Denying a Prime Hiruzens stength

[jgtplayer]

Prime Hiruzen has no feats. All we know that he couldn't use his strongest technique, the Reaper Death Seal. Which makes him basically weaker then the old Hiruzen.

prime Hiruzen was said to be the strongest kage of his time out of the Kazekage the Mizukage the Raikage and Tsuchikage so how are you going to say he didn't have a stronger technique then the reaper death seal which he only used because he was fighting edos.

 

[htmwall]

did hiruzen ever had a prime?

 

[MickNerks]

His age doesn't prevent him from using jutsu unless it was draining enough to be impractical at his old age when he had low reserves. However, now that he's an edo, stamina isn't a problem. Yet, we're not seeing any new, significant jutsus coming from him. So the jutsu we're seeing are the same we've seen in Hiruzen's prime.

Unless his frail old body with low reserves prevented him from using modes that enhanced him in his prime like Sage Mode and 8 gates, this is the full extent of his abilities. If he had Sage Mode, he'd still be weaker than Hashirama since Hashirama has it as well along with OP wood jutsu. I'm not quite convinced that 8 gates makes someone stronger than Hashirama since it took Hidora to take out Madara's complete susanoo.

Either way, Hiruzen being the strongest hokage was retconned. Especially after this scan.

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Hiruzen has only used 2 jutsu's since he was resurrected. The barrier and his Shadow Shuriken, there many more we have never seen.

And Hiruzen's hype was never retconned. The only person to retcon his hype was the Hashirama fanboys.

Kishi hasn't placed anything in the manga that retconned hiruzen's hype. Kabuto says that there weren't ninja alive today that were on the same level as hashirama, yet hiruzen was dead so that didn't challenge his hype of being stronger in his prime.

Only fanboys state that Hiruzen's hype is retconned because they haven't seen anything new from him or seen his prime. If kishi was on this base he would laugh at them all for thinking they write the manga.

 

[Totsuka gg Amaterasu gg]

did hiruzen ever had a prime?

have you read part1?

 

[Sageof7Path]

You know what your problem is ? you're so hung up on the hiruzen vs oro fight that you're ignoring the facts
1. Just as hiruzen wasnt at his "prime" at 69 the edo's oro summoned were lesser than what they are now and for your information they aren't as strong as they should be still.
2. The only reason they were caught is because OROCHIMARU chose to sacrifice them to find out what the jutsu hiruzen was using could do,while being laid back doing nothing and not to forget that hiruzen was hit by B.O.D meaning he was limited to what he could do,had he been attacked from a long range he would have been killed easily.
3. Orochimaru had full control of their moves and they couldnt think for themselves
4. Hashirama right now is like the 3rd strongest
5. Hiruzen prob wont be able to beat minato prime or not

some are just me saying but these are facts if hiruzen gets more feats to prove that he was strong then ye ill acknowledge it then but at the moment he has nothing on hashi,tobirama,minato

If I'm hung up over the fight then how am I ignoring the same fight (Sarutobi vs The senju's) that I'm obsessed with?
1)I never said that they where in their prime. I said Hiruzen was around 70 Hashi and Tobirama where bought back with less chackra thus not at prime. I said the hokage confirmed that where as strong and as fast as they where before indicating that this lack of chackara did not make a deference when it came to their speed or their power.

2)Orochimaru never chose to sacrifice the hokage's to test a Jutsu. This is something you made up in desperation to try and un validate Hiruzens victory. Hiruzen was trapped in the darkness jutsu while being hit by strikes from the hokage's. Hiruzen had to make shadow clones and find the hokage's in the darkness. When Hiruzen captured the hokage's orochimaru said "the darkness has vanished, what is this jutsu?" indicating that he was never going to give the hokage's up to Hiruzen. As a matter a fact the hokage's kept attacking Hiruzen while Orochimaru kept taunting him about the jutsu.

3. Oh please orochimaru didn't have full control over what they did. Did you remember the expression orochimaru gave when the second hokage used his water wall? He didn't have control over either one. Do you honestly believe that Orochimaru could have made the 1st hokage use his hidden jutsu duplicating the hand signs in his mind and making him distribute the same amount of chackara at the same time. They where fighting under orochimaru's control but their movements and jutsu where automatic.

The last two statements where as irrelevant and un true as the first three sense you didn't make up anything up to back the last three up I really don't care.

I think what you need to come to terms with is the fact that Prime Hiruzen was definetly stronger than was was shown in his battle with Orochimaru. So strong he defeated two hokages. You called me obsessed with that fight yet your whole statement was about that fight. I sated facts in this post and previous posts so far you have stated none you've made up things and they where absolutely pitiful. Good bye.

Oh yeah and what do you have to indicate that a prime Hiruzen can't beat hashi and tobi? They've actually fought you know and non prime Hiruzen won. A prime Hiruzen is better than Hashirama.

