Could EMS madara beat Hashirama without Kyuubi?

InfiniteMugen

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No not really, if he killed Hashirama and was still out there he'd be a threat and potentially hunted. He couldn't operate in secret and would never have the luxury of attempting to bring his plans to fruition. However as a dead man it's easier as the world's attention is elsewhere.
Hunted by.... who? No one even came to close to a “madara” type power until itachi came around as far as we know. So if he managed to kill hashi, who would of been around to hunt him down? Also, madara was on his own at this point, why would it be hard to hide for him? Who would pursue madara? Hell everyone that came into contact with him was scared shitless.

Like why would he have to hide if he could beat the literal only person who could stand up to him?
 

salamander uchiha

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Hunted by.... who? No one even came to close to a “madara” type power until itachi came around as far as we know. So if he managed to kill hashi, who would of been around to hunt him down? Also, madara was on his own at this point, why would it be hard to hide for him? Who would pursue madara? Hell everyone that came into contact with him was scared shitless.

Like why would he have to hide if he could beat the literal only person who could stand up to him?
That's just it, kill the Kage of Konoha and you'll have the Senju and other clans after him. Hashirama was the only individual person that could stand up to him that doesn't rule out the rest of the clans from Konoha as a collective especially with Tobirama Senju in charge.
 

InfiniteMugen

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That's just it, kill the Kage of Konoha and you'll have the Senju and other clans after him. Hashirama was the only individual person that could stand up to him that doesn't rule out the rest of the clans from Konoha as a collective especially with Tobirama Senju in charge.
Right, so the senju and other clans are gonna send off people on a suicide mission? If they wanted to do something like that, or could, They probably would of taken him down. We see people’s reactions to madara when he left konoha, I find it hard to believe they’d hunt him down if he went into hiding. It sounds more like an excuse than anything else. Like a bunch of high ranking named shinobi couldn’t even touch the dude but a bunch of unnamed senju(who most people will say clan itself is weak outside of hashi and tobi) worried him enough to hide for the rest of his life?

Like if that makes more sense than him making the plan cause he couldn’t beat hashi(a fact established) or just didn’t want to have to rely on something he wasn’t sure he can do I don’t really know what else to say. Like I don’t recall one panel suggesting he made the plan in fear of the rest of the clans of konoha.
 
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salamander uchiha

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Right, so the senju and other clans are gonna send off people on a suicide mission? If they wanted to do something like that, or could, They probably would of taken him down. We see people’s reactions to madara when he left konoha, I find it hard to believe they’d hunt him down if he went into hiding. It sounds more like an excuse than anything else. Like a bunch of high ranking named shinobi couldn’t even touch the dude but a bunch of unnamed senju(who most people will say clan itself is weak outside of hashi and tobi) worried him enough to hide for the rest of his life?
Who said unnamed? Tobirama is the Hokage and he will hunt Madara down. Madara killed their Hokage and pretty much declared war on Konoha just because he killed one doesn't mean he wont target Konoha again. You're acting as if Konoha a village full of many clans and battle hardened ninja can't overcome Madara, I'm his fan and all but I'm not one who over praises him. It doesn't matter what "most people" say the Senju and Uchiha were the top of the world order for a reason that doesn't detract from the facts.

Madara's even shocked learning the Sarutobi and Shimura are joining the village and sweat appears on his face.

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Like I said it wouldn't be purely individuals but a collection of ninja from many clans. Eliminating your greatest threat would be priority for any nation especially Konoha.

Like if that makes more sense than him making the plan cause he couldn’t beat hashi(a fact established) or just didn’t want to have to rely on something he wasn’t sure he can do I don’t really know what else to say. Like I don’t recall one panel suggesting he made the plan in fear of the rest of the clans of konoha.
Why would there need to be a panel to explain a basic strategy? Who said Madara was afraid? Disappearing so you can enact your plan without interference, spying and what not is what anybody would do. And there's no better way than making the world believe your dead that way nobody would be looking for you. If he wasn't bothered by it or it wasn't part of his plan he wouldn't have left a fake doppleganger in his place after Izanagi. It's not hard to see he wanted the world to continue believing he was dead.
 

