Does Sage Mode Grant Immunity To Genjutsu...?

[leafeater]

The latest chapter(s) have got me thinking as to whether a person in Sage mode may very well be immune to genjutsu of any form.

Spoiler

In the latest chapter, even though this was a shadow clone take a look at Itachi's eye:

Spoiler

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That was Itachi's left eye with the Mangekyuo activated. With Itachi, the left eye casts the genjutsu Tsukiyomi while the right eye is used for ametarasu. He appears to look at Kabuto but to no effect.
NOTE: I am aware that Kabuto is shown with his eyes closed in the following page, but this may have been due to the impact of the crows on his body. Also, in the panel shown Kabuto says 'i told you, take your time' and at this point he appears to have his eyes opened if you look carefully.

First, regarding Itachi, I'm not even sure that he even tried to cast Tsukiyomi on Kabuto, but merely activated his left MS (his Tsukiyomi eye) as a bluff to setup Kabuto for that sequence. I say this in part because he didn't say "Tsukiyomi!" with his MS eye being open, which they (doujutsu users when casting jutsu, especially MS like they have Turret's, lol ) pretty much always do. This wouldn't be the first time that he used such a tactic either. Recall back before the time-skip when he first reappeared in Konoha after the invasion and Hiruzen's death. His hand seals where so fast that he flashed shurikens to Kakashi who, even with a Sharingan, never saw the hand seals and mistook the shuriken for the real attack and setup a water wall jutsu, when Itachi in fact cast some other water release jutsu while intentionally displaying the shurikens to throw off Kakashi to make the wrong counter. This is basically what he did to Kabuto I believe. Speculation-wise, I think it's too early for Itachi to try to close it out with Tsukiyomi anyway as I think it's still a feeling out process.

As well, Kabuto was saying that Itachi should've taken his time because he thought he stabbed him, but I don't see what that has to do with the genjutsu discussion here. Going in, Itachi already knew that Kabuto's eyes were covered by the sclera as well. Here, you can see after he's used that dragon sage jutsu (when he needed the sclera to protect his vision) he's still got the sclera up, at least that's how I interpret the dark band over his eyes. Please correct me if I'm wrong, since I've only read this chapter once and then gone over certain parts as necessary. I don't mind being corrected by you, lol.

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Spoiler

When Jiraiya uses the 2 Elder toads to cast the frog song genjutsu, why does he himself remain immune to the effects of this illusion? The working of the jutsu was explained here:

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It attacks the victims brain through their sense of hearing....
That is how the jutsu is explained by the Pa the elder toad, and its used to attack Pain as genjutsu was what appeared to be his only weakness at the time.

Now, why does the song not affect Jiraiya...?

Spoiler

A genjutsu relies on a certain form of stimulation to take effect. It can be induced by looking at some one's eyes(sharingan) or in the case of J man and the toads via sound and attacking the sense of hearing. But what affects one person, surely must also affect the other? Notice here:

Spoiler

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Look at Jiraiya's hand, its to the side. He does'nt even attempt to cover his ears. But if the song affects any one who hears it, it should also affect Jiraiya, no? Yet it does'nt.

Now, regarding why Jiraiya and not being affected by the frog song genjutsu. I can approach this from multiple fronts. First, it makes no sense plot wise for the caster of the jutsu to have to fear getting caught up in his/her own genjutsu like that unless it's a known risk of the jutsu and an exception to the rule of everything we've seen to date. Physics wise, and not using advanced principles, but basic ones that even Kishi would get, when you generate sound waves like that (i.e. directional harmonic waves - kishi would say directed song or something plainer), the amplitude at the source is basically zero.

Further, because the song, in order to become effective, must combine Ma and Pa's voice it requires their voices to travel some distance from Jiraiya before the independent sound waves of Ma and Pa become cohesive into a singular sound wave that is the frog song genjutsu that affects others. This is likely what ensures protection of the caster, as neither Ma nor Pa alone can do it. While they're right next Jiraiya's ears, the actual frog song genjutsu, which is a synergistic combination of their voices is not synthesized until some safe distance away from Jiraiya moving in a direction away from him. That's really elementary, and enough so, that I believe Kishi would understand that. While I have a book entirely on the subject of the physics of waves, I don't need any of it to explain this or even really more than some basic understanding from a mid/high school text book years ago. To put it into a logical operation, the frog song genjutsu is an AND operation. It requires Ma AND Pa, whereas Jiraiya at the source is getting only Ma OR Pa, an OR operation, which is insufficient. This is math/computer science logic, but it's analogous to what's happening, and really just a way of explaining alternately and more elaborately in less writing why Jiraiya is immune. Thus, there are plot and basic science (i.e. those that Kishi would know) reasons for Jiraiya to be immune that have nothing to do with sage mode.

