Well the databook says that it changes it's properties. If the databook were taken to be true and Yata is meant to have a weakness then I'd say it's weakness could be the entire shield changing it's properties rather than small parts of it. Meaning that it could render any attack ineffective but only being able to block one attack at a time.
Or if what you say is true, then only the part of it hit by fire will turn to water right? What if the lightning bolt or let's say Night Moth were to be used through the fire? Will it go through the area of Yata Mirror that turned to liquid and make it's way to Itachi's Susanoo?
To manipulate someone when he is in the weakest moment while knowing where direct his anger is easy even for primitive being.
Posting recycyled scans which are off-topic that is the best you do.
Noone take you seriously, because you lack common sense, that all I can say to you.
All you can is just posting recycled stuff, and short retort which everyone is capable of, adding your issue with going off-topic and being rustled sorry but kid, I will not even bother with you.
Educate yourself and learn, because you don't know how debate, you only know how to post your bullshit opinion.
What a garbage way to downplay manga facts. Manipulate who? BZ was only talking with White Zetsu.
Sasuke didn't even know of their existence and they were far away from the fight you idiot.
I'm posting only MANGA FACTS.
Let me shower you with more FACTS you don't want to accept because Itachi solos your fav.
Well the databook says that it changes it's properties. If the databook were taken to be true and Yata is meant to have a weakness then I'd say it's weakness could be the entire shield changing it's properties rather than small parts of it. Meaning that it could render any attack ineffective but only being able to block one attack at a time.
Or if what you say is true, then only the part of it hit by fire will turn to water right? What if the lightning bolt or let's say Night Moth were to be used through the fire? Will it go through the area of Yata Mirror that turned to liquid and make it's way to Itachi's Susanoo?
According to the Databook page that Bolt posted, any attack used against it will be ineffective since it changes it's properties to block the incoming attack.
There's reason for me to believe that being hit by multiple different large scale attacks or smaller scale attacks but on a single point of the shield could be a way to bypass it's ultimate defence since it could only change it's properties to block one of the attacks while this is happening.
Using a large Katon to make a large portion of the shield change it's properties to water and detonating a TBB to byppass the iquid properties of that area of the shield and obliterating the Susanoo behind it.
According to the Databook page that Bolt posted, any attack used against it will be ineffective since it changes it's properties to block the incoming attack.
There's reason for me to believe that being hit by multiple different large scale attacks or smaller scale attacks but on a single point of the shield could be a way to bypass it's ultimate defence since it could only change it's properties to block one of the attacks while this is happening.
Using a large Katon to make a large portion of the shield change it's properties to water and detonating a TBB to byppass the iquid properties of that area of the shield and obliterating the Susanoo behind it.
>where Kishimoto has stated it ?, How could we know it was Kishimoto instead of specific characters stating it as Black Zetsu ?
How can we even take databook hype seriously if it full of inconsistency and exaggeration.
It can be taken seriously simply because,
1) It has yet to fail. Just because you may have judged what it's blocked so far as not impressive doesn't mean it hasn't successfully stopped all of the attacks.
2) Kishimoto had Black Zetsu state it, when Black Zetsu did not have to and even took it a step further and validated it himself in the databook.
3) The shield alongside its brother and sister are clearly of the highest tier in the Naruto universe. Their origins are not known, could of existed before even Kaguya for all we know. Most people don't even know they exist and those that have heard of it just think it's some fairy tale legend. I'm not sure why people have trouble accepting that the Yata Mirror is just that good, I think it's because Itachi used it. I get the feeling that people are looking at Itachi himself and his raw-power and downplaying the Yata Mirror because of it... "It can't be that powerful because Itachi was using it. He's outclassed by several now" Sorry but the shield is that powerful. There's a reason Sasuke didn't get the weapons, Kishi would either have to retcon or Sasuke with his chakra reserves would be stupidly broken.
> I wouldn't be so sure, because having too much confidence can make you loose. I am ready if you are.
Geniuses in battle or in shinobi arts generally and what does it have to do with mind of them ? I meant manga fact shows them as highly dependant on love even more then Senjuu. It wouldn't be too hard for Black Zetsu to stick two pieces together and came with idea killing their loved ones or making it happen so Uchiha in desperation and having unstable mind would in rage listen to everyone who explain to him who did it, and of course Black Zetsu put blame on Senjuu each time.
It doesn't take intelligence or at least not too much intelligence to do that, the primitive being with art of treachery mastered along with being snicky bastard as Black Zetsu can easily manipulate people while having unstable mind in desperation moment.
