Deidara and Sasori vs SM Jiraiya

[Heiwa no Kami]

Fair my ass. If you thought J-Man could take on Sasori, and D fairly you wouldn't need a terrain with nothing, but water. It's all g tho.

Fair as in even, not fair as in just.

 

[Lord Tywin]

All of your strategy depends on Jiraiya having the chakra reserves to use a clone while he's already in SM. Or that his clone has enough chakra to use SM. Not to mention Naruto could only make 2 or 3 clones, and his reserves are >>Jiraiya.

 

[Heiwa no Kami]

All of your strategy depends on Jiraiya having the chakra reserves to use a clone while he's already in SM. Or that his clone has enough chakra to use SM. Not to mention Naruto could only make 2 or 3 clones, and his reserves are >>Jiraiya.

Are you

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?

 

[NarutoX28]

All of your strategy depends on Jiraiya having the chakra reserves to use a clone while he's already in SM. Or that his clone has enough chakra to use SM. Not to mention Naruto could only make 2 or 3 clones, and his reserves are >>Jiraiya.

Naruto can create more far more than 2 clones. The reason he didn't was because he had clones back at Mt. Myoboku gathering Natural Energy which made it impossible for Naruto to create anymore.

Jiraiya has amazing reserves and even more so in Sage Mode, so I don't see why using a Kage Bushin is that big of a deal.

 

[Lord Tywin]

Are you

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?

Good Shit I forgot about that

 

[Zexion~]

I might as well just provide a fuller argument for Jiraiya.

At the start of the battle, Jiraiya first has Shima use

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in order to provide himself with cover and to cloud the Akatsuki pair's line of sight. In the cloud, Jiraiya quickly creates a Kage Bunshin, and subsequently uses

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to hide himself in a tiny, unseen toad. The next two events happen simultaneously:

• The clone Jiraiya uses
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  on the Akatsuki, thus keeping up the constant stream of pressure
• The tiny toad in which the real Jiraiya resides begins to swim away from the Akatsuki and further down into the ocean

The real Jiraiya will now begin prepping

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safely within his toad, while the clone Jiraiya will continue fighting against Deidara and Sasori. At this point, it must be stressed that the Akatsuki have not seen the creation of the clone, the summoning of the toad, or the retreat of the toad. They don't have a reason to suspect that the user of Kebari Senbon is anything other than the real Jiraiya, and they certainly don't have a reason to start launching underwater bombs hundreds of meters away.

Now, the clone Jiraiya simply has to buy enough time for Gama Rinshō to successfully prep. The clone's strategy will consist mostly evasion and long-range attacks in order to ensure survival (and deception) for as long as possible. After using Kebari Senbon, Clone Jiraiya will use

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, which will serve as a precognition of sorts, alerting Clone Jiraiya of bombs, Iron Sand, or any other moving objects coming his way. Finally, Clone Jiraiya and Clone Fukasaku will intermittently use

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and

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, respectively, to keep the Akatsuki from feeling comfortable. Given that

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, and that Base Sasuke could comfortably avoid Deidara's

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and

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variants (in the absence of mines, at least, which will be absent when fighting in the ocean), it seems pretty clear to me that the clone, with a sensing barrier, Sage precog, and speed at least comparable to Hebi Sasuke, will in fact evade and survive long enough for the real Jiraiya to prep Gama Rinshō.

Once the real Jiraiya is fully prepped, the real fight begins. The real Jiraiya will throw up his own sensing barrier and exit his toad. Jiraiya will emerge from the water around 100 meters from his original starting point and begin to close the distance by sprinting towards Deidara, until A) Jiraiya doesn't feel confident that he can safely dodge the enemy attacks, or B) Jiraiya reaches directly underneath Deidara, who will presumably be airborne at this point. Once either condition is satisfied, Jiraiya will summon

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to immediately raise himself a dozen or so meters in the air, roughly consistent with Deidara's

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when confronting a grounded opponent. If Jiraiya was directly underneath Deidara at the time of his summoning, Jiraiya will launch the fully harmonized Gama Rinshō, immediately putting Deidara in a powerful genjutsu. If Jiraiya were instead a couple dozen meters away from Deidara when summoning Gamaken, Jiraiya will launch himself from Gamaken towards Deidara to cover the rest of the distance, which he has shown himself

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very quickly. Once that happens, Jiraiya uses the fully harmonized Gama Rinshō, immediately putting Deidara in a powerful genjutsu. Even though he can position himself right next to Deidara, Jiraiya doesn't have to be right next to Deidara. He can instead be

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if need be. But anyways, once Deidara has fallen into a genjutsu, Jiraiya will either use

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or

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to immediately finish off Deidara.

