Did Sasuke and Madara Cheat When They Used the Tailed Beasts Against Naruto and Hashirama?
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Looks like I may be wrong again. It says summon, not control.
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Other Uchiha may have been able to control Kurama but didn't have enough chakra to summon it.
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Sasuke knew Kurama met Uchiha before, but he didn't know about Madara.
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(Can't post the full page since the file size is too big).
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The contradiction was that you used an example where we had some evidence to say there isn't more - we can't claim more - with the known benefits of six paths energy creating rinnegan . . .
. . . Yet for the other part you pushed for the idea of other Uchiha having controlled Kurama in the past based on there not being a confirmed denial of it in the story
So its a double standard, quite literally. And not only, but practically opposite standards at that. Its an issue because we are not evaluating different things which appeal to different values (for example, the value of a computer is in what it directly can and cannot do while the value of a person is inherent to them as a living being and their work/contributions simply add on to that base, so you cannot/should not judge them based on the same thing. Again, the strength of a fish is in swimming while that of a bird is in flying, so you cannot judge them based on how well they perform the same activity because they were meant for different activities.) but rather evidence/clues from the same story or overall case (more specifically, the logic used to determine probability) so we must use the same standard for all. Tis not about the type of evidence (such as actions vs statements) but rather the foundational logic used to evaluate any evidence at all. Pointed out the last part because technically no two things are exactly the same so it is possible to get caught up on that and push to use double standards where they are not properly fitting. Things should be judged by the same standard when what is sought out from them is the same thing and said thing is not inherently discriminatory to either. For example, Usain Bolt being tall should not be used to count against his victories because the mission is to see which individual can cover distance in the shortest time, not the specific reasons why they can do so faster than others.
As for the opposition, again, the first part uses a lack of evidence while the second part uses a lack of counter-evidence. The first part uses this lack to claim a limit of possibility while the second uses this lack to claim that possibility is not limited.
Aye
It has to somehow be, otherwise there would be nothing present to activate when combined with the other brother. The fact that rinnegan is only created from incarnates (Obito did not get it) necessitates that incarnates possess an active trigger and since energy is literally energy, it cannot possibly not have a special effect based on its presence alone.
Dojutsu are limited by their users. They are abilities with levels, not ultimate, universally limitless special effects.
On the other hand, Kurama recognizing Madara from 3T Sasuke tells us it can be sensed.
This is foundationally, existentially contradictory. Mere presence necessitates effect. Nothing exists in a true vacuum, which is needed to be present yet not have effect. Simple material interactions prove this.
It also goes against your dojutsu point, as it being there while not being detected proves dojutsu are not perfect and therefore cannot be used as ultimate proof of a lack of presence.
A ghost is a thing . . .
Even if we do not take Naruto literally, he is clearly expressing a feeling of recognition, which means that the energy of his ancestor was present and with effect (feeling = interaction = effect) throughout his life.
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If I may . . .
Should summoning - a single act enforced by universally binding pre-agreement that the summoned is literally incapable of opposeing (and due to existential laws that are not based on the power of the summoner) - not be much easier than controlling - a continuous act (based on Sharingan illusion) that relies on a power and skill difference between the caster and the victim/target?
Kurama hints at this with his recognition of Sharingan and Sasuke speaks as though he is directly picking up from what kurama says as his sentence begins with "seems . . . ".
That word also implies Sasuke is not sure, so it cannot be said that he "knew".
Besides those, Oroc could have been the one to tell Sasuke legends.
Besides all those, Madara alone easily satisfies the Uchiha part. Sasuke only says its not his first time, not that it happened many times. It could literally be his second time. Obito is practically Madara not only in method used but due to zetsu energy powers.
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Also . . .
The scan you posted to Angel has Jiraiya giving Kurama the same appearance legend as Rinnegan - almost exactly the same. This makes it more likely that only incarnates have ever controlled Kurama/tailed beasts in my opinion.
It is also interesting that their legend is given through the exact same character in Jiraiya. On top of this, said character is later acknowledged by a Rinnegan using Kurama controller in Obito.
(Since the beasts are thoroughly confirmed as practically normal in terms of their presence and not these special effects of sudden occurence that Jiraiya speaks of - being either present in the wild or in beast hosts, it seems logical that by appearance he means in combat, when summoned by a controller as with Madara against Hashirama. Jiraiya himself said this knowing about Kushina and Madara so it is highly unlikely he means presence literally. And to note, Obito attacked pretty close to the Uchiha massacre which was the result of internal village corruption with Danzo and co, so it all adds up.)
And to add on to the control vs summon point, we have Naruto and Bunta. Naruto could summon Bunta yet very clearly could not control him and were it Sasuke, very clearly could not put him under the most basic illusion, nevermind a controlling illusion. So it seems control is much harder than summoning.
Summoning is also not necessarily a direct statement of power even in activation because we saw through Sakon and Ukon that energy can be combined to achieve a great summon. So it makes very easy sense to me that Uchiha could have combined their power to summon a tailed beast - which would be harder to do with controlling one because illusions can cancel each other out and are very delicate to maintain and are not ever know to stack on top of each other to increase effect such as how multiple Water Dragons can combine into a bigger one. Not only would each illusion cast be individual, but we know from Danzo vs Sasuke that a certain level of power is required to even begin one on a target.
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The energy was dormant until triggered by the presence of the other.
Chakra sight is a standard ability. Indra and Ashura's chakra transmigrated, therefore if active it would he seen. Neji couldn't see Kurama's til it was used.
