BSM/EMS Naruto and Sasuke take the gauntlet.

[lanakui8]

You've just shown me Naruto and Sasuke advancing towards Juubito and nothing more; that doesn't show Naruto's fast enough to evade Myoujinmon in the Avatar, not when it has feats of immobilizing someone as fast as Madara who's definitely faster than Naruto's Avatar [

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].

Hashirama was incapable of using myoujinmon to bind EMS Madara's kyuusanoo, how is he going to do the same to a far more mobile construct?

Hashirama couldn't even immobilize madara when he had his mokuryus wrapped around and draining madara of chakra, the only reason he landed them was Madara getting obliterated by SM Chou oodama rasenshuriken and then being immobile and practically helpless while his edo body reforms.

They'll always need to defend considering Hashirama will have multiple Mokuton constructs out. He takes down the Avatar, then Mokujin takes him down, or Mokuryuu comes at him and restrains him, stopping him from moving all while absorbing his chakra at the same time. While Naruto's in the process of deactivating his Kurama Avatar, Hashirama can also put up FTW which will be effective since the only thing that can be fired fast enough to take down FTW before it releases pollen is a Bijuu Bomb, and Naruto can only make large Bijuu Bombs while in the Avatar. FRS is capable of taking down FTW but it needs a bit of prep time to make it big enough to destroy the Mokuton [

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][

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].

How does Hashirama do that before BSM Naruto shunshins out and puts up another avatar? Mokuryu got blown to pieces by a BM Naruto shunshin, and it's at best as fast as BM Naruto's avatar, how is it going to restrain BSM Naruto? A single FRS would destroy that. Mokujin isn't grabbing something as fast as BSM Naruto, FTW doesn't instantly knock people out, nor does it instantly cover the terrain, and Naruto doesn't have to bust the whole technique, only a portion of it like oonoki did, something that is possible with a KN4-KN6 bijuudama.

Feats. There's nothing that implies Sasuke's PS is as powerful as Madara's. Naruto resembled Hashirama but he still wasn't as strong as him as feats have shown, so I've got no reason to believe Sasuke, a person who resembled Madara, is at his tier when Naruto wasn't at Hashirama's tier. Hashirama had no reason to use Myoujinmon when Shinsuusenju was sufficient enough.

BSM Naruto was in hashirama's tier, I don't understand how you got the idea he wasn't. Sasuke's PS enhanced by naruto's bijuusennin mode could possibly be as powerful as Madara's, and at the very least is in madara's tier. Hashirama had all the reason to use myoujinmon against Kyuusanoo as it would have rendered the beast completely helpless against Shinsuusenjuu which would have resulted in a low difficulty win for Hashirama.

Edo Hashirama also had all the reason to use myounjinmon against edo Madara's PS, yet he didn't. This shows that with enough reactions and speed, myounjinmon isn't landing.

 

[Blunt]

Touken, how well would Mokuton really do against Enton covered Susano'o, restraining the avatar in the first place will be difficult enough. If Sasuke and Naruto start getting overwhelmed, a single Enton RS should clear anything in it's way. Especially if it's BSM chakra, the attack would be ridiculously effective against Mokuton.

 

[Jimihendrix]

probably stops at 2

Edit: although they have a chance at two and if they win, they stop at 3

 

[Jimihendrix]

1, 2, 8, 9.

These are the ones I see them winning.

Give Hashirama SS and then it will be 1, 2 and 8 that they win

EDIT: scratch number 8, I forgot they have no sealing jutsu and as such this brings me back to my first post: they are only capable of beating 1 and 2 and I'm actually highly doubtful they can take on SM Hashi even without SS.

 

[Jimihendrix]

to people saying that BM beats Obito w/ 6 paths... You must have forgotten the importance Kakashi played in that fight and how he's the only reason anyone can even touch him, bar ftg users.

Damn, BM Naruto was getting babyshaked in that fight and u still wanna say he can keep up with trollbito? GTFO of here. Sasuke ain't making a difference unless he has kamui too

 

[Jimihendrix]

the day a featless EMS Sasuke wins anything will be the day the manga ends. sigh. Back before his recent powerup, EMS Sasuke wasn't even top 10 U_U

 

[lanakui8]

to people saying that BM beats Obito w/ 6 paths... You must have forgotten the importance Kakashi played in that fight and how he's the only reason anyone can even touch him, bar ftg users.

