[Discussion] Does Sasuke have senjutsu?

[Legendary Saiyan]

he had senjutsu on the curse mark hence why Chidori is black

 

[Mr Hiru]

he had senjutsu on the curse mark hence why Chidori is black

No, Itachi removed the Curse Mark from Sasuke in the Uchiha Hideout Battle. You shall remember how Orochimaru was sealed inside the Totsuka Blade as consequence.

But Sasuke still has the capacity to control Senjutsu Chakra due his own experience, that's a fact which transpired during the war, under the words of Orochimaru himself.

 

[davidou]

We know he has hashi cells from kabuto, and he has the rinnegan + hagoromo chakra

So does that mean his attacks have a senjutsu edge to them? (obviously less than naruto)

What do you think?

If his attacks had no senjutsu , they would not work against Naruto's truth seeking balls.
Is that a proof that Sasuke is using senjutsu?

 

[Mr Hiru]

If his attacks had no senjutsu , they would not work against Naruto's truth seeking balls.
Is that a proof that Sasuke is using senjutsu?

Naruto blocked Susano'o Chidori Arrow with his 3 TSB, actually. And these TSB are still there, after the clash.

 

[Punk Hazard]

Whatever you say. It's still a fact that Sasuke and Kakashi underwent the exact same transformations to their Chidori/Raikiris, it's still a fact that Kakashi had Senjutsu in his due to the Sage's power, it's still a fact that Senjutsu being in the Yang half only was never established, and it's still a fact that Kakashi did a Senjutsu Raikiri without a Moon or Sun mark, and Madara also used Senjutsu without a Sun or Moon mark. You can question it all you want, but Kishimoto disagrees with you.

 

[Legendary Saiyan]

No, Itachi removed the Curse Mark from Sasuke in the Uchiha Hideout Battle. You shall remember how Orochimaru was sealed inside the Totsuka Blade as consequence.

But Sasuke still has the capacity to control Senjutsu Chakra due his own experience, that's a fact which transpired during the war, under the words of Orochimaru himself.

keyword was had. I know Itachi got rid of it. Orochimaru already said that Sasuke has Jugo's chakra hence making it easier.

 

[Mr Hiru]

Whatever you say. It's still a fact that Sasuke and Kakashi underwent the exact same transformations to their Chidori/Raikiris, it's still a fact that Kakashi had Senjutsu in his due to the Sage's power, it's still a fact that Senjutsu being in the Yang half only was never established, and it's still a fact that Kakashi did a Senjutsu Raikiri without a Moon or Sun mark, and Madara also used Senjutsu without a Sun or Moon mark. You can question it all you want, but Kishimoto disagrees with you.

> It's still a fact that Sasuke and Kakashi underwent the exact same transformations to their Chidori/Raikiris
- Yep.

> it's still a fact that Kakashi had Senjutsu in his due to the Sage's power
- Yep.

> it's still a fact that Senjutsu being in the Yang half only was never established
- Madara disagrees with you. And I won't bring that manga page again. Sasuke got Rinnegan, Naruto got the Senjutsu, this is an undeniable fact. And the relationship between Yin and Yang is explained in Chapter 462/510. Ergo, it was enstablished. If you deny that, you're being in denial.

You don't have hard proof of Sasuke getting senjutsu sources of power. I could only give you a space for conjecture with the correlation to the Moon Seal, but even I can't call this conjecture a fact. The black color of the chidori is your best argument, and still it keeps as conjecture, since there is not anything else to support this. You were not able to deny that the Moon Seal was Sasuke's source of senjutsu chakra. Hence, your claim is baseless conjecture when being alone (an asspull, since Sasuke does not have enough physical energy -part of the

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- to do chakra balance and create senjutsu chakra by himself... he had to rely on the curse mark for this purpose).

> and it's still a fact that Kakashi did a Senjutsu Raikiri without a Moon or Sun mark
- Because Obito got both powers, the Yin and Yang of the Sage: The beasts and the Gedou Mazou.

> and Madara also used Senjutsu without a Sun or Moon mark.
- Because Madara got both powers, the Yin and Yang of the Sage: The beasts and the Gedou Mazou.