Now, the fight boils down to SM Jiraiya vs. Sasori, in Amegakure, which is a far easier fight that I'll save arguing for later. I'll also fill in a bit of material I missed in terms of the above material when I'm less busy.

-Deidara has the sight and vision to see the toad, and he's not dumb enough to believe a toad just happened to appear after a smoke screen. Honestly it wouldn't be very hard at all to KO that toad with Jiraiya inside its an easy way to give Deidara the quick win.

-Even if he doesn't see it with his scope that zooms in incredibly, you're suggesting a clone of SM Jiraiya (which I doubt has the toads on his back, couldn't tell in manga) could hold off both Deidara and Sasori based off the one fire ball technique the clone used?

Even within the clone strategy there are false points you made but that doesn't matter as you're treatig a clone like its the original :lol

 

[Heiwa no Kami]

-Deidara has the sight and vision to see the toad, and he's not dumb enough to believe a toad just happened to appear after a smoke screen. Honestly it wouldn't be very hard at all to KO that toad with Jiraiya inside its an easy way to give Deidara the quick win.

Did you know that when you try to use a scope on an object you can't see through (like, say,

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or

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), all you get is a magnified image of the same, nontransparent object? The reason why is because telescopes

You must be registered for see links

; they don't create light that isn't there. So if Deidara tries to scope within the dust cloud, he's not going to see a toad; he's going to see magnified dust. And when the dust clears several seconds later, the toad containing the real Jiraiya will be at least a dozen meters underwater; given that depth and the turbidity of the ocean surface (due to the constant rain in Amegakure and the intensity of the battle), there's going to be zero water visibility, and it's going to be literally impossible to spot a toad with a telescope. So yes, while theoretically it would be easier to kill a small toad than it would be to kill J-man himself, in reality, Deidara isn't going to see the toad, so he won't even try to kill the toad in the first place.

-Even if he doesn't see it with his scope that zooms in incredibly, you're suggesting a clone of SM Jiraiya (which I doubt has the toads on his back, couldn't tell in manga) could hold off both Deidara and Sasori based off the one fire ball technique the clone used?

First, Jiraiya's clone unequivocally has the Elder Sages on his back. Here we see

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, and here we see the Katon-using Jiraiya with toads on his shoulder

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. Second, I think that if Jiraiya sends 50% of his chakra to his clone, then the clone can stay alive for the amount of time it took for Animal Path to run down

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small

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and get

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which, coincidentally, is the length of time needed to prep Gama Rinshō. This may not even be a 60-second proposition. And Dai Endan is simply an example of a technique with wide range that clone Jiraiya can use in order to buy a couple extra precious seconds. This really is not that controversial a strategy.

Even within the clone strategy there are false points you made but that doesn't matter as you're treatig a clone like its the original :lol

I never make false points . And I don't need to treat the clone like the original in order to claim that it can survive for 60 seconds against Deidara and Sasori, particularly when this clone has half of Jiraiya's chakra, SM, sage-sensing, several long-range attacks, and a sensing barrier.

 

[Brother Numpsay]

Jiraiya is being criminally underrated in this thread.

-Snip-

Based on your arguments, it seems he is being criminally overrated here.

1. Your whole premise is based off Deidara and Sasori facing a clone temporally and struggling with it. And cloning Ma/PA (which canonically they can't be duplicated)

2. Your premise has Jiraya waste time setting up a Genjutsu to which is viable in countering via Partner Method (since Sasori will not be effected by Genjutsu). Plus the fact DB gave Sasori's Genjutsu experience 4/5. Should be enough to say genjutsu is nonfactor

3. Your premise has misconception on what Sasori's fastest IS attack is. Which Chiyo failed to physically avoid. So you have no feats to suggest Jiraya would be able to physically avoid IS spike, just because you think Jiraya is better than her(

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). Yet along avoid ISWO.

4. Your premise assume's Jiraya (non perfect Sage) is capable of chakra senses based on no manga support. And Imma assume if it was, it's based on a DB mistranslated from a fan.

Whats worst of this criminally overrating is Jiraya reacting to a double assaults of Deidara and Sasori's attacks execution. Along with them having no sense of intelligence for their attack methods too.

 

[Heiwa no Kami]

Based on your arguments, it seems he is being criminally overrated here.