 

[MickNerks]

If I'm hung up over the fight then how am I ignoring the same fight (Sarutobi vs The senju's) that I'm obsessed with?
1)I never said that they where in their prime. I said Hiruzen was around 70 Hashi and Tobirama where bought back with less chackra thus not at prime. I said the hokage confirmed that where as strong and as fast as they where before indicating that this lack of chackara did not make a deference when it came to their speed or their power.

2)Orochimaru never chose to sacrifice the hokage's to test a Jutsu. This is something you made up in desperation to try and un validate Hiruzens victory. Hiruzen was trapped in the darkness jutsu while being hit by strikes from the hokage's. Hiruzen had to make shadow clones and find the hokage's in the darkness. When Hiruzen captured the hokage's orochimaru said "the darkness has vanished, what is this jutsu?" indicating that he was never going to give the hokage's up to Hiruzen. As a matter a fact the hokage's kept attacking Hiruzen while Orochimaru kept taunting him about the jutsu.

3. Oh please orochimaru didn't have full control over what they did. Did you remember the expression orochimaru gave when the second hokage used his water wall? He didn't have control over either one. Do you honestly believe that Orochimaru could have made the 1st hokage use his hidden jutsu duplicating the hand signs in his mind and making him distribute the same amount of chackara at the same time. They where fighting under orochimaru's control but their movements and jutsu where automatic.

The last two statements where as irrelevant and un true as the first three sense you didn't make up anything up to back the last three up I really don't care.

I think what you need to come to terms with is the fact that Prime Hiruzen was definetly stronger than was was shown in his battle with Orochimaru. So strong he defeated two hokages. You called me obsessed with that fight yet your whole statement was about that fight. I sated facts in this post and previous posts so far you have stated none you've made up things and they where absolutely pitiful. Good bye.

Oh yeah and what do you have to indicate that a prime Hiruzen can't beat hashi and tobi? They've actually fought you know and non prime Hiruzen won. A prime Hiruzen is better than Hashirama.

^^^
This guy right here knows what he is talking about

 

[~Naruto&Itachi~]

Hiruzen got crushed by Obito instantly. /thread

By your logic Hashi and tobi are fodders aswell

 

[startup97]

Whats the point

The point is to make the haters mad!

 

[LegendaryAce]

If I'm hung up over the fight then how am I ignoring the same fight (Sarutobi vs The senju's) that I'm obsessed with?
1)I never said that they where in their prime. I said Hiruzen was around 70 Hashi and Tobirama where bought back with less chackra thus not at prime. I said the hokage confirmed that where as strong and as fast as they where before indicating that this lack of chackara did not make a deference when it came to their speed or their power.

2)Orochimaru never chose to sacrifice the hokage's to test a Jutsu. This is something you made up in desperation to try and un validate Hiruzens victory. Hiruzen was trapped in the darkness jutsu while being hit by strikes from the hokage's. Hiruzen had to make shadow clones and find the hokage's in the darkness. When Hiruzen captured the hokage's orochimaru said "the darkness has vanished, what is this jutsu?" indicating that he was never going to give the hokage's up to Hiruzen. As a matter a fact the hokage's kept attacking Hiruzen while Orochimaru kept taunting him about the jutsu.

3. Oh please orochimaru didn't have full control over what they did. Did you remember the expression orochimaru gave when the second hokage used his water wall? He didn't have control over either one. Do you honestly believe that Orochimaru could have made the 1st hokage use his hidden jutsu duplicating the hand signs in his mind and making him distribute the same amount of chackara at the same time. They where fighting under orochimaru's control but their movements and jutsu where automatic.

The last two statements where as irrelevant and un true as the first three sense you didn't make up anything up to back the last three up I really don't care.

I think what you need to come to terms with is the fact that Prime Hiruzen was definetly stronger than was was shown in his battle with Orochimaru. So strong he defeated two hokages. You called me obsessed with that fight yet your whole statement was about that fight. I sated facts in this post and previous posts so far you have stated none you've made up things and they where absolutely pitiful. Good bye.

Oh yeah and what do you have to indicate that a prime Hiruzen can't beat hashi and tobi? They've actually fought you know and non prime Hiruzen won. A prime Hiruzen is better than Hashirama.

i don't have time to look for the scans since its quite late for ill try sum up everything i think and believe in this post.

Go back and watch/read the manga from when hiruzen is casting the RDS orochimaru is a jutsu freak so he would have wanted to see a jutsu that he has never seen before and you would be crazy to think that he will let hiruzen use it on him(while he has 2 robots to take the damage if its a dangerous jutsu) if you notice he says something like show it to me and then the edos attack with taijutsu thats enough to say that he really wanted to see what it could do and was pushing hiruzen around to make him use it and of course he didnt expect that the jutsu would seal his edos thats why he panicked and ended up getting serious at the last minute.

The fight
To be honest that fight was just orochimaru having fun and everyone should know by now that orochimaru was never serious until the end were he knew that RDS was dangerous and thats when he had the intent to kill, all the way through that fight orochimaru was so laidback and was teasing and pushing around an old tired hiruzen (orochimaru has that type of personality) while not having any intent of killing him he summoned hiruzen's teachers to try emotionally cripple him since hokages and ect are so big on family,friends and stuff it would be hard for hiruzen to fight against his previous teachers...So whats my point? orochimaru could have killed hiruzen anytime he wanted but thats not what he was going for he was just tormenting him and playing around with him.