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There is a huge issue with your reasoning. Senjutsu has

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... the only way to create Senjutsu Chakra is to be able to balance three things: Physical Energy, Spiritual Energy, Natural Energy (there is a fourth thing as well... the body to hold

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). Chapter 17/412 speaks about Naruto being the one with most chakra reserves. Chapter 90 speaks about how body energy is held in the body cells. So, if you add 1 + 1, you'll realize Naruto has tremendous amounts of both Physical Energy and Spiritual Energy, which enabled him to achieve Sage Mode (the ability to draw energy from Nature).

If the Six Paths's Chakra were enough to use Senjutsu Techniques as you claim, without any moon seal...

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This would not have been necessary. Madara already awakened the Rinnegan at this point meaning that he already had both Ashura's and Indra's chakra merged... in his body, even without the eyes. So under your logic of not needing the seals to create senjutsu chakra, Madara should already have the Six Paths's chakra to absorb nature energy and then use senjutsu, yet he had to absorb Hashirama's senjutsu chakra... and bingo, there is where your claim of "not needing the moon seal" falls.

If you can realize this inconsistency, then you should understand that I won't accept your proposition of Sasuke's Rinnegan's/Six Paths's chakra being enough to mold Senjutsu Chakra. It's because manga facts states that Six Paths's Chakra is not a source for this power. Madara had Six Path's chakra, and yet he couldn't absorb shizen energy by himself, nor merge it.

The only logic explanation I see as plausible for Sasuke's ability to use Senjutsu based techniques, is the following one: Sasuke needs a special seal to absorb nature energy and combine it to create Senjutsu Chakra, because he lacks the body to hold large chakra reserves and create it. It was the Curse Mark in the far past. It was the Moon Seal in the current context.

So, I guess you can question it all you want, but I can't help you if you ignore more than half of the manga to do poor argumentation.

keyword was had. I know Itachi got rid of it. Orochimaru already said that Sasuke has Jugo's chakra hence making it easier.

You got it right. Juugo did the job for Sasuke.

 

[Seventh Sama]

My theory was that he's using the sages yin chakra.. But I guess that got debunked since he was able to sense nature energy so yeah he does have some form of senjutsu.

 

[Mr Hiru]

My theory was that he's using the sages yin chakra.. But I guess that got debunked since he was able to sense nature energy so yeah he does have some form of senjutsu.

Sasuke doesn't sense Sage's chakra. He sees it directly with his Rinnegan.

That's how Sasuke could see Madara's Limbo, and that's how Pain was able to identify Naruto's Sage Mode.

 

[Seventh Sama]

Sasuke doesn't sense Sage's chakra. He sees it directly with his Rinnegan.

That's how Sasuke could see Madara's Limbo, and that's how Pain was able to identify Naruto's Sage Mode.

Didn't the elder toad sage say that only sage users can see/sense nature energy?

 

[Mr Hiru]

Didn't the elder toad sage say that only sage users can see/sense nature energy?

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It seems that's not all about the Rinnegan.

 

[davidou]

Naruto blocked Susano'o Chidori Arrow with his 3 TSB, actually. And these TSB are still there, after the clash.

You may be right , the fact that the balls are intact is a proof that Sasuke's chidori arrows had no senjutsu in it.

But we see the TSB only 9 pages after the clash between the 3 arrows and the 3 tsb , we can't be sure that they were intact just after the clash.

 

[Mr Hiru]

You may be right , the fact that the balls are intact is a proof that Sasuke's chidori arrows had no senjutsu in it.

But we see the TSB only 9 pages after the clash between the 3 arrows and the 3 tsb , we can't be sure that they were intact just after the clash.

Judging by the size of the balls before and after the impact, I'd say they are intact.

But what is currently bugging me is that Naruto only is using three TSB. I'm betting he lost the capacity to create more after he lost the Sun Seal... or maybe because he doesn't have access to all the Bijuu chakra (because he is running out of chakra, currently).

 

[UzumakiRyu]

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He can manage senjutsu chakra.

But i am not sure if he has sage mode.

He can combine it with his PS and himself but does not have the ability to gather Natural Energy like Naruto in SM can. there are few with the ability to do so and Sasuke is not one of them.

SM users are
Jiraiya
Naruto
Minato
Kabuto

they are the only ninja trained in its use.

 

[Mr Hiru]

He can combine it with his PS and himself but does not have the ability to gather Natural Energy like Naruto in SM can. there are few with the ability to do so and Sasuke is not one of them.