Just another point:

Spoiler

Some people might say well, the person close to the genjutsu source may have a natural immunity. Yet over here:

Spoiler

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Itachi, despite having his Mangekyuo activated and being the person who gave Naruto that eye, is affected completely by Shisui's genjutsu.

Next, regarding Shisui's genjutsu, I'm confused why it's relevant here, as it was programmed to trigger when shown Itachi's MS and would definitely not have immunity and be affected. Thus, of course Itachi was the one who was affected, and he did it on purpose as shown here by casting an MS technique on Naruto to bring out the crow with Shisui's eye, that was originally meant for Sasuke who would have Itachi's eye's with his EMS.

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Here, Itachi intentionally cancels Kabuto's control by activating his MS while looking towards the Naruto and the crow with Shisui's MS and thus invoking Kotoamatsukami on himself.

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Finally, Itachi explains what he did with the crow and Shisui's MS to break free of ET. The Kotoamatsukami genjutsu command was "Protect the Village of Konoha," which overrode Kabuto's commands, probably simply due to the temporal order of the instructions, as Kabuto believes he can get Itachi back now if I recall correctly.

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Spoiler

We all know that genjutsu can be overcome by disturbing one's internal source of chakra. This was shown in the Killer Bee Vs Sasuke fight. Yet what happens when the source of chakra is nature itself, and as such is constantly in change? It would appear as natural energy is used, every time the wind increases/decreases a person in Sage mode has their chakra disturbed. Thus, possibly rendering them immune to genjutsu as long as this state is maintained.

Finally, the thing is we don't know what Kabuto's chakra flow looks like right now. If he's mastered absorbing nature chakra in way that's constant then controlling that chakra flow to/from the brain (i.e. "control the chakra flowing through and linking their cranial nerves" according to Jiraiya, see links below) should be possible (this is actually the best case scenario for a genjutsu using opponent actually) even without the ability to use nature chakra I would think. The ability to use nature chakra comes from being able to absorb it and mold it in a way that can be used for nin, gen, and taijutsu. Controlling chakra flow, seems to me separate from actually being able to having to be able to use sage mode or other modes, as it's more of a hands off experience in a way. It's more like traffic control and modulatory action if you will. At least that's how I view genjutsu. What would actually make it more difficult is if the current of chakra were not constant but erratic, stochastic, etc., which is why to break genjutsu one disturbs their own chakra flow or has another do it for them, whether it's a partner in the form of a Bijou, person, Samehada, etc.

Thus, in summary, I don't think sage mode (either toad or dragon/snake) grants the user immunity to any kind of genjutsu we've seen so far in the manga. However, the only way to prove that is to observe a person in sage mode get caught in genjutsu, until then it's speculation regardless of the argument.

Note for additional good reference material: during Naruto's training with Jiraiya, here is where Jiraiya explains casting and breaking genjutsu (it's actually a flashback to the training while Naruto was caught inside Itachi's finger genjutsu at the beginning of the rescue Gaara arc):

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Peace

 

[Lightning farron]

Nice thread. but, I don't think so. If it's immune to genjutsu then it should be mentioned by frog's pa while teaching naruto..

 

[rm9223]

How's it just plot if anyone who hears the Toad song genjutsu falls victim to it but Jiraiya did'nt and did'nt even try to cover his ears?

Also, why has there not been a single instance to date where anyone using Sage mode(Naruto,Jiraiya or Kabuto) has been caught by genjutsu while in Sage mode?

why would jiraiya cover his ears against his own genjutsu? are you retarded?

 

[plainbrownrapper]

Kabuto fights with his eyes closed mostly last manga.
So i doubt eye genjutsu will catch him, he can ''sense'' nature and stuff anyway, why would he bother looking if its only going to be a burden?

Exactly. Kabuchimaru i s the mickey fickey man. He has it all under control. Sasuke already explained that Kabuto has other senses. He prolly stabbed Itachi just to resample his dna. He may release and re-Edo Tensei summon Itachi or try to reestablish control over him.
Also, Orochimaru will be back. He is too good of a villian. That is why Anko is still alive. anko + zetsu (who can copy anyones dna and chakra) + kabuto being a genius = return of lord Orochimaru.

