Could EMS madara beat Hashirama without Kyuubi?
- Thread starter Mellanoma
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InfiniteMugen
KING
regardless of whether or not madara meant to lose or if it was a plan if he lost, I don’t think he’d stand a real chance of winning without it
Klubargutan
Active member
"Could" is a hypothetical question.
Of course EMS Madara "could" beat SM Hashirama. He might take him by surprise or score a lucky hit, Hashirama might make a mistake, get a heart attack or whatever.
But excluding these possibilities, then I have to answer : yes, he could. I'm gonna explain, but let's start with Kurama + EMS Madara.
Of course, Madara was destined to lose that battle - because Hashirama was the first hokage, and the battle in the valley of end was supposed to be "a fight for the hokage title" (even though it later turned out that it wasn't for the hokage title). Back then, during the Konoha invasion, powerscaling was much different than later in the story. Hashirama and Tobirama were supposed to be at "full strength", with Minato being the strongest hokage of all times (hence why Sarutobi desperately tried to stop the third edo tensei, even though, no matter what, 3 vs 1 is still better than 4 vs 1 (counting Orochimaru)).
When Madara started to become "antagonist", he had to be very, very strong....But someone weak shouldn't have beaten him so easily, right? Anyway...Madara's worst mistake was going "head to head" with Kurama and Susanoo armor against that huge arse Shinsusenju buddha statue. If he actually pulled back (even though it takes a lot of chakra to control Kurama + use Perfect susanoo at once..) and shot a huge bijudama with susanoo sword at that buddha, we would have had an insta kill (Hashirama hasn't really shown us any space time ninjutsu to teleport something that huge away...or to escape himself).
So let's get to EMS Madara without Kurama vs Hashirama without plot. IF Madara's susanoo can fly (like Sasuke's and Kakashi's), then he could just use intelligence and flight to fly and "throw" susanoo blades at shinsuusenju. Hashirama's only way, in this case, is to somehow bring down that susanoo (with a long range attack, like "shooting" those shinsuusenju hands at susanoo) or to let Madara use up all his chakra. Provided that those things don't happen before Madara smashes shinsuusenju to pieces (that would take some minutes), then Madara would most likely win.
So again..yes, he COULD beat him.
Of course EMS Madara "could" beat SM Hashirama. He might take him by surprise or score a lucky hit, Hashirama might make a mistake, get a heart attack or whatever.
But excluding these possibilities, then I have to answer : yes, he could. I'm gonna explain, but let's start with Kurama + EMS Madara.
Of course, Madara was destined to lose that battle - because Hashirama was the first hokage, and the battle in the valley of end was supposed to be "a fight for the hokage title" (even though it later turned out that it wasn't for the hokage title). Back then, during the Konoha invasion, powerscaling was much different than later in the story. Hashirama and Tobirama were supposed to be at "full strength", with Minato being the strongest hokage of all times (hence why Sarutobi desperately tried to stop the third edo tensei, even though, no matter what, 3 vs 1 is still better than 4 vs 1 (counting Orochimaru)).
When Madara started to become "antagonist", he had to be very, very strong....But someone weak shouldn't have beaten him so easily, right? Anyway...Madara's worst mistake was going "head to head" with Kurama and Susanoo armor against that huge arse Shinsusenju buddha statue. If he actually pulled back (even though it takes a lot of chakra to control Kurama + use Perfect susanoo at once..) and shot a huge bijudama with susanoo sword at that buddha, we would have had an insta kill (Hashirama hasn't really shown us any space time ninjutsu to teleport something that huge away...or to escape himself).
So let's get to EMS Madara without Kurama vs Hashirama without plot. IF Madara's susanoo can fly (like Sasuke's and Kakashi's), then he could just use intelligence and flight to fly and "throw" susanoo blades at shinsuusenju. Hashirama's only way, in this case, is to somehow bring down that susanoo (with a long range attack, like "shooting" those shinsuusenju hands at susanoo) or to let Madara use up all his chakra. Provided that those things don't happen before Madara smashes shinsuusenju to pieces (that would take some minutes), then Madara would most likely win.
