Punk Hazard
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That’s not what I said at all. Try re-reading with your reading comprehension turned on.
[VS] Doflamingo VS luffy (Rematch)
- Thread starter Light up the Darkness
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Lol at Riker man 
Some things never change...
Now all of a sudden Luffy hasnt gotten stronger since DR?
He may be the only guy in the OP community thats still wanking Doflamingo to this very day.
No hard feelings toward Riker or anything its just ridiculous how a guy like Doflamingo can be gone for 3 arcs now Luffy has literally defeated 2 SC since then and apparently still cant beat Doflamingo to him.
Some things never change...
Now all of a sudden Luffy hasnt gotten stronger since DR?
He may be the only guy in the OP community thats still wanking Doflamingo to this very day.
No hard feelings toward Riker or anything its just ridiculous how a guy like Doflamingo can be gone for 3 arcs now Luffy has literally defeated 2 SC since then and apparently still cant beat Doflamingo to him.
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Carpchonay
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You're a delusional fapboy. Doffy isnt beating Luffy anymore. Theres no reason to think that Luffy got any stronger? Fighting through big moms crew, big mom then katakuri and surviving all of it. More experience, took beatings and healed from them and you are seriously sitting there on your fat ass and believe Luffy didnt get stronger? Get the **** out of here with your nonbinary, fapboy self. You identify as a retard. Put that on your ID.
Punk Hazard
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1. Literally the ONLY differences we see demonstrated between DR Luffy and WCI Luffy is him running around after Bounce Man and Future Sight. The former of which was disproved by Oda and the latter has had no visible impact on his fighting ability. If you want to assume Luffy is stronger just because it’s a succeeding arc, fine, but that means nothing in a VS match without proof. Unless you can show Luffy being stronger, that means nothing.Lol at Riker man
Some things never change...
Now all of a sudden Luffy hasnt gotten stronger since DR?
He may be the only guy in the OP community thats still wanking Doflamingo to this very day.
No hard feelings toward Riker or anything its just ridiculous how a guy like Doflamingo can be gone for 3 arcs now Luffy has literally defeated 2 SC since then and apparently still cant beat Doflamingo to him.
2. The argument that we hadn’t seen Doffy in 3 arcs is stupid as hell. We’ve had gaps like that for Admirals and Emperors and other top tiers. They’re weaker just because we don’t we them constantly?
3. Luffy defeated Cracker only because had help from Nami(the fact that Luffy with help from Law, someone stronger than Nami, wasn’t enough for Doffy already suggests Doffy>Cracker) and his victory over Katakuri is dubious due to the fact that a significant amount of the damage that ultimately led to Katakuri losing was self-inflicted. Meaning if he wasn’t injured, we’re still left with the question of if Luffy could have hurt Katakuri enough to knock him out before Katakuri did so with his vastly superior power first, which we don’t know.
Like I said before, y’all can be wrong together all you want.
Uzumaki Macho
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I doubt that. Katakuri took a lot less damage to finally put down than Doflamingo did. Luffy and Doffy have more comparable endurance than Doflamingo and Katakuri.
And there you go playing devils advocate yet again... you use this same type of argument every time as if you need Oda to spell every thing out to you.
1. Rayleigh literally says, "the flower of Haki truly blooms in extreme conditions of battle, the more you face off against strong enemies the stronger you will become." Rikers logic: I cant see a difference in Luffys strength so I'm going to assume he didn't get stronger.
2.THATS NOT WHAT I MEANT AND YOU KNOW DAMN WELL THATS NOT WHAT I MEANT. Hes been defeated for 3 arcs now with his ass locked up while Luffy has fought and beat 2 SCs now one of them being on Doflamingos level(Cracker) and the other being much stronger and is BMs strongest commander(Katakuri).
