashi. He can use it without a water source, but
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that he used as an Edo wasn't much bigger than Kakuzu Arc Kakashi's water wall, which isn't very good considering that water dragon is supposed to be a slightly better technique on a wider scale. Applying power progression and scaling, War Arc Kakashi's suiton should be much better and larger in AoE than earlier versions of Kakashi since Part 1 Kakashi's
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used with a water source was smaller than Kakuzu Arc Kakashi's suiton wall used without one. We also have to account for Kakashi's significant stamina increase which plays a role in the scale of elemental ninjutsu.
- Kakashi is a master of Lightning Release and is one of the best raiton users in the manga. He also has the ability to use the Rasengan and Kage Bunshins.
Now, Itachi does have some useful auxiliary jutsus like his crow clone and his exploding shadow clone, but they do not put Itachi above Kakashi in ninjutsu let alone even close the gap in skill, especially when Kakashi can counter with clones of his own.
Though Kakashi does have a wider arsenal there's no denying that I don't see how he's miles better than Itachi's.
-For your first point, the panel right before the one you posted Kakashi clearly says that he couldn't put out the combination attack. You bring up the point that the fire stop advancing well I thnk it's safe the assume the fire mask and the wind mask stopped the attack due to Kakuzu attempting to land a sneak attack here
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In order to steal Kakashi's heart.
-I don't see how Kakashi's sution is much better, Kakashi was big enough to nearly submerge Kabuto and fill up a decent section of the cave [
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] [if you look at the bottom left panel you can see some water is dripping from the ceiling so the water must of hit near the roof of the cave]
I'd say this is more impressive than Kakashi's suiton seeing it didn't really stop Kakuzu's attack, though by the war arc Kakashi's suiton should be >=Itachi's suiton, only because Kakashi's Kamui usage is what he mostly improves.
- While Itachi's katon should overall be better than Kakashi's seeing his fire style was able to contest with a CM boosted hebi Sasuke before getting pushed back [
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]. But Kakashi does have Riaton while Itachi has no 3rd element giving him a slight edge while Itachi has the better clones. Crow clones which in most cases should startle the enemy of block off their line off sight for a moment, aswell as exploding clones which will explode in Kakashi's face if he tries to destroy it in CQC
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which could cause minor harm or a good distraction.
- As for Kakashi he has regular shadow clones and ration clones which can cause paralysis for a short period of time. Overall all Itachi's clones are better than Kakashi's.
- As for Doton only mud wall is useful but that can be taken out by Itachi's katon, while the the hide like a mole technique shouldn't catch Itachi off guard due to superior reactions and correct me if I'm wrong but Itachi shoul dbe able to see Kakashi's chakra underground due to his sharingan.
Kakashi has ration and doton aswell which give him the edge at the end of the day he's better a ninjustu but by a bit.
CQC
I believe Kakashi and Itachi stalemate each other here like they already did in canon. Both are actually very similar in regards to taijutsu and kenjutsu, and both make basic weapons like shuriken and kunais look more powerful than they are due to their superior skill. Furthermore, both have a 4.5 out of 5 score in taijutsu. However, it's conceivable that Kakashi gains the edge in CQC via flowing the Raikiri through his shinobi weapons [
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]-[
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] to enhance piercing power and strength even above Itachi's katon flow since Raikiri chakra flow >>
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= basic elemental chakra flow [
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]. We also have the fact that Kakashi is stronger than Itachi by feats, since he fought with the Kubikiribōchō (heavy ass sword) for a long while. Strength plays a factor in a kenjutsu fights.
-This one will be fun , Itachi when is come to CQC is superior and here's why. Itachi's ninja tool use is way better than Kakashis he was even able to shut down the rinnengan's linked vision with just kunais
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, which is better than anything Kakashi has done with ninja tools.
-Now here comes the main factor, reaction speed. Itachi has shown some of the best reaction feats in the manga, he was able to react to Kirin with his susano arguably one of them fastest lighting techniques in the manga who's speed get's hyped by Zetsu
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to be hundreds times faster than sound. The fact Itachi was able to react and activate to susano is amazing and puts his reaction far above Kakashi's. There's also other examples like Itachi rather easily dodging an attack from Bee who came behind Itachi, take notice Itachi was already engaging the like of KCM Naruto in CQC at the same time this was happening
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. Not to mention that Itachi also was evading Bee's unorthodox 8 sword kenjustu style before having to retreat to Nagato. The same Bee who was bullying all 3 main fighters in Taka at CQC at the same time.
- Raiton weapons do give him a good advantage but it's no use if Kakashi can't tage Itachi I CQC.
- Also Itachi's footspeed is much higher which should help in CQC, I'll address that later on.
- Kakashi does have superior physical strength seeing how Itachi doesn't really have any strength feats :/.
In the end Itachi>Kakashi in taijustu
Genjutsu
Kakashi has the sharingan if people didn't know, which grants him the ability to see through non MS and above illusions. He countered Obito in genjutsu completely in their fight [
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], a 3T genjutsu master. Someone who was capable of using the ultimate 3T genjutsu, Izanagi; someone who was capable of controlling the Kyūbi and the 4th Mizukage. It's safe to say that no illusion Itachi has below Tsukuyomi will affect 3T Kakashi,
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. Genjutsu is a non factor, but if Itachi decides to use it, it'll be countered with another 3T illusion as seen with Kakashi vs. Obito and Sasuke vs. Itachi. Many posters tend to underrate Kakashi's 3T genjutsu but to break good illusions, a shinobi must be able to cast good illusions as well, and vice versa.
Verdict: Kakashi < Itachi in genjutsu overall due to Itachi's versatility with Ephemeral and the crows but this advantage becomes null in a 1v1 between dojutsu users.