InfiniteMugen

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Who said unnamed? Tobirama is the Hokage and he will hunt Madara down. Madara killed their Hokage and pretty much declared war on Konoha just because he killed one doesn't mean he wont target Konoha again. You're acting as if Konoha a village full of many clans and battle hardened ninja can't overcome Madara, I'm his fan and all but I'm not one who over praises him. It doesn't matter what "most people" say the Senju and Uchiha were the top of the world order for a reason that doesn't detract from the facts.

Madara's even shocked learning the Sarutobi and Shimura are joining the village and sweat appears on his face.

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Like I said it wouldn't be purely individuals but a collection of ninja from many clans. Eliminating your greatest threat would be priority for any nation especially Konoha.



Why would there need to be a panel to explain a basic strategy?Who said Madara was afraid? Disappearing so you can enact your plan without interference, spying and what not is what anybody would do. And there's no better way than making the world believe your dead that way nobody would be looking for you. If he wasn't bothered by it or it wasn't part of his plan he wouldn't have left a fake doppleganger in his place after Izanagi. It's not hard to see he wanted the world to continue believing he was dead.
It’d be there if you didn’t make it up, your literally just assuming what you want, and the telling other people their wrong with no proof that your right lol

Also there’s no reason for him to fear someone stopping his plan, as no one else existed who could read what his plan was. It takes a lot of other shit to sound stupid for the thought of “oh he could of beat hashi if an when he wanted” to make any actual sense. In less your accusing kishi of being a shit tier writer

The other issue is, madara wasn’t even sure it would work, he ate the flesh young and didn’t see the results until he got old, and was surprised... super planned out dude

And lastly it’s ooc. Your telling me elitist ass madara who saw hashi as his only rival, finally
Gained the power to beat him and just decided “nah, I don’t care who’s stronger, I got this plan thatll come to fruition in like 40 yrs “

Edit: and technically it was bz’s plan
 
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salamander uchiha

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It’d be there if you didn’t make it up, your literally just assuming what you want, and the telling other people their wrong with no proof that your right lol
I told you before it's basic strategy and I explained it before but here's a scan confirming his intention and his forward looking.

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Also there’s no reason for him to fear someone stopping his plan, as no one else existed who could read what his plan was. It takes a lot of other shit to sound stupid for the thought of “oh he could of beat hashi if an when he wanted” to make any actual sense. In less your accusing kishi of being a shit tier writer
That's not the point, he kills Hashi and that would automatically make him public enemy number 1. Madara being hunted would interfere with his plan I've already explained this. You viewing kishi as a shit writer is on you not on kishi.

The other issue is, madara wasn’t even sure it would work, he ate the flesh young and didn’t see the results until he got old, and was surprised... super planned out dude
Again not the point, disappearing makes it easier to try and make the plan work than being hunted, which was already addressed.

And lastly it’s ooc. Your telling me elitist ass madara who saw hashi as his only rival, finally
Gained the power to beat him and just decided “nah, I don’t care who’s stronger, I got this plan thatll come to fruition in like 40 yrs “
Yes since his purpose changed, he made it clear to Hashi during their Edo clash. There's nothing OOC here, your assuming a Madara who gained a new world view would let his pride get in the way of his end game.

Edit: and technically it was bz’s plan
No awakening the Rinnegan, the mezo and all that was left behind by the Sage. BZ wrote about the IT as salvation, however that part could never come to fruition without Madara first awakening the Rinnegan.
 
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InfiniteMugen

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I told you before it's basic strategy and I explained it before but here's a scan confirming his intention and his forward looking.

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That's not the point, he kills Hashi and that would automatically make him public enemy number 1. Madara being hunted would interfere with his plan I've already explained this. You viewing kishi as a shit writer is on you not on kishi.



Again not the point, disappearing makes it easier to try and make the plan work than being hunted, which was already addressed.



Yes since his purpose changed, he made it clear to Hashi during their Edo clash. There's nothing OOC here, your assuming a Madara who gained a new world view would let his pride get in the way of his end game.



No awakening the Rinnegan, the mezo and all that was left behind by the Sage. BZ wrote about the IT as salvation, however that part could never come to fruition without Madara first awakening the Rinnegan.
This is cute, and I applaud the effort, but where in there does it say he could beat hashi? We’re talking about whether madara made the plan while still knowing he could beat hashi, or if he made the plan because he couldn’t beat hashi, and this was the best way under the circumstances. Whether he had a plan that fight isn’t in question. I don’t buy for one second that anyone would of been successful in hunting madara down, nor do I think killing hashi would of made things much worse for him, as he was already public enemy #1 after running around threatening villages after talks of peace.