 

[Honord Sage]

Which Sage mode are you taking about? Kabuto did cover His eyes so dose that tell you about His Sage mode.

 

[psukkar]

I have no idea why u quoted me before saying this because you are just rewording what i said and asking me pointless questions. What point are u trying to make here?

BTW this thread is about immunity to genjutsu not about someone having enough chakra control to break out of genjutsu they are already in. So pointing out facts that we all know already and that aren't related to this thread is a big waste of space.

the top line was only meant for u

sorry i should have made that clear.

 

[Anub]

I just came here to say that KA and Tsukyiomi are two of the strongest genjutsu techniques and they most likely can't be stopped by sage mode.

But man... leafeater covered more than I can imagine, so I'll go with that answer. I tried to +rep you but I apparently need to spread the love before I do it, but I know you understand that NB rep doesn't mean as much as real life rep. Keep on doing your thing!

 

[boshans]

Damn leafeater pretty much nailed it. I was going to say why Ma and Pa's Genjutsu did not affect Jiraiya, but you pretty much covered that completely. Their voices obviously have to collide into a distinct sound wave, that is how the Genjutsu works, so to do that it would obviously have to cover some distance. Since Jiraiya is right next to them, their sound waves have not had the time to fully initiate the Genjutsu, so therefore he is safe. Sure he can hear the song, but not be caught in the Genjutsu since the sound waves haven't formed the specific pattern needed to activate the Genjutsu. Nothing to do with Sage Mode.

 

[Sarito]

Spoiler

In the latest chapter, even though this was a shadow clone take a look at Itachi's eye:

Spoiler

You must be registered for see images

That was Itachi's left eye with the Mangekyuo activated. With Itachi, the left eye casts the genjutsu Tsukiyomi while the right eye is used for ametarasu. He appears to look at Kabuto but to no effect.
NOTE: I am aware that Kabuto is shown with his eyes closed in the following page, but this may have been due to the impact of the crows on his body. Also, in the panel shown Kabuto says 'i told you, take your time' and at this point he appears to have his eyes opened if you look carefully.

His snake cornea thingo is still activated so that's probably what stopped any incoming genjutsu.

 

[NarutoKage2]

First, regarding Itachi, I'm not even sure that he even tried to cast Tsukiyomi on Kabuto, but merely activated his left MS (his Tsukiyomi eye) as a bluff to setup Kabuto for that sequence. I say this in part because he didn't say "Tsukiyomi!" with his MS eye being open, which they (doujutsu users when casting jutsu, especially MS like they have Turret's, lol ) pretty much always do. This wouldn't be the first time that he used such a tactic either. Recall back before the time-skip when he first reappeared in Konoha after the invasion and Hiruzen's death. His hand seals where so fast that he flashed shurikens to Kakashi who, even with a Sharingan, never saw the hand seals and mistook the shuriken for the real attack and setup a water wall jutsu, when Itachi in fact cast some other water release jutsu while intentionally displaying the shurikens to throw off Kakashi to make the wrong counter. This is basically what he did to Kabuto I believe. Speculation-wise, I think it's too early for Itachi to try to close it out with Tsukiyomi anyway as I think it's still a feeling out process.

He does'nt need to say 'tsukiyomi' for that jutsu to activate, he just has to have his left MS eye active:

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He only mentions the name of his jutsu in response to what Kakashi was saying. Itachi did'nt say anything while casting tsukiyomi here either:

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Unless you can provide examples where he says 'tsukiyomi' and the illusion activates this point of yours is weak, really.
No, i understand that this is a major fight of the series and therefore kishi has to make it drag on for some time and all but my speculation in this theory is independent of that and as such applies to all types of Sage mode(s) not just Kabuto's. I think its possible given what we've seen so far.

As well, Kabuto was saying that Itachi should've taken his time because he thought he stabbed him, but I don't see what that has to do with the genjutsu discussion here. Going in, Itachi already knew that Kabuto's eyes were covered by the sclera as well. Here, you can see after he's used that dragon sage jutsu (when he needed the sclera to protect his vision) he's still got the sclera up, at least that's how I interpret the dark band over his eyes. Please correct me if I'm wrong, since I've only read this chapter once and then gone over certain parts as necessary. I don't mind being corrected by you, lol.

