Kakuzu the jabroni who can't physically even compete against Sakura stands the slightest chance against Sakura with ninjutsu attacks that can't do shit to her? .
Why is Sakura's feat from the last chapter relevant here? LMAO
Mysterium's last post was actually pretty good.
Good performance from both sides overall.
May the better debater win.
It was an amazing debate. I really underrated sakura before reading all that.
Ikratos didn't show anything i didn't know, since i love Kakuzu and i've debated using him a lot of times. My opinion stands firm, Kakuzu beats Sakura, but mysterious changed it from low diff to high diff.
@Ikratos: I think you did a great job on your 2nd and 3rd post.
Dealing with Katsuyu
Kratos mentioned that Katsuyu won't be very effective due to its acid being dodged by Manda who is far larger than Kakuzu which I can agree with. He also brought up Kakuzu's long ranged attacks meaning he doesn't have to be in harm's way. The problem I have with this part of his post is that Tsunade summoning Katsuyu for support reasons doesn't mean Katsuyu can't be used for offensive support. I also don't think the distance between Katsuyu and Manda was short due to the large size of both summons.
Close Quarter Combat
Kratos mentioned doton domu's offensive/defensive capability but he didn't explain why it will overcome the offensive power of Sakura's punch. Also he said that Kakuzu was strong enough to dent steel doors which would mean he can obliterate Sakura's skull. The problem I have with this is why would Sakura just stand there and let Kakuzu crush her skull? I do agree that doton domu is a solid counter to any of Sakura's punch to the tactics which won't do much, if any, damage to Kakuzu with or without doton domu. I also agree that Kakuzu's threaded body can soften Sakura's punches
Speed
While I agree Kakuzu's speed is definitely above average considering how he was able to intercept Kakashi from his blindside, you didn't necessarily compare it with Sakura's and only vaguely stated that he isn't inferior to Sakura in speed and reactions.
Ninjutsu
You went on to say that Sakura would get paralysed by gian and then her neck could get sliced apart which I can agree with as gian is large enough to completely obliterate her neck. I also liked how you used Kakuzu's featless water mask for bait purposes in order to catch Sakura off guard with the main threats, gian and his threads. You provided proof that they are fast considering Kakashi's statement and if Sakura gets caught, it gives Kakuzu the opportunity to finish her off. Not entirely sure if a katon + fuuton combo can obliterate a body especially when regeneration kicking in will heal the damage as it is being dealt.
Dealing with Regeneration
I liked your strategy of bombarding Sakura with attacks which keeps her away from Kakuzu. Not to mention you had a solid premise that it will cause Sakura to lose a lot of chakra whereas Kakuzu has shown no signs of exhaustion. I do believe you should have gone over Sakura's stamina feats more indepth to prove that she'd succumb to exhaustion faster than Kakuzu. If Kakuzu keeps up the pressure, I do agree it is completely feasible for him to eventually take out her head with raiton gian which would spell her end.
Mysterious' first post
Nice background information and all but a lot of the scans were missing. I'm well aware that you keep on copying and pasting the same info over and over again but at the very least I expect you to check and verify if your post is still correct.
Counter to Doton Domu
I agree Doton Domu is very overrated and just because it is hyped to tank most physical attacks, that doesn't mean every single physical attack is tanked. You brought up good examples of Gaara's ultimate defence being hyped in being absolute but even that got broken through. I agree Sakura's punch is way stronger than anything Domu has tanked and that with Byakugou, it would be even stronger. I also like how you exploited Kakuzu's inability to move after using domu which helps Sakura a lot in pummeling Kakuzu.
Raiton Gian
I agree that Sakura can dodge raiton gian nor will she get killed by it. You also brought up Katsuyu clones but compared them to Kakashi in speed. Seriously, your proof of Katsuyu clones being able to replicate Kakashi's feat is that they came out of nowhere even though we don't know from where they came and how much time it took. I hope you aren't implying Katsuyu clones are anywhere near Kakashi in speed, that is utterly ridiculous. Even though I can't see the scan where you claimed Sakura can see through whatever Katsuyu clones see through, if what you claim is true, that's a good counter to Sakura ever getting caught off guard.
Fuuton Atsugai
While you claimed it takes time to build up Atsugai, there was no proof to substantiate that it would be significant. I agree it won't have an effect on her and that she could probably dodge it anyway given her speed feats. Though I don't see how Katsuyu absorbing Sakura is a good idea when it makes Sakura a sitting duck and allows Kakuzu to corner her.
Katon + Fuuton combo
I agree that the large rupture of rock will protect Sakura from this technique rather easily.
