BT Sasuke vs. Konohamaru

[Byakusharinnegan]

@Exaar

I wasn't even talking about that. Kakashi threw Sasuke off him - an offensive move. Moved underground as he had no counter to Katon attack at such a short range and pulled him underground - offensive move. I don't know what you even mean by 'not forced' as he was forced to do so on both occasions. Not to mention his defensive moves. Nakara path is not even known for Taijutsu and is well-protected.

konohamaru taking it out is a laughable point, if I am to take the example of Fuma-Shuriken - Strings - Katon combination Sasuke used to build leverage over Orochimaru. Granted that was a Sasuke after this fight, but since Sasuke showed no particular advancement in speed, Taijutsu, and Ninjutsu, I don't even see the point here. Even Haku examples are valid as there is literally a gap of only few days between the bell test and that encounter.

@Byakusharinnegan

I am sorry, but was there any point in highlighting my post in such a manner, when this is a debate section and points are used from actual scans to make a point?

Well, seeing as you recently accused someone of being on narcotics, I assume yes.

 

[Totsuka gg Amaterasu gg]

His most impressive feat was taking down the Naraka path.

Sasuke had:
Katon: Goukakyo no Jutsu

a very small one which doesn't compare to the Solo King's gokakyou

Top ranked genin Taijutsu

based on what?

Top ranked genin Ninjutsu

Konohamaru still outclasses him in genjutsu unless you seriously believe micro gokakyou >>> rasengan

Above average Genjutsu

so what are his feats?

Above average speed

as I said, 2 tomoe Sasuke needed a powerup to shit on Dosu, one of the most irrelevant side fodder genins in the manga so no...

Genius battle analytics

I still doubt he can outsmart Nagato

Above average chakra.

he didn't even know what chakra is or how to use it lol though by feats Konohamaru has more chakra since he used a rasengan and two shadow clones which takes more chakra than a basic katon

 

[shelke]

^ Bring out that post, kindly. And you are on their defense force? Never-mind, believe whatever please you.

 

[Exaar]

@Exaar

I wasn't even talking about that. Kakashi threw Sasuke off him - an offensive move. Moved underground as he had no counter to Katon attack at such a short range and pulled him underground - offensive move. I don't know what you even mean by 'not forced' as he was forced to do so on both occasions. Not to mention his defensive moves. Nakara path is not even known for Taijutsu and is well-protected.

Kakashi chose the Ninjutsu option to dodge that attack because Ninjutsu was the final part of the lesson

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kakashi even had time to say to himself about sasuke shouldn't be able to use that Jutsu, He could of quite easily of evaded the attack with his speed alone.

He already showed quite a good speed feat before they even began the test.

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Even so, I don't see how kakashi was forced to attack at all, kakashi could of quite easily of climbed out of that hole and continued to fight with sasuke if he wanted. He was in no danger nor under any pressure to need to attack.

Simply because he attacked sasuke doesn't in the slightest mean he was Forced to do so. He was simply teaching them the basics, He didn't need to attack naruto but he did, He didn't need to put sakura in Genjutsu but he did. Same with sasuke, he attacked him with a Ninjutsu because he wanted to.

 

[shelke]

@Exxar

To counter Ninjutsu with ninjutsu is obviously unheard of in the manga. Also, this wouldn't be the first time Kakashi has used this technique to evade a close-ranged Katon attack. This doesn't prove anything at all. It proves that he went on the offensive. No one is suggesting that he well-all-out with an intent to kill, but facts are facts. He didn't have time to evade with speed, so he decided to use a ninjutsu in its stead. Again, this is the first time he used this, the second was against Itachi.

Any manuver that isn't defense, is offense. He did go on the offense and it does prove that Sasuke was an exceptional student. To even put Konohamaru in this guy's league is flabbergasting.

Kakashi was forced to throw him off, he was forced to put his book away, and he was forced to go underground. If you have any proof to validate this otherwise, I am all eyes. When we have these scans:

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- He contemplates that he didn't have time to read, which means he was forced to put his book away.

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- Dodged a trap and then began Taijutsu.

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- He was forced to counter Ninjutsu with Ninjutsu.

 

[Curse Mark]

But honestly, let's compare arsenals.

At that age, Konohamaru had:

Rasengan
Slightly above average taijutsu
Above average battle analytics
Above average speed
Sexy jutsu
Above average chakra
Shadow Clone Jutsu

His most impressive feat was taking down the Naraka path.

Sasuke had:
Katon: Goukakyo no Jutsu
Top ranked genin Taijutsu
Top ranked genin Ninjutsu
Above average Genjutsu
Above average speed
Genius battle analytics
Above average chakra.

His most impressive feat was nearly succeeding in retrieving a bell from Kakashi, who, I have to say, wasn't going all out in the slightest. He was forced to be more serious than with Naruto, however.