3. This argument is flawed as hell because Luffy never used G4 when him and Law were both healthy and not split up during that duration of the battle, because if he did Doflamingo would have got his shit stomped. Whereas with the Cracker battle Nami was fine and the fight was a complete team effort because Namis rain was the perfect counter to Crackers biscuit soldiers. Those two fights are completely different and you know it and it doesn't prove Doffy is > Cracker at all. Luffy took a hell of a lot more damage than Katakuri and still was able to get up and move a little while in the MW even after the battle was over, and Luffy took the exact same trident to the abdomen that Katakuri inflicted to himself plus much more. But yet Katakuri was Koed and Luffy wasn't?? You cant ever compare the amount of damage that Katakuri self inflicted to his self to all the damage Luffy took in that battle. And the only reason Kata managed to hit him was because Flampe distracted him. And yet Luffy was still able to walk and even leave the MW after all that while Katakuri was knocked tf out in there. Luffy is > Katakuri.
You gone have to come with something better than this shit riker, this flawed ass argument isn't fooling anybody.
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Punk Hazard
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Nice strawman. Demonstrating=/=spelling it out.
Yes. Unless something is shown in the manga, it can't be used like a fact in a debate. Rayleigh did not say that Luffy will become stronger after EVERY fight, he tells him that Haki will bloom in the heat of battle, so the only way to get stronger is to KEEP using it in battle. If Haki blooms in every fight where Luffy is pushed near death, why didn't we see it bloom when Hody got a lucky shot in and almost killed him with the bite to his shoulder? Or during his fight with Cracker? Or during his fight with Doffy?
Already addressed.
Not what I meant, nor does it actually refute the argument I made. Doflamingo took a beating from Bounce Man in addition to Law's attack(which Luffy himself called a "monster"), and Luffy STILL required further help OUTSIDE of that to beat him, while Luffy only needed Nami to bring Cracker down(albeit Luffy used other underhanded tactics like running and hiding as well).
Whereas with the Cracker battle Nami was fine and the fight was a complete team effort because Cracker never tried to kill Nami. And Namis rain was the perfect counter to Crackers biscuit soldiers. Those two fights are completely different and you know it and it doesn't prove Doffy is > Cracker at all.
Dude, did you even read my posts? I said the reason Luffy was able to win that battle was because his stamina was way higher than Katakuri's. You're not at all refuting or disputing anything I said here.
Nope. Had Flambe not shot the needle that she shot, Luffy might not have been injured by the trident, but neither would Katakuri. Even in the final clash, Luffy was able to defeat Katakuri by directing his last move directly into the stab wound. Like I said before, it would have come down to the matter of which happens first: Katakuri brings down Luffy's larger stamina with his more powerful offense, or would Luffy be able to bring down Katakuri's smaller stamina with his less powerful offense, which we don't know. But given the gap between them, it's likely the first. Katakuri directing his bigger offensive power into his own smaller health pool would impact the fight more than him directing it into Luffy's bigger health pool.
STOP THE BULLSHIT. Its a figure of speech, whether you are demonstrating something or not is not the point and you know it. By being childish and saying demonstrating =/= spelling you are proving me right, you like to play devils advocate, you like to nitpick in all your arguments nothing strawman about what I said at all.
Riker once again, your argument is flawed as hell, Luffy was already much stronger than Hody to begin with so we wouldn't notice a strength or Haki increase from him anyway because once again, HE WAS ALREADY STRONGER THAN HODY. Still doesn't mean he didn't get one but because he was already stronger than Hody we wouldn't know either way. Luffy was not near death against Cracker. And Luffy beat Doffy and even went G4 right after taking an awakened string through the gut and being struck by parasite and then went on to shit on Doffys most powerful attack. That's basically the perfect example of his Haki blooming right there.
He used his strings to keep his organs in place so he wouldn't immediately have died and was constantly holding his organs together during his battle with G4. His ability grants him this luxury that other fighters don't have but that doesn't make him stronger than Cracker by any means. Cracker has his own way of avoiding damage and Doflamingo has his. I like how you don't bring up the fact that Namis rain was a hard counter to Crackers Biscuit soldiers its as if you know its important but you are purposefully leaving it out to suit your argument. Those clones were all stronger than G2/G3 Luffy and Cracker could make an endless supply of them but yet Namis rain was able to leave them soaking wet and eatable after the fact. Lets not act like Namis role wasn't extremely important in bringing him down.