Dealing with Kakuzu's threads
I agree that chakra scalpel could slice incoming threads and that she could pull Kakuzu towards her. I also agree that the shockwaves from striking the ground could create enough force to disperse the threads. You said Tsunade was able to cover her arms with chakra but she still got burnt and Tsunade isn't Sakura so I don't know why you brought her master. I'm not convinced that mere chakra can counter threads. While chakra can enhance the body's functions I don't see how external chakra will enhance body functions. I do agree that a Katsuyu clone can come out of nowhere and melt the threads or Kakuzu himself which also frees Sakura. You also mentioned that by restraining Sakura, Kakuzu puts himself near her so once she is freed, landing a direct hit on Kakuzu is feasible.
Dealing with masks
Given Sakura's speed feats, I agree that she can easily take down these masks but you ignore the fact that Kakuzu won't just stand there while this is happening. Also you say that Sakura blitzed the bald guy but ignore the fact he was fixated on Naruto and Sasuke. Sakura simply interfered in the battle, that doesn't mean she can blitz in a 1 on 1 confrontation. You did point out that Sakura has dealt with multiple puppets which does go to show she can dodge multiple masks but once again, what is Kakuzu doing?
Counter to Dealing with Katsuyu
You mentioned that Kratos was incorrect in that Tsunade was the first to summon Katsuyu so you refuted his claim of Tsunade summoning it in response to Manda. You mentioned that Katsuyu acid can be enhanced by Byakugou in a similar fashion to how Sakura transmitted her chakra into Obito. While I agree Katsuyu becomes a big threat if Sakura puts her chakra into Katsuyu, this contradicts with the previous strategy you outlined where Katsuyu would split and Sakura would take an active role in combatting Kakuzu and his masks.
Counter to Doton Domu
I agree that Sakura's punch breaches doton domu.
Speed
I agree that Sakura's speed and reaction feats are above Kakuzu's but Kratos proved that Kakuzu is no slouch in speed himself so I doubt the gap is that big. Also given Sakura's speed and reaction feats coupled with Katsuyu's "linked" vision, I agree that Kakuzu won't be able to catch her off guard in anyway.
Counter to dealing with regeneration
I wasn't convinced that Sakura can regenerate her head if it gets obliterated. If her brain is obliterated, she no longer has any mental capacity which means she can't think, move or function hence she's dead. She can't come back to life.
Kratos' 2nd post
Counter to Sakura's Strength
1. If you are referring to Sakura before getting her yin seal, how is her only denting a Juubi clone relevant here? If you are talking about Sakura creating a large gaping hole in the Juubi clone, how is that merely denting it?
2. While Sakura had added momentum when she made her big leap, how is the additional momentum even a significant factor in her DC?
3. You make a good point considering now it isn't just Sakura's momentum, but Kaguya's as well who has way more momentum than Sakura.
4. That is correct.
Counter to Sakura's Speed
1. I don't think he's implying that Sakura is the only one who can do shunshin. He's implying that Sakura has loads more chakra to use in her shunshin and given her chakra control, her shunshin must be insane at this point.
2. Why not? He's not talking about Sakura blitzing Juubi clones. He's talking about Sakura being able to leap as fast as something she punches which allows her to close distance very fast.
3. I agree, Naruto and Sasuke are far faster than Sakura. Though you are incorrect when it comes to Naruto's statement as he hyped both the speed of the absorption and the speed of their movement. Still it is a better speed feat than any of Kakuzu's.
4. I highly doubt it.
5. I agree, an off panel speed feat where your opponent doesn't know you are about to strike is barely noteworthy.
Counter to Sakura's Chakra
I agree that Kaguya has far more chakra than Sakura. Arguing otherwise is idiotic.
Counter to Katsuyu
I'm not too sure if katon+fuuton can completely vaporise Katsuyu and comparing to Kakashi's far smaller suiton wall is fallacious as his suiton wall is far smaller and less durable compared to Katsuyu. I agree that playing dead might not work due to Kakuzu's range advantage. I agree poison balls and weapons will be useless. I agree that Sakura can't deflect Kakuzu's fire tech like Tsunade did because of the size of Kakuzu's techniques being much larger than the fire dragon missiles.
Countering Mysterious' counter to doton domu
I disagree that Sakura needs to jump in order to use a powerful punch. I do agree that doton domu allows Kakuzu to tank the impact coming from the ground though.
Countering Mysterious' counter to raiton gian
I agree that Sakura didn't dodge Kaguya's chakra arms and that acid falling to the ground isn't as fast as raiton gian. Regardless, I don't see this as sufficient proof that Sakura can't sidestep raiton gian. I would like proof that Sakura needs to focus to see what Katsuyu can see. I do agree that Kakuzu's katon + fuuton combo would take down countless Katsuyu minis. I don't see why regeneration won't help survive burns when they've done so with Tsunade.