- Pretty sure sharingan genjustu gives you an immunity to visual genjustu not all genjustu below MS level, seeing how we've seen Uchiha get caught in things like sound genjustu.
- Not much to say here apart from finger genjustu will work on Kakashi, so that is something he has to worry about in CQC
Speed
By feats Itachi is slightly faster but the margin isn't wide enough to be a factor. A tired and already injured Kakuzu Arc Kakashi had one of his best shunshun feats to date when he dodged Kakuzu's fuuton and intercepted Raiton Gian [
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], which is hyped to be an extremely fast technique, from some distance away. War Arc Kakashi is indeed faster and he's already had his speed hyped up by
-Itachi's speed is much higher than Kakashi, as you said Itachi has received a 4.5 in speed while Itachi has a 5.
- Itachi has also shown to be quite a bit faster than Base Bee and in one case would of blitzed him if not for KCM Naruto
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. If you look at Bee's speech bubble it clearly has a '!!?' in it, showing that he is rather surprised and he did not notice Itachi meaning he would of got blitzed if not for Naruto despite Nagato also shouting 'Above you'. Also Bee showed no signs of even knowing where Itachi was until he say behind you here
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-Considering that Base Bee was completely overwhelming Sasuke with nothing but swords and the fact that Kakashi hasn't show to be that much faster than Sasuke if not at all it's safe to assume Itachi is a lot faster than Kakashi. Also Bee was able to dodge Jugo's blow after getting hit by a chidori and was so fast to the point where Sasuke lost him and had to get Karin to track him
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- It's clear as day that Itachi is a cut above Kakashi in speed.
Clone Feints
Both shinobi have a penchant for intergrating clone feint during their fights, and very few make it look so flawless. However, Kakashi is the clone feint king here by feats. For one, Kakashi has a better technique to utilize clone feints with, which is his raiton kage bunshins that paralyzes his foe on contact, even though karasu bunshins are indeed useful themselves. Kakashi has actually fooled Itachi twice before using
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and
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respectively. Conversely, Kakashi actually saw through Itachi's bunshin daibakuha feint in the latter scan, meaning that the former will not be so susceptible to getting feinted. Before anyone says that he got clone feinted by Zabuza in part 1 I know he did, but clearly we aren't talking about an out of shape and rusty Kakashi that hadn't really partaken in many serious missions or battles in a long while at the time.
- Not much to say here Kakashi did best Itachi in part 1 wher as in part 2 Itachi suspected it was a clone but Kakashi still get the benefit of the doubt. Though I would say exploding clones are just ass good as ration clones.
Kakashi>=Itachi in clone feints.
Intelligence
Kakashi gets the nod here. Both he and Itachi are among the smartest and most strategically acute shinobi in the NV, but the same story as told with Clone Feints applies here. Kakashi is a superior strategist, tactician, and also has more experience. We've already seen Kakashi execute good startegies against Itachi himself. We've already seen that Kakashi completely deciphered Itachi's front after he used Tsukuyomi in Part 1
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. We've already seen that Pain Arc Kakashi nearly beat Tendō and Shuradō by a clone feint if backup hadn't shown up in such an inopportune time [
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-[
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](he then came up with another strategy with the Akimichi that nearly beat Tendō). We've already seen Kakashi discern the mechanics of Obito's Kamui with no intel beforehand and subsequently came up with an effective battle strategy to combat against it.
- This is a tricky one here, Kakashi deciphered Itachi's Tsukuyomi but again after how long, he showed no signs of figuring out Itachi's move right after there battle and he could of worked it out after 2 years. This is bad for Kakashi seeing how that's his only solid feat.
-Itachi figured out how to stop CT as soon as he saw it, along with immediately coming up for a counter against Kabuto's sound genjustu, by using there own genjustu on each other to counter act the effect.
- While Kakashi had seen Obito's kamui before in action and most likely only came up with a counter by suspecting that Kamui was linked with his S/T technique.
- Overall Itachi is smarter.
How Itachi wins:
-Itachi and Kakashi will most likely size eachother up with a couple of ranged attacks, where all of Kakashi's katons are countered and overpowered by Itachi's own Katons or suitons, where as Kakashi's suitons will take out any katon from Itachi and slightly overpower any suitons. At most Itachi will have to dodge any weakened ninjustu. This is where the fight turns ugly for Kakashi, Itachi will likely turn to CQC where Itachi gains the upper hands easily. Any ration weapons are dodged and any clones Kakashi makes are countered by Itachi's own clones, Kakashi may surprise Itachi with a feint but he's not landing a good hit due to vastly superior reactions. This fight ends with either Kakshi getting caught in finger gen, or during to heat of CQC Itachi weaves a shdow clones sign and overwhelms Kakashi.
Itachi wins medium-high difficulty.
Try not to **** me up too much, I don't really debate much.
Good thread, factual conducted and unbiased.
Here is an other notable speed feat of Kakashi, which elite Kakashi used as an argument a while back.
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Kakashi and his clone run as fas as Guy hit the air with his morning peacock.
They crossed the same distance in the same time.
There is still the first gate of Hachimon which increases the muscles of the user 5 times more (Narutowiki)
Maybe there are some databook facts about the first gate, which would be a more respectable proof.
Good thread, factual conducted and unbiased.
Here is an other notable speed feat of Kakashi, which elite Kakashi used as an argument a while back.
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Kakashi and his clone run as fas as Guy hit the air with his morning peacock.
They crossed the same distance in the same time.
There is still the first gate of Hachimon which increases the muscles of the user 5 times more (Narutowiki)
Maybe there are some databook facts about the first gate, which would be a more respectable proof.
