Ero sennin jiraiya
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Definitely sharingan. Unless we are talking about 3 tamoe vs byakugan in which case I'd say byakugan. But MS and above sharingan is a lot more powerful than a byakugan
Byakugan VS Sharingan
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FearxDeath
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I am going to make this brief, am not going to elaborate on every single thing i say. Everything you just said has already been said either in my previous posts to you or in the main thread. I recommend you re-read then fully rather than just skimming through and making your own opinions.
1) You dont train yourself to see things, a person with 15/15 vision cannot train himself to see in 20/20. Sharingan users cannot see the inner coils, if they could then they would be able to easily use the gentle fist fighting style. The fighting style only requires chakra control and is easy to learn as both hinata and neji learned it while they were still gennin.
2) Read the main thread, I already said how genjutsu would not work against byakugan users and how jutsu's can be predicted and thus dodged by the byakugan user rendering both moot. That brings it down to a Taijutsu battle between the byakugan user and the sharingan user and as I said in the main thread, taijutsu is the byakuagn users specialty.
Before you critic, please read all other posts and the main thread fully so you understand my point as it is annoying to repeat what I have already said to each specific person I argue with, kind of defeats the purpose of making the informative thread. Sorry it I sound like a douche x__x no offense intended.
What are you trying to say here? Sharingen sees movements, and since gentle fist can't be perform without the fist movement, how on earth does it best Sharingen far-superior insight into enemy movements? Sharingen will simply see all the movements and allow the use to react according.
FearxDeath
Active member
The statement was made that the Sharingan can see the chakra network just as good as the Byakugan. I then said if that was true we would see Sharingan users that used the Gentle Fist Technique as Sharingan users can learn any technique just by watching it performed. Case and point Kakashi's 1000 jutsu's.
The last point I made was that the ability to copy techniques isnt an advantage against the Byakugan because all he uses is taijutsu and jutsu's that are unique to them that cannot simply be copied. Yes, the sharingan user still has the jutsu that he may already know but I already cover that in the main thread.
^ I never made any point regarding Sharingan's ability to copy techniques, but ventured that gentle fist is useless against Sharingen as it enables the user to react against high speed attacks as exhibited by Tobi/Obito as soon as he got Sharingen. His reflexes improves exponentially. That was all I was trying to say.
FearxDeath
Active member
I realize that, if you noticed the post I qouted in the post your reffering to was Dante~'s. Above that post was the response I gave to you. x__x.
In regards to that I would bring up Sasuke's fight against Rock Lee, remember how he got stomped with Rock Lee saying it doesnt matter if your eyes can see me, if your body cant keep up its useless. And then proceeds in stomping Sasuke.
With that same token the Sharingan only lets the Sharingan user see the attacks coming, being able to dodge them and beat the opponents taijutsu is a completely different matter.
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FearxDeath
Active member
First off you say that he was still getting used to the sharingans abilities... He had 3T back when he beat Naruto and became a rogue ninja... In all that time naruto mastered the wind rasengan and sage mode while sasuke still couldn't become accustomed to his Sharingan abilities.
Looking at the Sasuke v Bee scans as we speak... Does he dodge bee's V1 before or after he gets beat up by bee and stabbed a bunch of times needing help from the rest of hebi just to keep up.
Btw I hope this isnt what you mean by him "dodging" killer bee's V1, clearly Bee wasnt even moving at a high speed and they were both in the air, not to mention Bee says he deflected the attack and didnt dodge it.
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The fact of the matter is the only reason they even survived that fight was because Bee let them, he let them take his clone while the Raikages gaurds were watching and with them thinking Bee had been kidnapped he was free to roam around. Prior to that A, the raikage, had ordered him not to leave. So much for that sharingan...
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Now on to the fight between him and the Raikage
Dodged Effortlessly
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WAIT A MINUTE.. READ THIS SCAN RIGHT HERE KARIN SAYS "Raikage is impossibly fast, But this way sasuke is protected even if he cant follow the raikages movements"
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Thanks for prompting me to check those scans as they really helped me build my case. There are many occasions where the Sharingans "Predicting Movements" have failed or come short. And these scans are proof.
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I won't bring Bee's battle into debate. The scan you posted was when he put his under genjutsu and thought he did the job and he turned away. He doesn't have eyes on the back of his head. so that point is moot and pointless. That scan shows Bee at V1 and he even asserts that no one has dodged it other than his brother.