Even in the scenario they did hunt them down, it’s madara dude.... madara. Without hashi around no one could stop him, we know madara can take an army, we’re talking one village, as any other villages probably wouldn’t have given a shit at the time.

At best we can confirm he didn’t HAVE to beat hashi anymore to achieve what he wanted now, but everything else, even their encounter as Edos, suggests he still considered hashi the only one who could fight or beat him. If he wasn’t sure he could kill hashi and get him out of the way, disappearing is probably the best bet
 

salamander uchiha

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This is cute, and I applaud the effort, but where in there does it say he could beat hashi? We’re talking about whether madara made the plan while still knowing he could beat hashi, or if he made the plan because he couldn’t beat hashi, and this was the best way under the circumstances. Whether he had a plan that fight isn’t in question. I don’t buy for one second that anyone would of been successful in hunting madara down, nor do I think killing hashi would of made things much worse for him, as he was already public enemy #1 after running around threatening villages after talks of peace.
Again you missed the point Madara's plan was to disappear after acquiring Hashi's power. It was never to kill him he never once said he fought him to kill him. It serves his plan to disappear he even says "the world believes Uchiha Madara lost to Hashirama bur what's the real truth?" Anyway when he says believes he's dismissing it as not being factual especially when he says what's the actual truth further emphasising it.

As for hunting Madara why do you keep putting it down to anyone? We're discussing a nation with a vast amount of soldiers and clans at their disposal. Madara didn't go around threatening nations he said the relationship would be one of obedience to Konoha. That may make Iwa detest him but that has no bearing on it. Konoha on the other hand is the issue I've already said it and won't repeat it.

Even in the scenario they did hunt them down, it’s madara dude.... madara. Without hashi around no one could stop him, we know madara can take an army, we’re talking one village, as any other villages probably wouldn’t have given a shit at the time.
Madara can take an army yes but as a human being he has character limits especially with EMS. And at that time so what if he could fight a 24 hour battle eventually people slip up. Hashirama stopping him only means that there wouldn't be major casualties.

At best we can confirm he didn’t HAVE to beat hashi anymore to achieve what he wanted now, but everything else, even their encounter as Edos, suggests he still considered hashi the only one who could fight or beat him. If he wasn’t sure he could kill hashi and get him out of the way, disappearing is probably the best bet
I agree killing Hashi wasn't necessary for the plan, as for the encounter as an Edo. He only considered Hashirama a worthy opponent, most of the time he spent taunting the new gen for not being at a worthy level. Killing Hashi wasn't a problem even he went off and died in a war between nations, the plan served a greater purpose and it wasn't because he couldn't kill Hashi.

I don't think we'll agree on this point either way I'm done repeating myself.
 

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Again you missed the point Madara's plan was to disappear after acquiring Hashi's power. It was never to kill him he never once said he fought him to kill him. It serves his plan to disappear he even says "the world believes Uchiha Madara lost to Hashirama bur what's the real truth?" Anyway when he says believes he's dismissing it as not being factual especially when he says what's the actual truth further emphasising it.

As for hunting Madara why do you keep putting it down to anyone? We're discussing a nation with a vast amount of soldiers and clans at their disposal. Madara didn't go around threatening nations he said the relationship would be one of obedience to Konoha. That may make Iwa detest him but that has no bearing on it. Konoha on the other hand is the issue I've already said it and won't repeat it.



Madara can take an army yes but as a human being he has character limits especially with EMS. And at that time so what if he could fight a 24 hour battle eventually people slip up. Hashirama stopping him only means that there wouldn't be major casualties.



I agree killing Hashi wasn't necessary for the plan, as for the encounter as an Edo. He only considered Hashirama a worthy opponent, most of the time he spent taunting the new gen for not being at a worthy level. Killing Hashi wasn't a problem even he went off and died in a war between nations, the plan served a greater purpose and it wasn't because he couldn't kill Hashi.

