[Debate] Do you believe in zodiac signs and horoscopes?

Uverdore9

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I've seen compelling evidence that supports the supposition that they play an important role in our lives like determining personality traits, bad luck, future etc. Thoughts?
 
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Imperfection

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They're fun to discuss and take some pride in being a specific sign, although I dont necessarily believe in it.
I'm a pisces and although from what I've read a lot of the personality of a pisces do line up with a lot of my personality and feelings I also feel like other signs do the same.
 

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I tested the accuracy of readings for the past 4 years. If I'd have to guesstimate the accuracy from a 1 to 10 scale it over the time span of 4 years I'd have to say its about 7/10. Often chilling how accurate and in depth the horoscopes were.
 

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The existence of something, even recognised, does not equate to you having a perfect understanding of it. So even if something exists, it does not mean you are fit to use it.

Even wuth an adequate understanding, it does not mean it is good to use it at all. A volcano exists, has lots of energy, that does not mean you should try to collect that energy to power your house.

Even with the skill to use it, it still does not mean you should use it. The energy of a volcano is needed for maintaining environmental energy balance. Even if you could safely take it, you would deprive the environment of its needed energy. Global warming works on this principle.

So even if Horrorscopes and such things (omenisms) exist, it does not mean we should use them. In this case its our own internal energy balance that it at stake. What you read from a horrorscope is not necessarily worth reading and could simply distract you from more important things.

In this case, our own imperfection - which is kinda the premise behind using them - makes them potentially dangerous if not conclusively bad to use. And that is even assuming they are the real deal.
 
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YowYan

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The existence of something, even recognised, does not equate to you having a perfect understanding of it. So even if something exists, it does not mean you are fit to use it.

Even wuth an adequate understanding, it does not mean it is good to use it at all. A volcano exists, has lots of energy, that does not kean you should try to collect that energy to power your house.

Even with the skill to use it, it still does not mean you should use it. The energy of a volcano is needed for maintaining environmental energy balance. Even if you could safely take it, you would deprive the environment of its needed energy. Global warming works on this principle.

So even if Horrorscopes and such things (omenisms) exist, it does not mean we should use them. In this case its our own internal energy balance that it at stake. What you read from a horrorscope is not necessarily worth reading ajd could simply distract you from more important things.

In this case, our own imperfection - which is kinda the premise behind using them - makes them potentially dangerous if not conclusively bad to use. And that is even assuming they are the real deal.
I tend to let the day go by and then at the end of it, while getting ready to go to sleep, I check the daily horoscope to see if it alligns with how my day went. That's a way to test the validity. For example, I'd get the prediction that my father which whom I rarely communicate would contact me today after a couple of months of no contact. It happened that day and the daily horoscope mentioned it in detail.

People who haven't actually studied this phenomena are not qualified to even form an opinion on the matter
 

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I tend to let the day go by and then at the end of it, while getting ready to go to sleep, I check the daily horoscope to see if it alligns with how my day went. That's a way to test the validity. For example, I'd get the prediction that my father which whom I rarely communicate would contact me today after a couple of months of no contact. It happened that day and the daily horoscope mentioned it in detail.

People who haven't actually studied this phenomena are not qualified to even form an opinion on the matter
All things are connected

For the first part, this means even your simple testing can disturb you internally. Can. I'm inclined against it, but i cannot gurantee it being a bad disturbance.

For the second part, it means anyone (even a kid) can always talk about something and offer something credible because their experience with related things gives them some degree of understanding here.
 

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All things are connected

For the first part, this means even your simple testing can disturb you internally. Can. I'm inclined against it, but i cannot gurantee it being a bad disturbance.

For the second part, it means anyone (even a kid) can always talk about something and offer something credible because their experience with related things gives them some degree of understanding here.
That depends on what you allow to disturb your inner peace. If one is troubled in some area of his life, or just in need of some inspiration or mental clarity, horoscopes can offer some needed guidance. Whether you're inclined against it or not is a personal choice and does not take away validity from astrology.

