So, there is a lot of talk about Hiruzen lately, and I feel that the unbiased comments regarding his abilities are very biased one way or another. Just wanted to put out an unbiased view on Hiruzen.
Firstly, to everyone who says that Hiruzen "in his prime" was the "God of Shinobi," I suppose that carries... some... weight. At the very least it means that he was very skilled. However, that statement only means that there are some people who considered him the most talented shinobi of that period and it is not a universal statement of all of the shinobi from that period or later. If someone called Kobi Bryant the greatest basketball player who ever lived, that doesn't necessarily make that statement true even if there is a large crowd who believes that. Even mass belief of a statement doesn't necessarily make it true. This sort conclusion is called an "ecological fallacy" in philosophy, which basically states that just because a bunch of people from the same area or background make a statement about someone, that doesn't make it true. Thus, because there is actually no information to go off of other than that statement and no battle data of his prime, any such arguments based on that comment are essentially invalid.
This is not to say that the statement is false, only that we can't prove it as true based solely on the argument that he was called a god. However, it is stated that he was able to master every jutsu of the hidden leaf (although, i think we can assume that doesn't include kekkei genkai). This sort of argument is more quantitative and can be used in intellectual discussion. Additionally, it would be safe to assume that he also knew "some" techniques from other villiages, as most high level shinobi know at least a few foreign jutsu.
Ultimately, any judgement made on Hiruzen needs be be made based almost solely on his battle with Oro. Additionally, in this evaluation, it needs to be determined whether the battle against Oro's edo hokages is considered Oro's ability or a seperate battle. Once those things are taken into account, it is possible to come to some sort of conclusion of Hiruzen's fighting abilities. Generally, I consider edo summons seperately from their summoner instead of adding it to their power, but you're opinion there may be different than mine. If we look solely at only Hiruzen vs only Oro, it is likely that Oro would have still won that fight or ended in a draw, whereby both shinobi died.
That being taken into account, we can evaluate Hiruzen against other opponents based on his battle data vs Oro. If we consider that in a straight fight, Oro is slightly stronger than old Hiruzen we can say that Hiruzen must be weaker than Itachi, because Oro is significantly weaker than Itachi. Additionally, we can probably make the argument that old Hiruzen is weaker than EMS Sasuke, as we can say that Sasuke is near Itachi's level (sasuke a little stronger than Itachi or sasuke a lot weaker is generally determined by either the point in the story, whether tatsuka sword and yata mirror are used, and whether Itachi is an Edo or not), but we should leave some level of statistical variant, whereby we state that Old Hiruzen is at most nearly equal with EMS Sasuke, but likely weaker. The list can continue on from there. I don't know if we currently have enough battle data on Tobi to make a statement about that matchup, but I feel like we can almost certainly say that he cannot defeat Madara, and thusly, Hashirama.
Finally, based on the previous arguments, we can assume that however Old Hiruzen fares against a given opponent, he will fare better as a young Hiruzen, however, to what degree he will fare better is unknown due to lack of data.
PS: I didn't factor in the battle vs the 1st and 2nd hokage because there seems to be a disparity between the abilities we saw in that battle and information about Hashirama recently coming to light. I believe that those are either because Oro was unable to effectively make use of their abilities or kishi had not yet fleshed out how strong he wanted to portray Hashirama later in the series... I tend to think the latter, but that's just me.
Ok everyone: Thoughts?
Firstly, to everyone who says that Hiruzen "in his prime" was the "God of Shinobi," I suppose that carries... some... weight. At the very least it means that he was very skilled. However, that statement only means that there are some people who considered him the most talented shinobi of that period and it is not a universal statement of all of the shinobi from that period or later. If someone called Kobi Bryant the greatest basketball player who ever lived, that doesn't necessarily make that statement true even if there is a large crowd who believes that. Even mass belief of a statement doesn't necessarily make it true. This sort conclusion is called an "ecological fallacy" in philosophy, which basically states that just because a bunch of people from the same area or background make a statement about someone, that doesn't make it true. Thus, because there is actually no information to go off of other than that statement and no battle data of his prime, any such arguments based on that comment are essentially invalid.
This is not to say that the statement is false, only that we can't prove it as true based solely on the argument that he was called a god. However, it is stated that he was able to master every jutsu of the hidden leaf (although, i think we can assume that doesn't include kekkei genkai). This sort of argument is more quantitative and can be used in intellectual discussion. Additionally, it would be safe to assume that he also knew "some" techniques from other villiages, as most high level shinobi know at least a few foreign jutsu.
Ultimately, any judgement made on Hiruzen needs be be made based almost solely on his battle with Oro. Additionally, in this evaluation, it needs to be determined whether the battle against Oro's edo hokages is considered Oro's ability or a seperate battle. Once those things are taken into account, it is possible to come to some sort of conclusion of Hiruzen's fighting abilities. Generally, I consider edo summons seperately from their summoner instead of adding it to their power, but you're opinion there may be different than mine. If we look solely at only Hiruzen vs only Oro, it is likely that Oro would have still won that fight or ended in a draw, whereby both shinobi died.
That being taken into account, we can evaluate Hiruzen against other opponents based on his battle data vs Oro. If we consider that in a straight fight, Oro is slightly stronger than old Hiruzen we can say that Hiruzen must be weaker than Itachi, because Oro is significantly weaker than Itachi. Additionally, we can probably make the argument that old Hiruzen is weaker than EMS Sasuke, as we can say that Sasuke is near Itachi's level (sasuke a little stronger than Itachi or sasuke a lot weaker is generally determined by either the point in the story, whether tatsuka sword and yata mirror are used, and whether Itachi is an Edo or not), but we should leave some level of statistical variant, whereby we state that Old Hiruzen is at most nearly equal with EMS Sasuke, but likely weaker. The list can continue on from there. I don't know if we currently have enough battle data on Tobi to make a statement about that matchup, but I feel like we can almost certainly say that he cannot defeat Madara, and thusly, Hashirama.
Finally, based on the previous arguments, we can assume that however Old Hiruzen fares against a given opponent, he will fare better as a young Hiruzen, however, to what degree he will fare better is unknown due to lack of data.
PS: I didn't factor in the battle vs the 1st and 2nd hokage because there seems to be a disparity between the abilities we saw in that battle and information about Hashirama recently coming to light. I believe that those are either because Oro was unable to effectively make use of their abilities or kishi had not yet fleshed out how strong he wanted to portray Hashirama later in the series... I tend to think the latter, but that's just me.
Ok everyone: Thoughts?
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