Hiruzen beat the controlled hashirama and tobirama while they were heavily restricted and kabuto says the tags orochimaru were using assume full control of his edos and dont forget orochimaru studied alot about hashirama why wouldnt he know some of his moves, he might not have known them all but he knew abit of them.

also orochimaru half succeeded in making hiruzen give up and lose hope and be all weak until enma helped snap him back to his senses.

BOD you know what it does and orochimaru knew also what it does why would he let them use taijutsu at that points? Earth,water,forest release and you choose to fight next to your opponent ? how does that make any sense what so ever? if he had told them to move back and kill him with long or medium range attacks hiruzen would have been a goner and had no idea where the attacks would come from but that wasnt the case it was orochimaru's big headedness and curiosity that ended up getting tobirama and hashirama sealed and thats when he got serious and tried killing hiruzen knowing that he made a mistake of letting him live that long.

also my last 2 statements you can ignore as they differ depending to who they apply to.

but ill just tell you this hashirama beats hiruzen in hype and in feats

Hiruzen:
sealed controlled hashirama and tobirama
fought Orochimaru with two edos (an impressive feat)
longest reigning hokage
god of shinobi
strongest kage of his time
knows over 1thousand jutsu
pushed kurama out of the village
strongest hokage - (which i believe is biased to the time hiruzen lived- ill explain hashirama's strength was said to be a fairytale in other words strength that when heard about its not believable and many people from the time hiruzen was on his prime wouldnt have known about hashirama's strength only the things they hear from stories,rumors,news or wherever they heard it from but many people who were alive and old at the time naruto and his generation would probably still know of hiruzen's strength. if we took a person sage of six paths and them another person obito (think of it as he has the full juubi) and obito destroys and kills alot of people and he is defeated by naruto (main character) then people who were at the war and survived would know what the power of the sage is capable of and would find it easier to believe wouldnt they? after many many years when people hear the stories of obito they would probably pass it as a fairytale (assuming there isnt someone as strong as obito at that time already - lets say how naruto was before the war) they would find the stories hard to believe and probably pass it thats the same case i think would apply here why? because not many people witnessed hashirama's strength so that title is biased) <- can ignore it if you would like

thats all i can think about from him to be honest

Hashiramahe has alot of hype that hiruzen has)
Beat madara and kurama
had several tailed beasts at his control
god of shinobi
knows over 1k jutsu ( he was leader of the senju at some point and the senju are known as the clan of a thousand jutsu ect so its not that hard to believe he knew alot of them and he is the one who had the scroll naruto stole in the beginning - its safe to assume that the scrolls in the hokage office are filled with jutsu passed down by previous hokages(and other people)
strongest shinobi at his time)
Strength that is like a fairytale ( and madara believed 5kages combined weren't as strong as hashirama)

to be honest that should be enough to top hiruzens

a few more things hiruzen also has little to no feats and a little hype which he yet hasnt really proved so thats why i am leaning towards hashirama being stronger and a better hokage (for various reasons) ILL CHANGE MY VIEW WHEN HIRUZEN /KISHI shows me this prime of his

btw we also havent really seen how strong hashirama's prime was aswell we've only seen some of what he could do there could be alot more lets wait for the manga to show us both hiruzen and hashirama then we can finally say - dont get me wrong i love hiruzen but putting him as the strongest hokage or shinobi currently is really not a good idea since he has no feats to back any of it up we can never know until something is shown to prove it and hashirama has proved his monsterlike strength a few times ( i also believe his current edo is not as strong as he was alive(prime)?)

 

[startup97]

i don't have time to look for the scans since its quite late for ill try sum up everything i think and believe in this post.

Go back and watch/read the manga from when hiruzen is casting the RDS orochimaru is a jutsu freak so he would have wanted to see a jutsu that he has never seen before and you would be crazy to think that he will let hiruzen use it on him(while he has 2 robots to take the damage if its a dangerous jutsu) if you notice he says something like show it to me and then the edos attack with taijutsu thats enough to say that he really wanted to see what it could do and was pushing hiruzen around to make him use it and of course he didnt expect that the jutsu would seal his edos thats why he panicked and ended up getting serious at the last minute.

The fight
To be honest that fight was just orochimaru having fun and everyone should know by now that orochimaru was never serious until the end were he knew that RDS was dangerous and thats when he had the intent to kill, all the way through that fight orochimaru was so laidback and was teasing and pushing around an old tired hiruzen (orochimaru has that type of personality) while not having any intent of killing him he summoned hiruzen's teachers to try emotionally cripple him since hokages and ect are so big on family,friends and stuff it would be hard for hiruzen to fight against his previous teachers...So whats my point? orochimaru could have killed hiruzen anytime he wanted but thats not what he was going for he was just tormenting him and playing around with him.