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Not much to say here, although a bit of that change in texture and shape around the eye happens with all types of sage modes. He has the sclera, but if that granted immunity than i doubt Orochimaru would have let that slip his notice when he faced off against Itachi.

Now, regarding why Jiraiya and not being affected by the frog song genjutsu. I can approach this from multiple fronts. First, it makes no sense plot wise for the caster of the jutsu to have to fear getting caught up in his/her own genjutsu like that unless it's a known risk of the jutsu and an exception to the rule of everything we've seen to date. Physics wise, and not using advanced principles, but basic ones that even Kishi would get, when you generate sound waves like that (i.e. directional harmonic waves - kishi would say directed song or something plainer), the amplitude at the source is basically zero.

But there are risks of jutsu as i mentioned to you in my VM and as such Sage Mode itself is risky.... the thing is, nature energy draws on an external source to boost the chakra and in a way its disturbing the internal chakra source, which is basically what old lady chio said was the way to overcome genjutsu in the first place.
And sound travels incredibly fast, even if it goes ahead and reaches its perfect note at some forward point that wave will bounce off and probly travel back to the source of origin. And as you said at the very least Jiraiya will definitely hear the song so....

Further, because the song, in order to become effective, must combine Ma and Pa's voice it requires their voices to travel some distance from Jiraiya before the independent sound waves of Ma and Pa become cohesive into a singular sound wave that is the frog song genjutsu that affects others. This is likely what ensures protection of the caster, as neither Ma nor Pa alone can do it. While they're right next Jiraiya's ears, the actual frog song genjutsu, which is a synergistic combination of their voices is not synthesized until some safe distance away from Jiraiya moving in a direction away from him. That's really elementary, and enough so, that I believe Kishi would understand that. While I have a book entirely on the subject of the physics of waves, I don't need any of it to explain this or even really more than some basic understanding from a mid/high school text book years ago. To put it into a logical operation, the frog song genjutsu is an AND operation. It requires Ma AND Pa, whereas Jiraiya at the source is getting only Ma OR Pa, an OR operation, which is insufficient. This is math/computer science logic, but it's analogous to what's happening, and really just a way of explaining alternately and more elaborately in less writing why Jiraiya is immune. Thus, there are plot and basic science (i.e. those that Kishi would know) reasons for Jiraiya to be immune that have nothing to do with sage mode.

But again it comes under the point i mentioned above, the sound will Jiraiya as you yourself said but perhaps the coherency is affected. And you were kind enough to mention the counter to your own point in the VM so i'll juts leave this at that.

Next, regarding Shisui's genjutsu, I'm confused why it's relevant here, as it was programmed to trigger when shown Itachi's MS and would definitely not have immunity and be affected. Thus, of course Itachi was the one who was affected, and he did it on purpose as shown here by casting an MS technique on Naruto to bring out the crow with Shisui's eye, that was originally meant for Sasuke who would have Itachi's eye's with his EMS.

The reason i brought it up at all, was to answer all the stupid noobs who were asking how Jiraiya can be affected when its his own genjutsu, well :
1. Its not Jiraiya's genjutsu, he did'nt know how to cast any it was the Elder Toads who were with Jiraiya who sang the song. I suppose you could say in a way it was his.
2. Itachi was the one who had Shisui's eye and he programmed it, thus technically if you call the Toad Song Jiraiya's genjtusu, you can call the KA Itachi's genjutsu and he was affected by it, thus rubbishing the claims that 'you can't be affected by your own genjutsu'.

Finally, Itachi explains what he did with the crow and Shisui's MS to break free of ET. The Kotoamatsukami genjutsu command was "Protect the Village of Konoha," which overrode Kabuto's commands, probably simply due to the temporal order of the instructions, as Kabuto believes he can get Itachi back now if I recall correctly.

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And so Itachi fell victim to his own genjutsu which he had given to Naruto. So its not like a tech which is on your side/in your possession like that cannot be used against you/work against your senses at the time.

Finally, the thing is we don't know what Kabuto's chakra flow looks like right now. If he's mastered absorbing nature chakra in way that's constant then controlling that chakra flow to/from the brain (i.e. "control the chakra flowing through and linking their cranial nerves" according to Jiraiya, see links below) should be possible (this is actually the best case scenario for a genjutsu using opponent actually) even without the ability to use nature chakra I would think. The ability to use nature chakra comes from being able to absorb it and mold it in a way that can be used for nin, gen, and taijutsu. Controlling chakra flow, seems to me separate from actually being able to having to be able to use sage mode or other modes, as it's more of a hands off experience in a way. It's more like traffic control and modulatory action if you will. At least that's how I view genjutsu. What would actually make it more difficult is if the current of chakra were not constant but erratic, stochastic, etc., which is why to break genjutsu one disturbs their own chakra flow or has another do it for them, whether it's a partner in the form of a Bijou, person, Samehada, etc.