Countering Mysterious' counter to fuuton Atsugai
You proved Kakuzu's hand seal speed is very fast which debunks Mysterious' point of them giving Sakura an opening. No proof that Atsugai would wipe out Sakura's body or be fatal to her. You also didn't explain how it will change the tide of the favour in Kakuzu's favour.
Countering Mysterious' counter to Katon
No reason why it won't.
Kakuzu's threads
I agree that Sakura won't be able to pull Kakuzu if her joints are restrained unlike the case with Sasori. At close range, I agree Sakura wouldn't react to the threads much like Kakashi. I agree that merely channeling chakra doesn't cut threads because that chakra isn't a slicing attack. I agree that as the fight prolongs, Katsuyu will have been burnt so Sakura can't always rely on Katsuyu to get her out of Kakuzu's binds especially towards later on in the battle. I don't remember Mysterious comparing Naruto's bunshin feints with Sakura, let's not put words into his mouth.
Countering Sakura dealing with multiple hearts
I agree that Kakuzu's hearts are above the fodder puppets Sakura fought. You are correct that Kakashi was never able to land a hit on a mask. Sakura too will have trouble landing a hit. I don't recall Mysterious talking about Sakura bunshin feinting.
Countering Sakura enhancing Acid slime
You did well to prove that Katsuyu runs on the summoner's power already but this leaves holes in your argument considering part one rusty Tsunade isn't as powerful as current Sakura so you're basically claiming Katsuyu will spit more acid than it already did. Also I'm not 100% convinced that Sakura can't further enhance Katsuyu much like she did to Obito, Darui, etc. You claimed that Tsunade summoned Katsuyu to protect Naruto but it was used in combat right afterwards.
Threads VS Punch
I agree that Sakura needs something hard for her punch to explode but Kakuzu has hearts inside which will be unprotected when Sakura's punch goes through the threads.
Headshot with gian
I agree if Sakura's head gets hit by gian, it would get obliterated and Sakura is no longer alive and will lose control of all her body functions including Byakugou.
Mysterious' 2nd post
Defending Sakura's punch
I agree that Sakura doesn't need to jump to do a powerful punch. You are right that Juubi clones are elastic so they won't get obliterated but Kakuzu's doton domu is a different story which you explained very well. Anyway it is good you ended up admitting your mistakes such as the fact that Kaguya was bleeding because of Kakashi, not Sakura.
Defending Sakura's speed
1. You should have quantified Sakura's shunshin via power scaling or feats. I do agree that Sakura can send a lot of chakra to her feat to boost her shunshin.
3. Yes, you are indeed correct when it comes to the speed of those arms.
5. I agree that even blindsiding characters can work as speed feats as some characters have dodged others attacking from their blind spot. You also pointed out that Sakura was no where near the guy but he wasn't even able to finish his attack before Sakura intercepted him.
Don't know why you didn't counter 2 and 4 but I guess those were just baseless assumptions on Kratos' part without any proof to substantiate his claims.
In Defence of Sakura's chakra reserves
I hope you aren't claiming Sakura>=Kaguya in chakra reserves. I do agree Sakura's chakra reserves are incredible though, much better than Kakuzu's.
Defending Katsuyu
You showed that Katsuyu clones popped out of nowhere although I'm not sure how that proves they are particularly fast but I guess they can move around. If I'm hiding behind a bush and I pop out of nowhere, does this mean I'm fast? Obviously not. You are trying to defend Katsuyu clones' prowess but then claim Sakura will be boosting Katsuyu's acid. Are you trying to say Sakura will be in contact with just one clone and boost that? You said Katsuyu is just support and not the main threat but you are making Sakura the support who is boosting Katsuyu while Katsuyu is acting like the main fighter. Kratos claims Katsuyu would get one shotted by the katon + fuuton combo but you brought up its durability against corrosive acid even though corrosive burns =/= fire. Please post scans of Katsuyu's telepathic communication although I do remember it having that ability.
Countering Doton Domu
Why did you bring up doton domu and genjutsu? Sakura doesn't have genjutsu, please stick to the main point.
Sakura's speed VS raiton gian
You claimed that the acid moves instantaneously which is beyond flawed. You also didn't counter Kratos' point on lightning being faster than acid falling down. I do agree that since the portal was close and the fact that Sakura needed to save Obito, it becomes an impressive speed feat.
Counter to Katon + fuuton combo
You countered this successfully by both stating the rocks will protect her and that her regeneration counters the burns.
Counter to Atsugai
You successfully countered it by saying that it won't kill Sakura as it is just air pressure. Kratos didn't provide proof that it will obliterate Sakura anyway.
