Deidara and Sasori vs SM Jiraiya

Heiwa no Kami

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Location - Amegakure, where Obito and Konan fought
Distance - 40 meters
Intel - Manga
Conditions - Jiraiya starts with Ma and Pa fused, Sasori starts with 3rd Kazekage out
Restrictions - C3, C0

Who wins and why?
 

Eng nawashi

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SM Jiraya wins this Mid diff ,SM jiraya +Ma+Pa+3 boss toads with their combo attacks are too much for the akatsuki pair to handle .
 

Beans2

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Normally give it to the Akatsuki but in this location Jiraiya might just win
 

Zexion~

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So over the water? No mines but i'm sure Deidara could stack the water with explosive fish that would keep Jiraiya on edge.

I honestly feel Deidara takes this matchup alone, only trouble is summons everything else Jiraiya has is useless.
 

Brother Numpsay

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Ill debate for Sasori alone if this thread gets interesting to discuss.
 

Simbv

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So over the water? No mines but i'm sure Deidara could stack the water with explosive fish that would keep Jiraiya on edge.

I honestly feel Deidara takes this matchup alone, only trouble is summons everything else Jiraiya has is useless.

Jiraya doesn't have a counter for C0 or C4.
 

Claymantan

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Normally give it to the Akatsuki but in this location Jiraiya might just win

I don't understand why Jiraiya specifically has an advantage over Sasori and Deidara over water.
 

Heiwa no Kami

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I don't understand why Jiraiya specifically has an advantage over Sasori and Deidara over water.

In this location:
  • Deidara can't use mines
  • Sasori is severely limited in his Iron Sand attack pattern; by shooting the sand downward, he washes the poison off of his sand
  • Jiraiya can make extremely effective use of Hiding in a Toad
Jiraya doesn't have a counter for C0 or C4.

C0 is restricted. Jiraiya can throw up a sensing barrier to alert him of C4's presence, or he can simply hide underwater to avoid it entirely.

I honestly feel Deidara takes this matchup alone, only trouble is summons everything else Jiraiya has is useless.
Ill debate for Sasori alone if this thread gets interesting to discuss.

Jiraiya is being criminally underrated in this thread.
 

Simbv

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In this location:
  • Deidara can't use mines



    C0 is restricted. Jiraiya can throw up a sensing barrier to alert him of C4's presence, or he can simply hide underwater to avoid it entirely.


  • He would be able to mold fish and throw it into the water.


    EDIT: I got C0 and C3 mixed up. Why are we restricting C3? It's one of Deidaras most useful and powerful attack..
 

Zexion~

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Jiraiya is being criminally underrated in this thread.


Not really its just that he's usually overraed, honestly if you think about it the greatest thing SM gives him is the enhanced speed. All of the other jutsu he used were practically only useful in the location of Amekagure, nothing he has can touch Deidara, not Frog song, not Gouten, not even the hyped to hell TFB as Deidara can easily escape its range as Jiraiya can't remain in the air like he can.
 

Heiwa no Kami

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He would be able to mold fish and throw it into the water.


EDIT: I got C0 and C3 mixed up. Why are we restricting C3? It's one of Deidaras most useful and powerful attack..
Fish =/= mines, and they have their disadvantages, particularly against an opponent like Jiraiya. And C3 is restricted because we're trying to give Jiraiya a fighting chance against two Akatsuki members.

Not really its just that he's usually overraed, honestly if you think about it the greatest thing SM gives him is the enhanced speed. All of the other jutsu he used were practically only useful in the location of Amekagure, nothing he has can touch Deidara, not Frog song, not Gouten, not even the hyped to hell TFB as Deidara can easily escape its range as Jiraiya can't remain in the air like he can.
Why on earth do you think Gama Rinsho can't touch Deidara? His only conceivable counter is to prevent it from being launched in the first place, and that's exceptionally difficult for Deidara to do in this location.
 

super yang

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jiraiya is being weakened by fighting on water. his earth & fire control the ground w/ priority & range

if deidara made stationary mines on land, jiraiya would sink them into his swamp.
but here he has to contend w/ the more mobile fish bombs
 

Heiwa no Kami

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jiraiya is being weakened by fighting on water. his earth & fire control the ground w/ priority & range

if deidara made stationary mines on land, jiraiya would sink them into his swamp.
but here he has to contend w/ the more mobile fish bombs
Against Deidara and Sasori, Hiding in a Toad is far more useful than Swamp of the Underworld, the former only being usable when fighting on water. Not to mention the fact that this location all but neuters Sasori.