Didn't read. Skimmed and from what I saw, I'm dropping this point. I'm sure that you don't actually believe that Black Zetsu is an unitelligent being, so there isn't any need to debate it pointlessly.
Very good point indeed. I could admit that I am completly wrong, only if I consider Black Zetsu intelligent being... instead he seems more like type who use all the tricks he saw in the past used by people on each other, which is not too hard even for primitive being which is able to mimic someone.
> He's at the very least intelligent, if we're being completely honest he's likely above average in intelligence. You can downplay the Uchiha's all you want, but every Uchiha we've seen thus far has been intelligent and while yes they do have emotional issues that can be exploited, it takes a smart man to figure that out and and even smarter man to exploit it. Black zetsu's entire plan would even have worked had Kaguya been heavily restricted.
@ bold part, and does part make no sense sorry. BZ stated that both Totsuka and Yata could only be found by Itachi, so he has never seen them in past and he only stated what the legend say about it.
1) BZ did not state that. What he said, was that the reason Orochimaru could never find it was because the weapon was not physical.
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2) He didn't have to see it in the past. He took note of what Yata had done so far, stop all of Sasuke's attacks and maybe even change shape and came to the conclusion that it was the Yata mirror.
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In viz translation if I am not wrong BZ said "With Totsuka blade long , Itachi is invicible or as it says."
Because it was necessary. If you take a look at the panels before, the snakes heads are huge and very close. With Susano'o in current use, Itachi was a clear and close target. It simply wasn't possible to cut the snakes down before they hit him. he had to use Yata mirror.
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1)Unless it is specified I have more reasons to believe that Susanoo uses grip force to wield these weapons.
It could be another canse if they were attached to Susanoo since activation, but BZ stated Itachi found them and equipped them to his Susanoo so unless he lied I believe it can be grabbed.
1) Fair enough. Any argument that it is or isn't is just speculation anyway. Kishi failed to explain the mechanics of Susano'o and Yata mirror.
2) It's not that I disagree, but Black Zetsu did not really state that. The fact that Orochimaru searched for them all his life leads to people to that assumption but also just as plausible that orochimaru didn't find them because they aren't tool that you can find. Someone could simply be born with them.
I read . I am sure they aren't physcial because if they were how could they grab soul ?
Both Susanoo and chakra arm while being etheral can crush or catch something.
1) Ok. I was just looking for an explanation there.
2) They can touch Yata mirror. They can't grab it.
1) I already replied to it.
2) No problem. Well but I didn't agree that Yata can idenitfy the user, because there is no reasons from manga for me to believe otherwise.
2) I meant that Yata can NOT spread/extend until the moment something hit it and then it expand to shield wielder at the biggest space possibly so attack won't reach Itachi.
Debateable. If Yata mirror itself changes shape then fine, your point is valid. If Itachi does, then no. He can alter it before any attack hits, providing he has the reaction time. In my opinion, it's likely both.
But again this would require primitive intelligence from Yata, which I haven't seen any signs of that.
Not necessarily. It's a spiritual shield created to stop any attack. It could simply be automatic.. Keep in mind this is fiction.
1) That is the problem. It is up to our interpretation what we see if image is described by words or it is not clearly visible what happened. Please try maybe you convince me about it.
2) Sure, I looked but I still can not recognize any specific trait which could confirm it was mirror extending upwards instead of blast of explosion simply being curved to irregular shape which was presented by line. so Upwards part of explosion was tanked by Complete Susanoo.
It's not really up for individual interpretation. Even if the image is unclear to you(it's not for me) it's clear what Kishi meant to depict. Why would he hype a shield up as invincible, then go on to draw it failing? He even after this chapter in the next databook states that in can change every one of it's attributes in accordance with the attack to render it ineffective.
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Why would he do this if he drew a panel that showed the opposite?
Shape and size are attributes correct? Because that's all that would need to be altered to make the shield omni-directional.
It can be taken seriously simply because,
1) It has yet to fail. Just because you may have judged what it's blocked so far as not impressive doesn't mean it hasn't successfully stopped all of the attacks.
2) Kishimoto had Black Zetsu state it, when Black Zetsu did not have to and even took it a step further and validated it himself in the databook.
3) The shield alongside its brother and sister are clearly of the highest tier in the Naruto universe. Their origins are not known, could of existed before even Kaguya for all we know. Most people don't even know they exist and those that have heard of it just think it's some fairy tale legend. I'm not sure why people have trouble accepting that the Yata Mirror is just that good, I think it's because Itachi used it. I get the feeling that people are looking at Itachi himself and his raw-power and downplaying the Yata Mirror because of it... "It can't be that powerful because Itachi was using it. He's outclassed by several now" Sorry but the shield is that powerful. There's a reason Sasuke didn't get the weapons, Kishi would either have to retcon or Sasuke with his chakra reserves would be stupidly broken.