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Kurama thought Tobi was Madara.
That's not boosting chakra. Even if it was, it had to be very minimal otherwise they would be a lot stronger than everyone a lot sooner.
Sure, it's a public comment.
Depends on the user & target. The user may have the power & skill to control but not the chakra to summon. In Kurama's case all is needed. Given he's not going to work with the user if summoned. No pact was signed.
Sasuke was unsure of Kurama's identity, but from Kurama's statement he assumed he's the Kyuubi. Which Sasuke knew Uchiha (at least one) came in contact with.
Although if other Uchiha tried controlling Kurama this is important enough to be mentioned. Since it wasn't it probably didn't happen. So knowledge of the power it takes to control it must have been passed on from Hashirama rather than Uchiha attempting & failing.
Good point.
There's no correlation. Obito wasn't Indra's reincarnate & Zetsu wasn't Ashura's. He was made from Hashirama's cells but after his death, Ashura's chakra only appeared in Naruto.
They could summon together but Kurama would attack them afterward if not controlled. We know Madara & Obito did both. Interestingly enough, whereas Jiraiya only mentioned summoning, the elders focused on control.
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Since they believed Uchiha were behind the attack they must have believed they combined their chakra to summon it. Meaning the only discrepancy was controlling so it wouldn't harm them. Whereas Jiraiya didn't believe the clan was behind the attack so it was either a natural occurrence or an individual summoned it. Particularly a rogue Uchiha with a grudge against clan & village.
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Hence the combination point.
It should also be worth noting that that Naruto needed "more than enough" due to his poor energy control. Trained, elite Uchiha should not be as burdened as he was.
This goes against the general nature of energy - being active, hence the word 'energetic' being associated with active people. Is there even a known case of energy being present yet inactive or inconsequential in all of studied reality?
This also goes against the effect-by-presence-alone point I already made. I am answering as I read so I am not sure if you countered said point later in the post I am replying to.
This also seems self-contradictory, as triggering something is an act/effect that requires an active agent.
The point is that said abilities are applied at different levels. Two people can run, but only one is Usain Bolt. So those who did not sense the ancestry may simply have been weaker sensors than those who could. In this case, Kurama being a multi-millenia old literal energy being vs Neji being a 13yr old completes the point.
In addition to levels, there are also different types/subcategories of any ability. Superman is durable against missiles but falls to a single stone of kryptonite - same kryptonite that Batman probably uses as bath salts. In our case, it can also be that Kurama, as an energy being, is better able to sense hidden energies than the Byakugan, which sees through things but has been shown to be blockable (Boruto, vs Isshiki).
I trust the above covers various possibilities for Indra and Ashura.
It seems Neji did not see Kurama at all. The page you showed shpws him seeing the energy of Kurama, not the beast himself. Since Kurama was literally sealed within Naruto, perhaps seals can block Byakugan? That makes sense becuase this specific seal was so high-level that only the Sannin and Hiruzen could manipulate it in Konoha - same Konoha that still had Danzo, Anbu, Kurenai and generational genius Kakashi.
Again, there are levels to abilities, they are not absolute powers. Kurama could be tricked.
In this case, said Tobi was trained by Madara himself and had the notoriously tricky Zetsu for a body. Remember Zetsu can copy all details bar emotions from a single touch.
It can also be released gradually over time, this power boost.
Besides that, Naruto was actually very impressive. He was held back by his own personality - not a nerd - and then Orochimaru messed with his seal. Same Oroc who though a 15yr old Naruto could quickly threaten Akatsuki with backup from Sakura, sai and Yamato. His ability to master Shadow Clones from a single read of the scroll and keep up with generational genius Sasuke in tree climbing shows strong ability.
Aye
It seems easier to summon than control based on the fact that control requires a relative input of energy (for Sharingan-based control, at least) into the mind of the target but summoning provably requires far less power than the level of the target. In the case of Kurama, this is increased because he is a literal energy being with continuously active energy that will automatically push out the energy of his opponent in his brain. Danzo considering Sasuke special for even being able to begin an illusion against him - same Sasuke who could summon Manda and friends - backs up the idea of control being harder than summoning.
Wait, has summoning ever been done before a pact was signed?
Agreed.
As for knowledge, it can also be logically deduced based on how summoning/control works and the type of being Kurama is - a giant energy beast
Zetsu being able to change his energy fingerprint should cover Obito.
Hashirama not only passed down his energy but his very life force through his cells. Danzo vs Sasuke covers this.
We see Madara first approach Kurama in the wild before being able to summon him. Obito could have simply had Madara pass on his seal/oath of summoning.
Is there any known case of a summon occuring before a contract is signed? Obito was far too confident of being able to summon Kurama specifically for it to have been random betting.
The page says The incident was Uchiha, nothing about control. Summoning contracts take care of the control part on their own, remember?
Obito was also not being completely honest there . . .
Obito vs Minato puts down the control issue imo.
The summoning laws take care of control on their own. Since Obito summoned Kurama without first controlling him, it seems the pact can be inherited.
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Back to the main point.
That geos against Hagoromo & Ashura's ideology.
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What they want vs what it is.
Such ideology is expressed to change the situation, so those scans imply that on its own, chakra boosts the individual.
Disagreement on that implies disagreement on foundational concepts, which limits how far we can go in terms of meeting each other at this level. Either, tis been worthwhile. Thanks
Sageof7Path
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Madara yes, Sasuke no, when Sasuke put all the tailed beast under his control it was very impressive. Madara is nothing but hacks and ass pulls.