^Decided to change my mind and elaborate with a more serious response. Might not see your reply (don't always get notifications or check back xD ), but I just wanted to leave this here.
Neither do I, smh. Sometimes I forget to reply to people since the notification bar doesn't tell me if they have replied, so I have to go back to thread itself to see if they have.
Suiton> Katon, so yes as long as the range is the same it ceases to advance.
An indirect point that I made in the OP was that by default, Kakashi's suiton is stronger than Itachi's suiton by a decent margin.
This shows no evidence of surpassing Itachi's fire technique. Not in size, if that's what you're getting at (only way for a katon tech to surpass another in this way).
Comparing Kakashi's size here to Kakuzu's attack:
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Comparing the Uchiha bros' katons each to themselves:
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To top it off, this is just a side view of the katon techs the Uchiha bros were using. The flames look taller from the side than Kakuzu's would. You'd see that they span a wider radius too, had Kishimoto done a front view from Sasuke's or Itachi's perspective.
to enhance his katon, which overpowered Itachi's katon. They were the same size as you posted. Another thing, you kind of just defeated yourself on this point because if you compare Kakuzu's attack to Sasuke's, clearly it's wider in AoE and taller in vertical height. Just compare Kakashi's position to Kakuzu's attack relative to Sasuke and Itachi's position to their katon attacks.
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Then we also have the fact that Kakuzu's katon alone has a wider AoE than Sasuke and Itachi's katon when we consider that African American and Cracker Zetsu were right in the proximity of the Uchiha brothers' fight and weren't affected, and that Kakuzu's katon alone is this wide [
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]-[
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] and forced all of Team 10 + Kakashi to dodge. If you want a better angle of Itachi's fireball, here you
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. Clearly not bigger than Kakuzu's katon alone, let alone Kakuzu's katon fuuton combo.
Most of Kakashi's power scaling is using Kamui after the Pein arc. Any thing else is just guessing.
...And this is just outright bias. I have absolutely no idea or no clue whatsoever how anybody can say "Shippuden Kakashi without Kamui is = Part 1 Kakashi", completely, and totally false on your part, not to mention the fact that this claim is based on nothing.
Kakuzu's tech was not on the same level of Sasuke's or Itachi's tech. Not in size at least. It was smaller.
It doesn't matter if that particular tech is resistant to katon. Because it's primarily used for surprise attacks, like how he tried to ensnare Pein there, but failed.
How did he fail? Tendo was unable to get away and had to use his
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and give him time to dodge it, otherwise he could have easily moved out of the way if the wall wasn't there. And obviously the wall is primarily used for defensive purposes hence its name...
if he formed the seals necessary to form that doton wall. If you still aren't convinced somehow:
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No hand seals. Anything else?
Ninja use the amount of chakra they put in to vary the techniques size. Itachi was in a cramped cave against Kabuto, Kakashi was in an open area. Itachi wanted to get Kabuto away, he made it large enough to wash away the latter... any bigger would be pointless and possible harm himself.
No it wouldn't have, since he could have just jumped back considering that the cave wasn't cramped enough to significantly restrict movement... Also Itachi was an Edo, and edos are supposed to have unlimitied chakra, correct? If not unlitmited chakra, than clearly a shit ton more chakra considering that Itachi spammed Susano'o, Amaterasu, and used Tsukuyomi without drawbacks. Doing that alive would spell certain death for Itachi.
So, another guessing scenario just using the excuse "power scaling"? I wouldn't use that for Itachi, so not for Kakashi either. What they have on panel is what they have.
So just because you aren't using power scaling means that I can't either... ok. Lol. This is another completely biased statement from you yet again, since shinobi canonically have progressed in skill and power as the manga goes on. Itachi's development ended because, well, he died.
One of the best? I wouldn't say this. The man cannot complete raikiri, a signature move without the sharingan. Kumogakure ninja best him in lightning release.
Hell, even in one of the scans I proved that Sasuke's Chidori flow is better than regular raiton flow from Killer Bee, and Kakashi's Raikiri is better than both.
Kakashi needed Naruto's help to counter a 30% clone of Itachi. Yes, Itachi's bunshins do count. Also, this statement of "Kakashi counters all Itachi's clones with his own" is subjective. We could say either. It holds no weight.
Really, I already posted TWO scans where Kakashi fooled Itachi with his own clone feints, meaning that he'll counter him AGAIN. Your argument holds no weight because it isn't based on anything, while I already posted scans to support what I've said. Clearly Kakashi created the strategy for Naruto to kill him with Oodama Rasengan, but he could have just as easily killed him with Raikiri since, like I said to Zexion, Itachi didn't notice that the Kakashi that let himself get caught in genjutsu was a clone until the last second...
Only as far as having more elements goes. Itachi is better at using katon than Kakashi is. Suitons are comparable. Not a large gap.
I already proved you wrong, considering that Kakashi, canonically, is a master of raiton and a highly adept suiton user while Itachi hasn't mastered either of his elements, and I also proved that Kakashi has better suiton than Itachi. Perhaps if you countered using manga scans to support your reasoning I'd reconsider, but you haven't, and I doubt that you can.
Yes, when Kakashi has another team member helping him for distraction. Hardly a "stalemate in canon".
This won't work against a 3T master like Kakashi who has the benefit of his own precognition. That was a nice feat though.
Most likely not. Seals are needed to imbue weapons with elemental chakra. If this is a close-range taijutsu fight, neither Kakashi nor Itachi are going to have time to step back, take a few moments, pull out the weapons, create the seals, and be ready. Notice how Kakashi is slightly far off in that panel, too when he's using raiton with his weapons.
