[Debate] Do you believe in God? If so why? And If not, reasons? :)

[Stencil]

Oh, and I'm totally out of my league here, when it comes to physics.
Someone please punch some holes in this? ;_;

Can't help there... physics is not my strong point... >.>

 

[Vegeta]

I find it amusing how you scold someone for giving God 'humanly qualities', yet you do the same.
I don't think you quite understand the ramifications of the properties you give God.

Let us, for a second, accept the notion that there is a God. This God is, following the Jewish, Islamic and Christian belief, omnipotent, omnipresent, omniscient, infinite and everything. He is Alpha and Omega.
By themselves, these qualities have 'consequences'.

Thoughts, yo.
God, in most monotheistic religions, knows everything. His knowledge is, therefore, infinite. There is no limit to God's knowledge; he even knows what'll happen in the future. That, if we ignore the 'time is relative'-speech, petches God on a pedestal where his knowledge and memory is completely and utterly infinite. Even if we consider that the universe might end, causing the removal of all mass and energy, alongside the logic of 'time', God will still see the future, but it'll be a future of nothing. Just as we have optical memories of a completely dark room, God, in all his almightiness, will continue to 'percieve' and 'remember'.
Do you agree so far? God knows everything, regardless of time. Therefore; God has 'infinite knowledge' and must therefore have 'infinite memory'.

Now, what is a thought? "They’re really just electro-chemical reactions" (

You must be registered for see links

) No matter how you put it, the ability to think requires a certain amount of things; like Neurons, Synapses and Axons. Thoughts are, essentially, electrical and chemical signals. All in all, the ability to think requires one to be some kind of matter. You have to be physical.

"When you read these words, for example, the photons associated with the patterns of the letters hit your retina, and their energy triggers an electrical signal in the light-detecting cells there. That electrical signal propagates like a wave along the long threads called axons that are part of the connections between neurons. When the signal reaches the end of an axon, it causes the release of chemical neurotransmitters into the synapse, a chemical junction between the axon tip and target neurons. A target neuron responds with its own electrical signal, which, in turn, spreads to other neurons. Within a few hundred milliseconds, the signal has spread to billions of neurons in several dozen interconnected areas of your brain and you have perceived these words. (All that and you probably didn’t even break a sweat.)

The fact that you are then able to convert the perception of these shapes into symbols, language, and meaning is a whole other story—and a good indication of the complexity of neuroscience. Trying to imagine how trillions of connections and billions of simultaneous transmissions coalesce inside your brain to form a thought is a little like trying to look at the leaves, roots, snakes, birds, ticks, deer—and everything else in a forest—at the same moment." (

You must be registered for see links

)

If we consider that God needs these basic, logical components to think; God's mass and volume would be infinite.
If we consider that God doesn't need Neurotransmitters, Axons, Neurons or Synapses to think, then, somehow, God must have an infinite amount of electrical and chemical signals somewhere that somehow stores information.

How would this thing think? It would have an infinite mass yet have no volume.
But we're just scraping the surface. Even if we consider that God can think, how does he store an infinite amount of information?
Again, Neurons, Axons, Synapses. God can think of everything at once while he remembers everything at once. It is physically impossible for an entity of infinite memory and knowledge to exist.

You must be registered for see links

You must be registered for see links

You must be registered for see links

You must be registered for see links

If that was too theoretical and whoop-de-doo for you (it certainly was for me), how about we grab something more simple?

God, according to Religion, possesses the ability to be everywhere at once. God is infinite in everything; able to do everything.
First of all, it's impossible for God to be infinite. Infinity means without end, and, logically, leaves no holes. Following this logic there would be nothing but God, in the sense that God would be everything that is, meaning that I'm God, and you're God, and my dog is God.
Basically; "If the God is infinite, then God is all that there is. There is nothing other than God. All of existence is God and God is all that exists."
If God has the ability to travel faster than Light, then he'd have to consists of nothingness, which would give him a limit since something besides nothing exists. If God consists of nothing, then God, technically, doesn't exist.
If God, on the other hand, consists of something, then, to be everywhere, he'd have to have an infinite volume, which would, logically, make him consists of matter. If you consists of matter and have a volume, then, per difinition, you have a mass, too. If your volume is infinite, as is your mass.
The only exception is photons, who are considered massless objects. Photons, however, are unable to travel faster than the speed of light, which means that God's influence is restricted to the speed of light.

