DSM Kabuto vs. EMS Madara

[Brother Numpsay]

Not seeing any kind of evidence that allows him to do such a thing, in fact all I see is you giving him Hashirama's feats, especially when Hashirama is the one who can keep up with someone fast enough to blitz SM Naruto. Kabuto's speed is meh in comparison.

Your reasoning of ABC logic is not working here. "Madara Blitz SM Naruto. Therefore Hashirama can blitz SM Naruto."

We can never determine how fast Hashirama really is since clashing with your opponent doesn't determine whos faster/equal to. Otherwise the faster opponent in Naruto series will never lose against a slower character in the series, which manga begs to differ.

To use Naruto as an example also doesn't help considering that Naruto in his fastest prime couldn't react to 3rd Raikage. Dodai end up helping Naruto evade his attack[

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][

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]. Now why would a slower character help a faster character move out of the way. The answer is "In Character". Naruto intelligence plays a role. When Naruto is dumbfound and is out of idea's in his situation, he is vulnerable in his case. This same can apply in his case when Madara blitz Sai and Naruto (When Naruto didn't move out of the way even though he react and attempt to block).

Now your stating Kabuto's speed is Meh.

What evidence shows Madara's speed and Hashirama much higher then Kabuto's and what makes Kabuto versatility lower then Hashirama.

Then Madara swings his blade and deflects Kabuto Sound Genjutsu along with wiping him off the face of the map.

Shockwave wouldn't carry the same priories as Wind Release, as Wind Release can carry more air then a energy compressed into a long cut.

Edit: Ill let UchihaNagashi defend his own case.

 

[KidGamer65]

Your reasoning of ABC logic is not working here. "Madara Blitz SM Naruto. Therefore Hashirama can blitz SM Naruto."

We can never determine how fast Hashirama really is since clashing with your opponent doesn't determine whos faster/equal to. Otherwise the faster opponent in Naruto series will never lose against a slower character in the series, which manga begs to differ.

If two people can go against each other in CQC and not get overwhelmed, and in fact, have to use Ninjutsu to break the stalemate, then they are on par when it comes to speed. If Hashirama was no where near Madara's level of speed, Madara obviously would have been able to blitz and overwhelm him at some point. This isn't just about clashing with your opponent, cause that's not all CQC is about.

@bold: Not seeing how this part is even relevant since all battles aren't just CQC.

To use Naruto as an example also doesn't help considering that Naruto in his fastest prime couldn't react to 3rd Raikage. Dodai end up helping Naruto evade his attack[

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][

You must be registered for see links

]. Now why would a slower character help a faster character move out of the way. The answer is "In Character". Naruto intelligence plays a role. When Naruto is dumbfound and is out of idea's in his situation, he is vulnerable in his case. This same can apply in his case when Madara blitz Sai and Naruto (When Naruto didn't move out of the way even though he react and attempt to block).

What in the world are you talking about? Naruto couldn't react to the 3rd Raikage? Do you know how ridiculous that sounds when he later did so in Sage Mode, and when fodder were able to react to him. Do you even realize why Dodai did what he did? Its not cause he couldn't react, its so they could gain distance from him and so he could shield him since Nukite is dangerous.

KCM Naruto already reacted to and evaded his faster father.

Intelligence has nothing to do with this, if Naruto could have evaded Madara coming at him he would have evaded him, but no, he couldn't. Its really that simple. All he could do was put up a guard (So he really didn't get blitzed, but that's beside the point) All I see in your posts are excuses.

Now your stating Kabuto's speed is Meh.

Try not to take my posts out of context.

-Compared to Madara's speed its meh.

What evidence shows Madara's speed and Hashirama much higher then Kabuto's and what makes Kabuto versatility lower then Hashirama.

Madara "blitzed" SM Naruto. Kabuto has no speed feat that surpasses that, simple. Versatility? His versatility is irrelevant since he isn't fast enough to evade the attack (Unless you have a feat that lets him do so) Hashirama's versatility isn't what let him evade the slash (Once might I add) anyway, so I don't need to prove that its higher than Kabuto's.

Shockwave wouldn't carry the same priories as Wind Release, as Wind Release can carry more air then a energy compressed into a long cut.

