can minato dodge amaterasu
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You lose. One does not just spawn Ameterasu in midair right infront of Raikage, then say, well no it's not a projectile, it manifested on Raikages shoulder... But then he dodged it? Dodging means he physically moved out the way of it. How can he move out of the way of something spawning on him?
Dodging; present participle of dodge (Verb)
1.Avoid (someone or something) by a sudden quick movement: "we ducked inside our doorway to dodge shrapnel that was raining down".
2.Move quickly to one side or out of the way: "Adam dodged between the cars".
That's the definition of dodging. Now continue to justify Raikage dodging something that manifests on his shoulder. Go on, I dare you. *_*
I'm well aware of what "dodging" means.
Did you even read my explanation properly? This isn't a matter of point of view, this is how amaterasu clearly works:
It spawns at the focal point of the sharingan user, then moves only if it hasn't stuck to something.
Look at the panel of Itachi using amaterasu again.
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No fire coming out of his eye (if it was purely a projectile it would originate from his eye), and fire is spawning at a central point that is moving in synch with Itachi's focal point.
In the same panel we also have an example of amaterasu acting as a projectile only after it manifests at its point of origin. Now guess where that point of origin is...no it's not Itachi's eye...It's his focal point!
Sasuke spawned the amaterasu as his eye was out of focus. The amaterasu appeared a short distance in front of Raiakge, then moved towards him. Only because of Sasuke's misfocus was Raikage able to avoid it.
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UltimateDeadpool
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Sasuke can dodge Amaterasu, so of course Minato can.
For the debate, Amaterasu is a fireball. If it appears instantly, i.e. ignites on your shirt or whatever, then it's impossible to avoid it. Sasuke, Ei, and Gyuuki wouldn't had been able to react to it.
If Sasuke avoided the gaze of the Sharingan, which doesn't seem like a legit argument anyway because of it's enhanced perception, then it would had ignited whatever Itachi's gaze shifted to behind Sasuke and that would had been ignited... it didn't; it was a fireball that Itachi started making chase Sasuke. It then had enough momentum and force to knock Sasuke down.
The same story with Ei. If Ei had simply avoided Sasuke's gaze, then the samurai behind Ei would had been ingited... he wasn't, he was struck with a fireball that had enough momentum and force to knock him down.
Sasuke was going to set Gyuuki's head on fire with Amaterasu, but Gyuuki was able to move his arm into the way to block it. If Amaterasu instantly appears where Sasuke is looking, then it would had instantly been on Gyuuki's head, he couldn't had stopped it.
Even when Itachi first used Amaterasu off-panel to escape Jiraiya's Toad Stomach, we heard a "boom!" which suggests a force and impact, if it just sparks where the user is looking like an ant in a magnifying glass then we would had heard a "fwoosh!"
It's also stupid for there to be a jutsu like that wielded by anyone, it would be too powerful for someone to just look at something and then it combusts in an inextinguishable flame. That's an instant win 100% of the time, which means it's impossible to get more powerful than that, yet the powerscales keep escalating. Even Naruto when he got SM was stated to be MS Sasuke's equal, that doesn't make sense if Sasuke just had to look at Naruto and he'd be incinerated on the spot. Even now, Sasuke could just kill KCM Naruto just by looking at him; there is no competition. Let's us also not forget that Amaterasu comes from Sharingan, which is only a portion of Rikudou's power. Am I to actually believe that Itachi/Sasuke could one-shot a full Rikudou like Madara? Hell, if that's the case, then why does Sasuke need Orochimaru, the Hokages, Team Hebi, the Alliance, or even his former Team Mates? He could one-shot Madara himself with Amaterasu.
For the debate, Amaterasu is a fireball. If it appears instantly, i.e. ignites on your shirt or whatever, then it's impossible to avoid it. Sasuke, Ei, and Gyuuki wouldn't had been able to react to it.
If Sasuke avoided the gaze of the Sharingan, which doesn't seem like a legit argument anyway because of it's enhanced perception, then it would had ignited whatever Itachi's gaze shifted to behind Sasuke and that would had been ignited... it didn't; it was a fireball that Itachi started making chase Sasuke. It then had enough momentum and force to knock Sasuke down.
The same story with Ei. If Ei had simply avoided Sasuke's gaze, then the samurai behind Ei would had been ingited... he wasn't, he was struck with a fireball that had enough momentum and force to knock him down.
Sasuke was going to set Gyuuki's head on fire with Amaterasu, but Gyuuki was able to move his arm into the way to block it. If Amaterasu instantly appears where Sasuke is looking, then it would had instantly been on Gyuuki's head, he couldn't had stopped it.