Counter to Threads
How does Sakura pull Kakuzu closer if she is restrained? Why are you avoiding in comparing Kakashi to Sakura in speed/reactions? If Kakashi couldn't avoid them, Sakura will have to be above Kakashi in speed to avoid them so unless you can prove that Sakura is above Kakashi, the same is bound to happen to her. Kratos was mentioning that Sakura emitting chakra from her skin won't cut the threads which is correct but now you are talking about chakra scalpel even though Sakura will be restrained and unable to move.
Dealing with multiple opponents
Well you said that the masks don't have feats of reacting to Sakura and you are right that Kratos didn't post any reaction feats from them and simply stated Kakashi couldn't tag them. Well Tenten used ranged attacks so using her as an example isn't good. You should have used Chouji instead. You said Sakura doesn't have an issue in dealing with multiple opponents but the level of the opponents do matter.
Defending Katsuyu
I agree that Katsuyu's healing abilities are affected directly by Tsunade/Sakura's Byakogou seal, not its acid abilities because Byakogou seal has nothing to do with acid. You also proved that Tsunade meant to fight with Katsuyu and she didn't summon it to protect Naruto as she sent Shizune to do so.
Sakura's punch VS threaded body
I don't agree that Kakuzu will disperse like a pillow with feathers. He is way too durable for that. You used the Juubi clone's elasticity to claim that it wasn't obliterated but when it comes to Kakuzu's threaded body, you seem to ignore this. I do agree that Sakura can take out any heart inside Kakuzu but that is only one heart per punch. She can't oneshot Kakuzu in any way.
Raiton gian to the brain
I'm unconvinced that Sakura can survive a raiton gian to the brain. Shino's brain wasn't obliterated, pretty sure it was still intact. Just because Byakogou allows immediate healing doesn't mean it has no limits and that Sakura is completely unstoppable. I do believe Sakura can dodge it but you didn't do a good job in proving so.
Kratos' 3rd post
Counter to Sakura's Punch
You say Kakuzu won't tank Sakura's punch but then go on to claim it won't have an effect. This is a contradiction. You go on to say that Sakura needs momentum to make her punch strong but you used speculation to say that if Sakura had done her jumping punch, the Juubi clone would have turned to goo just because you don't think they are durable enough to tank the second strike. You can't prove that the first and second strike are totally different in power though. You basically used speculation which is not clear cut proof. Then in the second scan, you show a scan where Sakura has her palm on the Juubi clone but CES comes from the fist, not the palm of the hand, so I don't see your point. In the last sentence, you claim that Sakura will only be able to release minor destruction without momentum but Mysterious proved that the destruction comes from chakra control, not physical strength or momentum. You claim Sakura has the momentum advantage when Kaguya flew right into her punch. This is correct but it's still a nice strength feat considering only a strong punch can crack Kaguya's horn.
Speed
You say it takes a small amount of chakra to use shunshin but this actually proves Mysterious' point that Sakura's shunshin is bound to be insane because she can put much more. You did prove that Sakura was far away from the rabbit so her feat isn't as good as Naruto. You then ruined it when you said anyone could have done the same as Sakura without any proof. Not to mention Sakura not being near the rabbit doesn't mean she wasn't near the chakra arm of the rabbit which stretched out towards the ground.
When talking about Kakuzu's speed, you display double standards and give him his feat in sucker punching Kakashi yet ignore Sakura sucker punching Shin. Also the whole point of bringing Kakuzu not being able to catch Shikamaru off guard from behind is to show you that Sakura has sucker punched far superior opponents to Shikamaru, who Kakuzu failed. You originally claimed Kakuzu is not inferior to Sakura in speed or reactions but were never able to prove in the debate that this was the case.
I agree that the acid dropping from Kaguya's dimension isn't as fast as raiton gian. Also you are correct that it was no where near instant.
Sakura's chakra reserves
You successfully proved that what Kaguya did was far superior to Sakura in terms of chakra reserves. Even still, she has way better reserves than Kakuzu.
Katsuyu
I agree, Katsuyu clones aren't particularly fast. You finally provided proof that Sakura needs to focus to see what Katsuyu sees. Not too sure why you brought up clothes when a naked Naruto isn't going to be shown. Using clothes in an argument is shaky. You could have countered the flawed argument in many other ways. You claim that Tsunade in part one was rusty but that had no impact on her chakra but she clearly didn't have as much as in Shippuden.
Katon + Fuuton combo
No reason why Sakura can't block it. No reason to believe it will instantly obliterate her.