I don't think we'll agree on this point either way I'm done repeating myself.
...do you believe Madara is retarded? What would've happened had his body and Sharingan been completely destroyed while he was playing dead?

Now that i think about it...didn't Hashirama wreck him so bad that not even Izanagi healed his battle wounds. or was a 'delayed Izanagi' to reject death an a$$pull? wouldn't Izanagi have to be active before an event in order to rewrite it?
 
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salamander uchiha

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two questions...do you believe Madara is retarded? What would've happened had his body and Sharingan been completely destroyed while he was playing dead?
The same could be said about him actually being dead, which would have the same effect. If anything that would make him stupid or retarded outright. Anyway I have no doubt he had foreseen what would happen or had a contingency in place for such a happening. Since the situation never arose it was never necessary or shown.
 

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Or you could save your time and read the manga, or remember what happened....

Odd nobody thinks madara NEEDED the plan because he COULDNT beat hashi. it’s not like they had fought a bunch of times before and madara had gotten be... oh wait...
Or you should use a brain because it was predestined for Madara to lose the plan. Kishi himself said he never expected the manga to be that long, and had to come up with the story and plan and whatever later in the game, after that fight was already resolved. Just read what I've written in the beginning...Or..nah, you obviously don't have time and it's too late to read more than 1 paragraph or a thread title;)
 

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Madara was never defeated by hashirama until he was out of chakra with or without kyubi. People make it out like hashirama neg diffs him. Madara only lost because of less chakra levels compared to hashirama. Every time he was outlasted. EMS madara fought against entire senju clan and his back touched the ground when he no longer had any chakra left. Kurama filled that gap in chakra, that's why he nearly stalemated hashirama in VOTE. Without kyubi, he'd get outlasted again. Unless you give him some other chakra boost.
 

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Madara was never defeated by hashirama until he was out of chakra with or without kyubi. People make it out like hashirama neg diffs him. Madara only lost because of less chakra levels compared to hashirama. Every time he was outlasted. EMS madara fought against entire senju clan and his back touched the ground when he no longer had any chakra left. Kurama filled that gap in chakra, that's why he nearly stalemated hashirama in VOTE. Without kyubi, he'd get outlasted again. Unless you give him some other chakra boost.
This looks like you're suggesting Hashirama's chakra volume is equal to or more than Kurama + EMS Madara? Is this correct?
 

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"Could" is a hypothetical question.
Of course EMS Madara "could" beat SM Hashirama. He might take him by surprise or score a lucky hit, Hashirama might make a mistake, get a heart attack or whatever.

But excluding these possibilities, then I have to answer : yes, he could. I'm gonna explain, but let's start with Kurama + EMS Madara.

Of course, Madara was destined to lose that battle - because Hashirama was the first hokage, and the battle in the valley of end was supposed to be "a fight for the hokage title" (even though it later turned out that it wasn't for the hokage title). Back then, during the Konoha invasion, powerscaling was much different than later in the story. Hashirama and Tobirama were supposed to be at "full strength", with Minato being the strongest hokage of all times (hence why Sarutobi desperately tried to stop the third edo tensei, even though, no matter what, 3 vs 1 is still better than 4 vs 1 (counting Orochimaru)).

When Madara started to become "antagonist", he had to be very, very strong....But someone weak shouldn't have beaten him so easily, right? Anyway...Madara's worst mistake was going "head to head" with Kurama and Susanoo armor against that huge arse Shinsusenju buddha statue. If he actually pulled back (even though it takes a lot of chakra to control Kurama + use Perfect susanoo at once..) and shot a huge bijudama with susanoo sword at that buddha, we would have had an insta kill (Hashirama hasn't really shown us any space time ninjutsu to teleport something that huge away...or to escape himself).

So let's get to EMS Madara without Kurama vs Hashirama without plot. IF Madara's susanoo can fly (like Sasuke's and Kakashi's), then he could just use intelligence and flight to fly and "throw" susanoo blades at shinsuusenju. Hashirama's only way, in this case, is to somehow bring down that susanoo (with a long range attack, like "shooting" those shinsuusenju hands at susanoo) or to let Madara use up all his chakra. Provided that those things don't happen before Madara smashes shinsuusenju to pieces (that would take some minutes), then Madara would most likely win.