Hiruzen beat the controlled hashirama and tobirama while they were heavily restricted and kabuto says the tags orochimaru were using assume full control of his edos and dont forget orochimaru studied alot about hashirama why wouldnt he know some of his moves, he might not have known them all but he knew abit of them.

also orochimaru half succeeded in making hiruzen give up and lose hope and be all weak until enma helped snap him back to his senses.

BOD you know what it does and orochimaru knew also what it does why would he let them use taijutsu at that points? Earth,water,forest release and you choose to fight next to your opponent ? how does that make any sense what so ever? if he had told them to move back and kill him with long or medium range attacks hiruzen would have been a goner and had no idea where the attacks would come from but that wasnt the case it was orochimaru's big headedness and curiosity that ended up getting tobirama and hashirama sealed and thats when he got serious and tried killing hiruzen knowing that he made a mistake of letting him live that long.

also my last 2 statements you can ignore as they differ depending to who they apply to.

but ill just tell you this hashirama beats hiruzen in hype and in feats

Hiruzen:
sealed controlled hashirama and tobirama
fought Orochimaru with two edos (an impressive feat)
longest reigning hokage
god of shinobi
strongest kage of his time
knows over 1thousand jutsu
pushed kurama out of the village
strongest hokage - (which i believe is biased to the time hiruzen lived- ill explain hashirama's strength was said to be a fairytale in other words strength that when heard about its not believable and many people from the time hiruzen was on his prime wouldnt have known about hashirama's strength only the things they hear from stories,rumors,news or wherever they heard it from but many people who were alive and old at the time naruto and his generation would probably still know of hiruzen's strength. if we took a person sage of six paths and them another person obito (think of it as he has the full juubi) and obito destroys and kills alot of people and he is defeated by naruto (main character) then people who were at the war and survived would know what the power of the sage is capable of and would find it easier to believe wouldnt they? after many many years when people hear the stories of obito they would probably pass it as a fairytale (assuming there isnt someone as strong as obito at that time already - lets say how naruto was before the war) they would find the stories hard to believe and probably pass it thats the same case i think would apply here why? because not many people witnessed hashirama's strength so that title is biased) <- can ignore it if you would like

thats all i can think about from him to be honest

Hashiramahe has alot of hype that hiruzen has)
Beat madara and kurama
had several tailed beasts at his control
god of shinobi
knows over 1k jutsu ( he was leader of the senju at some point and the senju are known as the clan of a thousand jutsu ect so its not that hard to believe he knew alot of them and he is the one who had the scroll naruto stole in the beginning - its safe to assume that the scrolls in the hokage office are filled with jutsu passed down by previous hokages(and other people)
strongest shinobi at his time)
Strength that is like a fairytale ( and madara believed 5kages combined weren't as strong as hashirama)

to be honest that should be enough to top hiruzens

a few more things hiruzen also has little to no feats and a little hype which he yet hasnt really proved so thats why i am leaning towards hashirama being stronger and a better hokage (for various reasons) ILL CHANGE MY VIEW WHEN HIRUZEN /KISHI shows me this prime of his

btw we also havent really seen how strong hashirama's prime was aswell we've only seen some of what he could do there could be alot more lets wait for the manga to show us both hiruzen and hashirama then we can finally say - dont get me wrong i love hiruzen but putting him as the strongest hokage or shinobi currently is really not a good idea since he has no feats to back any of it up we can never know until something is shown to prove it and hashirama has proved his monsterlike strength a few times ( i also believe his current edo is not as strong as he was alive(prime)?)

In all honesty I believe this old age Hiruzen stuff is just rectonned. There was no mention of it by Hiruzen or by anyone else. The edo hiruzen we see now is meant to be Prime Hiruzen since this is Kishi last and only time to showcase Hiruzen. We can all assume that this is his prime right now. But don't underestimate him. Both Lord First and Second trusted him enough to make him Hokage.

 

[LegendaryAce]

In all honesty I believe this old age Hiruzen stuff is just rectonned. There was no mention of it by Hiruzen or by anyone else. The edo hiruzen we see now is meant to be Prime Hiruzen since this is Kishi last and only time to showcase Hiruzen. We can all assume that this is his prime right now.

Saw someone else say Edo is not prime but yes i do believe this is the last chance for hiruzen to show what he is capable of

we cant really use prime hiruzen vs any character unless they arent far off old hiruzen because it currently doesnt exist there is no where to actually know how strong he was we just know he is stronger than part 1 orochimaru but we dont know what level he was in terms of overall strength for all we know he might be on km naruto or so

 

[Sennin of Logic]

Hiruzen has only used 2 jutsu's since he was resurrected. The barrier and his Shadow Shuriken, there many more we have never seen.

And Hiruzen's hype was never retconned. The only person to retcon his hype was the Hashirama fanboys.

Kishi hasn't placed anything in the manga that retconned hiruzen's hype. Kabuto says that there weren't ninja alive today that were on the same level as hashirama, yet hiruzen was dead so that didn't challenge his hype of being stronger in his prime.