1. Your whole premise is based off Deidara and Sasori facing a clone temporally and struggling with it. And cloning Ma/PA (which canonically they can't be duplicated)

My premise is based off Deidara and Sasori facing a clone temporarily and failing to kill it in 60 seconds, yes. And I suggest that you

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before you make statements about canon.

2. Your premise has Jiraya waste time setting up a Genjutsu to which is viable in countering via Partner Method (since Sasori will not be effected by Genjutsu). Plus the fact DB gave Sasori's Genjutsu experience 4/5. Should be enough to say genjutsu is nonfactor

Covered the fact that Jiraiya would be point-blank when launching the Genjutsu at Deidara. Gives him more than enough time for a Rasengan to the face before Sasori can touch Deidara. And since you didn't counter that...

3. Your premise has misconception on what Sasori's fastest IS attack is. Which Chiyo failed to physically avoid. So you have no feats to suggest Jiraya would be able to physically avoid IS spike, just because you think Jiraya is better than her(

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). Yet along avoid ISWO.

I genuinely thought this was obvious. Guess not...

• As you seem to respect the databook, Chiyo has a 4 in speed and Base Jiraiya has a 4.5
• Jiraiya gets a tremendous
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  in
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• Against Sasori's fastest attack, Chiyo was able to divert her attention to and save Sakura, and then react fast enough to
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  .
• Given that Jiraiya has a sensing barrier, and that, again, SM Jiraiya is way faster than Chiyo, it seems patently obvious to me that Jiraiya should be able to dodge Sasori's fastest attack at least once
• And, since Sasori's fastest attack
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  , it will go straight into the ocean, thus washing away all the poison and nerfing IS for the rest of the match.

4. Your premise assume's Jiraya (non perfect Sage) is capable of chakra senses based on no manga support. And Imma assume if it was, it's based on a DB mistranslated from a fan.

Mistakenly assumed Frog Kata => sage sensing. Don't really think it matters, though, given all the other considerations I've mentioned before and given how little time Jiraiya will actually have to spend dodging the attacks of the duo.

Whats worst of this criminally overrating is Jiraya reacting to a double assaults of Deidara and Sasori's attacks execution. Along with them having no sense of intelligence for their attack methods too.

Um, please explain how they will kill 50% Clone Jiraiya in under 60 seconds and then kill SM Jiraiya instantly. Very curious to hear how you think they do that.

 

[Brother Numpsay]

My premise is based off Deidara and Sasori facing a clone temporarily and failing to kill it in 60 seconds, yes. And I suggest that you

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before you make statements about canon.

Lets reads the sequence properly.[

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] [

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][

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][

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].

Jman was in front of them the whole time. Jman clone attacked from the rear. The next page Jman explained its purpose to divert Preta, blocking his LoS. The very next scan shows the original Jman firing Katon from the front, to the only person that can see him.

Jman was never able to clone Pa and Ma

Covered the fact that Jiraiya would be point-blank when launching the Genjutsu at Deidara. Gives him more than enough time for a Rasengan to the face before Sasori can touch Deidara. And since you didn't counter that...

- Jiraya (or the frog) would have swarms of Land Mines he would have to bypass underwater, let alone fish clay.

- Deidara can be a Bushin fighting the whole time while the orignal hides under safe located clay underwater via flank.

- IS quantity of sand (equivalent to Gaara's sand inside his gourd) would

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any summoning trying jump above them.

I genuinely thought this was obvious. Guess not...

• As you seem to respect the databook, Chiyo has a 4 in speed and Base Jiraiya has a 4.5
• Jiraiya gets a tremendous
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  in
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• Against Sasori's fastest attack, Chiyo was able to divert her attention to and save Sakura, and then react fast enough to
  You must be registered for see links
  .
• Given that Jiraiya has a sensing barrier, and that, again, SM Jiraiya is way faster than Chiyo, it seems patently obvious to me that Jiraiya should be able to dodge Sasori's fastest attack at least once
• And, since Sasori's fastest attack
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  , it will go straight into the ocean, thus washing away all the poison and nerfing IS for the rest of the match.

Irrelevant that doesnt automatically mean you can argue that Jiraya can dodge it. If I were to use your ABC logic, I could say that: "Since Base Guy is faster than Danzo and Kakashi, Base Guy should be able to physically avoid Susanoo Arrow." You can only argue that Jman can use the equivalent to what Chiyo has done, base on superior stats. But you cant devalue the speed of the attack she had to face, without no feats of Jman reacting to something greater.