So again..yes, he COULD beat him.
Dude EMS Madara did use perfect Susano'o the first time they fought and his Susanoo was defeated by a Wood Golemn. He already tried fighting Hashirama without the Kyubi and lost why yawl act like this didn't happen.

The reason he tried using the kyubi was because he already knew his PS /EMS was not enough coz it already was solod by a wood golemn.

The only argument you can make perhaps is about the fact he never used his other ms techs. This just for the love of me doesn't make sense I mean does Kishi expect us to believe this guy did not have ms techs and that they wouldn't have worked on Hashirama?
 

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Dude EMS Madara did use perfect Susano'o the first time they fought and his Susanoo was defeated by a Wood Golemn. He already tried fighting Hashirama without the Kyubi and lost why yawl act like this didn't happen.

The reason he tried using the kyubi was because he already knew his PS /EMS was not enough coz it already was solod by a wood golemn.

The only argument you can make perhaps is about the fact he never used his other ms techs. This just for the love of me doesn't make sense I mean does Kishi expect us to believe this guy did not have ms techs and that they wouldn't have worked on Hashirama?
Considering he used Inzanagi without having Senju DNA one could argue that was his other MS tech.

Besides unless Madara could use Amaterasu what other techs did he have that could potentially stop Hashirama?

Tsukyomi would work: But the drawbacks are too much AND Hashirama could easily evade it.
Amaterasu could potentially be absorbed by wood dragons(Hashirama used many) or hashirama
Didnt have KA
didnt have Kamui


Other than perfect susanoo what can potentially compete with an Ashura incarnate?

susanoo is the ONLY ability that can offensively and defensively support Madara vs Hashirama. Everything else is either too risky, he didnt have it or lacks offense or defense.
 
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"Could" is a hypothetical question.
Of course EMS Madara "could" beat SM Hashirama. He might take him by surprise or score a lucky hit, Hashirama might make a mistake, get a heart attack or whatever.

But excluding these possibilities, then I have to answer : yes, he could. I'm gonna explain, but let's start with Kurama + EMS Madara.

Of course, Madara was destined to lose that battle - because Hashirama was the first hokage, and the battle in the valley of end was supposed to be "a fight for the hokage title" (even though it later turned out that it wasn't for the hokage title). Back then, during the Konoha invasion, powerscaling was much different than later in the story. Hashirama and Tobirama were supposed to be at "full strength", with Minato being the strongest hokage of all times (hence why Sarutobi desperately tried to stop the third edo tensei, even though, no matter what, 3 vs 1 is still better than 4 vs 1 (counting Orochimaru)).

When Madara started to become "antagonist", he had to be very, very strong....But someone weak shouldn't have beaten him so easily, right? Anyway...Madara's worst mistake was going "head to head" with Kurama and Susanoo armor against that huge arse Shinsusenju buddha statue. If he actually pulled back (even though it takes a lot of chakra to control Kurama + use Perfect susanoo at once..) and shot a huge bijudama with susanoo sword at that buddha, we would have had an insta kill (Hashirama hasn't really shown us any space time ninjutsu to teleport something that huge away...or to escape himself).

So let's get to EMS Madara without Kurama vs Hashirama without plot. IF Madara's susanoo can fly (like Sasuke's and Kakashi's), then he could just use intelligence and flight to fly and "throw" susanoo blades at shinsuusenju. Hashirama's only way, in this case, is to somehow bring down that susanoo (with a long range attack, like "shooting" those shinsuusenju hands at susanoo) or to let Madara use up all his chakra. Provided that those things don't happen before Madara smashes shinsuusenju to pieces (that would take some minutes), then Madara would most likely win.

So again..yes, he COULD beat him.

Nice Reach :elmo:

But no... Minato cant be summoned with edo tensei because he was dealed in the demon spirit through the jutsu, thats why sasuke had to go through so much trouble the second time around to get oro to summon the 4 dead kage the second time around...

someone weak?? are you implying hashi is weak? when he mid diffed madara with kyubii? :elmo:

also no, the bijuu bomb wouldnt instakill hashi... the buddah statue was huge, it would've tanked it with arms and pummeled the susanoo kyubii to the ground, madara is a fighting genius, he tried his best and got his ass beat because hashi doesnt play that shit
 
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