Only fanboys state that Hiruzen's hype is retconned because they haven't seen anything new from him or seen his prime. If kishi was on this base he would laugh at them all for thinking they write the manga.

You do realize that none of the hokages are my favorites right? I have no favorites amoung them to be biased about. This is my honest opinion given what I've observed.

Are you suggesting that Hiruzen is holding back against the strongest villain the world has ever known?! He clearly chose a jutsu that was one of his best. There's no point in using a weaker one.

 

[General Lex]

You do realize that none of the hokages are my favorites right? I have no favorites amoung them to be biased about. This is my honest opinion given what I've observed.

Are you suggesting that Hiruzen is holding back against the strongest villain the world has ever known?! He clearly chose a jutsu that was one of his best. There's no point in using a weaker one.

I highly doubt that was his strongest attack. Remember they were trying to exploit weaknesses in their opponent. The jutsu he used was probably to see how Obito would counter.

 

[Sageof7Path]

i don't have time to look for the scans since its quite late for ill try sum up everything i think and believe in this post.

Go back and watch/read the manga from when hiruzen is casting the RDS orochimaru is a jutsu freak so he would have wanted to see a jutsu that he has never seen before and you would be crazy to think that he will let hiruzen use it on him(while he has 2 robots to take the damage if its a dangerous jutsu) if you notice he says something like show it to me and then the edos attack with taijutsu thats enough to say that he really wanted to see what it could do and was pushing hiruzen around to make him use it and of course he didnt expect that the jutsu would seal his edos thats why he panicked and ended up getting serious at the last minute.

The fight
To be honest that fight was just orochimaru having fun and everyone should know by now that orochimaru was never serious until the end were he knew that RDS was dangerous and thats when he had the intent to kill, all the way through that fight orochimaru was so laidback and was teasing and pushing around an old tired hiruzen (orochimaru has that type of personality) while not having any intent of killing him he summoned hiruzen's teachers to try emotionally cripple him since hokages and ect are so big on family,friends and stuff it would be hard for hiruzen to fight against his previous teachers...So whats my point? orochimaru could have killed hiruzen anytime he wanted but thats not what he was going for he was just tormenting him and playing around with him.

Hiruzen beat the controlled hashirama and tobirama while they were heavily restricted and kabuto says the tags orochimaru were using assume full control of his edos and dont forget orochimaru studied alot about hashirama why wouldnt he know some of his moves, he might not have known them all but he knew abit of them.

also orochimaru half succeeded in making hiruzen give up and lose hope and be all weak until enma helped snap him back to his senses.

BOD you know what it does and orochimaru knew also what it does why would he let them use taijutsu at that points? Earth,water,forest release and you choose to fight next to your opponent ? how does that make any sense what so ever? if he had told them to move back and kill him with long or medium range attacks hiruzen would have been a goner and had no idea where the attacks would come from but that wasnt the case it was orochimaru's big headedness and curiosity that ended up getting tobirama and hashirama sealed and thats when he got serious and tried killing hiruzen knowing that he made a mistake of letting him live that long.

also my last 2 statements you can ignore as they differ depending to who they apply to.

but ill just tell you this hashirama beats hiruzen in hype and in feats

Hiruzen:
sealed controlled hashirama and tobirama
fought Orochimaru with two edos (an impressive feat)
longest reigning hokage
god of shinobi
strongest kage of his time
knows over 1thousand jutsu
pushed kurama out of the village
strongest hokage - (which i believe is biased to the time hiruzen lived- ill explain hashirama's strength was said to be a fairytale in other words strength that when heard about its not believable and many people from the time hiruzen was on his prime wouldnt have known about hashirama's strength only the things they hear from stories,rumors,news or wherever they heard it from but many people who were alive and old at the time naruto and his generation would probably still know of hiruzen's strength. if we took a person sage of six paths and them another person obito (think of it as he has the full juubi) and obito destroys and kills alot of people and he is defeated by naruto (main character) then people who were at the war and survived would know what the power of the sage is capable of and would find it easier to believe wouldnt they? after many many years when people hear the stories of obito they would probably pass it as a fairytale (assuming there isnt someone as strong as obito at that time already - lets say how naruto was before the war) they would find the stories hard to believe and probably pass it thats the same case i think would apply here why? because not many people witnessed hashirama's strength so that title is biased) <- can ignore it if you would like

thats all i can think about from him to be honest

Hashiramahe has alot of hype that hiruzen has)
Beat madara and kurama
had several tailed beasts at his control
god of shinobi
knows over 1k jutsu ( he was leader of the senju at some point and the senju are known as the clan of a thousand jutsu ect so its not that hard to believe he knew alot of them and he is the one who had the scroll naruto stole in the beginning - its safe to assume that the scrolls in the hokage office are filled with jutsu passed down by previous hokages(and other people)
strongest shinobi at his time)
Strength that is like a fairytale ( and madara believed 5kages combined weren't as strong as hashirama)

to be honest that should be enough to top hiruzens

a few more things hiruzen also has little to no feats and a little hype which he yet hasnt really proved so thats why i am leaning towards hashirama being stronger and a better hokage (for various reasons) ILL CHANGE MY VIEW WHEN HIRUZEN /KISHI shows me this prime of his

btw we also havent really seen how strong hashirama's prime was aswell we've only seen some of what he could do there could be alot more lets wait for the manga to show us both hiruzen and hashirama then we can finally say - dont get me wrong i love hiruzen but putting him as the strongest hokage or shinobi currently is really not a good idea since he has no feats to back any of it up we can never know until something is shown to prove it and hashirama has proved his monsterlike strength a few times ( i also believe his current edo is not as strong as he was alive(prime)?)