Damn, BM Naruto was getting babyshaked in that fight and u still wanna say he can keep up with trollbito? GTFO of here. Sasuke ain't making a difference unless he has kamui too

show me one time where BM Naruto was getting babyshaked in that fight.

BM Naruto's clone was even capable of tagging obito, and Naruto didn't even want to kill him. Killing intent on, Naruto makes a bunch of clones and flash blitzes Obito when he tries to do anything offensively.

Any form of Naruto sennin mode and above mops the floor with Obito if they are allowed killing intent.

the day a featless EMS Sasuke wins anything will be the day the manga ends. sigh. Back before his recent powerup, EMS Sasuke wasn't even top 10 U_U

Since when was EMS Sasuke featless? He showed many feats in his fight with Juubito and even before that. Even if a character is featless, since when does a character lacking feats = they lose to everyone with feats? Before Hashirama revealed his fight at VoTe, he would have been stomped by PS via feats, yet does that mean PS > Hashirama despite the manga explicitly saying Hashirama > EMS MAdara?

 

[BenjerminGaye]

How does naruto or sasuke see through bringer of darkness ?

I personally don't see them passing akatsuki.

 

[lanakui8]

How does naruto or sasuke see through bringer of darkness ?

I personally don't see them passing akatsuki.

partner method.... Bijuusennin mode sensing and EMS which can see through genjutsu and land hits on juubito.

Why didn't hashirama use bringer of darkness on madara?

 

[BenjerminGaye]

How does naruto or sasuke see through bringer of darkness ?

I personally don't see them passing akatsuki.

 

[Blunt]

@Jimihendrix Both EMS Sasuke and BM Naruto can solo Obito without Paths.

 

[Touken]

Hashirama was incapable of using myoujinmon to bind EMS Madara's kyuusanoo, how is he going to do the same to a far more mobile construct?

Hashirama couldn't even immobilize madara when he had his mokuryus wrapped around and draining madara of chakra, the only reason he landed them was Madara getting obliterated by SM Chou oodama rasenshuriken and then being immobile and practically helpless while his edo body reforms.

What? Did we see him attempt to use Myoujinmon against Madara at VoTE? We didn't, so I don't know how you came to the conclusion that he was incapable of immobilizing with Myoujinmon seeing as he never attempted to.

Restrained by Mokuryuu while having your chakra absorbed is being immobilized in my book, something Hashirama clearly says - [

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], 'In other words you're unable to move...'. He already had him immobilized, he just couldn't deal a finishing blow due to Madara's Preta Path, which is why he needed Naruto's FRS, and he later states that Naruto's FRS wasn't enough to defeat him anyway [

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], so Myoujinmon landing on Madara wasn't due to FRS. Even if he was completely destroyed by FRS, how would Hashirama throw down Gates on him while he's only pieces of paper? It doesn't make sense.

How does Hashirama do that before BSM Naruto shunshins out and puts up another avatar? Mokuryu got blown to pieces by a BM Naruto shunshin, and it's at best as fast as BM Naruto's avatar, how is it going to restrain BSM Naruto? A single FRS would destroy that. Mokujin isn't grabbing something as fast as BSM Naruto, FTW doesn't instantly knock people out, nor does it instantly cover the terrain, and Naruto doesn't have to bust the whole technique, only a portion of it like oonoki did, something that is possible with a KN4-KN6 bijuudama.

He's gonna Shunshin out while he's in mid-air? You're gonna need some scans while making some of your points because I don't know what you're referring to. FTW does indeed cover the terrain almost instantly [

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][

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]. The only thing that's going to be strong enough to decimate that is a Bijuu Bomb but that can't be done without the Kurama Avatar, and Chou Oodama FRS takes too long to prep, and yes, the pollen does knock its targets out almost instantly [

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]. Onoki didn't destroy a portion of it, he destroyed every single root [

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][

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].