1) I know, but how it would fail against anything if it's appearance was short and has never happened again ?
2) fair enough... but still lack of more feats, especially against stronger attack aka moon buster TBB, PS slash(powerfull penetrating attack) make it rather not fulfilling all requriements to be called invincible..., that why I am not sure if Kishi means that just as hype (against godly attacks) or he really mean that. Edo Itachi not using it against Edo Nagato didn't help this case either as it would be perfect way that Yata is invincible or no even against Rinnegan.
3) partially true, however more important is lack of feats against all kind of attack(just one of each type) which databook III mentioned in yata description. Also not knowledge about it's origin or how Itachi found them make it even more hard to believe. Also it was never mentioned if Yata required chakra use or no.
Also last issue I have with it is it was said Yata and Totsuka could be used without Susanoo, so while in alive Itachi's case it is understandable that he wanted to die so he used them along with Susanoo, it doesn't make sense for Edo Itachi to use Totsuka along Susanoo instead of unleashing Totsuka and sealing even faster Nagato. Lack of Yata against CT also makes it even harder to believe in that.
Didn't read. Skimmed and from what I saw, I'm dropping this point. I'm sure that you don't actually believe that Black Zetsu is an unitelligent being, so there isn't any need to debate it pointlessly.
> He's at the very least intelligent, if we're being completely honest he's likely above average in intelligence. You can downplay the Uchiha's all you want, but every Uchiha we've seen thus far has been intelligent and while yes they do have emotional issues that can be exploited, it takes a smart man to figure that out and and even smarter man to exploit it. Black zetsu's entire plan would even have worked had Kaguya been heavily restricted.
@ bold part, well this is where our opinions differ.
I mean isn't it coinsidence that BZ only tried to manipulate Uchiha clan memebers when they lost someone close to them or when their hatred was spiking up for some reason. Just take example of Indra, BZ didn't approach him until Indra feel betrayed and was blind by hate towards father and his brother Ashura.
It was same in all cases. Also do you really believe it take smartass to manipulate someone's will who is in desperation/blind by hate unable to think properly ? I am sure it doesn't take smartass to do that, because all which need to be done is direct that anger/hate towards some aim, which in Uchiha case were Senjuu clan.
1) BZ did not state that. What he said, was that the reason Orochimaru could never find it was because the weapon was not physical.
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2) He didn't have to see it in the past. He took note of what Yata had done so far, stop all of Sasuke's attacks and maybe even change shape and came to the conclusion that it was the Yata mirror.
1) well I didn't look at it that way, I agree so fair enough.
2) Ok, great but the legend always take place from something, so what was origin of Yata's legend ?
Also How could be believe it could repel TBB or some mountain buster/mountain slasher attack or even above. From what he have seen there was nothing which could hints or imply that, so in my eyes this is just hyping Itachi up.
Because it was necessary. If you take a look at the panels before, the snakes heads are huge and very close. With Susano'o in current use, Itachi was a clear and close target. It simply wasn't possible to cut the snakes down before they hit him. he had to use Yata mirror.
1) Fair enough. Any argument that it is or isn't is just speculation anyway. Kishi failed to explain the mechanics of Susano'o and Yata mirror.
2) It's not that I disagree, but Black Zetsu did not really state that. The fact that Orochimaru searched for them all his life leads to people to that assumption but also just as plausible that orochimaru didn't find them because they aren't tool that you can find. Someone could simply be born with them.
1) Great to hear that, That is main issue with Yata hype and little feats to justify it.
2) so that is up to point of view specific person, right ? @ bold part I think it would be streetch to even let one think that.
^^ if it was the case as you said then why Susanoo's hand fingers are bend in that scan above ?
If it was just hanging or sticking to arm of Susanoo the Ok, I would I agree, however bend fingers of Susanoo imply/hints it was grab which required for Susanoo to wield it, so that alone point suggest that Either Susanoo arm or Chakra arm can grab it as well.
Debateable. If Yata mirror itself changes shape then fine, your point is valid. If Itachi does, then no. He can alter it before any attack hits, providing he has the reaction time. In my opinion, it's likely both.
@ bold part, sorry but I find it foolish to believe. why ?
Just take a look for automatic gun or not automatic gun. If you keep pressing then automatic gun keep shooting, while in not automatic gun'c ase if you keep pressing then it just shoot one time and you will need to release button, before again pressing to shoot again.