Even when Itachi first used Amaterasu off-panel to escape Jiraiya's Toad Stomach, we heard a "boom!" which suggests a force and impact, if it just sparks where the user is looking like an ant in a magnifying glass then we would had heard a "fwoosh!"
It's also stupid for there to be a jutsu like that wielded by anyone, it would be too powerful for someone to just look at something and then it combusts in an inextinguishable flame. That's an instant win 100% of the time, which means it's impossible to get more powerful than that, yet the powerscales keep escalating. Even Naruto when he got SM was stated to be MS Sasuke's equal, that doesn't make sense if Sasuke just had to look at Naruto and he'd be incinerated on the spot. Even now, Sasuke could just kill KCM Naruto just by looking at him; there is no competition. Let's us also not forget that Amaterasu comes from Sharingan, which is only a portion of Rikudou's power. Am I to actually believe that Itachi/Sasuke could one-shot a full Rikudou like Madara? Hell, if that's the case, then why does Sasuke need Orochimaru, the Hokages, Team Hebi, the Alliance, or even his former Team Mates? He could one-shot Madara himself with Amaterasu.
Right:
1: Hachibi
Eye Focus -
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Spawning on the exact point -
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2: Danzo
Eye Focus -
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Spawning on the exact point -
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3: Nagato
Eye Focus -
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Spawning on the exact point -
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5: Nagato's Summons
Eye Focus -
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Spawning on the exact point -
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What is there to discuss? All of these scans validate the 'Spawning statement.' You are just wrong. Admit it. The manga has stated so and illustrated so. Stop with this pointless back-paddling.
There's overwhelming manga evidence that it spawns at the focal point. Where is the evidence that it fires out of the eye as a projectile? There is none.
Yes, it's overpowered. But we're going by the manga facts here.
Itachi's vision was severely impaired.
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The fire located the focal point was small, and behind it, it was gradually getting bigger. This is completely in line with the "spawns at focal point" position.
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Madara can just shinra tensei it away
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UltimateDeadpool
Active member
The evidence is actually in the favor of my argument. There are few instances where Amaterasu has been used against protagonists, which means there are few instances where it has been shown failing. Sasuke, Ei, and Gyuuki are three notable examples; it was a projectile against all three.
It actually isn't overpowered, because Kishimoto has flat-out said that it isn't through statements and powerscaling.
Yet Itachi's vision was good enough to hit Sasuke's shurikens with his own.
So you're trying to say that Itachi used a half dozen Amaterasus trying to hit Sasuke? If so, you'll see that Sasuke dodged them repeatedly, and that there are "tails" behind them showing that they were fireballs shooting from Itachi's eye.
Amaterasu, if it's what you believe it is, can't "miss" anyone. It's instant. The fact that it has been shown to miss people is proof that it isn't instant, it is in fact a fireball.
I suppose then the argument of how fast Amaterasu burns comes into question. But then, you think Amaterasu beats Hashirama? The God of Shinobi?
That first one proves you wrong. If it appeared where Sasuke was looking, Gyuuki's face, then why was Gyuuki able to move his arm in the way?
There are also tons of instances in the manga where jutsus are not shown moving inch by inch, it's used and we see the results of it; whether they are successful or unsuccssful. Aside from Gyuuki, you haven't shown the instances where it's unsuccessful: Sasuke and Ei.
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thesurvivor
Active member
Actually, it proves you wrong, if anything. The point of focus doesn't have anything to do with any feature. It's just a point in space. That point was occupied by the tentacle and it was engulfed instead. You have three other examples proving this. If you believe that point of focus is linked to a feature, then you are interpreting this whole thing wrong. If I mark a paper with a point and put my finger on it and then replace it with a pen, what difference would it make? Has the point changed? No. Only the object is replaced.
There is not a single scan in the entire manga where Amaterasu is shown as a projectile, spurting from the eye. Not a SINGLE scan. This alone is a solid ground for complete disproof.
I'm sorry, but you're completely wrong. Every single instance of amaterasu being used shows it emanating at a point, then proceeding to act as a projectile if it hasn't hit a target.
As C said: "Amaterasu ignites what he's looking at!"
Regarding Gyuuki:
Look at the 3rd and 4th panels carefully. The 3rd panel shows Gyuuki's left shoulder/chest bare. But the 4th panel shos Gyuuki raising his tentacle before the amaterasu appears. Completely congruent with an instantly spawning amaterasu.