Katsuyu Acid Amplification
Your point was debunked when it was shown that Katsuyu was talking about healing as spitting acid has nothing to do with Sakura/Tsunade as that is Katsuyu's own ability. Further proof is when that small katsuyu had acid which was powerful enough to melt Orochimaru yet couldn't heal.
Fuuton Atsugai
I don't agree that this will cripple Sakura nor did you provide sufficient proof that this will be the case. I do agree that Kakuzu can take the advantage if Sakura decides to hide inside a Katsuyu clone which is a bad mistake. Regardless, Sakura isn't getting one shotted if she is absorbed by Katsuyu clone.
Kakuzu's threads
I agree that what caught a proficient sharingan user will also catch Sakura. I don't agree that using Kakashi is overestimating Sakura or else if you don't use Kakashi, what feat does Kakuzu have that lets him tag someone as fast as Sakura? I agree that if Sakura is restrained, she won't be able to cut the threads unless she can physically overpower their hold. Byakugou would let her add more chakra to the blade which would sharpen it as chakra sharpens blades.
Bunshin feints
Mysterious' usage of what you call bunshin feints aren't actually bunshin feints but the usage of power in numbers to keep Kakuzu busy so I don't see why you are accusing him of giving Naruto's bunshin feints to Sakura.
Reaction of the Masks
Don't see how edo Kakuzu is any different from regular alive Kakuzu. I can agree that Sakura will have trouble landing hits on the hearts if Kakashi did but you are confusing reaction speed and timing with raw speed. Regardless, Kakashi is pretty fast in that regard as well.
Sakura's punch VS threaded body
I can agree that Kakuzu won't get harmed if he lets Sakura's punch go through and if he moves his heart away but can he do that in the heat of battle while Sakura is punching him? Doubt it and insufficient proof was given to back up your claim.
Raiton gian
Does Sakura need to be as fast as Kakashi to dodge raiton gian? Is there proof that Sakura is slower than EP2 Kakashi? I do agree that without sharingan, she won't be able to tell when the lightning bolt is fired until after it is fired. I agree that raiton gian to the brain spells Sakura's end.
Mysterious' 3rd post
Sakura's punch
Your explanation on how jumping didn't increase Sakura's punch power was spot on.
Sakura's Speed
Once again, your explanation on how Sakura reacted to extremely fast chakra arms was spot on. You proved that even attacking from a blind spot is a speed feat when characters have shown they can react to attacks from behind them.
I agree that Sakura saving Obito from the acid is a great speed feat but you didn't prove the acid is as fast as gian which Kratos said.
Sakura's chakra
This is pretty pointless as he's already agreed that Sakura has great chakra reserves. You should have just admit that Kaguya has way more chakra but instead you keep on comparing Sakura to Kaguya when Kaguya used way more techs than Sakura did as outlined in your post.
Katsuyu's speed
Not wholly convinced this is a speed feat and you explained this too late. No timeframe was given so how can you say it did this in mere seconds? None of this proves that Katsuyu can react to Kakuzu's attacks either when Ino-Shika-Cho had trouble despite them being faster than Katsuyu clones.
Physical VS Non physical attacks
How is fire a physical attack? Don't confuse physical and non physical attacks but none of this matters.
The clothing argument
You refuted the argument that Naruto's clothes shares Katsuyu's durability feats.
Telepathy
There wasn't a single scan where you proved that the slug users are telepathically linked to Katsuyu without being focussed.
Fire + wind combo
You proved it can be effortlessly blocked while Kratos couldn't prove it would incapacitate Sakura even if it hit her.
Raiton gian
I guess Sakura can dodge raiton gian but Katsuyu isn't reacting. Regardless, you did prove she can tank it but Kratos said she'd get numbed which you didn't counter.
Acid slime enhancement
You proved that Katsuyu takes in chakra to use for medical ninjutsu as its their own medical chakra which is used to heal whereas Katsuyu acid is not the same. You proved that it can keep Kakuzu busy, making him waste chakra.
Kakuzu's threads
You said these are dodged because Kaguya's hands are faster than them but Sakura could not dodge Kaguya chakra arms either and from a greater distance. You claim Sakura is different from Kakashi but if Sakura isn't faster than Kakashi, how is Sakura dodging them indefinitely?
I do now agree that Sakura can cut if she loosens herself but you didn't provide strength feats to back your claim. You successfully proved that chakra scalpel will cut through threads and that they can be enhanced.
Sakura dealing with multiple masks
Kratos was saying if Kakashi couldn't land a hit on the masks, how will Sakura be able to?
Sakura VS Kakuzu's threaded body
Don't see any proof why Sakura will be able to annihilate Kakuzu and no counter to Kratos' argument.
Raiton gian to the brain
Yes the brain is an organ but if it is completely obliterated, it can't be recovered as there is nothing to regenerate from.