What? Clearly not since Killer Bee, Kakashi, and Sasuke canonically did this without forming seals. Maybe Itachi does need to since he did form seals, considering that he's not as proficient in elemental ninjutsu as Kakashii and Sasuke.
Strength doesn't play a fight in taijutsu fights with Itachi. It's mainly speed. It's dependent upon who can strike quicker and match blows. Itachi kept up with a KCM Naruto clone for a small while, Kakashi has no feats like that. His best taijutsu feats were actually against Kakuzu and those weren't in terms of speed, but mainly movement.
Clearly it does since it's two opponents clashing with weapons in order to try and overpower each other. Remind me when Naruto has better taijutsu feats than Kakashi, because
1. Naruto was just trying to defend himself while talking to him
2. KCM doesn't enhance taijutsu, only speed.
I wouldn't say "genjutsu master". Only one with a domesticated beast prior Naruto was Bee. Yagura and his did not get along. So, not a perfect jin like some thought. 3-tomoe genjutsu does work. Even Itachi caught Bee for a while before Hachibi took 5 or so seconds to break him out. Yagura's beast evidently didn't care.
Don't really care that Yagura was a perfect jinchuuriki or not, being able to put someone on mind control and secretely run a village through genjutsu is clearly a good enough feat for Obito. Why wouldn't you say genjutsu master? That's based on nothing, becasue he canonically is. Lol, how can he use Izanagi and not be a 3T genjutsu master? C'mon, at least try and counter using manga scans instead of speculation.
Uchiha are known to have powers to control the Kyuubi, long before Obito. Prime example being Madz. As for Izanagi, any Uchiha with knowledge of it could use it. For generations, Uchiha wasted eyes using it and Izanami had to be created to stop their own kind from this trivial abuse of power.
Hebi Sasuke with 3-tomoe talked to an illusion of Itachi on his throne being stabbed for a few moments before realizing it was a genjutsu.
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How long would it take Kakashi to see through one of Itachi's genjutsus? Would he be as quick as an actual Uchiha, like Sasuke? Would he in time? Maybe, maybe not.
...This one scan disproves everything you said. They were clearly just standing there and throwing genjutsu back at each other. Kakashi did the same thing against Obito, as I have already posted in the OP. I have absolutely no idea how not being an Uchiha derails Kakashi here since he has already mastered his 3T, and Itachi already said that he wouldn't expect the real Kakashi to get trapped in ordinary 3T genjutsu as I have already posted in the OP as well.
Wrong scan. He is just acknowledging that genjutsu doesn't work on clones. This goes for both opponents and they know this.
No, this is just you choosing to diverge from what Itachi actually meant to try and help your argument.
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"You" meaning the real Kakashi.
No, a shinobi does not have to be able to cast good illusions to break them. Sakura can break general genjutsu, this doesn't mean that she can cast them well.
That is different from how 3T dojutsu users work. I'll just copy/paste what I said to Zexion.
That is different from dojutsu users who can just see through ocular genjutsu. Kakashi mastered his MS during the War Arc which entailed mastering his 3T first, which he already did prior to the war. His feat against Obito just epitomizes that, since he countered with an illusion of his own as well. How can a 3T master not cast good illusions?
Databook states how fast it is, and the manga showed its fast travel speed as well, just go google image search "raiton gian databook", literally one of the first images.
Obito has given compliments before. His statements are usually casual. He said Sakura was "strong"... she is- but not a prime example in NV, for instance.
And Sakura is strong, wicked strong as we've seen over and over in the manga. Was Obito wrong? Why does anything else matter.
Sasuke, Itachi, and many other shinobi can utilize shunshin that fast to appear behind a seemingly halted Obito who is fooling around and could easily leave Yamato's bind.
Yes, in a less-than-serious skirmish meant to capture the Leaf's attention. Meanwhile, Itachi had a clone set up himself which took some time from Kakashi with him having to save Kurenai.
Out of shape and rusty? Kakashi hasn't taken any breaks. He's been a jounin for years and had the possession as a sensei going on missions long before the Team 7 we know of came to be.
Manga disagrees with you, as I have already outlined two instances where Itachi was fooled completely by kage bunshins, and several other instances where Kakashi successfully replaced himself with clones.
Itachi praises every opponent bar Orochimaru. He's a polite shinobi, ironically. Feats are better than hype. Then again, intelligence is way too subjective.
EX: I think Orochimaru is the smartest in NV for the knowledge of jutsu he has. Kakashi is the best strategist imo. Itachi is good at coming up with counters while in the heat of battle. Too many different ways one can be smart. Each have the edge over the other in different categories.
Welp, you just agreed with me that Kakashi is a better strategist, which was my point anyway, so no point in saying anything else. I know I said intelligence in the OP, but I actually was referring more to in-battle tactics, strategies, etc., etc.
"Almost" or "nearly" don't have much weight. It's what they actually succeed at that matters.
Not only for a team, and clearly Kakashi is one of the smartest ninja in every sense of the word. Perhaps if you could provide scans to support your reasoning, maybe I'd reconsider. The fact of the matter is that your discourse of subjective perception is making yourself look like a hypocrite in several areas of your argument, with all due respect.
But they are not completely countered as established before. At all.
You literally established nothing, nor have you countered any of my scans other than using subjective and biased reasoning.
Kakashi is best when it comes to leading a team, that's what he was praised for. But just the same, in a high profile fight he needs the help of a team member most often.
Not always and this is based on just two instances with one shinobi in the manga. It doesn't mean he's a "master".
I have already addressed this over and over again, Kakashi already mobilized his own strategy before Itachi had the chance to, and he canonically saw through Itachi's own feints and tactics.
Close range fights don't allow for elemental usage here as much.