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Are you seriously contesting the fact that Itachi's vision was screwed up? Seriously? I shouldn't have to labor the point. If you think Itachi's eyesight was fine, look...at...the panel again...right at the bottom, in the middle.
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Sasuke didn't dodge them, he was just running outside of Itachi's focal point. You can see that Sasuke began moving before Itachi cast Amaterasu. He anticipated something (probably the pressure that Nagato spoke of) and began moving proactively. Look at this panel:
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As I said, it appears at the focal point then acts as a projectile if it hasn't hit a target. Examination of all evidence in the manga points to this conclusion.
If Hashirama ever got into a situation where Sasuke activated Amaterasu on his body there's no dodging it. But the 'God of Shinobi' should be able to deal with it with some kind of PNJ.
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So you're disregarding manga proof from UltimateDeadpool? He provided perfect examples of how you can tell if it's a projectile. Hachibi literally blocked ameterasu! At that statement, you lose your whole argument! You can't block something that isn't even traveling! Sasuke can't make ameterasu appear in random space, otherwise what's to stop a fan boy from saying his ameterasu goes through multiple dimensions? You have no argument against Hachibi blocking ameterasu.
Then there's the fact that Itachi was following sasuke with it. We're going to go with the same impossible logic that says things can appear in midair without teleportation. If you think about it, how many things do that? Let's count:
1.Hm... Nothing...!
Now, I want you to be a test subject for me. Try to aim your eye at random space,without any solid or liquid behind it(Gases won't matter, they're physically invisible). Go on, try. Right now you're realizing it's not possible to aim at something that isn't there.
The best logic I've seen from this counter-argument is, it spawns in random space, then turns into a projectile.
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Yes he did... look:
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He blocked Sasuke's line of sight...look at the last panel, he raised his left tentacle in anticipation.
You never see amaterasu come out of the user's eye. Ever ever, ever ever....in the manga or the anime.
Never....
What you do see however, are countless examples of amaterasu being cast, and then appearing at some distance from the caster...every time
In the examples of amaterasu beng cast while out of focus, it moves until it hits a target.
Yes, it is a fact. Itachi was chasing Sasuke with the focal point of his eye.
Do you even know what focal point means?, I'm sorry but I'm really starting to doubt you do.
Why exactly is it "impossible logic"? Kamui acts inexactly the same way...it acts on the focal point of the user the moment kamui is activated. No Kamui projectile is shot out of Kakahi's eye.
The difference is amatearsu acts as a projectile only if it hasn't hit an attachable object. Why is this so hard to grasp? All manga evidence points to it, all anime evidence points to it. It's the logical conclusion. Are you just arguing for the sake of arguing?
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This whole argument lost by the fact you said Kamui acts in the same way. Kamui is teleportation! If you can't understand that concept, your entire argument is flawed.
So you're saying every time Sasuke got out of his focal point, he shot another, creating that rapid effect of ameterasu.
Very far fetched my good man, very.
Plus you completely disregarded the whole bit about spawning things in mid air, besides your flop in saying Kamui does it. Better argument next time bro.
No...no...you're compeltely missing the point.
The fact that kamui teleports doesn't change anything.
It's all about the nature of how Kamui and amaterasu spawn.
Kamui acts on the focal point of the user. The focal point.
With kamui the teleportation point appears in the exact direction and focus that Kakashi's eye is trained on.
With amaterasu, the amaterasu appears in the exact direction and focus that Itachi/Sasuke's eye is trained on.
Kamui acts to teleport, Amaterasu acts to spawn a portion of black flame that attaches to an object. If amaterasu spawns in mid-air (because the focal point was out of focus with an object), it then moves in its spawned direction with regard to the caster at the point in time at which it was cast.
Seriously, you're completely wrong, just slowly read the panels until it clicks. It should eventually.
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So you're further going with Ameterasu can manifest in mid air. You're the only one arguing this silly opinion. It's manga fact that nothing can come spawn in mid air without teleportation. Kamui requires teleportation, so that renders more than half your argument, invalid. Ameterasu doesn't not teleport. So then after we clear all that up, the basic content of your argument is, if it misses its target, it travels to a spot behind them or to another random plot in space.
What do projectiles do again? Oh yeah, travel. Wait, what don't manifested things do? Oh yeah, travel. Your argument is looking weaker by the second.
The argument still stands, that your eye can't focus on random space. Missing his target or not, how can his focal point be set on something that is invisible to the naked eye(gas).
And now a few words from birdman:
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Look...I'm getting tired of you not understanding this.
Kamui acts on a target to teleport it. Kakashi looks at the target, activates Kamui...and what happens?