You must be registered for see links

You must be registered for see links

You must be registered for see links

You must be registered for see links

You must be registered for see links

You must be registered for see links

(for the lulz)

You must be registered for see links

You must be registered for see links

You must be registered for see links

Your God would have to be impossibly complex, consists of nothing and fill everything to exists. Not even being all energy in the universe would give him these properties.

You must be registered for see links

Shit, my head.

Finally, someone using their brain and questioning what is and isn't without blindly believing without proof. Bravo and + rep

Oh, and I'm totally out of my league here, when it comes to physics.
Someone please punch some holes in this? ;_;

Impossible to punch holes in logic. I know it's hard to think that this may be all there is. It's hard to let go of the security blanket that is religion. Ever since man looked at the sun and it burnt his eyes and he noticed things in the light grow and things that don't get light die man has looked above for a more powerful entity than themselves to explain things. Unfortunately modern science is quickly proving that a god is not necessary for our universe to be created.

One more Q since NO ONE can debunk my previous statements.....
Why no mention of dinosaurs in the story about Noah? Answer: No one knew about them yet. We didn't have paleontologists then. So man listed all the animals he was aware of in the story. Making any sense yet.
You can't put faith in a 2000 year old story that has changed every time someone else got their hands on it.

In the 1990's, words in the bible were changed so as not to be derogatory towards anyone(ie;words like blackness being described as evil were changed to darkness so the black community was not offended). Now I understand why they did it, but how do you edit 'gods' words to better fit your world and still expect it to hold credibility?
Imagine 2000 years of this going on

 

[Vegeta]

I can see your point. Bt you've started to be disrespectful again just after saying what you admitted was wrong.

Please stop getting butthurt in a discussion about religion, There's no crying in religious discussions. Only room for hasty, ill informed decisions, bloodshed and war against those who don't believe you(At least that's what the world has done for eons)

You must be registered for see images

 

[Stencil]

Please stop getting butthurt in a discussion about religion, There's no crying in religious discussions. Only room for hasty, ill informed decisions, bloodshed and war against those who don't believe you(At least that's what the world has done for eons)

You must be registered for see images

I get that but I'm sorry that I have respect for peoples opinions, but there is a difference from being strong on an opinion and being an ****. For example Xentinel is strong on his view but respects others. You on the other hand are just being arrogant, and even after you supposedly "Apologized".

 

[Vegeta]

Wow, I'm arrogant but the guy who tells people 'Repent, god will forgive you' is OK, right? Stop over reacting to my posts.
Look, it hurts seeing people presented with so much evidence still persist about it. It pains me. I remember when I did believe. I also remember when I started questioning things without just blindly believing it first. The fact is religion has done more harm to humanity and led to more deaths than any disease. It's an archaic ideal unfit for todays society. It's a set of rules impossible for anyone to live by. And to simply be able to do anything and then ask to be forgiven and it's cool is ridiculous and far too convenient.
Lets face it, god create everything including humans but had to sneak around like a rapist and impregnate a woman to have a kid. He couldn't just make one more? Didn't he make us all? I can't believe Joseph fell for that line. I imagine something like this....

You must be registered for see images

 

[Boskarta]

The standard god that demands our attention and belief etc etc I do not and will never believe in, even if it's proven to be real I will not believe in it for it must be a major douche.


"God" I believe is just a means of control, created by man.
In the past everyone would be forced to believe it and "miracles" that supposedly happened are either badly described or the people at the time never knew what the heck was going on since they weren't all that smart compared to the people of today.