Verdict
Katsuyu
Mysterious made a large amount of exploits with Katsuyu such as its ability to tank Kakuzu's katon which Kratos countered shamefully. Mysterious proved that acid slime can be enhanced to a whole other level and while Kratos didn't bother to point out that Sakura is left open to attacks and can't go on the offensive herself if she is busy enhancing Katsuyu or that if Katsuyu splits, this strategy becomes useless. Kratos did point out that Katsuyu clones aren't particularly fast.
Overall Mysterious won here.
Regeneration
Kratos kept on claiming that Kakuzu's elemental jutsu would hinder Sakura immensely but didn't provide proof that it was the case. On the other hand, Mysterious overrated it immensely by stating that Sakura is invulnerable to any damage.
This was a draw
Offensive attacks
Mysterious proved that Sakura's punch will be strong whether she jumps or not and that she can enhance Katsuyu acid to a whole other level. Kratos on the other hand failed to prove that Kakuzu's jutsus will do significant damage to either Sakura or Kakuzu. The only thing he proved was that raiton gian to the face will kill Sakura.
Overall Mysterious won here.
Speed
Mysterious' analysis of Sakura's speed was more elaborative than Kratos' analysis of Sakura and Kakuzu's speed combined. Overall, I was more convinced that Sakura is above kakuzu in speed as opposed to her being equal to or inferior to Kakuzuz.
Mysterious won here.
Kakuzu's threads
Mysterious said Sakura would dodge the threads continuously and made different comparisons which did not work. He was reluctant to compare Kakashi to Sakura even though he couldn't prove Sakura is above Kakashi in speed to make the claim that she can dodge Kakuzu's threads. Kratos ended up proving that Sakura would be restrained completely whereas Mysterious failed to provide proof that Sakura's physical strength can overpower those threads. Kratos also proved that Sakura can't take advantage of those threads and that they can allow Sakura's punch to faze through.
Kratos won here.
Overall: This was a close debate but Mysterious won. While Kakuzu's threads may be the game changer, as long as Katsuyu is still on the battlefield, it can set Sakura free or attack Kakuzu head on. Due to Kratos not dealing with Katsuyu properly, I'm inclined to give this fight to Sakura based on the arguments presented.
Is it ok to give my thoughts on some of the faults that I personally found in Icelerate's points? Your verdict is fully respected, but I wanted to give my thoughts on some of the things I found faulty.
By no way or means I'm trying to change your mind on your verdict. Just some thoughts on the points you made. I know you spent a great deal of time on this, so you don't have to read it.
Overall, It wasn't a bad debate. I feel like I didn't clarify some of the information, which comes back to my own carelessness.
Dealing with Katsuyu
Kratos mentioned that Katsuyu won't be very effective due to its acid being dodged by Manda who is far larger than Kakuzu which I can agree with. He also brought up Kakuzu's long ranged attacks meaning he doesn't have to be in harm's way. The problem I have with this part of his post is that Tsunade summoning Katsuyu for support reasons doesn't mean Katsuyu can't be used for offensive support. I also don't think the distance between Katsuyu and Manda was short due to the large size of both summons.
Ninjutsu I disagree that a piercing jutsu like gian can cut Sakura in half as piercing someone doesn't cut them. You went on to say that Sakura would get paralysed by gian and then her neck could get sliced apart which I can agree with as gian is large enough to completely obliterate her neck. I also liked how you used Kakuzu's featless water mask for bait purposes in order to catch Sakura off guard with the main threats, gian and his threads. You provided proof that they are fast considering Kakashi's statement and if Sakura gets caught, it gives Kakuzu the opportunity to finish her off. Not entirely sure if a katon + fuuton combo can obliterate a body especially when regeneration kicking in will heal the damage as it is being dealt.
Counter to Sakura's Strength
1. If you are referring to Sakura before getting her yin seal, how is her only denting a Juubi clone relevant here? If you are talking about Sakura creating a large gaping hole in the Juubi clone, how is that merely denting it?
I was strictly talking about the time Sakura punched the clone. Putting a
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on something way softer than is diamond is relevant here.
Counter to Katsuyu
I'm not too sure if katon+fuuton can completely vaporise Katsuyu and comparing to Kakashi's far smaller suiton wall is fallacious as his suiton wall is far smaller and less durable compared to Katsuyu. I agree that playing dead might not work due to Kakuzu's range advantage. I agree poison balls and weapons will be useless. I agree that Sakura can't deflect Kakuzu's fire tech like Tsunade did because of the size of Kakuzu's techniques being much larger than the fire dragon missiles.