The attack hitting the wound doesn't change the outcome, that same exact finisher that Katakuri used was the exact same move that didn't work a couple pages back as Luffy was still able to get up from it. Only the second time, he barely got hit by it, and was seemingly only grazed by it at his head either implying Luffys King Cobra was faster or his FS improved one last time allowing him to dodge most of the attack and avoid being done in for good. Now lets assume that both don't suffer a trident wound, Katakuris attack which you claim has more offense didn't work the first time in the manga even despite Luffys wound so how is it going to work now? And how is it going to hit Luffy a second time when he was able to not get hit by the full attack a second time even with the wound? Just stop arguing its clear as day that Luffy improved in that battle and surpassed Katakuri.
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Punk Hazard
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It's a strawman because I said something needs to be demonstrated in the manga to be used in a debate. You responded as though I said Oda needs to spoon-feed to us that it happened, which is not the case at all.
Rayleigh didn't say that the opponent needed to be stronger than you though. He said in the heat of battle, meaning when you're pushed. Hody got lucky and was able to land a critical blow on Luffy, so if he gets stronger after EVERY fight, he should have bloomed then too.
Luffy was absolutely near death with Cracker. Dude was forced to resort to running away and hiding for 11 hours with Nami weakening Cracker's main ability, and you're gonna tell me he wasn't in serious danger then? Another situation where his Haki should have bloomed further if it's every fight.
As for Doflamingo, that's not at all proof that his Haki bloomed because his Haki doesn't look any stronger then. Saying that Luffy's Haki got stronger when he broke Parasite is nonsense since Luffy broke Parasite by expanding the shape of his body and we have no benchmark to compare that too to say "Yes, this is his Haki being better." Luffy shitting on Doffy's most powerful attack isn't proof of that either because we already saw that Luffy was the advantage in destructive force with his regular Kong attacks, much less the even bigger King Kong Gun.
Depends on what you mean by "stronger." In the sense of battle capacity, being able to do something other people can't in battle absolutely adds to being "stronger."
I'm not leaving it out at all. I mentioned before in this thread that Luffy having to run away from Cracker despite Nami weakening his offensive powers shows that saying Luffy>Cracker is a flawed statement.
What I am saying is that Doffy was more hindered by Law than Cracker was hindered by Nami since Law actually not only did damage directly to Doflamingo that hindered his fighting ability, but did enough damage that he almost died in the process, while Cracker still very much had other fighting abilities to rely on(like his incredibly hard Haki and his ability to physically keep up with and damage Gear Fourth).
Thanks for contradicting your own argument of "Luffy is stronger than Doffy now because he took down a Sweet Commander."
1. Luffy hitting an open wound is absolutely going to be more effective than hitting a non-wounded area, that's not even debatable.
2. That's not how attacks work. That attack not knocking Luffy out at Point A doesn't mean it won't knock him out at Point B later on in the fight when he's hit by it again after damage in between has whittled at his stamina.
O
This is not only 100% a speculative reach since none of this is indicated on panel, but it's also untrue. We know Luffy wasn't "grazed" by it because the impact of the attack hitting him broke the ground into a crater that he fell inside. We also know Luffy didn't avoid it at all because we see him being hit square by it.
Like I said before, this is not how attacking people work. No two people who are close in strength to any degree can knock each other out in one blow. Even two people like Sabo and Burgess with a noticeable gap in power between them requires landing several moves to knock out the weaker person because you have to wear down their health/stamina to knock them out.
If neither Luffy or Katakuri were hit by the trident, the fight would just take longer to reach its conclusion. And considering that Katakuri was beating the shit out of Luffy, it's very reasonable to assume that Katakuri would be either be able to hit the trident eventually or scrap it all together.
Edit: Diced Mochi did knock Luffy out btw
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Went back and reread and Hody never pushed Luffy at all after he bit him, Luffy wasn't near death or in any critical condition so you have been spewing BS this entire time. In fact right after he bit him Luffy punched his ass and left him white eyed and proceeded to remove Hodys teeth off his shoulder. His Haki wouldn't have bloomed in that situation because the bite didn't hurt Luffy that much. And Rayleigh said under extreme conditions implying a fight where Luffy would be in very bad shape. He was by no means in bad shape after Hody bit him.