...Time and time again shinobi have used elemental streams and flow in close range to gain the advantage in the manga. Time, and time again. So, that's false.
Overall, this fight conclusion just looks like you anticipate anyone who goes against Kakashi to just stand there and take a raikiri. Not too realistic.
Tables haven't completely turned, only somewhat tilted. Even so, 3-tomoe Itachi beat 3-tomoe Kakashi high-diff. DMS Kakashi can easily defeat Itachi.
Please don't look at me as a rude person for calling you out like this, but most of your argument revolved around subjective reasoning, biased perception, false claims, and all without manga scans to prove anything that you have said. I have provided more than enough scans to prove my own reasoning, and I base my reasoning on logic and what has transpired in the manga. Also, clearly I'm only talking about this particular matchup as well, which is why I've spent the whole damn thread comparing 3T Itachi and 3T Kakashi as well as their confrontations which, quite frankly, a surprising amount of readers misinterpreted and just have converted it into the fuel they use to spit out the shit and falsities that most moronic Itachi fans spew even now (not talking about you, don't misundestand, though you have also said your fair share of false and biased claims here)... Nowhere, absolutely nowhere in my post have I hinted that "lol raiton clone stun followed by raikiri GG" will defeat everyone, like some moronic and biased Kakashi fans on this site have continually asserted. Furthermore, I know both characters inside out, since I have analyzed their characterization, abilities, fights, quotes, personalities, tendencies, and everything that Kishimoto-san has layed out for us on several occasions, and I'm a fan of both characters. I couldn't give 1, or 2, or 3 cojones who wins this fight.
Now I understand that nobody can completely avoid error, which is why I have explicitly stated that I'm more than happy for someone to prove me wrong using legitimate, undivided, and undeniable proof in the form of manga scans, statements, databook information, and logical reasoning, but you haven't done any of that. Once you do, trust me that I will be happy to concede and put on a metaphorical dunce cap for making this thread, instead of having your fellow Itachi "fans" put on a giant collective dunce cap on your whole fanbase with all of the absent minded, inane, and shit-tastic jokes that they have posted not only on this thread, but on every thread of every section of every part of this god forsaken site. Until then, I will maintain my position.
Assuming this is a serious fight, in which both opponents' lives would be in the balance... Izanami can be a part of Itachi's arsenal. Losing an eye>Losing a life. Though, not like it matters since Kakashi has his life pretty much in order and it's not a jutsu to use here.
Sorry dude, but I have officially declared war on the sick jokes that most Itachi fans are nowadays after reading the pile of hot garbage that I have read so far on this thread, so I won't be holding back on anybody. My foot's sleeping on the gas this time, no break pads, no such thing as last. I am legitimately ashamed that I have to be a fan of the same characters as these other people. I'm actually going to take a shower right now, so don't respond yet until you see that my post is completed, or maybe I'll send you a PM.
Though Kakashi does have a wider arsenal there's no denying that I don't see how he's miles better than Itachi's.
-For your first point, the panel right before the one you posted Kakashi clearly says that he couldn't put out the combination attack. You bring up the point that the fire stop advancing well I thnk it's safe the assume the fire mask and the wind mask stopped the attack due to Kakuzu attempting to land a sneak attack here
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In order to steal Kakashi's heart.
My point
-I don't see how Kakashi's sution is much better, Kakashi was big enough to nearly submerge Kabuto and fill up a decent section of the cave [
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] [if you look at the bottom left panel you can see some water is dripping from the ceiling so the water must of hit near the roof of the cave]
I'd say this is more impressive than Kakashi's suiton seeing it didn't really stop Kakuzu's attack, though by the war arc Kakashi's suiton should be >=Itachi's suiton, only because Kakashi's Kamui usage is what he mostly improves.
- Kakuzu did utilize that attack to distract Kakashi and grab him, but I don't understand how that factors in to the point that Kakashi's suiton detained the attack. Kakuzu can't just magically stop his own attack after he's launched it. His attack was a force that had a linear movement, yet its linear movement ceased due to the suiton wall. The suiton wall in this case was a defensive attack meant to stop or counter the fire/wind attack, and that's what it did, so I don't know how you can interpret that as the attacking technique stopping the defensive technique due to Kakuzu wanting to exploit Kakashi's momentary vulnerability, as you're implying in your post. That doesn't make much sense, nor does it address the fact that the suiton wall stopped katon/fuuton, which is an attack that is a good tier above Itachi's katon technique. Keep in mind that this was Kakuzu Arc Kakashi's suiton wall, War Arc Kakashi's suiton should be more powerful and larger in size by power progression and the stamina increase, which does play a role in elemental ninjutsu. We've already seen Kakashi improve his suiton from Part 1 to Part 2, so it should be the same from Kakuzu Arc to the War Arc, where the improvement was more drastic.
- I assume you meant to post this scan -->
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Anyways I'll show you why Kakashi's suiton is better. Referring to the scans posted in the OP, take a good look at Kakuzu Arc Kakashi's
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including the ashes in between the techniques. His suiton matched Kakuzu's fuuton/katon combo in width and height, yet the amount of water produced didn't seem as large because it evaporated. The fact that his water detained the collaboration technique means that he produced a ton of water, matching the amount of water Itachi produced from his water dragon,
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if you look towards the lower panels of the scan you meant to post, and only covered a small part of that entire cave. Water dragons in general assimilate more water than water walls due to it being an offensive attack that deals physical damage as stated in the databook, yet Kakuzu Arc Kakashi's suiton wallat the least matched Itachi's water dragon. War Arc Kakashi's suiton should be larger and wider in AoE, especially factoring in the stamina increase. Furthermore, Itachi could only produce that much water as an Edo, and edos have way, way more chakra to work with. Kakashi has two better water attacks than his water wall, which are said water dragon, and Water Release: Great Waterfall Technique, both attacks that assimilate more water than water walls. So the fact that Kakashi can produce more water than Itachi can at any given time, along with the fact that he has a wider suiton movepool to work with, means that Kakashi is comfortably above Itachi in the Water Release.