The basics of Sage mode should be the same for any type of animal based summon. Its absorbing Nature chakra, actually the picture of Kabuto in the 1st page of the latest chapter and the shapes around him of the natural energy looks a lot like the forms we saw when Naruto was undergoing Sage training thus further enhancing the possibility of a similarity in the basics of this mode for everyone.
But the thing is you can't control the way your chakra is flowing to your cranium or any other part of your body when affected by genjutsu. The entire flow of chakra becomes completely erratic throughout all the passageways of the body and as such its impossible to start altering them when every perception is basically false(not a very scientifically sound idea but it is what genjutsu entails going by the manga). The only way for an individual to overcome it is by either using an even higher level of genjutsu to basically put your opponent under their own illusion(what Itachi does to Kurenai) or to disturb your own chakra by an outside stimulus(the Hachibi disturbing Bee's chakra for example). Its like Bee said, the beast inside me is what disturbs my chakra, well what if the natural energy being drawn into the body does the same thing in Sage mode?

Thus, in summary, I don't think sage mode (either toad or dragon/snake) grants the user immunity to any kind of genjutsu we've seen so far in the manga. However, the only way to prove that is to observe a person in sage mode get caught in genjutsu, until then it's speculation regardless of the argument.

Exactly, so it can't be completely disproven until that happens and its possible even if it is'nt a very popular idea(i suspect its lack of popularity is the number of Itachi/Sasuke fanboys here more than anything lol.

Note for additional good reference material: during Naruto's training with Jiraiya, here is where Jiraiya explains casting and breaking genjutsu (it's actually a flashback to the training while Naruto was caught inside Itachi's finger genjutsu at the beginning of the rescue Gaara arc):

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Ok now some people have said that if it were possible Jiraiya, or later onwards the Elder toads would have mentioned it to Naruto. Let me rubbish this argument straight away by stating:
Killer Bee knew that being a perfect jinchuriki helps you to escape genjutsu=fact. He never mentioned this to Naruto even once during the course of their training=another fact. One type of advantage of a tech not being mentioned does'nt mean that tech cannot have that advantage. Just saying.
And i also believe in the anime that Jiraiya also mentions that Naruto is'nt really a genjutsu type shinobi, neither technically was J man and as such his knowledge on the subject would have been limited.

Now, how do you justify the fact that in the last chapter, almost immediately after attaining Sage mode Kabuto charges ahead, looking in Itachi and Sasuke's direction with no apparent defense prepared to their illusions(minus the schlera, again as i mentioned above i doubt its much of an actual defense in the first place.)? Why, after hearing Itachi's plan to put him under tsukyomi was Kabuto still so bold and cocky, whereas he should evidently have been worried as Oro fell prey to Itachi's illusions as well? Why was'nt Kabuto worried? His response at that point was almost as if he were toying with the Uchiha brothers, as if he knew that that plan of Itachi's was not going to work How would he have been so confident of not being put into an illusion? Unless he had planned to do something which would make it impossible for the illusion to work as Itachi had described it. It might have been the abilities of Sage mode or it might not, but considering how Itachi has been renown for his illusions even with the 3 tomoe sharingan(he put Deidara and Oro under it) i believe there has to be a reason other than plot why he has failed to do so despite having Sasuke as his back up over here.
Oh, and fyi for any noob who may be reading this, the crow thing was a substitution, like Kakashi's lightning subs this was Itachi's crow sub, it was'nt genjutsu.

 

[leafeater]

He does'nt need to say 'tsukiyomi' for that jutsu to activate, he just has to have his left MS eye active:

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He only mentions the name of his jutsu in response to what Kakashi was saying. Itachi did'nt say anything while casting tsukiyomi here either:

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Unless you can provide examples where he says 'tsukiyomi' and the illusion activates this point of yours is weak, really.
No, i understand that this is a major fight of the series and therefore kishi has to make it drag on for some time and all but my speculation in this theory is independent of that and as such applies to all types of Sage mode(s) not just Kabuto's. I think its possible given what we've seen so far.