There is literally no difference, why would Temari's Fuuton carry more air when the AoE of Madara's attack is larger? He swings his blade, which blows away the Sound waves. Simple. Fuuton being different from a shockwave that tears the landscape apart and cuts distant Mountains isn't a reason why it won't work.

 

[Brother Numpsay]

If two people can go against each other in CQC and not get overwhelmed, and in fact, have to use Ninjutsu to break the stalemate, then they are on par when it comes to speed. If Hashirama was no where near Madara's level of speed, Madara obviously would have been able to blitz and overwhelm him at some point. This isn't just about clashing with your opponent, cause that's not all CQC is about.

@bold: Not seeing how this part is even relevant since all battles aren't just CQC.

Fair Point.

What in the world are you talking about? Naruto couldn't react to the 3rd Raikage? Do you know how ridiculous that sounds when he later did so in Sage Mode, and when fodder were able to react to him. Do you even realize why Dodai did what he did? Its not cause he couldn't react, its so they could gain distance from him and so he could shield him since Nukite is dangerous.

KCM Naruto already reacted to and evaded his faster father.

Intelligence has nothing to do with this, if Naruto could have evaded Madara coming at him he would have evaded him, but no, he couldn't. Its really that simple. All he could do was put up a guard (So he really didn't get blitzed, but that's beside the point) All I see in your posts are excuses.

@Bold is exactly my point. There is no reason for Dodai to help Naruto gain distance away from 3rd Raikage since Naruto's speed is superior. But manga shows twice that he did. The scan I showed was one and second time[

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]. This is why I brought In Character in this. Once Naruto fully understood what he can do to counter, he is able to react, via strategy with Sage Mode.

So basically using Sage Naruto as an example help as he was as dumbfound standing still as when facing 3rd Raikage.

Try not to take my posts out of context.

-Compared to Madara's speed its meh.



Madara "blitzed" SM Naruto. Kabuto has no speed feat that surpasses that, simple. Versatility? His versatility is irrelevant since he isn't fast enough to evade the attack (Unless you have a feat that lets him do so) Hashirama's versatility isn't what let him evade the slash (Once might I add) anyway, so I don't need to prove that its higher than Kabuto's.

Same as above. My case wasn't to state Kabuto speed surpasses that of Madara and Hashirama but and or=equal in department.

The evidence I can provide will be limited due to the area he has fought in.

There is literally no difference, why would Temari's Fuuton carry more air when the AoE of Madara's attack is larger? He swings his blade, which blows away the Sound waves. Simple. Fuuton being different from a shockwave that tears the landscape apart and cuts distant Mountains isn't a reason why it won't work.

Ok fair enough.

But I still can reconsider that Kabuto can predict his sword movement, due to Sage Sensor. Thus avoid the best spot as possible, and without effecting the sound it is traveling at.

 

[Chīkara]

DSM Kabuto wins this high diff.

 

[Icelerate]

This is going to be an interesting debate. Anyway EMS Madara wins mid difficulty at most.

 

[KidGamer65]

@Bold is exactly my point. There is no reason for Dodai to help Naruto gain distance away from 3rd Raikage since Naruto's speed is superior. But manga shows twice that he did. The scan I showed was one and second time[

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]. This is why I brought In Character in this. Once Naruto fully understood what he can do to counter, he is able to react, via strategy with Sage Mode.

The only way this helps your argument if you can prove that he wasn't able to react beforehand without help, but you can't do that so it doesn't help.

-Madara attacked him.
-He couldn't dodge.
-There is no evidence saying that he could have done so.

-3rd Raikage attacked.
-Dodai took the initiative, grabbed Naruto, and got away.
-Evidence shows that Naruto could have gotten away if he wanted to.

He didn't need to understand what he can do in order for him to react to his speed, that doesn't make sense.

So basically using Sage Naruto as an example help as he was as dumbfound standing still as when facing 3rd Raikage.

Yes it helps, cause he couldn't evade him. Him being dumbfounded doesn't change the fact he couldn't evade.

Same as above. My case wasn't to state Kabuto speed surpasses that of Madara and Hashirama but and or=equal in department.

No.

The evidence I can provide will be limited due to the area he has fought in.

I can't wait to hear this one.

But I still can reconsider that Kabuto can predict his sword movement, due to Sage Sensor. Thus avoid the best spot as possible, and without effecting the sound it is traveling at.