So again..yes, he COULD beat him.
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He couldn't beat Hashirama with it, let alone without it.
And I know its coming, but no, him having to waste chakra to control the Kyuubi is not a big enough downside to having the strongest Bijuu fighting alongside him by the simple fact that if it was, there would be no point for him to even bring a demon fox to a ninja fight in the first place, now would it?
And I know its coming, but no, him having to waste chakra to control the Kyuubi is not a big enough downside to having the strongest Bijuu fighting alongside him by the simple fact that if it was, there would be no point for him to even bring a demon fox to a ninja fight in the first place, now would it?
Klubargutan
Active member
Fodder opinions. Use enough brainpower and you can easily come up with a strategy as Madara to beat Hashirama.
salamander uchiha
Active member
Yes of that there's no doubt, any loss was a planned loss.
Anyway Guntah knows it already, maintaining a summoning takes constant chakra, controlling takes constant chakra and focus, directing takes constant chakra, focusing on your enemy and constantly adjusting, using your own jutsu simultaneously takes chakra and concentration. Madara was doing all of this simultaneously in his battle agaianst Hashirama. It's like Madara inflicted self nerf during that battle just to let Hashirama think he won or had killed him. Madara even had a contingency in place for such a scenario he planned everything down to the last detail.
Anyway Guntah knows it already, maintaining a summoning takes constant chakra, controlling takes constant chakra and focus, directing takes constant chakra, focusing on your enemy and constantly adjusting, using your own jutsu simultaneously takes chakra and concentration. Madara was doing all of this simultaneously in his battle agaianst Hashirama. It's like Madara inflicted self nerf during that battle just to let Hashirama think he won or had killed him. Madara even had a contingency in place for such a scenario he planned everything down to the last detail.
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InfiniteMugen
KING
Or you could save your time and read the manga, or remember what happened....
Odd nobody thinks madara NEEDED the plan because he COULDNT beat hashi. it’s not like they had fought a bunch of times before and madara had gotten be... oh wait...
ninjarasengan
Active member
contingency plan- a course of action to be followed if a preferred plan fails or an existing situation changes.
Deep in his heart Madara knew:bdpf:
salamander uchiha
Active member
Knew what? That he inteded to get Hashirama's flesh and disappear into the shadows. It was a well thought out and executed plan from the get go, let the world believe you're dead so you can operate in secret.
I think izanagi WAS his contingency plan. Wouldn’t it have been way easier to just stay alive and win AND take Hashiramas dna AND awaken the rinnegan?
Edit: lol I use caps for emphasis so much. I feel like a hyped up josh nichols
salamander uchiha
Active member
No not really, if he killed Hashirama and was still out there he'd be a threat and potentially hunted. He couldn't operate in secret and would never have the luxury of attempting to bring his plans to fruition. However as a dead man it's easier as the world's attention is elsewhere.
Master Omi
Member
HowDidIGetPrem
Active member
Awards
Unlikely, though I am interested in how he destroyed Hashirama's statue after Kurama was subdued.
King Of Pop
Active member
I mean even with kurama he still lost so why would he stand a chance without it? All you have to do is read the manga. If you can properly do that without having madaras jock in your mouth then you will obviously come to the conclusion that madara doesn't stand a chance without kurama. As we saw in their Edo tensei battle, he can't even still take out hashirama when the latter is not using the buddha whereas madara used PS which is Ems madara full power. Common sense also tells you that if he can beat hashirama without kurama then he wouldn't need it in the first place now would he? and even with that he still lost.
So the manga has answered your question on two occasions
So the manga has answered your question on two occasions
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No Uchiha would be able to beat Hashirama except for Obito and that’s questionable considering he has Hashirama’s dna attaches to him which prevented the MS effects from kicking his ass.
Also it’s as Salamander said.
Also it’s as Salamander said.