Regardless of not being the fastest path, Naraka was indeed a path with heightened abilities. The fact that Konohamaru was able to dodge most of his attacks and ultimately outsmart him was no minor task.

But...

Sasuke simply has a better arsenal at that point. I say Sasuke, mid diff.

Sasuke was bad at using too much chakra during a jutsu and it kinda screwed him

 

[Byakusharinnegan]

By above average chakra, I meant he had an above average amount of chakra.

 

[Exaar]

@Exxar

To counter Ninjutsu with ninjutsu is obviously unheard of in the manga. Also, this wouldn't be the first time Kakashi has used this technique to evade a close-ranged Katon attack. This doesn't prove anything at all. It proves that he went on the offensive. No one is suggesting that he well-all-out with an intent to kill, but facts are facts. He didn't have time to evade with speed, so he decided to use a ninjutsu in its stead. Again, this is the first time he used this, the second was against Itachi.

I highly doubt he couldn't avoid it with speed since he already showed insane speed that i already posted. Especially since he already knew the attack was incoming.

He used it against itachi for tactical gain not because he couldn't dodge it. Hell even Naruto, sakura and the old hag could dodge it

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Any manuver that isn't defense, is offense. He did go on the offense and it does prove that Sasuke was an exceptional student. To even put Konohamaru in this guy's league is flabbergasting.

Then the same can be said for naruto, Since kakashi also took the offense with him

Kakashi was forced to throw him off, he was forced to put his book away, and he was forced to go underground. If you have any proof to validate this otherwise, I am all eyes. When we have these scans:

Forced to throw sasuke off?, Assuming you mean forced to attack sasuke, No he wasn't at all.

Being forced to attack someone implys that they're a threat and that there's no other way. Kakashi could of danced with sasuke all day if he wanted

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- He contemplates that he didn't have time to read, which means he was forced to put his book away.

Yes kakashi had to book his book away, That was a feat for sasuke.

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- He was forced to counter Ninjutsu with Ninjutsu.

Thats your assumption.

My assumption is that like Naruto/sakura and chiyo did, Kakashi could also of done the same, The 3rd and final lesson was Ninjutsu, So he used Ninjutsu, for me nothing was forced.

With the speed feat kakashi had shown before the test i don't see a problem with dodging an attack you know is coming with that level of speed.

 

[Bogard]

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[Exaar]

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I completely forgot about that scan XD

 

[shelke]

@Exaar

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It was because of the distance. Naruto and others are far off, when Kakashi is standing a lot closer to Itachi. There is no way in hell he could have dodged, when others barely did so, when they are standing twice the distance away.

The distance is even shorter here -

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- This discussion has nothing to do with Naruto. But an offensive move is an offensive move.

- Your retorts are getting pretty thin, when it's all about prowess here. Within the confines of the context, Sasuke is much much superior than the match contender here. He has legions better Taijutsu, better Ninjutsu, better trap formation, better speed etc. What ease? Had he not grabbed Naruto's shurikens, he would be dead. Had he not dodged the trap, he would be dead. Same is the case with Ninjutsu. The point isn't ease, but the hasty manner of evasions.

ANY attack that isn't countered, no matter how weak or slow it is, results in injury or death. Kakashi was on his toes during the fight. Just accept it. It's lunacy to even suggest otherwise. This ease or not is back-paddling and denial. Nakara path has zero speed speeds, it's always well-protected in formation and that somehow is a superior feat for Konohamaru? Give me a break.

- What is coming from what level of speed? Does the speed somehow change with age? Lol Okay. Also, I already proved you wrong on the speed front, so that one is a HUGE assumption on your part. Kakashi went underground with Itachi because he would have been fried otherwise.

 

[Optimistic]

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I just had a nostalgic tear from my left eye.

 

[Exaar]

@Exaar

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It was because of the distance. Naruto and others are far off, when Kakashi is standing a lot closer to Itachi. There is no way in hell he could have dodged, when others barely did so, when they are standing twice the distance away.

The distance is even shorter here -

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.[/QUOTE]

I know there was distance between Kakashi and his team, but it wasn't that great of a distance.

Also Simply because Naruto and sakura barely dodged Itachi's katon, it doesn't mean kakashi couldn't considering his speed is far beyond their own + his sharingan as added help.
If naruto/sakura/chiyo had the same level of speed as kakashi or had the added help of the sharingan your point would be valid.

especially since kakashi was dodging Kakuzu/Hidan combo's

Quite a close ranged fuuton (Note that Hidan is very close to Kakashi and the heart appears a couple of feet behind hidan)

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Yet he dodged this

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- This discussion has nothing to do with Naruto. But an offensive move is an offensive move.

Actually it does.