There really isn't a more advantageous location for Jiraiya against these opponents. Willing to full-on debate this against anyone willing.
 

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Why on earth do you think Gama Rinsho can't touch Deidara? His only conceivable counter is to prevent it from being launched in the first place, and that's exceptionally difficult for Deidara to do in this location.

If you're up in the air can you hear things from the ground? Its that simple, its a jutsu that relies on a weak medium and it needed the pipes within Amekagure to confuse Pain long enough before he could do anything about it (which was a decently long amount of time). Deidara can easily fly out of its range and use remote bombs to interupt its casting.
 

Heiwa no Kami

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I might as well just provide a fuller argument for Jiraiya.

At the start of the battle, Jiraiya first has Shima use in order to provide himself with cover and to cloud the Akatsuki pair's line of sight. In the cloud, Jiraiya quickly creates a Kage Bunshin, and subsequently uses to hide himself in a tiny, unseen toad. The next two events happen simultaneously:
  • The clone Jiraiya uses on the Akatsuki, thus keeping up the constant stream of pressure
  • The tiny toad in which the real Jiraiya resides begins to swim away from the Akatsuki and further down into the ocean
The real Jiraiya will now begin prepping safely within his toad, while the clone Jiraiya will continue fighting against Deidara and Sasori. At this point, it must be stressed that the Akatsuki have not seen the creation of the clone, the summoning of the toad, or the retreat of the toad. They don't have a reason to suspect that the user of Kebari Senbon is anything other than the real Jiraiya, and they certainly don't have a reason to start launching underwater bombs hundreds of meters away.

Now, the clone Jiraiya simply has to buy enough time for Gama Rinshō to successfully prep. The clone's strategy will consist mostly evasion and long-range attacks in order to ensure survival (and deception) for as long as possible. After using Kebari Senbon, Clone Jiraiya will use , which will serve as a precognition of sorts, alerting Clone Jiraiya of bombs, Iron Sand, or any other moving objects coming his way. Finally, Clone Jiraiya and Clone Fukasaku will intermittently use and , respectively, to keep the Akatsuki from feeling comfortable. Given that , and that Base Sasuke could comfortably avoid Deidara's and variants (in the absence of mines, at least, which will be absent when fighting in the ocean), it seems pretty clear to me that the clone, with a sensing barrier, Sage precog, and speed at least comparable to Hebi Sasuke, will in fact evade and survive long enough for the real Jiraiya to prep Gama Rinshō.

Once the real Jiraiya is fully prepped, the real fight begins. The real Jiraiya will throw up his own sensing barrier and exit his toad. Jiraiya will emerge from the water around 100 meters from his original starting point and begin to close the distance by sprinting towards Deidara, until A) Jiraiya doesn't feel confident that he can safely dodge the enemy attacks, or B) Jiraiya reaches directly underneath Deidara, who will presumably be airborne at this point. Once either condition is satisfied, Jiraiya will summon to immediately raise himself a dozen or so meters in the air, roughly consistent with Deidara's when confronting a grounded opponent. If Jiraiya was directly underneath Deidara at the time of his summoning, Jiraiya will launch the fully harmonized Gama Rinshō, immediately putting Deidara in a powerful genjutsu. If Jiraiya were instead a couple dozen meters away from Deidara when summoning Gamaken, Jiraiya will launch himself from Gamaken towards Deidara to cover the rest of the distance, which he has shown himself very quickly. Once that happens, Jiraiya uses the fully harmonized Gama Rinshō, immediately putting Deidara in a powerful genjutsu. Even though he can position himself right next to Deidara, Jiraiya doesn't have to be right next to Deidara. He can instead be if need be. But anyways, once Deidara has fallen into a genjutsu, Jiraiya will either use or to immediately finish off Deidara.