Why would God abide to human standards? Why would it be male or female?
If God created everything and is so great why are humans so crap? Naturally we are violent selfish creatures that consume and destroy everything, we are ruining this planet simply because we can't get enough.
If it made us, God made us like that if it gave us free will why did make us so easily lean to the bad side of things?

And why do some people get horrible lives when they did nothing.
For instance a baby born blind, deaf and dumb.
What did it do to deserve that? And what could it's parents have done that was bad enough for God to do worse than kill a person?



I do however believe that it's possible a being did create everything in the universe and generally runs the show, but is nothing like what we humans imagine, our brains can't understand something so vastly powerful.


Just because people who don't believe in God don't know how the universe was created, does not at all mean that God is real.
That's a pretty pathetic and close minded thing to say in my opinion.
You believe that's how it happened, but you don't know, never saw it happen, never will and wouldn't live long enough to process the information because humans just can't we are tiny insignificant beings of little consequence to the rest of the universe.

 

[Mante]

Your as bad as I am lol, "What they know not" Now you must be quoting your boy Jesus lol. BTW how did that dying for our sins thing work out? Did it make the world better. Got much worse since that 'supposedly happened.

Still waiting for anyone to be able to prove my previous points wrong ie: how did god create light and darkness on the 1st day, but didn't make the sun till the 4th? Hmmm.....

sorry but we Muslims don't believe that Jesus was crusified for our sins to make the world better (as believed by Christians). We do not believed he was even crusified. That story is all made up by people who came after him (specaially Saul/Paul). Jesus was a messanger like Adam, Jacob, Solomon, Job, Abraham, Joseph, David, Moses, Aron, Noah, Hud, Muhamed etc. who carried same mission ie. to preach Oneness of God, worship only God etc. Using Bible itself, I can prove to Christians that Jesus was not son of god, but a messanger.
And yes, Bible does say that light and darkness (day and night) was created before sun. This explains that part of Bible is written by man, its not A-Z word of God. Btw, Quran doesn't state such statement. Quran even supports the Big bang theory, so why not take a look at it? ^^

 

[Ashflura]

I find it amusing how you scold someone for giving God 'humanly qualities', yet you do the same.
I don't think you quite understand the ramifications of the properties you give God.

Let us, for a second, accept the notion that there is a God. This God is, following the Jewish, Islamic and Christian belief, omnipotent, omnipresent, omniscient, infinite and everything. He is Alpha and Omega.
By themselves, these qualities have 'consequences'.

Thoughts, yo.
God, in most monotheistic religions, knows everything. His knowledge is, therefore, infinite. There is no limit to God's knowledge; he even knows what'll happen in the future. That, if we ignore the 'time is relative'-speech, petches God on a pedestal where his knowledge and memory is completely and utterly infinite. Even if we consider that the universe might end, causing the removal of all mass and energy, alongside the logic of 'time', God will still see the future, but it'll be a future of nothing. Just as we have optical memories of a completely dark room, God, in all his almightiness, will continue to 'percieve' and 'remember'.
Do you agree so far? God knows everything, regardless of time. Therefore; God has 'infinite knowledge' and must therefore have 'infinite memory'.

Now, what is a thought? "They’re really just electro-chemical reactions" (

You must be registered for see links

) No matter how you put it, the ability to think requires a certain amount of things; like Neurons, Synapses and Axons. Thoughts are, essentially, electrical and chemical signals. All in all, the ability to think requires one to be some kind of matter. You have to be physical.

"When you read these words, for example, the photons associated with the patterns of the letters hit your retina, and their energy triggers an electrical signal in the light-detecting cells there. That electrical signal propagates like a wave along the long threads called axons that are part of the connections between neurons. When the signal reaches the end of an axon, it causes the release of chemical neurotransmitters into the synapse, a chemical junction between the axon tip and target neurons. A target neuron responds with its own electrical signal, which, in turn, spreads to other neurons. Within a few hundred milliseconds, the signal has spread to billions of neurons in several dozen interconnected areas of your brain and you have perceived these words. (All that and you probably didn’t even break a sweat.)