You're right, he doesn't need to verbally state "Tsukiyomi" for the jutsu to activate; however, without the outcome being Kabuto in a genjutsu there's no way to differentiate a failed Tsukiyomi from a non-Tsukiyomi from a bluffed Tsukiyomi, lol. My main point was that I wasn't sure that Itachi used Tsukiyomi, so that point wasn't weak as to argue that he did use Tsukiyomi carries equal uncertainty. Further, Itachi has presented jutsu in the past as bluffs as part of his fighting style, which is why I mentioned that.

Not much to say here, although a bit of that change in texture and shape around the eye happens with all types of sage modes. He has the sclera, but if that granted immunity than i doubt Orochimaru would have let that slip his notice when he faced off against Itachi.

I don't think Orochimaru ever had the sclera to cover his eyes like Kabuto currently has, and if he did, I don't recall him ever using them. Clearly Kabuto has planned for this and has a reason for using them as he can activate them unlike the the changes to the eyes from toad sage mode, which are not voluntary.

But there are risks of jutsu as i mentioned to you in my VM and as such Sage Mode itself is risky.... the thing is, nature energy draws on an external source to boost the chakra and in a way its disturbing the internal chakra source, which is basically what old lady chio said was the way to overcome genjutsu in the first place.
And sound travels incredibly fast, even if it goes ahead and reaches its perfect note at some forward point that wave will bounce off and probly travel back to the source of origin. And as you said at the very least Jiraiya will definitely hear the song so....

But again it comes under the point i mentioned above, the sound will Jiraiya as you yourself said but perhaps the coherency is affected. And you were kind enough to mention the counter to your own point in the VM so i'll juts leave this at that.

There are two things being said here. The first has to two with nature chakra being drawn in constantly, which you believe is a disruptive force that would oppose/disrupt genjutsu. However, this is really not such an issue, especially the more continuous the nature chakra is drawn in. It's acute disruptive chakra disturbance that's an issue for genjutsu, not continuous external chakra inflow if you really think about it. It's not whether or not there's chakra inflow, it's about the continuity and rate, thus mathematically I would say the derivative of the chakra flow is what's really important even though that's not discussed in Naruto it's still seen or talked about in other terms on the forums (math is just my shorthand vocabulary).

Regarding Jiraiya, there's a saying "you can never walk through the same river twice" or in other wording. The very act of walking through the river changes it... anyway... Basically, what may be critical is that the part of the frog song genjutsu that's further protective is the fact that Jiraiya will never hear the same song that the opponent hears, even if it's nearly identical. It doesn't matter that he hears echoed song a second later as it's not the source, and only the source carries the signal that encodes the information to properly modulate the chakra flow into the brain. The difference between the source and the echoed version in it's coherence, consistency, degradation, etc. could all be factors that simply change the jutsu from effective to ineffective as a natural means of protecting the caster. OK, so even when Jiraiya hears the frog song, he's not hearing the source. Apparently that may be important unless you argue that somehow sage mode grants immunity to genjutsu by the constant rate of influx of nature chakra, which mathematically doesn't make sense.

The reason i brought it up at all, was to answer all the stupid noobs who were asking how Jiraiya can be affected when its his own genjutsu, well :
1. Its not Jiraiya's genjutsu, he did'nt know how to cast any it was the Elder Toads who were with Jiraiya who sang the song. I suppose you could say in a way it was his.
2. Itachi was the one who had Shisui's eye and he programmed it, thus technically if you call the Toad Song Jiraiya's genjtusu, you can call the KA Itachi's genjutsu and he was affected by it, thus rubbishing the claims that 'you can't be affected by your own genjutsu'.



And so Itachi fell victim to his own genjutsu which he had given to Naruto. So its not like a tech which is on your side/in your possession like that cannot be used against you/work against your senses at the time.

Don't call people "stupid noobs" aim to be better. 1. Jiraiya in sage mode is fused with Ma and Pa, it's their genjutsu, discriminating to it being Ma and Pa's fine, but it's kind of being overly detailed as it's also Jiraiya's by virtue of them being his summons and contracted. You never asked why Ma and Pa aren't affected by their frog song genjutsu, which is interesting. Take out Jiraiya the middle man if you are so intent and focus on them. You'll find the same reasons.
2. Here you're going for semantics and rhetoric to compare Itachi's use of Shisui's MS eye and Jiriaya's frog song I guess. Clearly Ma and Pa aren't affected by the frog song genjutsu either, OK, so it's not just Jiriaya who isn't affected. I would give the same reason for why they aren't affected as I would for Jiraiya. Itachi using Shisui's MS eye is a separate case as you should be able to argue why Ma and Pa aren't captured in their own genjutsu.