I said it can vaporize Katsuya because it not even water, fire's natural counter, could do anything against Fire/Wind combo. Later on in my third post I said that even Naruto's clothes were fine after he transformed. And you said that because naked Naruto won't appear in these types of manga. But not even Naruto's boots or even forehead protector were damaged or rotted away. so that's why I said Katsuya surviving Naruto's transformation was iffy.
Countering Mysterious' counter to fuuton Atsugai
You proved Kakuzu's hand seal speed is very fast which debunks Mysterious' point of them giving Sakura an opening. No proof that Atsugai would wipe out Sakura's body or be fatal to her. You also didn't explain how it will change the tide of the favour in Kakuzu's favour.
I honestly didn't think that I need to clarify for Atsugai when it was destroyed rocks and trees. It can break bones like nothing.
Kratos' 3rd post
Counter to Sakura's Punch
You say Kakuzu won't tank Sakura's punch but then go on to claim it won't have an effect. This is a contradiction. You go on to say that Sakura needs momentum to make her punch strong but you used speculation to say that if Sakura had done her jumping punch, the Juubi clone would have turned to goo just because you don't think they are durable enough to tank the second strike. You can't prove that the first and second strike are totally different in power though. You basically used speculation which is not clear cut proof. Then in the second scan, you show a scan where Sakura has her palm on the Juubi clone but CES comes from the fist, not the palm of the hand, so I don't see your point. In the last sentence, you claim that Sakura will only be able to release minor destruction without momentum but Mysterious proved that the destruction comes from chakra control, not physical strength or momentum. You claim Sakura has the momentum advantage when Kaguya flew right into her punch. This is correct but it's still a nice strength feat considering only a strong punch can crack Kaguya's horn.
Where are you getting the bold from? CES comes from concentrating chakra in hands. Not from fists. If she can concentrate chakra on her fists and release, she can concentrate chakra on her palms and release chakra to cause the same damage. There is no need to punch.
Katsuyu
I agree, Katsuyu clones aren't particularly fast. You finally provided proof that Sakura needs to focus to see what Katsuyu sees. Not too sure why you brought up clothes when a naked Naruto isn't going to be shown. Using clothes in an argument is shaky. You could have countered the flawed argument in many other ways. You claim that Tsunade in part one was rusty but that had no impact on her chakra but she clearly didn't have as much as in Shippuden.
It was obliterating rocks and trees. Burns through flesh like nothing.
Fuuton Atsugai
I don't agree that this will cripple Sakura nor did you provide sufficient proof that this will be the case. I do agree that Kakuzu can take the advantage if Sakura decides to hide inside a Katsuyu clone which is a bad mistake. Regardless, Sakura isn't getting one shotted if she is absorbed by Katsuyu clone.
I thought the databook an the manga scans that i posted is enough to say that he can cripple her.
Sakura's punch VS threaded body
I can agree that Kakuzu won't get harmed if he lets Sakura's punch go through and if he moves his heart away but can he do that in the heat of battle while Sakura is punching him? Doubt it and insufficient proof was given to back up your claim.
not seeing naked Naruto is a funny point when we've seen people without clothes in shounen.
Verdict
Katsuyu
Mysterious made a large amount of exploits with Katsuyu such as its ability to tank Kakuzu's katon which Kratos countered shamefully. Mysterious proved that acid slime can be enhanced to a whole other level and while Kratos didn't bother to point out that Sakura is left open to attacks and can't go on the offensive herself if she is busy enhancing Katsuyu or that if Katsuyu splits, this strategy becomes useless. Kratos did point out that Katsuyu clones aren't particularly fast.
Overall Mysterious won here.
Regeneration
Kratos kept on claiming that Kakuzu's elemental jutsu would hinder Sakura immensely but didn't provide proof that it was the case. On the other hand, Mysterious overrated it immensely by stating that Sakura is invulnerable to any damage.
This was a draw
Offensive attacks
Mysterious proved that Sakura's punch will be strong whether she jumps or not and that she can enhance Katsuyu acid to a whole other level. Kratos on the other hand failed to prove that Kakuzu's jutsus will do significant damage to either Sakura or Kakuzu. The only thing he proved was that raiton gian to the face will kill Sakura.
Overall Mysterious won here.
Speed
Mysterious' analysis of Sakura's speed was more elaborative than Kratos' analysis of Sakura and Kakuzu's speed combined. Overall, I was more convinced that Sakura is above kakuzu in speed as opposed to her being equal to or inferior to Kakuzuz.
Mysterious won here.