- While Itachi's katon should overall be better than Kakashi's seeing his fire style was able to contest with a CM boosted hebi Sasuke before getting pushed back [
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]. But Kakashi does have Riaton while Itachi has no 3rd element giving him a slight edge while Itachi has the better clones. Crow clones which in most cases should startle the enemy of block off their line off sight for a moment, aswell as exploding clones which will explode in Kakashi's face if he tries to destroy it in CQC
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which could cause minor harm or a good distraction.
- As for Kakashi he has regular shadow clones and ration clones which can cause paralysis for a short period of time. Overall all Itachi's clones are better than Kakashi's.
> I don't count Kakashi having katon even if the databook states that he has it, because we don't know his level of skill with it, nor what he can do. Doesn't really matter either since suiton or doton take care of it.
> It's not a slight margin either. Kakashi is a master raiton user, highly adept suiton user, and and an above average doton user, while Itachi is just an above average user of suiton and katon, all by feats. Not to mention that Kakashi's movepool is wider and more versatile.
> What is your basis for Itachi having better clones? Kakashi has access to kage bunshins, raiton kage bunshins, and suiton bunshins while Itachi has access to karasu bunshins, kage bunshins, and daibakuha bunshins. You say that karasu bunshins and daibakuha bunshins create good distractions and can cause harm, but I can say the exact same thing about Kakashi's bunshins.
Furthermore, Kakashi has the stamina to incorporate several bunshins into his strategies now instead of just one or two, and they can all use techniques. Also, I hope you know that Kakashi completely saw through Bunshin Daibakuha as well in part 1, so that isn't affecting him.
- As for Doton only mud wall is useful but that can be taken out by Itachi's katon, while the the hide like a mole technique shouldn't catch Itachi off guard due to superior reactions and correct me if I'm wrong but Itachi should be able to see Kakashi's chakra underground due to his sharingan.
. Look at where the shuriken made impact with the wall and notice the broken off portions of rock. And as for your hiding like a mole point, Itachi won't be looking at the ground until its too late like he already did in canon since he has to keep his eyes on the battlefield, and Kakashi can move very quickly underground due to the fact that he evaded Itachi's katon and created a kage bunshin. Anyways hiding like a mole is a jutsu meant to create a distraction or avoide attacks, but it can be used to set up a killing blow [
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]-[
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], and it doesn't have to be in that same fashion either.
Kakashi doesn't have katon. Kakashi > Itachi in suiton. Kakashi is more versatile, has a wider movepool, and has 3 elements he can use, including 2 at a high level, where as Itachi only has 2 that he has only a couple of moves for, and he isn't as skilled in elemental ninjutsu as Kakashi. That clones point isn't based on anything since Kakashi's clones can fulfill any purpose that Itachi's clones can. If anything, Kakashi is better than Itachi in usage of clones... And we also have the fact that Kakashi has the Rasengan.
So in the end, Kakashi is still >> Itachi in ninjutsu by power, skill, versatility, and usage.
-This one will be fun , Itachi when is come to CQC is superior and here's why. Itachi's ninja tool use is way better than Kakashis he was even able to shut down the rinnengan's linked vision with just kunais
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, which is better than anything Kakashi has done with ninja tools.
And this is so impressive... why? How does that put Itachi above Kakashi in kenjutsu? As far as I know, Itachi hit a bunch of stationary targets while maintaining himself out of the Rinnegan's collective line of sight. Kudos to him for being able to seemingly bend around the targets, but this isn't anything that is going to be a factor in a battle against a dojutsu user. Furthermore no, Itachi's ninja tool usage isn't better because Kakashi matched Zabuza Momochi's (kenjutsu master and member of the greatest generation of the 7 Swordsmen of the Hidden Mist) Kubikiribocho
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, matched Hidan's large and dangerous scythe with just said measly kunai while being exhausted and injured [
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], showed great skill in using the Kubikiribocho
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in kenjutsu [
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], and hell, even
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at a young age and that was before he got the sharingan. If you mean to say that Itachi can "spam kunai/shuriken from different directions and kill Kakashi GG", Kakashi can just block them all with suiton/doton, evade them all with hiding like a mole, or spam his own kunai and shuriken and enhance them with the Raikiri to make them more powerful than Itachi's orthodox weapons.
-Now here comes the main factor, reaction speed. Itachi has shown some of the best reaction feats in the manga, he was able to react to Kirin with his susano arguably one of them fastest lighting techniques in the manga who's speed get's hyped by Zetsu
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to be hundreds times faster than sound. The fact Itachi was able to react and activate to susano is amazing and puts his reaction far above Kakashi's.
This was a good feat and puts Itachi above Kakashi in reaction time, but its not anywhere near the margin that you say it is, especially when Kakashi has good reaction feats of his own [
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]-[
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]. The two already stalemated in taijutsu in canon, meaning that there isn't such a large disparity in reaction time, and that it won't be a big factor in CQC, considering that Kakashi also has the same acute 3T precog that Itachi has. I don't see how this will help Itachi that much.