Your second point is really strange. Do you even bother to read the manga? You are clearly grasping at straws now. Nice try. When one is grabbed, he should dodge? Sasuke dodged the attack and lodged his chodri attack into Raikage's chest. A Grabbed him and this is what happened. Byakugan is laughable in this department. You have been proven wrong, henceforth, end this shenanigan.
Your second point is really strange. Do you even bother to read the manga? You are clearly grasping at straws now. Nice try. When one is grabbed, he should dodge? Sasuke dodged the attack and lodged his chodri attack into Raikage's chest. A Grabbed him and this is what happened. Byakugan is laughable in this department. You have been proven wrong, henceforth, end this shenanigan.
FearxDeath
Active member
You sir are mistaken. Like I said he didnt dodge the attack, im not even sure how you can dodge an attack when both people are in the air, he deflected the attack which is a completely different thing. If your in the air and someone jumps at you, deflecting the attack isnt very hard. I dont see how that is your big proof that the Sharingan predicting abilities are great especially given that Sasuke caught 6 swords to the chest at point blank range from Bee and didnt see it coming.
The thing about the Sharingan is that you predict what someone is going to do as soon as the persons muscles tense up. As soon as the Raikage lunges forward to grab him then yes I expect him to dodge or move or do anything a sensible person would do to avoid the grab. And no sasuke didnt dodge his first attack, the attack was a bluff allowing the Raikage to get close to sasuke, he let sasuke hit him assuming he wouldnt get past his raiton shroud and then went for the liager bomb. This is backed up by the fact that Raikage was surprised by sasukes chidori blade actually scratching him and by shi saying no one has ever escaped raikages liager bomb, which is ofcourse his strongest move.
How have I been proven wrong? Elaborate?
I guess he predicted this too, or maybe you cant dodge swords flying at your body?
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FearxDeath
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Cannot edit the main thread for some reason, perhaps this thread has run its course?
First off lets consider one thing, there are only 4 living people who has mastered the Sharingan, and 2 of those people have hashirama cells in them so you can argue that they are strong not because of there Sharingan but because of the 1st hokages cells.
I wont go into Madara but look at obito who was just some kid that wasnt even a chunnin, he gets his 2T Sharingan and gets crushed by a rock losing half his body. He is revived and is implanted with Hashirama cells and a few years later he goes toe to toe with the 3rd hokage? The fastest man alive who killed an entire army by himself? The firsts cells had to have played a huge role here.
So lets move on to the untainted uchiha and judge there sharingan.
Itachi - Died, he was killed by his brother, lost a fight to kakashi and some others(also note that he had kisame with him).
Sasuke - Loses almost every fight he is in, Barely beats orochimaru who cant even use jutsu's and loses to killer bee(4v1 might I add) who let him survive, lost at the 5 kage summit only to be saved by Tobi.
The Sharingan although in theory is claimed to be extremely strong, we constantly see it being beaten with excuse after excuse being given for why it lost. The ultimate eye jutsu that copies all jutsu, see's chakra, predicts movement, summons an unbeatable susano, has the ultimate genjutsu and amaterasu... Why is this ultimate doujutsu always at the losing end of battles? Perhaps we are overestimating its capabilities.
The only people who seem to be stong with this technique are people with hashirama cells and seemingly unlimited chakra.
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BigBlade Master
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FearxDeath
Active member
I disagree, for one reason. Naruto, Rock Lee, Ten Ten, Sakura, all of the main AND sub characters have made considerable progress through out the series and yet during Part2 the only sub character we know to have made it to jounin level is "Neji Hyuga", who has been refered to as a genuis several times throughout the manga, similar to itachi.
Now let us also consider some other jounin in konoha there is kakashi, Gai, asuma, and even Dan, no one who has made it to jounin level has been a push over, and for neji to make it there so fast only shows his strength. As to whether he could take on an OP susano idk, but as to whether he could take on an Uchiha without Susano, I would think so.
Unorthodox
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FearxDeath
Active member
After reading what I had bolded you became discredited to me atleast and I stopped right there... Fruit of a poisenous tree my friend, if one part of what you say is complete horsesh-t then I am going to hold your entire paragraph long reply accountable, including the part where you show me my own scan as if you got it from somewhere else.