Now, the fight boils down to SM Jiraiya vs. Sasori, in Amegakure, which is a far easier fight that I'll save arguing for later. I'll also fill in a bit of material I missed in terms of the above material when I'm less busy.
 

Beans2

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I might as well just provide a fuller argument for Jiraiya.

At the start of the battle, Jiraiya first has Shima use in order to provide himself with cover and to cloud the Akatsuki pair's line of sight. In the cloud, Jiraiya quickly creates a Kage Bunshin, and subsequently uses to hide himself in a tiny, unseen toad. The next two events happen simultaneously:
  • The clone Jiraiya uses on the Akatsuki, thus keeping up the constant stream of pressure
  • The tiny toad in which the real Jiraiya resides begins to swim away from the Akatsuki and further down into the ocean
The real Jiraiya will now begin prepping safely within his toad, while the clone Jiraiya will continue fighting against Deidara and Sasori. At this point, it must be stressed that the Akatsuki have not seen the creation of the clone, the summoning of the toad, or the retreat of the toad. They don't have a reason to suspect that the user of Kebari Senbon is anything other than the real Jiraiya, and they certainly don't have a reason to start launching underwater bombs hundreds of meters away.

Now, the clone Jiraiya simply has to buy enough time for Gama Rinshō to successfully prep. The clone's strategy will consist mostly evasion and long-range attacks in order to ensure survival (and deception) for as long as possible. After using Kebari Senbon, Clone Jiraiya will use , which will serve as a precognition of sorts, alerting Clone Jiraiya of bombs, Iron Sand, or any other moving objects coming his way. Finally, Clone Jiraiya and Clone Fukasaku will intermittently use and , respectively, to keep the Akatsuki from feeling comfortable. Given that , and that Base Sasuke could comfortably avoid Deidara's and variants (in the absence of mines, at least, which will be absent when fighting in the ocean), it seems pretty clear to me that the clone, with a sensing barrier, Sage precog, and speed at least comparable to Hebi Sasuke, will in fact evade and survive long enough for the real Jiraiya to prep Gama Rinshō.

Once the real Jiraiya is fully prepped, the real fight begins. The real Jiraiya will throw up his own sensing barrier and exit his toad. Jiraiya will emerge from the water around 100 meters from his original starting point and begin to close the distance by sprinting towards Deidara, until A) Jiraiya doesn't feel confident that he can safely dodge the enemy attacks, or B) Jiraiya reaches directly underneath Deidara, who will presumably be airborne at this point. Once either condition is satisfied, Jiraiya will summon to immediately raise himself a dozen or so meters in the air, roughly consistent with Deidara's when confronting a grounded opponent. If Jiraiya was directly underneath Deidara at the time of his summoning, Jiraiya will launch the fully harmonized Gama Rinshō, immediately putting Deidara in a powerful genjutsu. If Jiraiya were instead a couple dozen meters away from Deidara when summoning Gamaken, Jiraiya will launch himself from Gamaken towards Deidara to cover the rest of the distance, which he has shown himself very quickly. Once that happens, Jiraiya uses the fully harmonized Gama Rinshō, immediately putting Deidara in a powerful genjutsu. Even though he can position himself right next to Deidara, Jiraiya doesn't have to be right next to Deidara. He can instead be if need be. But anyways, once Deidara has fallen into a genjutsu, Jiraiya will either use or to immediately finish off Deidara.

Now, the fight boils down to SM Jiraiya vs. Sasori, in Amegakure, which is a far easier fight that I'll save arguing for later. I'll also fill in a bit of material I missed in terms of the above material when I'm less busy.

Heiwa put in that work I see.
 

Genyūmaru1

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I might as well just provide a fuller argument for Jiraiya.