There's also other examples like Itachi rather easily dodging an attack from Bee who came behind Itachi, take notice Itachi was already engaging the like of KCM Naruto in CQC at the same time this was happening
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. Not to mention that Itachi also was evading Bee's unorthodox 8 sword kenjustu style before having to retreat to Nagato. The same Bee who was bullying all 3 main fighters in Taka at CQC at the same time
Remind me when Naruto has better taijutsu feats at that point than Kakashi, and no, KCM doesn't enhance taijutsu (also do not forget the fact that Naruto wasn't even trying to win that scuffle since they were both talking over what transpired since Itachi's death). Remind me when any clown on Taka has better taijutsu than Kakashi, including Sasuke, who himself was getting clowned by Itachi during their fight [
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]-[
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]-[
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] (do you think Sasuke will fare better against an opponent of equal skill in Kakashi?). Kakashi has the physical parameters and skill necessary to evade or counter Bee's sword dance as well so I don't see how that helps you. A more solid feat than those to prove my case would be Kakashi keeping up with and trading blows with v2 Jinchuurikis only using the raikiri and hand to hand combat [
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]-[
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]. Keep in mind that v2 jins have corrosive chakra cloaks, chakra arms, and are all fairly fast.
- Raiton weapons do give him a good advantage but it's no use if Kakashi can't tage Itachi I CQC.
So I am to understand that Itachi is so blazing fast that he can dodge Kakashi's CQC, or that he can phase through attacks like Obito can? Kakashi can gain the edge through raiton streaming and flow at close range if they trade blows.
- Also Itachi's footspeed is much higher which should help in CQC, I'll address that later on.
The feats you posted aren't nearly enough to back this claim up, especially when the manga and databook already portrays both characters to be equal in CQC when we consider feats. They have already stalemated in CQC in canon [
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]-[
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]. Furthermore, Itachi didn't engage Bee in taijutsu, he just evaded him. Naruto was deliberately being defensive during their taijutsu fight, not a good comparison to make. The rest of the scans you posted only talk about ninja tools, not actual hand to hand combat which is different, and Kakashi has more feats and arguably better feats of using ninja tools since he actually engaged in direct combat rather than curving a bunch of kunais to hit stationary targets. I know that takes a lot of skill, but that isn't directly applicable to a straight CQC fight.
- Pretty sure sharingan genjustu gives you an immunity to visual genjustu not all genjustu below MS level, seeing how we've seen Uchiha get caught in things like sound genjustu.
No it won't. Sharingan will see through all genjutsu that isn't sound based, and you don't really have a basis for that except just saying that it'll work without giving a reason as to why it'll work.
-Itachi's speed is much higher than Kakashi, as you said Kakashi has received a 4.5 in speed while Itachi has a 5.
1. That score is outdated and doesn't account Kakashi's feats from mid Shippuden and above.
2. .5 isn't a big difference, nor is it enough to say that Itachi's speed is "much higher"
3. Kakashi has speed feats of his own, like the one ATD referenced EliteKakashi for, and the feat I already posted of him intercepting Raiton Gian. By feats, Itachi is slightly faster than Kakashi. Not at all much faster as some people have asserted...
- Itachi has also shown to be quite a bit faster than Base Bee and in one case would of blitzed him if not for KCM Naruto
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. If you look at Bee's speech bubble it clearly has a '!!?' in it, showing that he is rather surprised and he did not notice Itachi meaning he would of got blitzed if not for Naruto despite Nagato also shouting 'Above you'. Also Bee showed no signs of even knowing where Itachi was until he say behind you here
Ok, but Kakashi is slightly faster than Bee, and Bee already knew that Itachi was behind him as per his dialogue in the scan you posted.
-Considering that Base Bee was completely overwhelming Sasuke with nothing but swords and the fact that Kakashi hasn't show to be that much faster than Sasuke if not at all it's safe to assume Itachi is a lot faster than Kakashi. Also Bee was able to dodge Jugo's blow after getting hit by a chidori and was so fast to the point where Sasuke lost him and had to get Karin to track him
No it doesn't, because Sasuke very foolishly tried to engage Bee mid swords dance; Bee didn't outspeed Sasuke in any instance. That just showed that Bee takes a massive dump on Sasuke in CQC while Kakashi and Itachi can match or beat Bee. Yeah, Sasuke lost him in the smoke because Bee shunshin'd very far out of Sasuke's LoS during that time; why wouldn't Sasuke have Karin find out where he is? He wasn't anywhere near Sasuke, and it was more convenient to have Karin pick him out. These are some flawed comparisons.
- It's clear as day that Itachi is a cut above Kakashi in speed.
No it isn't, and even if it was, you failed to prove how or why. If you want another one of Kakashi's feats, he
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, bypassing all of the Jinchuuriki, and what made that impressive was how he made it there not far beihind a gated Might Gai, who is a known speed demon, especially using the Hachimon Tonkou.
- Not much to say here Kakashi did best Itachi in part 1 wher as in part 2 Itachi suspected it was a clone but Kakashi still get the benefit of the doubt. Though I would say exploding clones are just ass good as ration clones.
Absolutely not, considering that Itachi didn't notice it was a clone until after the clone let himself get caught in genjutsu. I know Itachi clone feinted Kabuto, but Kakashi clone feinted Pain, a Rinnegan user, as well. What sets these two apart is that Kakashi canonically fooled Itachi twice, and Kakashi WAS NOT fooled by bunshin daibakuha (he saw through it and saved Kurenai), so what makes posters think that Itachi is on Kakashi's level when it comes to clone feints? This is clearly false.
Kakashi > Itachi in clone feints.
- This is a tricky one here, Kakashi deciphered Itachi's Tsukuyomi but again after how long, he showed no signs of figuring out Itachi's move right after there battle and he could of worked it out after 2 years. This is bad for Kakashi seeing how that's his only solid feat.
No it isn't his only solid feat, did you read the OP?