BSM Naruto was in hashirama's tier, I don't understand how you got the idea he wasn't. Sasuke's PS enhanced by naruto's bijuusennin mode could possibly be as powerful as Madara's, and at the very least is in madara's tier. Hashirama had all the reason to use myoujinmon against Kyuusanoo as it would have rendered the beast completely helpless against Shinsuusenjuu which would have resulted in a low difficulty win for Hashirama.

Edo Hashirama also had all the reason to use myounjinmon against edo Madara's PS, yet he didn't. This shows that with enough reactions and speed, myounjinmon isn't landing.

An unrestricted Hashirama comfortably beats an unrestricted BSM Naruto. The same goes for Madara with Sasuke, hence why Tobirama and Orochimaru only talked about potential, they didn't talk about them being at their level yet [

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][

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]. Myoujinmon wouldn't have helped when Madara had already fired off multiple Bijuu Bombs.

That fight was off panelled. We haven't a clue how Edo Madara vs. Hashirama went down.

 

[KidGamer65]

They'll always need to defend considering Hashirama will have multiple Mokuton constructs out. He takes down the Avatar, then Mokujin takes him down, or Mokuryuu comes at him and restrains him, stopping him from moving all while absorbing his chakra at the same time. While Naruto's in the process of deactivating his Kurama Avatar, Hashirama can also put up FTW which will be effective since the only thing that can be fired fast enough to take down FTW before it releases pollen is a Bijuu Bomb, and Naruto can only make large Bijuu Bombs while in the Avatar. FRS is capable of taking down FTW but it needs a bit of prep time to make it big enough to destroy the Mokuton [

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][

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].

Hashirama's constructs still have to reach their position, and attack before Sasuke can activate Susanoo or before Naruto can put the cloak back up. In fact, if they are under the gate, it gives them time to escape the Mokujin won't be able to crush them while they are under it. So they get away and reactivate the Bijuu Avatar or they use Sasuke's Susanoo enhanced by Naruto's Kurama cloak instead to tank Mokujin and destroy Mokuryu, then Naruto reactivates his avatar.

Process of deactivating the avatar? There is

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process. Its down literally a second later. They have more than enough time to re-mobilize their defenses. Start off with Sasuke's Susanoo, it jumps above the pollen, and inside it Naruto charges up a big enough FRS and Sasuke combines it with Enton and they obliterate the flowers.

And Naruto doesn't even need to use an FRS that large to obliterate it.

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will suffice when combined with Enton at a matched chakra ratio. The burning power of the flames increases, and it

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, so the range will be as large as a normal Chou Oodama FRS sphere. The only need to destroy the flowers to counter the jutsu.

Feats. There's nothing that implies Sasuke's PS is as powerful as Madara's. Naruto resembled Hashirama but he still wasn't as strong as him as feats have shown, so I've got no reason to believe Sasuke, a person who resembled Madara, is at his tier when Naruto wasn't at Hashirama's tier. Hashirama had no reason to use Myoujinmon when Shinsuusenju was sufficient enough.

There are no feats. That's what's wrong with this logic you people are using. You are saying that Sasuke's PS is far below Madara's based on feats when Sasuke has no feats to base his power on. Am I going to say Hamura is weaker than anyone who has feats just because he has none? No. None of Madara's Susanoo have ever shown to be so much stronger than Sasuke's, to justify his PS being on a completely different level. The only thing that had substance was the size argument, and now that's in the trash since current Sasuke's Susanoo is way above Madara's despite it being way smaller.

Lol, Naruto is in Hashirama's tier. Just like Sasuke is in Madara's tier.

The sufficient enough excuse doesn't work when Shinsuusenju is his most powerful jutsu. If Myojinmon and Mokuryu were sufficient enough, he wouldn't have busted out the big guns to handle Madara. But he did, leading me to believe anything weaker is completely useless against PS Kurama.

 

[lanakui8]

What? Did we see him attempt to use Myoujinmon against Madara at VoTE? We didn't, so I don't know how you came to the conclusion that he was incapable of immobilizing with Myoujinmon seeing as he never attempted to.

I came to that conclusion because if he was capable of doing that, he would have stomped madara with it.