Regarding the scientific breakdown of astrology; Its a science we have yet to fully grasp. Astrology/astronomy is at the base of every religion and our distant past is still a mystery. If I had a christian friend of mine watch a monthly prediction of his sign and having it sent shivers down his spine, calling it a satanic abomination that read his soul thoroughly..yeah, I'd say its just another individual confused by something he can't really fathom.

And nor do I, I just go with it
 

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That depends on what you allow to disturb your inner peace. If one is troubled in some area of his life, or just in need of some inspiration or mental clarity, horoscopes can offer some needed guidance. Whether you're inclined against it or not is a personal choice and does not take away validity from astrology.

Regarding the scientific breakdown of astrology; Its a science we have yet to fully grasp. Astrology/astronomy is at the base of every religion and our distant past is still a mystery. If I had a christian friend of mine watch a monthly prediction of his sign and having it sent shivers down his spine, calling it a satanic abomination that read his soul thoroughly..yeah, I'd say its just another individual confused by something he can't really fathom.

And nor do I, I just go with it
Hence i said that i cannot guarantee its a bad disturbance . . .

Actually, in a discussion of value and suitability, my inclinations are not a choice, but a belief, belief based on experience, knowledge etc. That applies to anyone's inclinations. You dont choose to believe whether 1+1=2 or not, it happens based on your understanding.

And even before that, you don't choose what disturbs you either. Or even how it disturbs you. Disturbance is literally being moved. You dont choose to not bemoved when a bus hits you. It happens and how much it happens depends on your own qualities (resistances etc) vs those of whatever is moving you (its own qualities like weight etc). Well, unless you can give reason for a fundamental difference between psychological ("internal energy") and physical movement to the extent of you having choice over being moved. At best you can train yourself up, but in your current state during a current interaction there is literally zero choice factor in whether something disturbs you or not.

How on earth do you not understand such basic principles, literally how things work! And this is personal stuff, not the sort of thing you should need to be taught about. Have you never experienced being disturbed by something? Do you not have opinions and perspectives on things?

Scientific breakdown? Interesting

Anyway. On one hand you say its a science. Okay? Technically, anything based on knowledge and process is a science, so it hardly lends the credibility you're seeking to give it. Then on the other hand you say we have yet to understand it. That is an attempt to defend any faults found with it. Unfortunately, that contradicts your "its science" credibility lending attempt. Its not much of a science if we lack solid understanding of it. Not stating my own views here (my personal views are actually a lot more positive about it), just looking at your own side. That's also how i recognise the attempts at defending it. Pure expressions don't contradict themselves. To close that sentence off, our lack of understanding is not a defence for something we use, its a reason to not use it!

At the base of every religion? That's another credibility attempt and its a statement you can hardly prove. But even if it was true, it doesn't address anything i said. Like, read my post. Its about usage, not credibility.

Then you close off with an appeal to ridicule . . . i could say more on this but honestly . . .

Funny thing is that if you read my post, you'll notice that the very first and very last sentences both show that im giving full credibility to the omenisms. So the fact that you jump to defend that part says a lot about your own views on it - the views of those who defend it.

I was just making a general expression of logical reasoning regarding usage of thing, any and all things, really. Your defence is of a point i didn't even bring up and even then it is inadequate. Seriously, man. I actually have a more positive view on these things than even you, but the way we've gone it looks like I'm attacking them.
 

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Hence i said that i cannot guarantee its a bad disturbance . . .

Actually, in a discussion of value and suitability, my inclinations are not a choice, but a belief, belief based on experience, knowledge etc. That applies to anyone's inclinations. You dont choose to believe whether 1+1=2 or not, it happens based on your understanding.

And even before that, you don't choose what disturbs you either. Or even how it disturbs you. Disturbance is literally being moved. You dont choose to not bemoved when a bus hits you. It happens and how much it happens depends on your own qualities (resistances etc) vs those of whatever is moving you (its own qualities like weight etc). Well, unless you can give reason for a fundamental difference between psychological ("internal energy") and physical movement to the extent of you having choice over being moved. At best you can train yourself up, but in your current state during a current interaction there is literally zero choice factor in whether something disturbs you or not.