SM users are
Jiraiya
Naruto
Minato
Kabuto

they are the only ninja trained in its use.

Exactly. This is the main problem which needs to be proved in order to state that Sasuke mastered Senjutsu. I believe the Moon Seal temporarily enabled Sasuke to do so (like the Curse Mark Seal, but at a higher scale).

 

[King Of Pop]

what nonsense is this about moon seal making chidori black?

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.
he tells naruto use an attack containing sages chakra which is an attack containing senjutsu, then hes says he would use the six paths power too meaning he would do what he just asked naruto to do, which is use attack containing senjutsu and he did as his chidori turned black. theres nothing to argue, moon seal being shown means jack because left is sasukes dominant arm and what he uses to form his chidori normally. kishi also zoomed in on narutos hand which showed yang seal same time as sasuke, its just to show us the seals on their hand again, it has nothing to do with justu. in part 1 he used black chidori which was as a result of his cm2 and cm has the same principle as senjutsu. i guess part 1 sasuke had moon seal right? the seal has nothing to do with chidori being black so stating that is pure nonsense.

sasuke has sages chakra which he can infuse to his attacks and it works like senjutsu fact. the only thing is he doesnt gather natural energy. having sm and having sen-chakra are two different things, sasuke has the latter not the former.

 

[Xlad]

Maybe the damn databook should clear this whole thing up. As far as I can tell...I think he has just Senjutsu chakra to amplify his abilities, not Sage Mode itself. But so far, the only change in appearance was his Chidori.

 

[Mr Hiru]

Maybe the damn databook should clear this whole thing up. As far as I can tell...I think he has just Senjutsu chakra to amplify his abilities, not Sage Mode itself. But so far, the only change in appearance was his Chidori.

That's not the issue at hand. Sage Mode appears when you hold too much Senjutsu Chakra in your own body.

But senjutsu per se is the ability to collect the energy from nature and merge it with your own chakra.

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Before his battle against Itachi, Sasuke had to rely on certain Seal to feed himself with Nature energy: The Curse Mark.

After this battle, Sasuke lost the ability to collect Nature energy, but he still had the experience managing it.

During the war, Sasuke relied on Juugo to provide input of Nature energy, and Sasuke managed the chakra to merge it with his own Susano'o.

After his meeting with the Sage, something let Sasuke to use Senjutsu based features, such as removing Tobirama's bars, touching Naruto's TSB, and even using a Black Chidori.

...those features appeared only when the Moon Mark was manifested in Sasuke's hand and Rinnegan appeared in his left Eye.

Now, we have two sources of power in here... you need to use deductive logic to find the conclusion:

Madara had Six Paths chakra but he had to absorb Hashirama's Senjutsu Chakra (truth be told, Madara still did not have the Rinnegan, but he had Hagoromo's chakra flowing in his body, because he awakened the Rinnegan long time ago), meaning that Rinnegan alone don't give any feature related to Senjutsu Chakra.

Finally, if Rinnegan is not the feature that gives you the ability to absorb Nature Energy, what is the other thing that changed in Sasuke after meeting Hagoromo? Yep, it was the Moon Seal. So the deductions blooms... and you discover that the Moon Seal works just like the Curse Mark Seal: It lets its user to absorb Nature Energy and merge it with Physical and Spiritual Energy to create Senjutsu Chakra.

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Short story: The problem relies in the ability of Sasuke to absorb Nature Energy. If he can't do this, he can't mold Senjutsu chakra. The link in this post is proof enough of this fact.

...there are two possibilities that explains Sasuke's courses of action.

a) Moon Seal works as the Curse Mark Seal, but at higher scale.
b) Sasuke still held a bit of Juugo's Senjutsu Chakra, and it's about to run out (if it didn't already).

 

[NewMaster7]

Thank you guys for making this thread such a success lol......

and I was thinking i'd get no replies off this one!

 

[Donald Trump]

He doesn't know how to use any form of sage mode. As far as we can see, he only knows how to adapt to natural energy, such as with Jugo's cursed mark, or his own when he was a kid. If you want to argue about him magically becoming a sage, I'd like to see some red rings around his eyes, or his body turn scaly, because he is not a Toad Sage, nor a Snake Sage. He has acknowledged, but not controlled.