Restrained by Mokuryuu while having your chakra absorbed is being immobilized in my book, something Hashirama clearly says - [

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], 'In other words you're unable to move...'. He already had him immobilized, he just couldn't deal a finishing blow due to Madara's Preta Path, which is why he needed Naruto's FRS, and he later states that Naruto's FRS wasn't enough to defeat him anyway [

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], so Myoujinmon landing on Madara wasn't due to FRS. Even if he was completely destroyed by FRS, how would Hashirama throw down Gates on him while he's only pieces of paper? It doesn't make sense.

Hashirama wouldn't have expected naruto's FRS to finish madara when both he and madara survived something like the quad super juubidama. Hashi was simply stating the obvious, and Hashirama throws the gates on him while he's reforming which doesn't mean madara is in complete paper form, rather he's simply not all there.
you might think madara was immobilized by the dragons, but hashirama obviously doesn't think so.

He's gonna Shunshin out while he's in mid-air? You're gonna need some scans while making some of your points because I don't know what you're referring to.

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and mokuryu's face was blown apart by the force of the shunshin.

FTW does indeed cover the terrain almost instantly [

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][

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]. The only thing that's going to be strong enough to decimate that is a Bijuu Bomb but that can't be done without the Kurama Avatar, and Chou Oodama FRS takes too long to prep, and yes, the pollen does knock its targets out almost instantly [

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].

Ei was able to backpeddal out of it without even using his raiton shroud, mei, tsunade and gaara had time to react and talk before the attack came near them, and they were pretty close to madara when he let that technique off as well. That's not almost instantly. bijuudama isn't required to decimate it, Chou oodama FRS isn't even required.

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a BM FRS is powerful enough to cut through the juubi's tails that could withstand a bijuudama and a bunch of other powerful attacks, and a BSM FRS is much more powerful than both. Naruto throws one BSM FRS and expands it destroying a kilometer of Hashirama's technique. BSM Naruto's bijuudama rasengan would blow up clear a kilometer + of the technique as well considering how powerful kn6's bijuudama was and naruto's dama will be enhanced by senjutsu.

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as well.

The flower tree world took so long to affect the gokage that they got knocked into it, madara had time to burn their surrounding area and mei had time to form the seals and gather the chakra to use a suiton and that's all after the FTW is created. Naruto sees the technique coming, he shunshins out and blows it a massive portion of it away with senpou bijuudama rasengan or twin BSM FRS.

Onoki didn't destroy a portion of it, he destroyed every single root [

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][

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].

Oonoki only destroyed a portion of it which is why

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when we get our next zoomed out view of the battlefield.

An unrestricted Hashirama comfortably beats an unrestricted BSM Naruto. The same goes for Madara with Sasuke, hence why Tobirama and Orochimaru only talked about potential, they didn't talk about them being at their level yet [

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][

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].

Tobirama and Orochimaru only talked about the potential of Sasuke, they didn't say anything about Naruto's potential. Naruto loses to Hashi, sure, but in a mid/high diff fight at least. Sasuke's shortcomings are closed when Naruto powers him up with senjutsu.

Myoujinmon wouldn't have helped when Madara had already fired off multiple Bijuu Bombs.

Why does that mean myoujinmon wouldn't have helped? He myonjinmons him and he can't fire any more while shinsuusenjuu is free to keep on pummelling him.

That fight was off panelled. We haven't a clue how Edo Madara vs. Hashirama went down.

Are you asserting that Hashirama used myonjinmon, yet for some reason it failed on edo madara? If so, how did edo madara do such a thing and what's preventing naruto or sasuke from doing it as well?

 

[Touken]

Gonna be busy over the next few days so I'll have to concede my points for now. If I get time, I'll try to reply.

 

[ARGUS]

Not to mention even if Sasuke's PS is weaker than Madara's, which isn't a fact, being equipped to the BSM Kurama Avatar enhances it with Naruto's Senjutsu, so it'd be better while armored on to Kurama. Unless you think Madara's PS is so far above Sasuke's, that a Senjutsu boost won't at the very least put him on par with Madara's Susanoo.