At the start of the battle, Jiraiya first has Shima use in order to provide himself with cover and to cloud the Akatsuki pair's line of sight. In the cloud, Jiraiya quickly creates a Kage Bunshin, and subsequently uses to hide himself in a tiny, unseen toad. The next two events happen simultaneously:
  • The clone Jiraiya uses on the Akatsuki, thus keeping up the constant stream of pressure
  • The tiny toad in which the real Jiraiya resides begins to swim away from the Akatsuki and further down into the ocean
The real Jiraiya will now begin prepping safely within his toad, while the clone Jiraiya will continue fighting against Deidara and Sasori. At this point, it must be stressed that the Akatsuki have not seen the creation of the clone, the summoning of the toad, or the retreat of the toad. They don't have a reason to suspect that the user of Kebari Senbon is anything other than the real Jiraiya, and they certainly don't have a reason to start launching underwater bombs hundreds of meters away.

Now, the clone Jiraiya simply has to buy enough time for Gama Rinshō to successfully prep. The clone's strategy will consist mostly evasion and long-range attacks in order to ensure survival (and deception) for as long as possible. After using Kebari Senbon, Clone Jiraiya will use , which will serve as a precognition of sorts, alerting Clone Jiraiya of bombs, Iron Sand, or any other moving objects coming his way. Finally, Clone Jiraiya and Clone Fukasaku will intermittently use and , respectively, to keep the Akatsuki from feeling comfortable. Given that , and that Base Sasuke could comfortably avoid Deidara's and variants (in the absence of mines, at least, which will be absent when fighting in the ocean), it seems pretty clear to me that the clone, with a sensing barrier, Sage precog, and speed at least comparable to Hebi Sasuke, will in fact evade and survive long enough for the real Jiraiya to prep Gama Rinshō.

Once the real Jiraiya is fully prepped, the real fight begins. The real Jiraiya will throw up his own sensing barrier and exit his toad. Jiraiya will emerge from the water around 100 meters from his original starting point and begin to close the distance by sprinting towards Deidara, until A) Jiraiya doesn't feel confident that he can safely dodge the enemy attacks, or B) Jiraiya reaches directly underneath Deidara, who will presumably be airborne at this point. Once either condition is satisfied, Jiraiya will summon to immediately raise himself a dozen or so meters in the air, roughly consistent with Deidara's when confronting a grounded opponent. If Jiraiya was directly underneath Deidara at the time of his summoning, Jiraiya will launch the fully harmonized Gama Rinshō, immediately putting Deidara in a powerful genjutsu. If Jiraiya were instead a couple dozen meters away from Deidara when summoning Gamaken, Jiraiya will launch himself from Gamaken towards Deidara to cover the rest of the distance, which he has shown himself very quickly. Once that happens, Jiraiya uses the fully harmonized Gama Rinshō, immediately putting Deidara in a powerful genjutsu. Even though he can position himself right next to Deidara, Jiraiya doesn't have to be right next to Deidara. He can instead be if need be. But anyways, once Deidara has fallen into a genjutsu, Jiraiya will either use or to immediately finish off Deidara.

Now, the fight boils down to SM Jiraiya vs. Sasori, in Amegakure, which is a far easier fight that I'll save arguing for later. I'll also fill in a bit of material I missed in terms of the above material when I'm less busy.

I'll prob counter this if no one else does. Onesided af.

Lmao OP why the hell did you make the terrain advantageous to Jiraiya. You knew what the hell you were doing.
 
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Heiwa no Kami

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Heiwa put in that work I see.

Compared to the Negative Knight/Varrah/Waltz walls of old, this is pretty childish. Thoughts on the content though?

I'll prob counter this if no one else does. Onesided af.

Lmao OP why the hell did you make the terrain advantageous to Jiraiya. You knew what the hell you were doing.

Counter away, good sir.

And I made the terrain advantageous to Jiraiya because it's a fairer matchup that way.
 

Genyūmaru1

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Compared to the Negative Knight/Varrah/Waltz walls of old, this is pretty childish. Thoughts on the content though?



Counter away, good sir.

And I made the terrain advantageous to Jiraiya because it's a fairer matchup that way.

Fair my ass. If you thought J-Man could take on Sasori, and D fairly you wouldn't need a terrain with nothing, but water. It's all g tho.
 
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