FatalChakra
Member
FearxDeath
Active member
Wow havent seen this in a while, + rep if you still think Byakugan powns he sharingan 
Honestly, I consider the Byakugan vastly superior - and there are a few reasons why.
1:
Nothing. And I do mean nothing, is more important in war or special operations. The Byakugan, in this regard, provides superior situational awareness under all conditions. While the ranges seem to vary from individual to individual and may be a reflection of training focus... Neji has a range of some 800 meters with his Byakugan by Part II and Hinata is stated to have an -insane- 10 kilometers.
Just have a squad of Genin and there's a whole platoon of enemies? Who needs Susano'o when you can report enemy location, numbers, identify notable blood lines, and your Genin squad out of harm's way? You can keep your people out of danger by providing a sphere of situational awareness that real world armies would sign contracts with the devil to have (ground recon is difficult and often directed by indicators from aerial recon assets).
This is what makes the Byakguan so potent. You can completely nullify the toughest defenses and thwart the mightiest offenses by gathering detailed information that would require combat attrition to obtain, classically. Defenses can be circumvented, weaknesses in watch rotations and layouts can be exploited in ways that would normally require inside informants....
The Byakguan is an OpSec (operational security) nightmare. You can't hide anything from them short of being out of range... and let's face it - Neji's Part I range of something between 50 and 100 meters would be a challenge to design watch security that he couldn't wiggle through (which likely represents the 'fodder Hyuga' Byakugan abilities). By Part II - he has 800 meters, which is realistically impossible to defend against (he can probably sit just outside your operating base and see anything/everything within that he wants to) - and likely represents adept Hyuga (such as those in service with the ANBU). Hinata, being a freak of nature - has 10 kilometers. She's able to run recon on your entire army (if we're going with historic battlefield sizes like Gettysburg)... from inside her own command post. To put that into Naruto scale - she can stand in the middle of the Forest of Death and see anything/everything within it. That, my friends, is what we call: "Flawless Difficulty."
2:
Since there's no excuse for a Byakugan wielding adept to be at all surprised by an impending battle or the likely capabilities of the opponent(s) - combat is often an optional evolution. However, when one commits to doing so, they excel at taijutsu and can inflict damage on any target by turning their own chakra network against them.
Range would normally be an issue - but any Hyuga adept should have more than enough agility and endurance to identify long ranged threats and avoid them while also being able to see avenues of concealed and covered approach to get within effective range of their various capabilities. It should speak volumes, here, that the Hyuga do not utilize typical jutsu. This should not be interpreted to mean that they can't - but rather than their arts and Byakugan are regarded as -more effective- ways to handle opponents.
Now, some would argue that the fighting style and Byakugan are different... which is somewhat true. In that same sense - the Sharingan and the Mangekyo Sharingan are two completely different animals with the Mangekyo being more of a technique offering abilities that must be trained - much in the same way the Byakugan opens up the opportunity for the Hyuga to use the Gentle Fist technique.
Still - in close combat - I take the Byakugan. The near 360 degree situational awareness is vastly preferential to the higher 'frame rate' of the Sharingan (basically, the Sharingan is described as a sort of slow-motion camera paired with the ability to focus on multiple objects within the field of view at one time). A Sharingan user is not automatically faster than any other ninja of comparable class - thus the Byakugan suffers no real penalty by -not- being faster than the average human eye (though it's possible the Byakugan does have some additional capacity for handling rapid movement - but it's not stated anywhere that I've found). The Sharingan, however, takes a hit to situational awareness and must have direct line of sight to be of benefit.
The Byakugan is virtually immune to various techniques like obscuring mist and others popular among close combatants, while the Sharingan can only use indirect cues (such as disturbances in the obscuring medium) to counter the ability. Were I a Hyuga up against a Sharingan user - I'd always be looking to break line of sight and contact - appearing from blind spots to deliver punishing blows.
"Just use Susano'o to defend?"
I can play that game, too. You sit there and burn chakra at rates exponentially more rapid compared to keeping my Byakugan active. The moment you drop your Susano'o - I'm back in one of your blind spots and forcing you to raise it again.
Though, honestly, I would be expanding my allowable use of techniques to include shadow-clones and some other diversionary tactics, here. Being the 'real me' to charge out every time into the Mangekyo's version of Dragon Ball Z combat is too reliant upon me being able to dodge every attack by an opponent that's supposedly an intelligent tactician.