The fact that you are then able to convert the perception of these shapes into symbols, language, and meaning is a whole other story—and a good indication of the complexity of neuroscience. Trying to imagine how trillions of connections and billions of simultaneous transmissions coalesce inside your brain to form a thought is a little like trying to look at the leaves, roots, snakes, birds, ticks, deer—and everything else in a forest—at the same moment." (

You must be registered for see links

)

If we consider that God needs these basic, logical components to think; God's mass and volume would be infinite.
If we consider that God doesn't need Neurotransmitters, Axons, Neurons or Synapses to think, then, somehow, God must have an infinite amount of electrical and chemical signals somewhere that somehow stores information.

How would this thing think? It would have an infinite mass yet have no volume.
But we're just scraping the surface. Even if we consider that God can think, how does he store an infinite amount of information?
Again, Neurons, Axons, Synapses. God can think of everything at once while he remembers everything at once. It is physically impossible for an entity of infinite memory and knowledge to exist.

You must be registered for see links

You must be registered for see links

You must be registered for see links

You must be registered for see links

If that was too theoretical and whoop-de-doo for you (it certainly was for me), how about we grab something more simple?

God, according to Religion, possesses the ability to be everywhere at once. God is infinite in everything; able to do everything.
First of all, it's impossible for God to be infinite. Infinity means without end, and, logically, leaves no holes. Following this logic there would be nothing but God, in the sense that God would be everything that is, meaning that I'm God, and you're God, and my dog is God.
Basically; "If the God is infinite, then God is all that there is. There is nothing other than God. All of existence is God and God is all that exists."
If God has the ability to travel faster than Light, then he'd have to consists of nothingness, which would give him a limit since something besides nothing exists. If God consists of nothing, then God, technically, doesn't exist.
If God, on the other hand, consists of something, then, to be everywhere, he'd have to have an infinite volume, which would, logically, make him consists of matter. If you consists of matter and have a volume, then, per difinition, you have a mass, too. If your volume is infinite, as is your mass.
The only exception is photons, who are considered massless objects. Photons, however, are unable to travel faster than the speed of light, which means that God's influence is restricted to the speed of light.

You must be registered for see links

You must be registered for see links

You must be registered for see links

You must be registered for see links

You must be registered for see links

You must be registered for see links

(for the lulz)

You must be registered for see links

You must be registered for see links

You must be registered for see links

Your God would have to be impossibly complex, consists of nothing and fill everything to exists. Not even being all energy in the universe would give him these properties.

You must be registered for see links

Shit, my head.

I gotta agree, that took a whole amount of energy to read. And wow, I applaud you for going to such stakes to provide such a deep analysis. Never studied physics and neuroscience, but I can understand where the article is leading too.

The one fault that is brought up though, is that those who try to disprove God's existence, try to explain it from laws of this world. He is beyond our mind's capability to understand in the form of logic we use as humans. Some religions stress God is everywhere, but that goes against the very nature of Islam. He states that there is nothing that resembles him in this universe. So using our human resources to try and understand something out of reach becomes illogical.

It's a simple concept that doesn't need to be overcomplicated. He is not something that we can reach with our physical senses(sight, touch, smell, etc), however as a Muslim, Islam encourages us to use our senses and common sense to recognise this universe has not come about because of a simple accident, or millions of years of trial and error, but by the work of a Creator. A carefully designed system of laws, that humans are restricted to. Who better to tell you what's best than the very Designer of the world?

There is a lot for us to discover (all the neuroscience phenomonons), and some have a bit more free time to dedicate their lives to certain studies of research, but when it comes down to it, no matter how much argument and discussion is throttled back and forth about proving/disproving the existence of god, as a Muslim, I'm not required to pour time on to arguments that have already been answered. Only advise, and leave it up to the will of God to determine the fate of things.