There you go again making things up. It's very sad that you can't go by facts but you seem to have a tendency to pull things out of your butt.

First off I wanna say you obviously read all my statements hence you saying " dont forget orochimaru studied alot about hashirama why wouldnt he know some of his moves, he might not have known them all but he knew abit of them." in reply to me saying:
Oh please orochimaru didn't have full control over what they did. Did you remember the expression orochimaru gave when the second hokage used his water wall? He didn't have control over either one. Do you honestly believe that Orochimaru could have made the 1st hokage use his hidden jutsu duplicating the hand signs in his mind and making him distribute the same amount of chackara at the same time. They where fighting under orochimaru's control but their movements and jutsu where automatic.
Lol you're funny for trying to pull that crap the only reason you pretend you didn't read is because you don't want to respond/can not figure out how to respond to have the things I said which brings me to my next point. You're making things up.
So you're saying Orochimaru allowed the third to use this Jutsu on the edo Hokages? Well that's purely speculation on your part you're not taking any evidence from the manga or anime to back up these claims. You're simply stating ideas you made up in your own mind based on Orochimaru's personality(Which to be quite honest I'm not even sure you believe yourself because they're absurd)
You say Hiruzen quit? Hmm I didn't recall. I decided to go on youtube and doing a little searching. The only signs of what seamed to be "quit" I could find where around 25 minutes 10 seconds of this video

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and to be quite honest it didn't seem like he had quit at all with the tears rushing down his face as he constantly repeated Orochimarus name looking at the face of his former student gone bad then THROWING Orochimaru off of him like he was nothing. Didn't seem like a guy who was beaten down or battered to me seemed like a guy who Kakashi described when he was fighting sasuke. When Kakashi described how the third must have felt when fighting Orochimaru. To be honest it didn't sound like the third even noticed what emma was saying because right after emna was finished speaking all he was clearly concerned with was his former student.

If it where the case that Hashirama and Tobirama where under full control again I would like you to explain Orochimarus expression when the second hokage used his water style jutsu in thin air and how could Orochimaru replicate Hashiramas fighting style?

 

[Percy Jackson]

Prime Hiruzen surly is the most powerful. It's funny people deny that a prime hiruzen was the strongest of the hokage's but the playing field was pretty much in the favor of the two reanimated kages. It was said that the two reanimated kage's where not at full chakara well... What about hiruzen at his age? He probably wasn't at top form either. Also people try to say that he wouldn't have caught the two kage's in the reaper death jutsu if they where at full power... Well Hiruzen sarutobi said himself when he was fighting Hashirama that he was just as strong and as fast as ever. Hiruzen would know this because he trained under and fought along side him and Tobirama. Stating that although they were not perfected zombies they where at top condition as far as speed and stamina. It's also said by many Hashirama tobirama madara fan boys that the hokage's barely used any jutsu while fighting sarutobi... Well neither did Hurizen. It was stated that he could barely make clones because of his age and chakara. So how do you know Hiruzen didn't have better Jutsu 20 years ago. Keep in mind 20 years ago he would have been 50.... Come to think of it the first hokage used a hidden jutsu deep forrest.... One of the jutsu's that gave Madara and the 9 tailed fox trouble but Hiruzen still beat it. It's also said that the power of hashirama is myth like... If that is so than he should have been able to beat an aged Hiruzen with only half of his strength.

Kabuto stated that madara got a portion of hashirama's power. Madara said that what he gain from him is a portion of his power.
Madara using Jukai Koutan >>>>>> hashirama's Jukai Koutan in part1.

 

[LegendaryAce]

There you go again making things up. It's very sad that you can't go by facts but you seem to have a tendency to pull things out of your butt.