I'm not sure why the Hyuga aren't shown using more standard techniques (such as substitution, shadow clones, etc) - even in scenarios where it would be quite sensible to do so. I said before that I think that it's because their counters are usually the most effective choice (for them)... but I can't help but wonder if they -can't- use standard jutsu. Or if it's kind of like a family code... 'use the same jutsu as all the other plebes and get disowned' sort of deal...
Though I suspect it's something we'll soon come to find out ties them back to a lineage before the sage existed.
3:
While the Sharingan allows its wielders to copy the ninjutsu of opponents by capturing the hand signs used - many of the more advanced abilities are not so easily copied.
The Byakugan, on the other hand, gives direct observation of chakra flow (allowing them to see chakra networks and emissions by allies and opponents). While the abilities of the Sharingan may be superior in that it allows one to identify and predict hand-signs used in a technique - the Byakugan, at least in theory, should provide far more detailed information about how the technique works and how it is formed. The Byakugan may not enable the freaky "copying something I'm seeing for the first time" capability, but after seeing a technique performed a few times - it is not at all outside the realm of reason to suspect that someone with the Byakugan could copy a jutsu.
Specifically - the Hyuga should be far more adept at picking up jutsu that require raw changes in chakra shape/form due to their greatly enhanced ability to control their chakra points. In short - I'm surprised Hinata hasn't pulled the Rasengan out of nowhere.
But that's not really the best use of a Hyuga's talents. Copying ninjutsu is a fundamentally flawed tactic in combat. Trying to use a jutsu that you just recently picked up and use it against the very opponent you just copied it from (who has -much- more experience with it than you).... is just a bad idea (for one on one combat, at least).
Hyuga specialize in the Gentle Fist, an ability that works off of the taoist philosophy that great action can be affected with a tiny amount of effort given it is applied with the proper technique and 'harmony' with nature. They also, conveniently, have an ability that allows them to see the structure and flow of chakra. Rather than copying an ability - a Hyuga should be able to shred the ability - to unravel its very structure and make the effort moot. An insanely adept Hyuga could turn the jutsu around on their opponent.
Granted - a lot of this last line of reasoning is posited as a theoretical expansion of Hyuga abilities rather than a list of "things it is stated to do" - but it's still a relatively powerful notion.
1:
Nothing. And I do mean nothing, is more important in war or special operations. The Byakugan, in this regard, provides superior situational awareness under all conditions. While the ranges seem to vary from individual to individual and may be a reflection of training focus... Neji has a range of some 800 meters with his Byakugan by Part II and Hinata is stated to have an -insane- 10 kilometers.
Just have a squad of Genin and there's a whole platoon of enemies? Who needs Susano'o when you can report enemy location, numbers, identify notable blood lines, and your Genin squad out of harm's way? You can keep your people out of danger by providing a sphere of situational awareness that real world armies would sign contracts with the devil to have (ground recon is difficult and often directed by indicators from aerial recon assets).
This is what makes the Byakguan so potent. You can completely nullify the toughest defenses and thwart the mightiest offenses by gathering detailed information that would require combat attrition to obtain, classically. Defenses can be circumvented, weaknesses in watch rotations and layouts can be exploited in ways that would normally require inside informants....
The Byakguan is an OpSec (operational security) nightmare. You can't hide anything from them short of being out of range... and let's face it - Neji's Part I range of something between 50 and 100 meters would be a challenge to design watch security that he couldn't wiggle through (which likely represents the 'fodder Hyuga' Byakugan abilities). By Part II - he has 800 meters, which is realistically impossible to defend against (he can probably sit just outside your operating base and see anything/everything within that he wants to) - and likely represents adept Hyuga (such as those in service with the ANBU). Hinata, being a freak of nature - has 10 kilometers. She's able to run recon on your entire army (if we're going with historic battlefield sizes like Gettysburg)... from inside her own command post. To put that into Naruto scale - she can stand in the middle of the Forest of Death and see anything/everything within it. That, my friends, is what we call: "Flawless Difficulty."
2:
Since there's no excuse for a Byakugan wielding adept to be at all surprised by an impending battle or the likely capabilities of the opponent(s) - combat is often an optional evolution. However, when one commits to doing so, they excel at taijutsu and can inflict damage on any target by turning their own chakra network against them.