Based on that not complex mechanism. It is impossible to do both, as Itachi command and Yata Mirror's automtic defence would collide with each other, if Itachi sent signal to Yata to defend while Yata is already on it.
So either you believe Yata has it's own automatic defence system, then anything which doesn't hit it and doesn't not make blast which hit it's surface can simply move about it and attack Itachi directy if Itachi is unable to raise it in attack's direction in time.
If this is latter case then, there is alot of characters which exceed Itachi's reaction time so they would kill him before Itachi could know what hit him.
It's not really up for individual interpretation. Even if the image is unclear to you(it's not for me) it's clear what Kishi meant to depict. Why would he hype a shield up as invincible, then go on to draw it failing? He even after this chapter in the next databook states that in can change every one of it's attributes in accordance with the attack to render it ineffective.
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Why would he do this if he drew a panel that showed the opposite?
that is called logical deduction, but drawing is unclear, not my fault.
Also if Kishi really wanted to prove Yata is omnidirectional then he would draw explosion around Itachi hitting from all sides with curves of Yata expanding around Itachi and with BZ's commenting on it, make it not debatable.
However this way it was done , we can only use logical deduction which in Kishi's universe can be not best thing, if author hasn't keep all rules without change.
That is correct, but it still doesn't prove that shield can be omni-directional.
There is not specification how much shield can change it's form and what extent or range of it is.
1) I know, but how it would fail against anything if it's appearance was short and has never happened again ?
2) fair enough... but still lack of more feats, especially against stronger attack aka moon buster TBB, PS slash(powerfull penetrating attack) make it rather not fulfilling all requriements to be called invincible..., that why I am not sure if Kishi means that just as hype (against godly attacks) or he really mean that. Edo Itachi not using it against Edo Nagato didn't help this case either as it would be perfect way that Yata is invincible or no even against Rinnegan.
3) partially true, however more important is lack of feats against all kind of attack(just one of each type) which databook III mentioned in yata description. Also not knowledge about it's origin or how Itachi found them make it even more hard to believe. Also it was never mentioned if Yata required chakra use or no.
Also last issue I have with it is it was said Yata and Totsuka could be used without Susanoo, so while in alive Itachi's case it is understandable that he wanted to die so he used them along with Susanoo, it doesn't make sense for Edo Itachi to use Totsuka along Susanoo instead of unleashing Totsuka and sealing even faster Nagato. Lack of Yata against CT also makes it even harder to believe in that.
1) That's a pretty moot point. It's appearance being short doesn't change the fact that in the manga it has lived up to it's hype and therefore there isn't any reason to believe it wouldn't have continued to live up to it, had it's use continued further.
2) It's lack of feats that can be considered impressive by all is certainly disheartening. The war arc is full of missed opportunities. It would have been the perfect opportunity for Itachi to have really shown us invincibility. If you're questioning whether it can handle bijuu bombs and such, don't. It can.
> Madara stopped a bijuu bomb with his fan.
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> Wood can stop bijuu bombs. (Hashirama)
If Madara can stop one with what is more than likely a man-made fan, and Hashirama can use a large enough wood shield to stop them, why should Yata mirror, given it's hype and origin(spirit world) have any trouble.
It's a mirror that probably dates before the Sage itself as there is no mention of him or any of his family using it. That would mean that it dates to before the Juubi was split into 9. I'm sure you see where I'm going with this.
Even a Juubi bomb would not stop it. U_U
As for Edo Itachi, there was no point when he needed to use Yata mirror against Nagato. A missed opportunity by Kishi, but we can't fault the tool for the authors laziness.
3) The only thing to say here, is about the chakra. When I said, "Sasuke would be stupidly broken with his chakra reserves" I wasn't implying that Yata Mirror directly uses chakra. I was referring to the fact that Sasuke would able to keep Susano'o and even Perfect Susano'o up using chakra more than long enough to kill anyone.
4) This is another reason why I personally find it more likely that Itachi was born with them, or awakened them with his Susano'o. It's basically implied that others can use them without Susano'o and knowing what a chakra taxing/blindness causing technique it is, I don't know why Itachi would add them to Susano'o. It makes more sense for him to have never had a choice in the first place about it. Again though, this is all individual interpretation based on logical deduction because the author failed to give us enough information.
> Itachi did not need to use Yata Mirror against CT.
@ bold part, well this is where our opinions differ.