-Itachi figured out how to stop CT as soon as he saw it, along with immediately coming up for a counter against Kabuto's sound genjustu, by using there own genjustu on each other to counter act the effect.
- While Kakashi had seen Obito's kamui before in action and most likely only came up with a counter by suspecting that Kamui was linked with his S/T technique.
Well, clearly you didn't read the OP very well or are just trying to downplay his feats since you didn't account for Kakashi's strategies against Itachi himself and Pain. You didn't account for his strategy against Kaguya that saved the damn world. Nothing puts Kakashi's feat against Obito below those two Itachi examples, two examples that Kakashi himself would have also figured out if you gave him the same cirumstance... Then we also have the fact that Shikamaru and Shikaku Nara were portrayed as the smartest people in NV, and Kakashi was said to be smarter, and even proved himself to be smarter than Shikamaru through feats, and on Shikaku's level due to their relative placements in the Shinobi Alliance. Itachi was never stated to be on their level. So, by feats AND portrayal, Kakashi is smarter than Itachi; Itachi being more phiolosophical doesn't make him smarter and I have no clue why people think this. Try again.
How Itachi wins:
-Itachi and Kakashi will most likely size eachother up with a couple of ranged attacks, where all of Kakashi's katons are countered and overpowered by Itachi's own Katons or suitons, where as Kakashi's suitons will take out any katon from Itachi and slightly overpower any suitons.
Kakashi doesn't have katon. I have no clue why Kakashi or even Itachi would waste his chakra using high level elemental techniques when they aren't really that necessary. Kakashi can just casually dodge his attacks via Hiding like a Mole or use a Doton wall as a distraction to mobilize his strategy. Kakashi's suiton is better than Itachi's as I have already shown.
At most Itachi will have to dodge any weakened ninjustu. This is where the fight turns ugly for Kakashi, Itachi will likely turn to CQC where Itachi gains the upper hands easily. Any ration weapons are dodged and any clones Kakashi makes are countered by Itachi's own clones, Kakashi may surprise Itachi with a feint but he's not landing a good hit due to vastly superior reactions. This fight ends with either Kakshi getting caught in finger gen, or during to heat of CQC Itachi weaves a shdow clones sign and overwhelms Kakashi.
Nothing you said here is supported at all by the manga when Kakashi can "see thru and counter genjutsu no diff!" and can stalemate Itachi in hand to hand combat. If anything, Itachi doesn't have much of an answer for raiton streaming at short range, and Kakashi has already set up his bunshin feints faster than Itachi was able to. I have no clue how Itachi can counter Kakashi's clones with his own considering that Kakashi can place his clones underground while using Hiding like a Mole, and Itachi's chakra reserves don't permit him to use many clones, while Kakashi can easily use several that can all use techniques. Furthermore, in CQC, Kakashi can just have a clonw surround Itachi with a big ass pool of water via Suijinheki or Daibakufu then combine it with his raiton streaming similar to how Darui did against Sasuke, which would paralyze him. Raiton clones do the job as well, or Kakashi can just have a Mizu Bunshin engage Itachi in CQC, and have the bunshin Raikiri himself which would electrocute Itachi. Or Kakashi could spam his own ninja weapons empowered with the Raikiri which Itachi can't do anything about to counter except dodge or weave hand seals in time to use katon which sets him up to be attacked from underground. Then we also have Lightning Wolf, which is a damn fast technique, can force Itachi to dodge and lead him into another attack by a bunshin. There are several options that Kakashi can utilize here.
Sorry dude, but I have officially declared war on the sick jokes that most Itachi fans are nowadays after reading the pile of hot garbage that I have read so far on this thread, so I won't be holding back on anybody. My foot's sleeping on the gas this time, no break pads, no such thing as last. I am legitimately ashamed that I have to be a fan of the same characters as these other people. I'm actually going to take a shower right now, so don't respond yet until you see that my post is completed, or maybe I'll send you a PM.
Dw I'm ashamed of Itachi-Base aswell, they bring shame to such a good character. If you reply tonight I won't reply until tomorrow, bout to play some GTA heists then go to sleep. Btw there might be some grammar errors and spelling mistakes my bad I rushed the post I will clean that shit up on other posts.
no itachi realized he was about to get his ass beat and used tsukuyomi. seriously though itachi is no better than sasuke in fights he spams ms just as much the only difference is he doesnt show his emotions.
All Uchihas spam MS. Its ****ing sad that thats what they're good for. Obito abuses his kamui, itachi abuses tsukuyomi, sauce abuses susanoo and ama, and Madz abuses susanoo. MS MS MS. If you ain't Uchiha, you're fodder that is why Hokage Kakashi is trash.
And to reply to OT, 3T Itachi wrecks 3T fodder kakashi. LOL.
its a good thread man, though i skimmed through your last response and i see you still saying itachi clowned sasuke in cqc when manga already shows it all happened in genjutsu regardless solid thread.
3T kakashi beat 3T itachi in canon that's why itachi resorted to MS and even praised kakashi for countering everything he threw...! don't know what was the need of proof here...! n about 30% itachi fight, it was kakashi's plan n plot otherwise original kakashi was sitting idle doing nothing other than cheering naruto...!
This is 3T vs 3T
Do you really think itachi is on whole other level ? Ridiculous.
Review your statement or show me manga scans which shows that 3T Itachi is on a whole other level.
Lol. I don't know how you guys do/did it. I tether WiFi from my phone to my laptop to come on and its so slow that posting from my phone is faster most of the time. I don't have the patience or will power to respond to walls of text on a phone and there's only so much I'm willing to post period.
I've seen you post a lengthy wall before and if that's nothing compared to old you, I'm scared to even know about those.