First off I wanna say you obviously read all my statements hence you saying " dont forget orochimaru studied alot about hashirama why wouldnt he know some of his moves, he might not have known them all but he knew abit of them." in reply to me saying:
Oh please orochimaru didn't have full control over what they did. Did you remember the expression orochimaru gave when the second hokage used his water wall? He didn't have control over either one. Do you honestly believe that Orochimaru could have made the 1st hokage use his hidden jutsu duplicating the hand signs in his mind and making him distribute the same amount of chackara at the same time. They where fighting under orochimaru's control but their movements and jutsu where automatic.
Lol you're funny for trying to pull that crap the only reason you pretend you didn't read is because you don't want to respond/can not figure out how to respond to have the things I said which brings me to my next point. You're making things up.
So you're saying Orochimaru allowed the third to use this Jutsu on the edo Hokages? Well that's purely speculation on your part you're not taking any evidence from the manga or anime to back up these claims. You're simply stating ideas you made up in your own mind based on Orochimaru's personality(Which to be quite honest I'm not even sure you believe yourself because they're absurd)
You say Hiruzen quit? Hmm I didn't recall. I decided to go on youtube and doing a little searching. The only signs of what seamed to be "quit" I could find where around 25 minutes 10 seconds of this video

You must be registered for see links

and to be quite honest it didn't seem like he had quit at all with the tears rushing down his face as he constantly repeated Orochimarus name looking at the face of his former student gone bad then THROWING Orochimaru off of him like he was nothing. Didn't seem like a guy who was beaten down or battered to me seemed like a guy who Kakashi described when he was fighting sasuke. When Kakashi described how the third must have felt when fighting Orochimaru. To be honest it didn't sound like the third even noticed what emma was saying because right after emna was finished speaking all he was clearly concerned with was his former student.

If it where the case that Hashirama and Tobirama where under full control again I would like you to explain Orochimarus expression when the second hokage used his water style jutsu in thin air and how could Orochimaru replicate Hashiramas fighting style?

I have not made anything up

Tell me why they attacked him with taijitsu while he was blind
Tell me why Orochimaru said to show him the jutsu and then right after they attack with taijitsu
Tell me you don't believe the current hashirama and Tobirama would lose when they fought hiruzen
Tell me you don't think Orochimaru wasn't playing around and had intent to kill
I am pulling things out of my ass ? I am stating the obvious dude do you think Orochimaru would jump to hiruzen to have him get hit by a jutsu he doesn't know ? Why would he when he has Edos who can do that

Part 1 hashirama was weaker than yamato his scale of jutsu were weak


All the wood jutsu madara used were the scale hashirama could do and could be even better


And since you believe hashirama would lose tell me how please ?

Some things in the manga you have to use sense to get it ... Orochimaru was going so easy on hiruzen it was a joke as hiruzen was tired and best by a couple of weak attacks

And hiruzen crying and losing hope there is what Orochimaru was aiming at that's why he was laughing at him and playing with him and mocking him

Oh please tell me why he didnt just kill him then because we all know Orochimaru could have ended that fight before hiruzen cast rds

 

[MickNerks]

You do realize that none of the hokages are my favorites right? I have no favorites amoung them to be biased about. This is my honest opinion given what I've observed.

Are you suggesting that Hiruzen is holding back against the strongest villain the world has ever known?! He clearly chose a jutsu that was one of his best. There's no point in using a weaker one.

I never meant to call you a fanboy. I was just saying that I think hashirama fanboys are the ones who started the retconned nonsense.

And Hiruzen was testing obito's abilities. That's why he used the shuriken. He is said to have 1000+ more jutsu under his belt that we haven't seen.

 

[Sageof7Path]

I have not made anything up

Tell me why they attacked him with taijitsu while he was blind
Tell me why Orochimaru said to show him the jutsu and then right after they attack with taijitsu
Tell me you don't believe the current hashirama and Tobirama would lose when they fought hiruzen
Tell me you don't think Orochimaru wasn't playing around and had intent to kill
I am pulling things out of my ass ? I am stating the obvious dude do you think Orochimaru would jump to hiruzen to have him get hit by a jutsu he doesn't know ? Why would he when he has Edos who can do that

Part 1 hashirama was weaker than yamato his scale of jutsu were weak


All the wood jutsu madara used were the scale hashirama could do and could be even better


And since you believe hashirama would lose tell me how please ?

Some things in the manga you have to use sense to get it ... Orochimaru was going so easy on hiruzen it was a joke as hiruzen was tired and best by a couple of weak attacks

And hiruzen crying and losing hope there is what Orochimaru was aiming at that's why he was laughing at him and playing with him and mocking him

Oh please tell me why he didnt just kill him then because we all know Orochimaru could have ended that fight before hiruzen cast rds

Hashirama edo form weaker then yamato in part 1? tsk tsk tsk that's laughable. I doubt yamato could pull of the deep forrest jutsu

Oh did Orochimaru ask sarutobi to use the Jutsu hmmm and did he happen to repetedly attack Hiruzen with the Edo Hokages fallowing that statement. Come on now if he is going to let Hiruzen use his jutsu on the third and forth he would have gotten rid of the DARKNESS so he could attempt to SEE the Jutsu that Hiruzen was going to use and had the hokage stand still. So there goes you despite theory of "oh he just let the hokage put the Hashirama and Tobirama in his jutsu.

Again you wont give up with that silly argument about Hiruzen giving up. Anyone who wants to know I will provide with some evidence that that's not true because believe me this guy doesn't believe what he's saying he's extremely desperate and obviously biased to the point where he refuses to give Hiruzen credit.