Range would normally be an issue - but any Hyuga adept should have more than enough agility and endurance to identify long ranged threats and avoid them while also being able to see avenues of concealed and covered approach to get within effective range of their various capabilities. It should speak volumes, here, that the Hyuga do not utilize typical jutsu. This should not be interpreted to mean that they can't - but rather than their arts and Byakugan are regarded as -more effective- ways to handle opponents.
Now, some would argue that the fighting style and Byakugan are different... which is somewhat true. In that same sense - the Sharingan and the Mangekyo Sharingan are two completely different animals with the Mangekyo being more of a technique offering abilities that must be trained - much in the same way the Byakugan opens up the opportunity for the Hyuga to use the Gentle Fist technique.
Still - in close combat - I take the Byakugan. The near 360 degree situational awareness is vastly preferential to the higher 'frame rate' of the Sharingan (basically, the Sharingan is described as a sort of slow-motion camera paired with the ability to focus on multiple objects within the field of view at one time). A Sharingan user is not automatically faster than any other ninja of comparable class - thus the Byakugan suffers no real penalty by -not- being faster than the average human eye (though it's possible the Byakugan does have some additional capacity for handling rapid movement - but it's not stated anywhere that I've found). The Sharingan, however, takes a hit to situational awareness and must have direct line of sight to be of benefit.
The Byakugan is virtually immune to various techniques like obscuring mist and others popular among close combatants, while the Sharingan can only use indirect cues (such as disturbances in the obscuring medium) to counter the ability. Were I a Hyuga up against a Sharingan user - I'd always be looking to break line of sight and contact - appearing from blind spots to deliver punishing blows.
"Just use Susano'o to defend?"
I can play that game, too. You sit there and burn chakra at rates exponentially more rapid compared to keeping my Byakugan active. The moment you drop your Susano'o - I'm back in one of your blind spots and forcing you to raise it again.
Though, honestly, I would be expanding my allowable use of techniques to include shadow-clones and some other diversionary tactics, here. Being the 'real me' to charge out every time into the Mangekyo's version of Dragon Ball Z combat is too reliant upon me being able to dodge every attack by an opponent that's supposedly an intelligent tactician.
I'm not sure why the Hyuga aren't shown using more standard techniques (such as substitution, shadow clones, etc) - even in scenarios where it would be quite sensible to do so. I said before that I think that it's because their counters are usually the most effective choice (for them)... but I can't help but wonder if they -can't- use standard jutsu. Or if it's kind of like a family code... 'use the same jutsu as all the other plebes and get disowned' sort of deal...
Though I suspect it's something we'll soon come to find out ties them back to a lineage before the sage existed.
3:
While the Sharingan allows its wielders to copy the ninjutsu of opponents by capturing the hand signs used - many of the more advanced abilities are not so easily copied.
The Byakugan, on the other hand, gives direct observation of chakra flow (allowing them to see chakra networks and emissions by allies and opponents). While the abilities of the Sharingan may be superior in that it allows one to identify and predict hand-signs used in a technique - the Byakugan, at least in theory, should provide far more detailed information about how the technique works and how it is formed. The Byakugan may not enable the freaky "copying something I'm seeing for the first time" capability, but after seeing a technique performed a few times - it is not at all outside the realm of reason to suspect that someone with the Byakugan could copy a jutsu.
Specifically - the Hyuga should be far more adept at picking up jutsu that require raw changes in chakra shape/form due to their greatly enhanced ability to control their chakra points. In short - I'm surprised Hinata hasn't pulled the Rasengan out of nowhere.
But that's not really the best use of a Hyuga's talents. Copying ninjutsu is a fundamentally flawed tactic in combat. Trying to use a jutsu that you just recently picked up and use it against the very opponent you just copied it from (who has -much- more experience with it than you).... is just a bad idea (for one on one combat, at least).
Hyuga specialize in the Gentle Fist, an ability that works off of the taoist philosophy that great action can be affected with a tiny amount of effort given it is applied with the proper technique and 'harmony' with nature. They also, conveniently, have an ability that allows them to see the structure and flow of chakra. Rather than copying an ability - a Hyuga should be able to shred the ability - to unravel its very structure and make the effort moot. An insanely adept Hyuga could turn the jutsu around on their opponent.
Granted - a lot of this last line of reasoning is posited as a theoretical expansion of Hyuga abilities rather than a list of "things it is stated to do" - but it's still a relatively powerful notion.