I mean isn't it coinsidence that BZ only tried to manipulate Uchiha clan memebers when they lost someone close to them or when their hatred was spiking up for some reason. Just take example of Indra, BZ didn't approach him until Indra feel betrayed and was blind by hate towards father and his brother Ashura.
It was same in all cases. Also do you really believe it take smartass to manipulate someone's will who is in desperation/blind by hate unable to think properly ? I am sure it doesn't take smartass to do that, because all which need to be done is direct that anger/hate towards some aim, which in Uchiha case were Senjuu clan.
> I'd like to point out that the Uchiha were not all like this. In fact most did not even awaken sharingan. It's after they come to know love, and lose it, that they awaken sharingan and become very emotional.
> Yes, I really do believe it takes intelligence at a fairly high level to manipulate an entire clan of level- headed people(With the exception of of a few) that are not only intelligent themselves, but also considerably stronger than you.
1) well I didn't look at it that way, I agree so fair enough.
2) Ok, great but the legend always take place from something, so what was origin of Yata's legend ?
Also How could be believe it could repel TBB or some mountain buster/mountain slasher attack or even above. From what he have seen there was nothing which could hints or imply that, so in my eyes this is just hyping Itachi up.
2) I wasn't denying the existence of Yata mirror's legend. Nor do I claim to know anything about how the legend goes.
3) I pretty much covered it a few points above, but he had plenty to go on. He obviously knew of Yata's existence, either by seeing it for himself, or by knowing the legend. What he saw was,
> All of Sasuke's attacks reflected. Something Susano'o on it's own does not typically do.
> He may have seen the shield change shape to completely protect Susano'o, or deduced that's what happened here.
1) Great to hear that, That is main issue with Yata hype and little feats to justify it.
2) so that is up to point of view specific person, right ? @ bold part I think it would be streetch to even let one think that.
2) Yes it is. It's not as big of a stretch as you might think, and hopefully from the point I brought up in the first quote, you see it from my point of view a little better.
1) Ok
2) Well let's take a look at the scan, ok ?
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^^ if it was the case as you said then why Susanoo's hand fingers are bend in that scan above ?
If it was just hanging or sticking to arm of Susanoo the Ok, I would I agree, however bend fingers of Susanoo imply/hints it was grab which required for Susanoo to wield it, so that alone point suggest that Either Susanoo arm or Chakra arm can grab it as well.
It makes sense that Itachi's Susano'o can hold it. It is his shield after all he is the one wielding it.
> The problem here is you're confusing touching with grabbing.
at·tack
əˈtak/Submit
verb
1.
take aggressive action against (a place or enemy forces) with weapons or armed force, typically in a battle or war.
noun
1.
an aggressive and violent action against a person or place.
Yata mirror is supposed to stop all attacks. Grabbing something from someone, and especially a shield from your enemy is most definitely an aggressive action. Therefore Yata does not allow it.
grab
ɡrab/
verb
gerund or present participle: grabbing
1.
grasp or seize suddenly and roughly.
@ bold part, sorry but I find it foolish to believe. why ?
Just take a look for automatic gun or not automatic gun. If you keep pressing then automatic gun keep shooting, while in not automatic gun'c ase if you keep pressing then it just shoot one time and you will need to release button, before again pressing to shoot again.
Based on that not complex mechanism. It is impossible to do both, as Itachi command and Yata Mirror's automtic defence would collide with each other, if Itachi sent signal to Yata to defend while Yata is already on it.
So either you believe Yata has it's own automatic defence system, then anything which doesn't hit it and doesn't not make blast which hit it's surface can simply move about it and attack Itachi directy if Itachi is unable to raise it in attack's direction in time.
If this is latter case then, there is alot of characters which exceed Itachi's reaction time so they would kill him before Itachi could know what hit him.
that is called logical deduction, but drawing is unclear, not my fault.
Also if Kishi really wanted to prove Yata is omnidirectional then he would draw explosion around Itachi hitting from all sides with curves of Yata expanding around Itachi and with BZ's commenting on it, make it not debatable.
However this way it was done , we can only use logical deduction which in Kishi's universe can be not best thing, if author hasn't keep all rules without change.
3) Good point but, logical deduction does in fact make sense in this case though. U_U
That is correct, but it still doesn't prove that shield can be omni-directional. There is not specification how much shield can change it's form and what extent or range of it is.
" A spirit weapon without a physical form with the power to change every one of it's properties, allowing it to alter it's attributes in accordance of the attributes of the attack, rendering it ineffective."
> Fancy way of saying it can change as much as it needs to make an attack ineffective. Nothing is outside the realm of possibility.
. I am sure they aren't physcial because if they were how could they grab soul ?