Are you stupid or what? Do you think I'm stupid or something? Luffy was not in a near death state when he was fighting Cracker, and since you like to nit pick a lot I said near death state not near death situation, once again Rayleigh said under extreme conditions, Luffy wasn't in a very bad condition with regards to his wounds at all during that fight, he had scratches but he suffered nothing serious. So once again his Haki wouldn't have bloomed in that instance either.
And how would you know it didn't get stronger? I'm going to play your favorite game now. Where's the proof that it didn't get stronger? Whose to say in addition to him already having more firepower then DD, it didn't get even stronger after DD impaled him? Because after all, we wouldn't no either way right? He was in a extreme condition wouldn't you say? So why wouldn't it bloom? You calling Rayleigh a liar?
Like I said they are two different fighters with two different strengths and weaknesses. Cracker relies on his clones, but has bad endurance(seemingly), while DD has high Endurance. They were both extremely hindered as Crackers main source of firepower was rendered useless by Nami's rain while DDs organs got messed up. You cant say one was more hindered at all based off what they both can do unless you just are being plain biased.
I didn't contradict anything, I said he took down 2 SCs since he fought DD one of which was DD level and the other much stronger. Go back and re read.
1. Never said it wasn't but they both aren't hindered by the trident in this instance, so you cant predict what's going to bring down who. If we assume the fight plays out the same way with no trident injuries this time then Luffy takes the attack the first time and gets up with less injuries then he did originally cause no trident wound and also he survives the attack a second time with less injuries as well. Luffys KC still hits Katakuri though, what happens after that is a whole lot of assuming.
2. This sounds stupid, the attack landed fully the first time and failed to put him down despite the trident wound and the second time it either wasn't quick enough or Luffy caught on to the attack with FS and managed to dodge most of it. We assume the fight plays out the same he survives both attacks. We cant say what's going to happen for a fact by bringing up instances that didn't happen.
What's untrue about it? In the panel we clearly see blood coming from his face and his body is just standing still. The first time the attack landed it stuck him to it and it swung him in the air and then created a big crater in the ground. The attack clearly did not completely hit Luffy.
Luffy was improving as the battle went on clearly as shown how he was not completely hit by diced Mochi in their last clash. Katakuri winning if the fight went on is no fact. And none of Katakuris attacks were enough, he literally had to resort to the same finisher a second time because it didn't work. And Luffy caught on and dodged most of it.
That wasn't Diced Mochi that knocked him out that was him exhausting his self as a result of pushing himself past his limits and G4 running out, maybe even a mix of all these things. Regardless he woke up and was able to crawl out the crater he was in before Kata was even able to stand and was able to even walk a bit afterwards while Kata was knocked out in the MW.
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Uzumaki Macho
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Doflamingo
Red Hawk
Injection Shot
Gamma Knife
Kong Gun
Rhino Schneider
Culverin
Leo Bazooka
King Kong Gun
Fought for ~1 hour
Katakuri
Kong Gun
Kong Gun
Rhino Schneider
Impaled through the abdomen
6 hits from Snakeman
King Cobra
Fought for almost half a day
Fought against a stronger version of Luffy
The three hits Kata took from Boundman would cancel out the first three hits that Doffy took from Boundman. All we know About the AP of Snakeman is that it's weaker than Boundman, but it should definitely be stronger than G2. I'd say that a hit from Snakeman is more powerful than Red Hawk or Injection shot, but I'll be generous to Doffy and say that Red Hawk + Injection Shot = 2 Snakeman attacks. Given that King Cobra is presumably Snakeman's strongest attack, it should be Kong Gun level at worst and Leo Bazooka level at best, but I'd say that it's closer to the latter than the former. Gamma Knife initially did more damage to Doffy than getting impaled did to Katakuri, but Doffy stitched up his organs immediately while Katakuri had to continue fighting with his wound untreated, which means that his wound would continue to bleed a lot throughout the rest of the fight (think about it like a DoT (damage over time) attack from video games). This idea was shown during the Arlong Park arc when Hatchi tried to attack Sanji in the water, but started to bleed like crazy because moving around caused the cuts he got from Zoro to open up again. Because of this, I think that Kata getting impaled overall did about as much damage as GK did to Doffy. All that there's left to compare in terms of attacks is KKG and 4 Snakeman hits, with KKG obviously being more powerful. However, when you factor in the fact that Kata fought much longer, fought a stronger version of Luffy, and slowed down KKG with Spider Web and God Thread, then KKG didn't give Doffy much of a lead over Kata. Also, lets not forget that Doffy was out cold for much longer than Kata, who regained consciousness a few minutes later. So I'd say that Kata and Doffy have comparable endurance, with Doffy's being only slightly better.