A teleportation point manifests itself instantly at the focal point of the user. Get it?
Understand the parallel between that and amaterasu?
Regarding this "your eye can't focus on thin air/random" crap:
Of course it can! Do you even understand how the eye works?
The lens re-adjusts to focus for either close or distant objects. We have clear examples in the manga of Itachi and Sasuke having trouble with this. Lets take the Sasuke vs Raikage example. Raikage was probably, lets say 10m away from Sasuke, but Sasuke's lens lacked the neceassry co-ordination to focus at the moment of casting amaterasu and was really focussing in on at a distance of 9m. The amaterasu appeared 1m in front of Raikage, then began to move towards him. Raikage reacted to seeing this ball of blame flame appear in front of him, and moved before it hit him.
Think about, in all the countless examples of amaterasu, you never ever see it come of the eye EVER.
Why can't a manifested object travel? It's simply a property of how amaterasu behaves.
And to reiterate, I'll say it again:
Amaterasu acts to spawn a portion of black flame that attaches to an object. If amaterasu spawns in mid-air (because the focal point was out of focus with an object), it then moves in its spawned direction with regard to the caster at the point in time at which it was cast. Not a "random spot in space"
All manga/anime evidence points to this conclusion. If the manga isn't conclusive enough for you, go watch Sasuke vs Raiakge fight. Watch the moment Sasuke uses amaterasu for the first time at A. You see it instantly start burning a short distance in front of raikage. No shred of evidence that it travels out of his eye.
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You lost when you stated the following things. I'm not even going to humor you by reading the entirety of this post.
Your eye's lens focuses on objects. Not the air. If you stare at a towel for 5 minutes. It'll go in and out of focus, yet you're still staring at it. Lets say you shoot it with ameterasu, is the ameterasu going to stop right before it, then travel the rest of the distance? Come on now, be realistic.
You just went against your own statement.
To
Mid air is a random spot in space! Ameterasu can't manifest in a random allotment of space! It travels from the eye to the victim. Which is the only way to explain dodging, blocking, or even simply missing with it. If ameterasu manifests on your chest, the sole spot for it to exist in space is on your chest and the surrounding area. If you move, it still fills that same space on your chest. That is fact. You can't go against manga fact and say things can spawn in random space, when there's never been any account of such a thing ever happening in Naruto. EVER
Birdman
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The muscles of the eye simply focus incoming light corresponding to a certain distance. If the co-ordination of the muscles controlling lens focus are screwed, an object will be blurry - I.e you're actually focusing short of the object.
As I said, amaterasu spawns according to the direction and distance(focus) of the eye. Whether an object happens to be at the point is irrelevant. Honeslty, what do you think would happen if Kakashi decided to shoot off a random kamui into the sky?
There's a difference between a "random spot" in space and a point that a screwed up eye happens to be focusing on.
Wrong, the sole spot for it to exist is at the focal point of the caster. I know you don't want to accept the fact that someone's focus can be short, but it's just the fact of the matter.
Ok...now think about this carefully:
If amaterasu is shot out the eye, why would Raikage wait until the very last moment to move, inches in front of his chest?
Who said ameterasu was slow?
Your focus can't be short. You can focus on something that's closer than another, but your eye can't focus on nothing. If you stare at a wall, your eye isn't focused on that gas in front of the wall. It's focused on the wall. Whether blurry or not.
Going to sleep. You can respond, but I won't answer for like 12 hours. As Birdman would say, BIRDMAN BIRDMAN!
Birdman
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Raikage reacted only when the flame was right in front of him.
Yes your eye's focus can. Your eye has no regard for objects. Only your brain does. The eye only knows focus in, focus out. Amaterasu is a jutsu of the eye. It forms a point from which black flames emanate, according to the direction of the gaze, and at the distance that the eye is focusing. After the inital spawning of these black flames it proceeds to move forward and stick to something - this contradicts nothing in the manga, even if it doesn't seem right to you.
I'm sorry, but I have to link this one more time. This page alone is an adequate explanation of how amaterasu works.
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We have at the top, an example of amaterasu acting as a projectile. Completely fine. This is what it does when it spawns without attaching to an object/attachable medium.
In the middle-left and bottom-right panels we see amaterasu's black flames emanating from Itachi's focal point, then (2 pages along) proceeding to move as projectile flames into forest below.
I want you to especially stare at the bottom right panel. What you're looking at is Itachi's focal point/the point at which amaterasu's flames expand. It is moving in synch with Itachi's eye focus and direction.
If you refuse to acknowledge this you're denying clear, self explanatory manga panels.
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