The Poison is dyed into the IS, it will only dilute it. And thats no evidence to say the poison wont be any effective, diluted.

Mistakenly assumed Frog Kata => sage sensing. Don't really think it matters, though, given all the other considerations I've mentioned before and given how little time Jiraiya will actually have to spend dodging the attacks of the duo.

With IS in the start of the match, yea I dont see him dodging its speed execution or its AoE.

Um, please explain how they will kill 50% Clone Jiraiya in under 60 seconds and then kill SM Jiraiya instantly. Very curious to hear how you think they do that.

IS projectile the moment the clone reveals himself.

Never said Bold.

 

[Curse Mark]

Jiraiya's clone never cloned ma and pa. Look at his shoulders. I don't agree that he wouldn't be able to, but he didn't in this scan.

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On the next page Jiraiya himself (not the clone) uses another katon.

 

[Ghost in the Shell]

First to post, last to know; Nardo base users shall defend to death their right to post complete BS, lol. I knew that people who roam these areas are generally misinformed when it comes to Jiraiya, but I didn't know it was this bad.

 

[Zexion~]

Did you know that when you try to use a scope on an object you can't see through (like, say,

You must be registered for see links

or

You must be registered for see links

), all you get is a magnified image of the same, nontransparent object? The reason why is because telescopes

You must be registered for see links

; they don't create light that isn't there. So if Deidara tries to scope within the dust cloud, he's not going to see a toad; he's going to see magnified dust. And when the dust clears several seconds later, the toad containing the real Jiraiya will be at least a dozen meters underwater; given that depth and the turbidity of the ocean surface (due to the constant rain in Amegakure and the intensity of the battle), there's going to be zero water visibility, and it's going to be literally impossible to spot a toad with a telescope. So yes, while theoretically it would be easier to kill a small toad than it would be to kill J-man himself, in reality, Deidara isn't going to see the toad, so he won't even try to kill the toad in the first place.


First, Jiraiya's clone unequivocally has the Elder Sages on his back. Here we see

You must be registered for see links

, and here we see the Katon-using Jiraiya with toads on his shoulder

You must be registered for see links

. Second, I think that if Jiraiya sends 50% of his chakra to his clone, then the clone can stay alive for the amount of time it took for Animal Path to run down

You must be registered for see links

small

You must be registered for see links

and get

You must be registered for see links

which, coincidentally, is the length of time needed to prep Gama Rinshō. This may not even be a 60-second proposition. And Dai Endan is simply an example of a technique with wide range that clone Jiraiya can use in order to buy a couple extra precious seconds. This really is not that controversial a strategy.


I never make false points . And I don't need to treat the clone like the original in order to claim that it can survive for 60 seconds against Deidara and Sasori, particularly when this clone has half of Jiraiya's chakra, SM, sage-sensing, several long-range attacks, and a sensing barrier.

-I'll admit the dust cloud technique would work here with Water only.

-Even if he can prep the genjutsu, like I said it takes so long for the effects to take place even when the user is listening to it. Deidara would be miles up in the sky before any paralysis would be taken into effect on Deidara.

-Clone didn't have Ma and Pa

-Read the manga again the toads were singing long before they even reached Jiraiya in that hallway, hence why Jiraiya needed the pipes to confuse them and leangthen the time it took to track him down.

Overall the clone would be man-handled and any summons take IS or mini C4 to the face, C2 should even be enough to put them down.

First to post, last to know; Nardo base users shall defend to death their right to post complete BS, lol. I knew that people who roam these areas are generally misinformed when it comes to Jiraiya, but I didn't know it was this bad.

Ultimate J-Man wanker.

 

[Curse Mark]

Dust cloud is a wind tech. It shouldnt have any effect on the water

 

[Icelerate]

Ultimate J-Man wanker.

Says the ultimate Akatsuki wanker.

 

[Zexion~]

Says the ultimate Akatsuki wanker.

:lol I don't wank anymore Ice, get a new thing.

 

[Uchihakil]

Is'nt Ma blowing air from her mouth and uses the ground to create dust, so he won't be able to make any dust, frog song aint working on sasori nor his puppets, I'll like so see jman fending off iron sand attack + c2 explosives and other c2 fish from under water as well as poisoned needles, jman would be defeated, it won't be easy as he is smart, but the duo would overpower him, one scratch from sasori's weapons and he is a goner, swamp of the underworld is useless here also, them needles aint reaching deidara and sasori can either use his puppet body as shield or use another puppet to block the needles or roast them with katon or use iron sand to block'em