The basics of Sage mode should be the same for any type of animal based summon. Its absorbing Nature chakra, actually the picture of Kabuto in the 1st page of the latest chapter and the shapes around him of the natural energy looks a lot like the forms we saw when Naruto was undergoing Sage training thus further enhancing the possibility of a similarity in the basics of this mode for everyone.
But the thing is you can't control the way your chakra is flowing to your cranium or any other part of your body when affected by genjutsu. The entire flow of chakra becomes completely erratic throughout all the passageways of the body and as such its impossible to start altering them when every perception is basically false(not a very scientifically sound idea but it is what genjutsu entails going by the manga). The only way for an individual to overcome it is by either using an even higher level of genjutsu to basically put your opponent under their own illusion(what Itachi does to Kurenai) or to disturb your own chakra by an outside stimulus(the Hachibi disturbing Bee's chakra for example). Its like Bee said, the beast inside me is what disturbs my chakra, well what if the natural energy being drawn into the body does the same thing in Sage mode?

The difference as I argued above between absorbing nature chakra and having a partner infuse chakra is how discretely or continuously it's done. Kabuto is continuously absorbing nature chakra in sage mode, which is nice and thus not disruptive in my view. When you want to break genjutsu you want an discrete infusion of chakra such as from the Hachibi to Bee. Genjutsu is basically about controlling a signal, a signal that's changing continuously should be OK, but one that's cutting in and out, that shouldn't work. Kabuto in sage mode falls under the former (i.e. OK).

Exactly, so it can't be completely disproven until that happens and its possible even if it is'nt a very popular idea(i suspect its lack of popularity is the number of Itachi/Sasuke fanboys here more than anything lol.

I put this statement in to support you. Technically, nothing can be proven or disproven until it occurs in the manga. It's a not a statement you really want to stand on though unless you must.

Ok now some people have said that if it were possible Jiraiya, or later onwards the Elder toads would have mentioned it to Naruto. Let me rubbish this argument straight away by stating:
Killer Bee knew that being a perfect jinchuriki helps you to escape genjutsu=fact. He never mentioned this to Naruto even once during the course of their training=another fact. One type of advantage of a tech not being mentioned does'nt mean that tech cannot have that advantage. Just saying.
And i also believe in the anime that Jiraiya also mentions that Naruto is'nt really a genjutsu type shinobi, neither technically was J man and as such his knowledge on the subject would have been limited.

This wasn't even addressed to me I presume. I gave you those links as a gift.

Now, how do you justify the fact that in the last chapter, almost immediately after attaining Sage mode Kabuto charges ahead, looking in Itachi and Sasuke's direction with no apparent defense prepared to their illusions(minus the schlera, again as i mentioned above i doubt its much of an actual defense in the first place.)? Why, after hearing Itachi's plan to put him under tsukyomi was Kabuto still so bold and cocky, whereas he should evidently have been worried as Oro fell prey to Itachi's illusions as well? Why was'nt Kabuto worried? His response at that point was almost as if he were toying with the Uchiha brothers, as if he knew that that plan of Itachi's was not going to work How would he have been so confident of not being put into an illusion? Unless he had planned to do something which would make it impossible for the illusion to work as Itachi had described it. It might have been the abilities of Sage mode or it might not, but considering how Itachi has been renown for his illusions even with the 3 tomoe sharingan(he put Deidara and Oro under it) i believe there has to be a reason other than plot why he has failed to do so despite having Sasuke as his back up over here.
Oh, and fyi for any noob who may be reading this, the crow thing was a substitution, like Kakashi's lightning subs this was Itachi's crow sub, it was'nt genjutsu.

I put very little in a character's attitude, especially Kabuto's arrogance. How am I supposed to read into the confidence of one of the most arrogant characters in the whole series? Confidence and certainty are two separate things, and we've only seen two chapters of this unfold. I don't know what's going to happen, but I'm not going to put analysis into that, certainly at this point. No one's really done anything yet, whereas his confidence indicates he should be in a better position. That's why I don't go off his confidence. Further, trying to infer from Kabuto's state of mind about whether or not sage mode grants immunity to genjutsu is beyond what can be supported by logic.