Predicting the sword's movement doesn't help as once the sword is swung his Sound is deflected. Using it right before he swings the blade isn't going to do anything.

 

[Brother Numpsay]

The only way this helps your argument if you can prove that he wasn't able to react beforehand without help, but you can't do that so it doesn't help.

-Madara attacked him.
-He couldn't dodge.
-There is no evidence saying that he could have done so.

-3rd Raikage attacked.
-Dodai took the initiative, grabbed Naruto, and got away.
-Evidence shows that Naruto could have gotten away if he wanted to.

He didn't need to understand what he can do in order for him to react to his speed, that doesn't make sense.

I don't see why not, what if Naruto was in motion like he was against 3rd Raikage

Yes it helps, cause he couldn't evade him. Him being dumbfounded doesn't change the fact he couldn't evade.

Of course it is as he was motionless just like when he was facing the 3rd. I hope you don't believe Madara is faster then 3rd Raikage

No.

:| SM Naruto isn't even a fast character to begin with.

I can't wait to hear this one.

Ok. Kabuto equaled with Itachi's speed in their fight (which Itachi has excellent Speed feats and a perfect 5 in Speed on Kishimoto book)

His speed almost made Uchiha lose track on his location[

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] and even planted a jutsu they weren't aware of yet [

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]. All that with the state of mind to capture.

Predicting the sword's movement doesn't help as once the sword is swung his Sound is deflected. Using it right before he swings the blade isn't going to do anything.

The Sound doesn't stay in the direction it is being directed once. Especially with a character who can transport himself places underground.

 

[WolfHaley]

No real counter for Kabuto's Genjutsu. Or white rage.

 

[shelke]

All intel? Madara wins zero difference. White Rage is rendered useless as Madara can simply attack the orb 'BEFORE' the dragon coils around it to produce the intense light and vibrations. That is literally the ONLY threat to Madara. With Intel, it means nothing. Inorganic Transmigration would do nothing to PS or any other form of Susano'o, as just as the surrounds start wiggling, Madara would know what is about to go down. I can't see any powerhouse Uchiha losing to Kabuto with Intel. DSM Kabuto gets slaughtered.

 

[Brother Numpsay]

White Rage is rendered useless as Madara can simply attack the orb 'BEFORE' the dragon coils around it to produce the intense light and vibrations.

How exactly? Will he do it before? Jump to PS, stabilized it then swing? Or do you have another method in mind?

Inorganic Transmigration would do nothing to PS or any other form of Susano'o, as just as the surrounds start wiggling, Madara would know what is about to go down

This jutsu doesn't even have to be played offensively as he can work defensibly too. Simply trip a limited mobile entity like PS and the job is done.

 

[shelke]

^ Who said anything about PS? All he needs is a lower-tier Susano'o to simply deflect the orb around which the White Dragon coils itself and it would be rendered useless. Inorganic Transmigration is "Animating" or a fancy term for "Giving Life" to the environment using Natural Energy. Which is why when Sasuke used Amaterasu and NE in the surrounding area was destroyed, the cave reverted back its original stage. Now all Madara needs to do is use a Susano'o with Legs. If the lowest Tier of Susano'o could protect against the 'Animated Environment' then V3 should do or heck Ribcage version would do as well.

He doesn't need PS to win against Kabuto.

 

[slimreaper]

No holding back? So Madara is going to jump to PS?

While Sussanoo is stabilizing, Kabuto gets his Sound Genjutsu prepared at the same time.

No matter how tall PS is, Sound will eventually travel there, as he can perfectly hear Onoki easily[

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].

Kabuto versatility will enable him to temporary dodge PS slash, as much as Base Harashima[

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]. Also PS shockwave precision is NOT perfect as for Madara to accurately aim for smaller targets he has to slash downward on them [

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] and [

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].

Eventually Kabuto hits him with Sound by foot or with Summoning as transportation.

Once Madara skyfalls when Sussanoo deactivates[

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] from the Genjutsu[

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]. Kabuto decapitates him[

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]

You should of made it IC fight so they can display all of their arsenals instead of their most valuable finisher.

basically tayuya solos madara? yeah bull shit

 

[Brother Numpsay]

All he needs is a lower-tier Susano'o to simply deflect the orb around which the White Dragon coils itself and it would be rendered useless.