Kakuzu's threads
Mysterious said Sakura would dodge the threads continuously and made different comparisons which did not work. He was reluctant to compare Kakashi to Sakura even though he couldn't prove Sakura is above Kakashi in speed to make the claim that she can dodge Kakuzu's threads. Kratos ended up proving that Sakura would be restrained completely whereas Mysterious failed to provide proof that Sakura's physical strength can overpower those threads. Kratos also proved that Sakura can't take advantage of those threads and that they can allow Sakura's punch to faze through.
Kratos won here.
Overall: This was a close debate but Mysterious won. While Kakuzu's threads may be the game changer, as long as Katsuyu is still on the battlefield, it can set Sakura free or attack Kakuzu head on. Due to Kratos not dealing with Katsuyu properly, I'm inclined to give this fight to Sakura based on the arguments presented.
Also somewhere you said that Sakura being further away from Kaguya's rabbit form and dodging her hands does not invalidate her speed feat, which in this
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you don't see chakra hands being all over the place, until a
I'm just going to jump straight to the battle and how Kakuzu fares against Sakura.
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Dealing with Katsuya
Katsuya is one of the most effective support animals out there, but she is not designed for a one-on-one battle with opponents smaller than herself. Nor she is designed to deal effective blows to opponents, acting merely as a support.
Tsunade only summoned her to
1. deal with Orochimaru's Manda
2. to use Katsuya as the medium for the usage of her seal for a dying Naruto.
If Sakura chooses to let Katsuya have a part in the fight it'll be worthless against Kakuzu because
1. Her attacks aren't fast enough to even hit Manda, an animal hundreds of times bigger than Kakuzu, and within a fairly
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.
2. Katsuya can use the sticky property of her body to hold an opponent in his/her place, but it is ineffective because of Kakuzu's long range attacks and their huge span.
Close Quarter Combat
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Kakuzu's hardening technique would be a good use for the times he might be in a pinch. It is said to be as hard as diamond and is extremely hard to overcome without raiton.
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But this technique can help Kakuzu greatly with dealing heavy damage to Sakura. Kakuzu was strong enough to dent steel doors with a blow.
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He can easily crack skulls and bones with a single punch.
Main perk of this technique is that it won't let Kakuzu receive any damage if Sakura tries one of her jumping punches.
Kakuzu also has great speed.
He was able to intercept Kakashi before him noticing
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Kakashi was already moving here with his Raikiri active but Kakuzu was fast enough to intercept him before anyone there could notice him standing up after the initial Raikiri.
He was able to travel a distance to reach kakashi before he hit the ground and catch him.
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Kakuzu in in no shape of form inferior to Sakura in speed or reaction time.
Kakuzu can also use
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to reduce the impact of her punch, as his threads are soft and flexible.
Ninjutsu
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Kakuzu is able to perfom high level ninjutsu by chanelling his own chakra to the hurt of the shinobi he has killed.
His attacks are intense enough to wipe out trees and rocks in an instant.
His wind style on its own was able to clear out a portion of a forest along with the rocks.
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Databook of the technique
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Kakuzu's fire release is intense enough to disintegrate trees instantly
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Kakuzu's lightning technique while not being focused as a single beam is as strong as Kakashi's raikiri. It is able to mince and cut body parts if hit. It can be used as a support for other finishing ninjutsus. Kakuzu can use Gian to hinder Sakura's movements and when used to its full potential can kill Sakura by chopping her neck off.
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Kakuzu also has water release monster at his disposal, but since we don't know what it can do I'll use it as a distraction to sakura, and as a bait for other monsters to do the damage.
Kakuzu's threads are also helpful to him in cqc. He was able to catch Kakashi offguard with it. Kakashi, a sharingan user, even claimed that it was too fast.
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Kakuzu did it and was able to pull out a fire-wind combo before Kakashi could do anything. This combo is strong enough to completely annihilate a body and leave nothing behind.
Dealing with regeneration
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Kakuzu's best bet with dealing with Sakura's regeneration is to hit her with attacks large enough to cause her to use a tremendous amount of chakra to heal. Not even once during his fight with Kakashi did Kakuzu show a sign of chakra exhaustion. His ninjutsu attacks are spammable, and they are strong enough to deal heavy damage.
Kakuzu can come up with fast paced ninjutsu attacks to keep Sakura on her toes and not let her near his real body.
He can force her back with fast Gians and hinder her movements, use wind doll for a quick bone break, or use his fire doll to aim for specific body parts to hurt her even more. Kakuzu's fire release is intense enough to burn through her skin and get her bones. Kakuzu can also combine his fire and wind doll to create a more intense fire to hurt her even more.
Kakuzu can use any of the fire/wind/lightning to aim for Sakura's brain, going to destroy her brain and shut down her entire body system. There is nothing suggest that a Yin seal user can still function with her brain, or the neck chopped from her body.
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