And I might sound like some drone or zombie to whoever is reading this, who is ignorant and following a faith blindly, but hey I can flip it right in reverse to undermine how the media has such a strong hold on people. In the end, its our own lives we're living.

 

[Vegeta]

sorry but we Muslims don't believe that Jesus was crusified for our sins to make the world better (as believed by Christians). We do not believed he was even crusified. That story is all made up by people who came after him (specaially Saul/Paul). Jesus was a messanger like Adam, Jacob, Solomon, Job, Abraham, Joseph, David, Moses, Aron, Noah, Hud, Muhamed etc. who carried same mission ie. to preach Oneness of God, worship only God etc. Using Bible itself, I can prove to Christians that Jesus was not son of god, but a messanger.
And yes, Bible does say that light and darkness (day and night) was created before sun. This explains that part of Bible is written by man, its not A-Z word of God. Btw, Quran doesn't state such statement. Quran even supports the Big bang theory, so why not take a look at it? ^^

I have, see that linky up there.....it covers that as well. Thanks though

 

[shogun973]

religion was made to expalin things not understood at the time.....im a christian but once you go to college being a bio major its hard

 

[Galen Marek]

God is nothing more than a creation of man to control other man.

All the old religions focus on establishing codes of conduct and behavior, deeming what is right or wrong. To do so, they used the most powerful tool known to affect human condition: Fear of the Unknown. By explaining things that humans didn't understand or know how to explain, Religion took the upper hand and established itself as the truth. This truth was nothing more than a way to both gain validity and to also induce fear, thus forcing others to follow the conduct and rules set by the religion.

Take the 10 commandments for example. They are nothing more than the rules of basic society; the rules needed for a large group of people who lived in a community-like structure to endure. "Don't kill your fellow man" is the basic essence of it. Don't kill other humans because its bad for the group in the long run. And if we didn't have that rule, that basic rule, humanity wouldn't be what it is today. The don't desire your neighbors wife for example, was an easy one. In non monogamic societies, males fought often for the sake of women and diseases spread, lives were loss, genetic traits were mingled, instability existed in the most "basic" form. To avoid that, the notion of a monogamic society was established by that simple rule.

Religion is nothing more than an obsolete tool to control men by other men. Even if some religions may not fit this definition, most, specially the older ones, do. One of the reasons that its been declining in the last 2 centuries is mostly because its "fear" isn't as powerful as it was before. The earth rotates around the sun and we evolved from other primates. Adam and Eve were not the first humans and we aren't all the fruit of some big incest perpetuated by a god who punishes it. And no, the world wasn't created in 7 days but rather in millions and millions of years. Because we can now explain all of this and the hand of God isn't in either of it, Religion lost its primordial power over humanity. We are not afraid anymore. Lol

 

[Vegeta]

Bravo, well said

 

[~WastelandSociety~]

I for one believe in God.
I don't see why most people don't give a thought that God could exist, saying God couldn't be made from nothing,yet they except the fact that nothing made something (atoms).


I have my own experiences to believe there's an afterlife (my uncle death and what he said,etc) ,but people need to see it with their own eyes.

 

[Stencil]

I for one believe in God.
I don't see why most people don't give a thought that God could exist, saying God couldn't be made from nothing,yet they except the fact that nothing made something (atoms).


I have my own experiences to believe there's an afterlife (my uncle death and what he said,etc) ,but people need to see it with their own eyes.

I've given a though if he exists and I don't think he does, and see him with his own eyes? Don't think that's happened to anyone :/

 

[Olorin]

no

why? well because there are many explonations that make much more sense, if we would always go for the simplest answer and cling to it we would still be living in forests

 

[Your Creepy Stalker]

I do not belive in a invisible, intangible homicidal adulterer.

 

[Stencil]

I think most opinions have been expressed and I feel that there needs to be no more posts so, -Thread Closed-