How on earth do you not understand such basic principles, literally how things work! And this is personal stuff, not the sort of thing you should need to be taught about. Have you never experienced being disturbed by something? Do you not have opinions and perspectives on things?

Scientific breakdown? Interesting

Anyway. On one hand you say its a science. Okay? Technically, anything based on knowledge and process is a science, so it hardly lends the credibility you're seeking to give it. Then on the other hand you say we have yet to understand it. That is an attempt to defend any faults found with it. Unfortunately, that contradicts your "its science" credibility lending attempt. Its not much of a science if we lack solid understanding of it. Not stating my own views here (my personal views are actually a lot more positive about it), just looking at your own side. That's also how i recognise the attempts at defending it. Pure expressions don't contradict themselves. To close that sentence off, our lack of understanding is not a defence for something we use, its a reason to not use it!

At the base of every religion? That's another credibility attempt and its a statement you can hardly prove. But even if it was true, it doesn't address anything i said. Like, read my post. Its about usage, not credibility.

Then you close off with an appeal to ridicule . . . i could say more on this but honestly . . .

Funny thing is that if you read my post, you'll notice that the very first and very last sentences both show that im giving full credibility to the omenisms. So the fact that you jump to defend that part says a lot about your own views on it - the views of those who defend it.

I was just making a general expression of logical reasoning regarding usage of thing, any and all things, really. Your defence is of a point i didn't even bring up and even then it is inadequate. Seriously, man. I actually have a more positive view on these things than even you, but the way we've gone it looks like I'm attacking them.
I think you're overcomplicating our talk here and I'm not in the mood for dragged out debates but I do agree with, and only now realise that my comment about my christian friend and you being confused came across as an attack. I apologize for that.

A 'disturbance', in my book, usually correlates with words such as; failure, interference, malfunction, outage, breakdown. I don't really see what could be so disturbing about a reading. "You will have a day full adversity" If that is the type of stuff you're referring too that could rob you of your inner peace.. again, its what you allow to disturb you. Such a prediction would be used to my benefit to expect and handle adversity throughout my day in a controlled manner. A child couldn't really comprehend intricate readings, a young teenager probably. Experience and insight are also key into grasping readings and the message they try to put into words.

In my language, 'science' literally translates into 'knowing-ship'.
We, as a collective do not know the entirety of the mystery behind astro(theology) is all I'm saying. Lets not complicate the point any further.

"the very first and very last sentences both show that im giving full credibility to the omenisms. So the fact that you jump to defend that part says a lot about your own views on it - the views of those who defend it. "

^ Fair enough, I get your point. I misunderstood you and was too fast with my reply

edit: I've spent tons of hours over the past 11 years researching astrotheology, cymatics, etc. so yeah, if I say astrology is at the base of most, if not every religion, its not just a random claim.

A small hint: Luke 22:10
 
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I think you're overcomplicating our talk here and I'm not in the mood for dragged out debates but I do agree with, and only now realise that my comment about my christian friend and you being confused came across as an attack. I apologize for that.

A 'disturbance', in my book, usually correlates with words such as; failure, interference, malfunction, outage, breakdown. I don't really see what could be so disturbing about a reading. "You will have a day full adversity" If that is the type of stuff you're referring too that could rob you of your inner peace.. again, its what you allow to disturb you. Such a prediction would be used to my benefit to expect and handle adversity throughout my day in a controlled manner. A child couldn't really comprehend intricate readings, a young teenager probably. Experience and insight are also key into grasping readings and the message they try to put into words.

In my language, 'science' literally translates into 'knowing-ship'.
We, as a collective do not know the entirety of the mystery behind astro(theology) is all I'm saying. Lets not complicate the point any further.

"the very first and very last sentences both show that im giving full credibility to the omenisms. So the fact that you jump to defend that part says a lot about your own views on it - the views of those who defend it. "

^ Fair enough, I get your point. I misunderstood you and was too fast with my reply

edit: I've spent tons of hours over the past 11 years researching astrotheology, cymatics, etc. so yeah, if I say astrology is at the base of most, if not every religion, its not just a random claim.