Apart from the rest of ur post, i just disagree with the bold
Sasukes PS in his EMS form is still inferior to madaras, and seeing how he formed this susanoo despite being powered up by BSM Naruto, and the fact that his PS formed no shockwaves,
leads me to believe that if sasuke forms that PS on his own, then its likely to be smaller and weaker by quite a margin, due to the fact that the kurama chakra seems to multiply a users jutsu x3.

 

[ARGUS]

I'll have to agree with you, Sasuke's Rinnegan PS did show that the size of Susano'o is irrelevant when it comes down to it.

No, sasukes winged PS is most likely larger than madaras, so that statement still somewhat stands
the angle where madaras PS is shown makes it appear larger,
however, here you can see

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which are much larger than the

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, and from herre we can conclude the madaras PS is infact mountain sized, if not slightly smaller..
however here, we can clearly tell that

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if not possibly even larger than madaras, seeing how its visible infront of huge meteorites

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of the earth,, and are larger than the roots of the shinju,

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, as this same location was covered

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, and from this view madaras PS is not even visible,
thereby concluding that sasukse winged PS is most likely larger than madaras,

besides Sasukes PS is amplified significantly by hagoromos power, as well as the rinnegan, and his moon power,
but the size is still most likely in sasukes favour, if we look at those scans,
which is why, size still matters in most cases when it comes to durability/offense of susanoo

 

[lucario14]

Apart from the rest of ur post, i just disagree with the bold
Sasukes PS in his EMS form is still inferior to madaras, and seeing how he formed this susanoo despite being powered up by BSM Naruto, and the fact that his PS formed no shockwaves,
leads me to believe that if sasuke forms that PS on his own, then its likely to be smaller and weaker by quite a margin, due to the fact that the kurama chakra seems to multiply a users jutsu x3.

How do you know sasuke was being powered up by bsm naruto? Wouldn't it be implied that they are

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? Like 50/50? Are you talking about the kyuusanoo forming no shockwaves? It broke the the sword of nunoboko I don't think it needs to show shockwaves to display it's power.

 

[ARGUS]

How do you know sasuke was being powered up by bsm naruto? Wouldn't it be implied that they are

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? Like 50/50?

No, the bold is wrong, since sasuke is not sharing any chakra, nor is he distributing any chakra to naruto in any form whatsoever, i dont see where you got the assumption that they are sharing chakra 50/50,

their chakra isnt shared 50/50, as the

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during the kyuususanoo was onslaught, meaning that sasuke still had the kuramas power during PS,

Are you talking about the kyuusanoo forming no shockwaves? It broke the the sword of nunoboko I don't think it needs to show shockwaves to display it's power.

The sword with literally no feats whatsover, lol
and the shockwaves were only used as an example for the properties of PS thats all, furthermore, the shockwaves are an offensive feat, the nunoboku sword broke due to the

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so it still doesnt have any offensive feats, that puts it in the mountain level,
nor does the sword of nunoboku have any feats to back up ur argument

 

[lucario14]

No, the bold is wrong, since sasuke is not sharing any chakra, nor is he distributing any chakra to naruto in any form whatsoever, i dont see where you got the assumption that they are sharing chakra 50/50,

Yes it is an assumption but "two powers mixing" doesn't imply naruto is giving more than sasuke is giving either.

their chakra isnt shared 50/50, as the

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during the kyuususanoo was onslaught, meaning that sasuke still had the kuramas power during PS,

he has jugo's power for sure but after

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it doesn't look like he's got the kurama chakra. The next page shows he's bringing out his own susanoo chakra shroud.

The sword with literally no feats whatsover, lol
and the shockwaves were only used as an example for the properties of PS thats all, furthermore, the shockwaves are an offensive feat, the nunoboku sword broke due to the

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so it still doesnt have any offensive feats, that puts it in the mountain level,
nor does the sword of nunoboku have any feats to back up ur argument

Not feats, words.

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Hashirama says juubito is stronger than him. So we can assume that the sword nunoboko is stronger than hashirama's strongest justu, the shinsuusenju. The kyuusanoo sword broke that sword so can't we assume that it is more powerful than the shinsuusenju which took down madara's PS. Also look at the size of that sword...