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chopstickchakra
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After seeing Luffy survive the Kata fight I don't think Doffy has the juice to keep Luffy down. That said I do think he'd have been able to beat Cracker and I think he'd give Kata a high dif fight.
Punk Hazard
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He was about to die without Jinbei's blood...The entire point of the chapter afterwards was that Luffy desperately needed the blood but the tension between humans and fishman was stopping any fishmen from donating until Jinbei stepped in...Maybe you need to re-read the entire arc.
Me saying near death was incorrect since, as you said, Rayleigh said extreme condition, not near death condition. That said, the fight with Cracker was still an extreme condition. It was a fight where Luffy needed to run away and hide for 11 hours. To say that fight wasn't extreme difficulty is being delusional.
He wasn't that injured because he spent a majority of the fight running away and avoiding fighting, which sounds like an extremely hard fight to me. If it wasn't a hard fight, why would Luffy feel the need to run away and prolong the fight for 11 hours?
Because Luffy hasn't shown anything on-panel that displays he's become stronger? That's how this shit works: In order to say it happened, there needs to be evidence of it. If there isn't any, then it didn't.
Good job twisting my words into something I never said. My entire argument has been that Ray's words didn't mean that every extreme situation will make Haki bloom, it means that going through extreme situations is the only way to bring your Haki to its fullest power.
Except Cracker displayed just as good battle prowess without his biscuits by being able to slice into Luffy's body and keep up with him physically. His battle prowess still being intact is even more evident by the fact that with his biscuits weakened, Luffy still had to run away.
LMAOOO now you're contradicting your own contradiction. First Luffy beat two SCs, showing his power over him. Then Luffy only beat him because Nami handicapped him, indicating that it doesn't actually display Luffy's power. Then you double back to "Nah, it shows Luffy's power." Pick one.
That's what the **** I said at the start of this with Variah.
You're just gonna stick to this "Luffy dodged most it" bullshit despite the panel I linked showing Luffy being in the middle of the crater the attack broke into the ground into the ground, indicating he was caught in the center of the attack's radius?
Cut it out.
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I just want to address one thing: We see Doffy stitching his wounds up again after Luffy hits him with Leo Bazooka, not to mention that Leo Bazooka struck him in the same area Gamma Knife did. I don't think it's at all accurate to say that the stab wound did as much damage to Katakuri as GK did over time because took damage to that area again after the GK hit, and Katakuri stabbed himself on the side of his abdomen where no organs or major muscle tissue is located. Not to mention that because there's no exit or entrance would from GK, any blood Doffy lost from his organs being torn apart is going to be trapped inside of his body, compressing his damaged organs. So if we're going with DoT, Doffy would still be suffering the same from internal bleeding which was never alleviated.
Luffy whipped Hodys ass after he bit him so what are you arguing here? Hody bit him, and then right after Luffy punched him and left him white eyed. The bite didnt bother him enough during the fight and it wasnt until he beat Hody a second time and destroyed half of the Noah that he needed a blood transfusion. After that he didnt fight until the next arc, so how would we know either way if his Haki bloomed? Lets say you are right and his Haki doesn't always bloom in every fight, your argument is still false because it has bloomed at least once since DR.
But anyways, im not going to keep typing 1 page essays to this BS Riker. Its pointless as **** and this whole argument is getting off topic.
Saying Luffy hasnt gotten stronger since DR is absolutely BS and false. Your whole entire main point is wrong and stupid as hell. There is a big ass flaw in your whole entire argument and you dont even realize it.