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25:10

Stating the obvious? You've been making up stuff this entire time. I came at you with facts the whole time and all you've done was speculate the way Hiruzen was feeling or Orochimarus motives for doing something the entire time. You've contradicted your self so many times already and you know what's funny? The first thing you said when you got up here was "you know what you're problem is you're so hung up with the hiruzen vs oro fight that you ignore the facts" and here we have you saying nothing but OPINION AND SPECULATION about what? About the HIRUZEN ORO and kage's fight. And nothing else which brings me back to the MAIN point of this entire argument. People refusing to give PRIME Hiruzen any credit when it's their is no evidence supporting that anyone could have beaten Hiruzen in his prime yet their is mild evidence in this fight where Hiruzen sealed BOTH hokages at his age. The handicap was obviously in favor of the two hokage's it's just that you will not admit this no matter what! Why? I don't know you try to down play hiruzen by mentioning feats. You can't say a thing about Hiruzens feats in his prime can you? NOPE. You know why? Because you can't bring up any kind of facts. Keep in mind the things you seem to call common sense is desperation in an attempt to bury any kind of credibility the 3rd has for his prime. Yet you refuse to ignore the evidence in front of your face that tells you the 3rd was a tough opponent. You ask me the dumbest questions that I've explained in the previous posts then again in this one. It's screaming desperation. Let me know if there is anything else you want to know so I can repeat my self.

 

[LegendaryAce]

Hashirama edo form weaker then yamato in part 1? tsk tsk tsk that's laughable. I doubt yamato could pull of the deep forrest jutsu

Oh did Orochimaru ask sarutobi to use the Jutsu hmmm and did he happen to repetedly attack Hiruzen with the Edo Hokages fallowing that statement. Come on now if he is going to let Hiruzen use his jutsu on the third and forth he would have gotten rid of the DARKNESS so he could attempt to SEE the Jutsu that Hiruzen was going to use and had the hokage stand still. So there goes you despite theory of "oh he just let the hokage put the Hashirama and Tobirama in his jutsu.

Again you wont give up with that silly argument about Hiruzen giving up. Anyone who wants to know I will provide with some evidence that that's not true because believe me this guy doesn't believe what he's saying he's extremely desperate and obviously biased to the point where he refuses to give Hiruzen credit.

You must be registered for see links

25:10

Stating the obvious? You've been making up stuff this entire time. I came at you with facts the whole time and all you've done was speculate the way Hiruzen was feeling or Orochimarus motives for doing something the entire time. You've contradicted your self so many times already and you know what's funny? The first thing you said when you got up here was "you know what you're problem is you're so hung up with the hiruzen vs oro fight that you ignore the facts" and here we have you saying nothing but OPINION AND SPECULATION about what? About the HIRUZEN ORO and kage's fight. And nothing else which brings me back to the MAIN point of this entire argument. People refusing to give PRIME Hiruzen any credit when it's their is no evidence supporting that anyone could have beaten Hiruzen in his prime yet their is mild evidence in this fight where Hiruzen sealed BOTH hokages at his age. The handicap was obviously in favor of the two hokage's it's just that you will not admit this no matter what! Why? I don't know you try to down play hiruzen by mentioning feats. You can't say a thing about Hiruzens feats in his prime can you? NOPE. You know why? Because you can't bring up any kind of facts. Keep in mind the things you seem to call common sense is desperation in an attempt to bury any kind of credibility the 3rd has for his prime. Yet you refuse to ignore the evidence in front of your face that tells you the 3rd was a tough opponent. You ask me the dumbest questions that I've explained in the previous posts then again in this one. It's screaming desperation. Let me know if there is anything else you want to know so I can repeat my self.

But the problem is you have no proof how much stronger hiruzen is... How much he is capable of its just you guessing he could have been just abit faster and had abit more stamina and chakra ...

You also don't know how much stronger hashirama is (current hashirama Edo) who is showing op techs sm ect hiruzen has nothing on him unless you can tell me what he can even do to hurt hashirama ? And that Edo is still not at full power

And the oro thing .... Just before hiruzen used it Orochimaru said 'Show it to me' what else does that mean the same fight you link watch it and you will see

I guess you're the type of person who says Sakura > sasori and sm Naruto > pain right ?


Btw your arguement also works against you what proof is there that prime hiruzen could beat any current top 5 ?
Minato in that position could have done the same and ended up sealing Orochimaru along with him

And only reason is because you're using that fight to try say say hiruzen > hashirama and Tobirama

Let me guess hiruzen also beats kabuto ,madara,bm Naruto,ems sasuke,nagato,obito aswell? Hell this prime hiruzen also beats sage of six paths since he is so strong He doesn't exist , there is absolutely no information on him besides him being better than is older self other than that that hiruzen is pure speculation as you say... For all we know ems madara could beat prime hiruzen ( I am not saying he can sice I don't know how strong hiruzen is)

Please though carry on believing hiruzen is untouchable ill just tell you with his current feats even tsunade shits on him
You seem to know how strong this prime is though please tell me so i don't underrate him

 

[Smd]

prime hiruzen would still get murked by

tobirama
hashirama
itachi
madara
sasuke
naruto