Kakashi used an offensive Taijutsu based move on naruto in a Tajutsu lesson. Simply because he used an offensive move doesn't he was force in anyway to do so.
This also applies to sasuke.

Ninjutsu lesson, used Ninjutsu on sasuke

Genjutsu lesson, Used Genjutsu on sakura

Taijutsu lesson, Used Taijutsu on naruto

Simple as that, Why would kakashi dodge with speed, When he could use Ninjutsu to do so, Since it's a Ninjutsu lesson?.

ANY attack that isn't countered, no matter how weak or slow it is, results in injury or death. Kakashi was on his toes during the fight. Just accept it. It's lunacy to even suggest otherwise. This ease or not is back-paddling and denial. Nakara path has zero speed speeds, it's always well-protected in formation and that somehow is a superior feat for Konohamaru? Give me a break.

I already know this.
My argument is in the way you claim kakashi was Forced to dodge it, Not if he had to dodge it or not.

- What is coming from what level of speed? Does the speed somehow change with age? Lol Okay. Also, I already proved you wrong on the speed front, so that one is a HUGE assumption on your part. Kakashi went underground with Itachi because he would have been fried otherwise.

I haven't a clue where you the age thing from, if it was from me calling chiyo an old hag, it wasn't anything to do with Age/Speed. Sometimes i forget how to spell her name so i just call her an old hag.

You haven't proved me wrong on any speed front, There are two scans on this thread showing kakashi's speed during the bell test. Seems got enough to dodge a small katon such as sasuke's.

 

[shelke]

@Exaar

- That is an assumption. Considering Kakashi was not even expecting a Katon attack and mulling over Itachi's attack -

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. The fact remains that the distance was too short, so he had no other option but to go underground. This isn't even debatable.

- There is nothing to suggest that that attack was faster than Itachi's Katon. Unless you have proof -

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. Also, how do you expect the guy to use the strategy he used against Itachi in mid-air? The masks are about twice the size of Kakuzu in width and the Futon mask is taller as well-

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- and it looks about the size of Hidan's head here.

The mask is not as close as you think it is. In fact, the distance is about the same as Naruto and Co in Itachi panel I showed you, and STILL Kakashi failed to dodge completely and got injured, along with the complete loss of his jacket.

- False. The guy was using lessons to counter lessons. Also, nothing was stopping him from using speed as well, as it's also an important factor in evasion and combat. It's just an assumption.

- My Claim is that you have no counter claim. Kakashi used ninjutsu with ease, no doubt. No one is suggesting that Sasuke even had a chance in hell against Kakashi, but given the context, Kakashi was forced to go underground. Had he not done so, the guy was fried.

- You said speed of the technique or something along these lines. I could have misinterpreted it though. I have proved you wrong on the Katon front. The rest are your opinions. You are welcome to stick to them.

 

[BlacLord™]

No he wasn't forced.

He attacked because he felt like it, Unless you're going to also claim that naruto "Forced" kakashi to attack.

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@Totsuka I'm not even going to dignify you anymore, especially after saying Sasuke didn't know what chakra was, clearly he did or he wouldn't be using elemental ninjutsu.

 

[GiantShuriken]

At this level, powers don't really matter. Its just about skill. And skill-wise, Sasuke outclasses Konohamaru.

 

[Eternal Phoenix]

Lolwut, Konohamaru stomps.

 

[VolatileSoul]

Why people are bringing up Sasuke failing against Kakashi as evidence that Konohamaru would beat him is beyond me. Konohamaru wouldn't even be able to touch the bell. He'd be in the same boat as Naruto. Attacking with futile clones. All 2 of them.

 

[adeshina365]

I'm not sure if this thread is some kind of elaborate joke or not...

Sasuke stumps his ass no-diff.

 

[Totsuka gg Amaterasu gg]

can't believe some people seriously believe touching the bell > solo'ing someone who had Nagato's reaction time / experience and shitstomped 2 chunins on panel (most likely far more)...

Why people are bringing up Sasuke failing against Kakashi as evidence that Konohamaru would beat him is beyond me. Konohamaru wouldn't even be able to touch the bell. He'd be in the same boat as Naruto. Attacking with futile clones. All 2 of them.

you mean the Naruto which fodderized Sasuke? [

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@Totsuka I'm not even going to dignify you anymore, especially after saying Sasuke didn't know what chakra was, clearly he did or he wouldn't be using elemental ninjutsu.

maybe, maybe not... though Naruto was also able to use ninjutsu (clones) ..yet according to Kakashi they couldn't use chakra properly [

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even Sakura had better chakra control [

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about his chakra reserves we don't know much since he used a basic fodder katon...

At this level, powers don't really matter. Its just about skill. And skill-wise, Sasuke outclasses Konohamaru.

based on what?