In summary, I still don't view sage mode as granting immunity to genjutsu. This is do to the way that nature chakra is absorbed, namely continuously, which should make controlling the flow of chakra still possible. If we were talking about discrete chakra disruptions, it would be a very different discussion.

Regarding, Jiraiya/Ma & Pa and the frog song genjutsu, I've provided further reasons why they're protected from the frog song genjutsu, and if pressed I can keep generating them from basic science all day long, albeit apologies when I use more complicated verbiage.

Further, I don't think that Itachi's use Shisui's MS eye is comparable given that the same arguments used for Jiriaya would be used for Ma and Pa, the originators of the genjutsu.

Whether or not Itachi cast Tsukiyomi is unknown, and secondary to the thread's central point; thus, I'm not terribly concerned at the moment as to whether he did or not. I would make a similar judgement regarding Kabuto's sclera and his confidence. Thus, neither are of particular interest to me at the moment either. I would therefore focus on the central points of your argument if I were you and disregard the side points, but argue however you want.

This fight has just begun, it's fiction, and I don't know what's going to happen. I'll be interested to see, but based on fundamental principles, those are my views now. I'm happy to change them as the manga is published. I'm tired (don't really like doing multi-quote argument posts), so I haven't really reviewed this, but I think it's fairly complete and that I don't really have anything to add after this. Anyway, good luck.

Peace

 

[OWanime]

plot or physics is actually at work and so the sound is being projected forward like a beam instead of waves in all direction xd

 

[boshans]

Regarding the sclera on Kabuto...to me I think that it IS the reason why he is so confident about not getting caught by Tsukiyomi. Obviously he first put his Sclera down when he was using his Hakugeki Sage Jutsu because of the bright flash of light it produced, and he himself would be blinded from it also if he didn't. Now why would he still keep his Sclera down after the jutsu ended if it did not serve some other purpose? It wouldn't make sense. I don't think it is impossible for it to be able to deflect Genjutsu, it is kind of like his eyes are closed like that.

I still don't see how Sage Mode cancels out Genjutsu. We don't know for sure if Kabuto is constantly taking in Sage Chakra or not. Even with Juugo's ability, Pa said that it is IMPOSSIBLE to take in Sage Chakra while moving. Let's say it is just like Naruto's Sage Mode, which is should be. When Naruto is IN Sage Mode, he is no longer taking in Nature Chakra. He has to absorb it beforehand and build up a certain amount for it to be in perfect balance with his Spiritual and Physical Chakra he already has. It would look like this:

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Non Sage Mode looks like this:

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You add a type of chakra to your body in perfect balance with each other, that is how you activate Sage Mode, since you only absorbed a specific amount of Nature Chakra, you only stay in Sage Mode for a certain amount of time. My point is that the Nature Chakra is NOT disturbing your Chakra anymore when you are in Sage Mode, it is just part of your Chakra at that time. So Genjutsu would still work, and you would have to disturb your Chakra to get out of the Genjutsu, even if you are in Sage Mode. Maybe taking in more Nature Chakra while in a Genjutsu would undo the Genjutsu, but just being in Sage Mode itself would not.

 

[Q of the Sharingan]

the sound ninja girl from the sound four used sound for genjutsu as well, but she wasnt affected by her own music. users arent affected by their own genjutsu, unless it is reflected on them. the arguement that nature energy is constantly disrupting your chakra is null due to a constant balance of nature, spiritual, and physical energy needed to obtain sage mode. if you dont do this then you suffer the consequences of turning to stone or having an incomplete sage mode. there has been no evidence that sage users are immune to genjutsu but by the fact that kabuto is trying to not get caught by tsukyomi, by closing his eyes and blinding the uchiha bros, makes it seem like he can be hit by powerful genjutsu.

 

[Q of the Sharingan]

and if you want to take physics into account for the frog genjutsu here i go. the frogs had to combine their voices for the genjutsu. that means that the sounds waves had to meet eachother. it could work the same way car stereos or noise cancelling headphones do. car stereos rely on sound interference to get the most out of the sound. the sound waves collide with each other to get the optimal effect for the sound wanted. if you sit in different parts of the car then you well hear different frequency of noises. and if you stand on the side of a stereo it sounds different than standing in front. so since the frogs were on the side of jiraiya, the sound waves they produced for the jutsu hadnt combined in the neccessary fashion. either that or since chakra is needed for gen and ninjutsu, maybe they embedded only the part of the sound waves in front of them with chakra.