[Debate] Does te end justify the means?

[Yubel]

What do you think? Why? Why not?

 

[Your Creepy Stalker]

Depends on the end and the means. if the means are genocide and the end is cake, then no. Unless it is truly magnificent cake

 

[Mori Jin]

^ What he said. It depends on what it is really.

 

[Umari Senju]

Depends on the end and the means. if the means are genocide and the end is cake, then no. Unless it is truly magnificent cake

This right here^

 

[Yubel]

Depends on the end and the means. if the means are genocide and the end is cake, then no. Unless it is truly magnificent cake

Then who decides whether the means are justified or not? Is there an objective view on the whole thing or is it down to each individual and their values?

 

[Umari Senju]

Then who decides whether the means are justified or not? Is there an objective view on the whole thing or is it down to each individual and their values?

It comes down to the persons values/belief. There is no objective outlook where this particular subject is concerned as ultimately, it's a decision that must be weighed by the individual's own life experiences.

 

[Yubel]

It comes down to the persons values/belief. There is no objective outlook where this particular subject is concerned as ultimately, it's a decision that must be weighed by the individual's own life experiences.

Then let's frame this discussion differently. What kind of person would value results over the way you get there?

 

[Sasuke tyeezy]

Then who decides whether the means are justified or not? Is there an objective view on the whole thing or is it down to each individual and their values?

Down to the individual.
One who doesn't not value human life would commit genocide for a little snack.

While another person would think that the end, under any circumstances wouldn't justify the means.

I do believe most societies & our own personal morals have steered us all in a general right or wrong decision making direction though.

For instance, If a man ruthlessly kills an otherwise innocent woman, we see it as wrong. However if that woman had been torturing kids & literally slitting new born babies throats, then, majority if not all, would see her death as justified.

Because not every situation is not just black and white we only have general basis of right & wrong. There is no absolute wrong or absolute right. Those extra elements within situations can skewer our veiw point.

 

[Yubel]

Down to the individual.
One who doesn't not value human life would commit genocide for a little snack.

While another person would think that the end, under any circumstances wouldn't justify the means.

I do believe most societies & our own personal morals have steered us all in a general right or wrong decision making direction though.

For instance, If a man ruthlessly kills an otherwise innocent woman, we see it as wrong. However if that woman had been torturing kids & literally slitting new born babies throats, then, majority if not all, would see her death as justified.

Because not every situation is not just black and white we only have general basis of right & wrong. There is no absolute wrong or absolute right. Those extra elements within situations can skewer our veiw point.

So the more you're a sociopath the more results-oriented you are.

However, you rob yourself of the happiness and pride obtained from getting those same results in a way that straight and true.

 

[BlacLord™]

"te end"?

You've got a case of Minamoto's. The only cure is...

te akcept te tobidara!!

 

[Yubel]

"te end"?

You've got a case of Minamoto's. The only cure is...

te akcept te tobidara!!

Stick to the topic and I forgot the h but stop being a grammar hoe.

 

[BlacLord™]

Stick to the topic and I forgot the h but stop being a grammar hoe.

Relax, I'm only messing.

You didn't give the scenario anyway. The mean and the end could be anything.

 

[Yubel]

Relax, I'm only messing.

You didn't give the scenario anyway. The mean and the end could be anything.

So the end justifies the means depending on the situation? You're saying it's all a matter of degree?

 

[Sasuke tyeezy]

So the more you're a sociopath the more results-oriented you are.

However, you rob yourself of the happiness and pride obtained from getting those same results in a way that straight and true.

Probably, but ask yourself this.

If someone cheated on every test throughout highschool & got a full scholarship. Do you honestly think they give a damn about that small of pride lost? No, they made the necessary "sacrifices" to get the desired results.

I don't think you necessarily have to be a sociopath to think that way. Some people will always value results over morals. Look to the country of China for instance, results practically rule their entire society.

 

[BlacLord™]

So the end justifies the means depending on the situation? You're saying it's all a matter of degree?

Absolutely.

Killing to protect justifies the means, but killing for money does not.

 

[Yubel]

Probably, but ask yourself this.

If someone cheated on every test throughout highschool & got a full scholarship. Do you honestly think they give a damn about that small of pride lost? No, they made the necessary "sacrifices" to get the desired results.

I don't think you necessarily have to be a sociopath to think that way. Some people will always value results over morals. Look to the country of China for instance, results practically rule their entire society.

That person screwed themselves over in the long run because sooner or later it'll be made clear they don't belong wherever they end up afterwards.

A house without a foundation is bound to collapse.

Absolutely.

Killing to protect justifies the means, but killing for money does not.

You need money to survive so it's the same thing as killing in self defense. You're protecting yourself in both situations.

 

[BlacLord™]

That person screwed themselves over in the long run because sooner or later it'll be made clear they don't belong wherever they end up afterwards.

A house without a foundation is bound to collapse.
You need money to survive so it's the same thing as killing in self defense. You're protecting yourself in both situations.

Not when you're in no financial difficulty. Believe it or not, affluent people have and do kill for more.

 

[Namar]

Then who decides whether the means are justified or not? Is there an objective view on the whole thing or is it down to each individual and their values?

What do you care. Just live on with your life and if you hurt someone I will be your judgement.

 

[Sasuke tyeezy]

That person screwed themselves over in the long run because sooner or later it'll be made clear they don't belong wherever they end up afterwards.

A house without a foundation is bound to collapse.
You need money to survive so it's the same thing as killing in self defense. You're protecting yourself in both situations.

Actually nothing stops him from cheating all through college or getting his act together. Suppose he makes it through college then what? He's successfully cheated the system & there's nothing to be done about it.

 

[Yubel]

Not when you're in no financial difficulty. Believe it or not, affluent people have and do kill for more.

I do agree that it depends on the situation, though if you allow the end to justify the means to a degree, there will always be room to do that no matter how bad the means are.

Let's move on the disussion. We have so far established that there is no objective view on the matter, that it's down to every individuals beliefs/values, that the degree of selfishness/sociopathy in a person determines how far they're willing to ignore the means in order to get results.

Now we get to the interesting part, the results obtained are not isolated from the means, the end is not the only reward here, however it's easy to think that way when you don't care about the path you took. There is no pride or happiness in the end itself, even if those aren't your goals. The fact remains something motivated you to go after your goal in the first place which means you cared about it.

However, when you ignore the how, you demonstrate that you don't actually care about the goal, you in essence betray yourself.

The same way you'd cheat on all your highschool exams, if you don't care about the goal then it means you need to find something you do care about and pursue that, because the reward comes from the means, not the end.