A small hint: Luke 22:10
Its a troublesome thing.

Langauge on its own is not perfect for expressing our views. Even if it was, we ourselves may not be perfect at wielding it. Even if we were . . . well, at that point all of this would be meaningless because everything would be perfect . . . the thoughts and feelings themselves are not always perfect representations of us (hence the "racism is learned, not natural" campaigns). So 3 times over there is reason for us to not properly represent ourselves or at least make mistakes in our usage of language. Its actually why i myself do these long paragraphs, to try and cover all meanings. That is actually proof (of sorts) for one of my beliefs, which is that we all agree at our deepest level/foundations, but a whole lot of factors lead to us arguing because we misunderstrand each other, thus thinking we disagree on foundational issues.

Anyway. To deal with factors relevant to a point is never an over-complication because it is a part of the topic. At best, it may be unnecessary information/points, but i would even argue all information relevant to a topic is useful.

I see your definition. I didn't mean like that. I meant like when something moves you internally, changes your focus/thinking/feelings, even if slightly. Basically, a change in spirit/countenance. Your example is basically a small-scale version, which makes it difficult to see the movement, like when an ant moves from a mile away. A bigger scale is like if a rape victim read something about rape danger - it shocks/scares them. The major difference in our examples is scale. I used a bigger example to illustrate the basic quality by making it clearer.

But even with your understanding, i don't see how its a choice. You made an example of reaction, which itself comes after being affected. Before you apply it positively, you must feel it is worth applying. That's within my meaning of disturbance. Remember, i said that it doesn't always become a bad disturbance. It is within possibility for it to be a good disturbance. Like, if a lazy bum was told they could find their soul mate by jogging. Even if the prediction is false, the inspiration to jog is immediately positive. Generic example, don't scrutinise too much, it has some faults but I'm trying for the basic meaning. Perhaps the word disturbance has negative connotations, i concede that much.

Precisely my meaning as well, with science. If we dont know much, then it is less science because it is less knowledge. I don't want this to become about our personal views because i was trying to bring forth the general rules of logic, but i myself would argue that such things are as much science as common physics or biology.

I didn't mean its a random or unqualified claim. Its part of my belief that nothing is without reason. I meant that it carries connotations or implications that are unsuitable for the purpose of properly promoting it. Like, the very nature of religion makes the most confirmed sciences to be 'just the opinion of another guy', because of the supernatural factor that outright breaks natural laws, or our understanding of them.

Luke 22 is about a specific event, associated with a specific date whose origins (Exodus 11-12) lie in other events.

If the the date is what you're going on, that proves nothing in this context. That would be like taking the fact that science means knowledge to say that anything you know is science . . . pedantic and petty at best, non-meaning to the discussion context at worst.

If its the prediction made, context shows a clear difference. Who is making the prediction/prophecy? Now compare that specific person to anyone studying star signs . . . big difference. Even besides the person issue, prophecy is fundamentally different from omenisms because of the claimed source. The process is very different. And so on.

If there's something else, then i cant see it. Simply being associated with dates is addressed by my science = knowledge example above. Simple predictions/prophecies are fundamentally different. In fact, even if some astrology was used, it would not come close to being "at the foundation of many religions". Immense difference. Simple association proves almost nothing (in the context of our discussion). Never mind association, even direct correlation is said to not prove causation in scientific studies. I don't necessarily agree with that, but im just pointing out the big difference between your initial claim and the evidence provided.
I have one more idea about your thinking here, but it adds little to this specific discussion. It basically brings it down to opinion. I would be interested in hearing your understanding of these things for the personal interest it is to me, but in this discussion it adds very little.

Read Wisdom of Solomon, its apocryphal. That's personal opinion based advice, little more. I think its good for shaping the mind, even if not every specific thing within it is perfect.
 

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No however it’s extremely intriguing at how accurate it can be. I wouldn’t mind entertaining belief in it, I’m just not big into “belief” systems. I believe in what I can do in life and achieving it. The rest is irrelevant.
 
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