Rayleighs whole entire panel about Haki getting stronger in extreme conditions would be pointless as hell if Luffys Haki wasnt going to get stronger at all in the fight with Katakuri and hasnt gotten stronger since his battle with Doflamingo. You saying Luffy didnt get any stronger since DR completely contradicts Rayleighs statement entirely. If you are saying that Haki doesnt always bloom in extreme conditions then you are admitting that it has bloomed at some point. Which completely destroys your argument right there.
And before you say only his FS got better. He said HAKI, he didnt say just his Observation Haki would only get better. That wouldn't even make since anyway, why would one type of Haki increase but not the others?
Lets say its true and Luffy only gained FS during his fight with Katakuri. That would be plenty enough for him to beat Doflamingo as he was already stronger and faster than Doflamingo in G4 to begin with. FS would make the fight a lot quicker for him as hes going to see every thing Doflamingo is going to do before he even does it.
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Ace of the fire fist
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Punk hazard is what we call "fake woke". the guy's a flat out retard.
its common shonen knowledge that the defeated enemy stays in the past and doesn't progress past the main character ever again, who continues to evolve fight by fight.
luffy would neg his whole crew and then mid diff doflamingo. doffy cant even hit luffy anymore, luffy's fighting on a whole new frequency now.
its common shonen knowledge that the defeated enemy stays in the past and doesn't progress past the main character ever again, who continues to evolve fight by fight.
luffy would neg his whole crew and then mid diff doflamingo. doffy cant even hit luffy anymore, luffy's fighting on a whole new frequency now.
Punk Hazard
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It doesn't matter when Luffy almost died, what matters is he almost died. If Luffy's Haki gets a boost every time he meets an extremely dangerous situation, it should have bloomed then as well because almost dying is most definitely an extremely dangerous situation.
What argument does this falsify?
You say this and still can't show Luffy getting stronger being demonstrated on-panel.
No it's not. For one thing, Rayleigh's statement doesn't say "Every fight" as I mentioned before. What it would mean is that Luffy can train his Haki all he wants, but he won't see the fruits of that training until he puts it into real practice and goes about fighting. It doesn't mean that every time he's in a dangerous spot that his Haki will automatically get a boost in power.
No it doesn't? The only time we've seen Luffy's Haki bloom is when he gained Future Sight against Katakuri, but that's still something he actually has to practice to make any useful usage of.
For the same reason that a person can specialize in different forms of Haki. If every Haki remained the same strength and effectiveness of usage, how would Luffy specialize in Haoshoku more than Busoshoku or Kenbonshoku? If all your Haki forms stayed the same, how would Zoro be better at using Buso than he is at Kenbonshoku, and vice-versa for Sanji?
If Haki was always tied together, why was Katakuri's Observation Haki his special trait? Capone specifically says "he's trained his Observation Haki to the point that he can see the future," further confirming that you can develop one form of Haki ahead of the others. If every form of Haki remains in tandem:
1. It'd be impossible for Katakuri to train his Observation Haki specifically
2. More would have been made of note to him than just "His Observation Haki is that good."
The fact that Katakuri's Buso and Kenbonshoku were portrayed as superior to Luffy's but their Haoshoku clashed evenly is futher proof that Haki can be developed separately.
Further proof that the Haki can be separate is the fact that you can train your Buso and Kenbon, but you can't train Haoshoku[
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]. If all three forms of Haki grew as one thing, then improving your Buso would automatically cause your Haoshoku to increase, which we know is not the case. He also states that people are adept at one or two forms, and separates them in terms of improving them while talking to Luffy[
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]Except it wouldn't. As we saw with Luffy vs Katakuri, having FS doesn't actually improve Luffy's combat ability that much, if at all, at the moment. Not only that, but Future Sight doesn't actually allow Luffy to hit harder than before. It doesn't change that Luffy by himself lacks the firepower to knock Doflamingo out even with Bound Man. After getting fucked by Gamma Knife, Luffy still couldn't knock Doflamingo out without others to help him.
Also, thanks for dropping those terrible arguments cold. Especially the "Luffy beat Katakuri one" that contradicts your own argument that Luffy beats Doffy because he can hit harder.