How exactly will a close range deflect someone long range and especially when its also a moving object.

Inorganic Transmigration is "Animating" or a fancy term for "Giving Life" to the environment using Natural Energy. Which is why when Sasuke used Amaterasu and NE in the surrounding area was destroyed, the cave reverted back its original stage. Now all Madara needs to do is use a Susano'o with Legs. If the lowest Tier of Susano'o could protect against the 'Animated Environment' then V3 should do or heck Ribcage version would do as well.

Enton=/=Susanoo legs as it was the heat it produce that made it the case. If your unsupported claim state his leg can counter it why not anything else like Fire Release or simply stabbing the ground since all you need to do is "kill life" with any of those method

He doesn't need PS to win against Kabuto.

I am VERY interested for you make a case with PS restricted.

basically tayuya solos madara? yeah bull shit

No basically Kabuto's infused genjutsu solos madara

 

[Chīkara]

The only thing DSM Kabuto has to do is use Tayuya's genjutsu
and then use white rage, Kabuto is able to freely travel in such a cacophony
Madara ain't going to attack Kabuto in that situation

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[slimreaper]

No basically Kabuto's infused genjutsu solos madara

feats to suggest its stronger than tayuya's? and don't give me the whole Sage mode automatically makes genjutsu stronger shit

 

[shelke]

@EJBlack

Madara does have long range Magatamas, if you haven't noticed. They travel at the same speed as the Shurikens and Stakes thrown out of Kamui dimension.

I never said that, I tried to explain it to you that how it works. Also, a rib-cage Susano'o was able to tank it, just fine. Madara doesn't need anything else.

Already gave you the reasons.

 

[Brother Numpsay]

feats to suggest its stronger than tayuya's?

Sure, it trapped both Itachi and Sasuke who are experience of dealing with Genjutsu, while it also shut down their Sussanoo[

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]. Both of them need each other support[

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]. Madara has no method of doing it alone.

and don't give me the whole Sage mode automatically makes genjutsu stronger shit

I don't have to state "automatically". I can gave you Manga Facts[

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]

Madara does have long range Magatamas, if you haven't noticed. They travel at the same speed as the Shurikens and Stakes thrown out of Kamui dimension.

Ok you reminded me with this jutsu. Still doesn't effect how he can precisely aim at the orb when the Dragon can simply move around and that Kabuto wouldn't stand there and let it happen to. Once it does hit the Dragon, it will just go through as the entity is liquid/made from Kabuto's body fluid.

I never said that, I tried to explain it to you that how it works. Also, a rib-cage Susano'o was able to tank it, just fine. Madara doesn't need anything else.

Thats fine with tanking the jutsu, as its not only useful for only offensively.

Already gave you the reasons.

No you didn't you just stated two jutsus from Kabuto's arsenal, that you aren't even making effective counters for.

 

[Gold Lightning]

My mind is telling me Kabuto but my gut is telling me Madara.

I really don'r know. Kabuto's abilities are great against the Sharingan and Mangekyou, he can liquidify and and shed his skin, he's in no way easy to kill whatsoever. Genjutsu won't work on him but White Rage is pretty dangerous for Madara.

I'll say Kabuto.

 

[shelke]

^ The orb stays in the centre; it's the dragon that moves to coil around it. Aim, shoot, job done. I am talking about the Orb, NOT the dragon.

He only needs to tank it and attack Kabuto. There is no need to be on the offensive for Inorganic Transmigration.

 

[Brother Numpsay]

^ The orb stays in the centre; it's the dragon that moves to coil around it. Aim, shoot, job done. I am talking about the Orb, NOT the dragon.

Ok, so your statement is to wait for the dragon to coil. Kabuto blocks his attack with Inorganic Transmigration wall, and reverts it back when the light explodes.

Or Kabuto uses spider webs to repel the chakra beads/ deflect them back. While Kabuto spams layers and layers of webs on Sussanoo, which has no way to cut or burn them. And in you case PS is not needed, thus over.

He only needs to tank it and attack Kabuto. There is no need to be on the offensive for Inorganic Transmigration.

You didn't understand my sentence. I stated Inorganic Transmigration doesn't need to be used offensively.