Break down of Hashirama in relation to Uchiha

[Mellanoma]

Im getting real rustled about how people are saying Hashirama is immune to genjutsu and Why Madara never used Genjutsu. So im going to be as salty as possible with explaining this


Hashirama is vulnerable to Sharingan Genjutsu HOWEVER 99% of the uchiha clan would lose to Hashirama 1 v 1 for this simple reason.

Mokuton clones require MS or higher to see.

Madara's words concerning Hashirama Mokuton.

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Madara with deactivated eyes

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The images above shows us that Hashirama's clones are so precise that any one lacking MS or higher will get wrecked in 1 v 1. So even if you use Genjutsu vs Hashirama you may be using it against a clone which would leave you vulnerable. Not counting the fact that he has been fighting Uchiha all his life and knows not to make eye contact

With this said we can conclude that 3 Tomoe genjutsu users are pretty much done for vs him without much effort.


MS users (Madara, Solo King, Sasuke, Shishu)

Ninjutsu​

Hashirama is by far the most destructive capable powerhouse in this series EMS and below. This is not arguable as we seen him take on Kyuubi and Perfect Susanoo and won.

Madara's style of fighting is centered around overpowering his enemy and trying to break their will. Madara knew he needed help to take on Hashirama which is why he used the Kyuubi and even then it was not enough.

What this tells me is....

1) Madara was over confident in his destructive abilities while underestimating Hashirama(Maybe kyuubi gave him confidence.)

2)He lacks tactical ability which honestly would not help against Hashirama

3)He lacks Genjutsu prowess

The only Genjutsu we've seen Madara use is base Sharingan Genjutsu which leads me to believe he lacked Genjutsu prowess. Also considering the time he grew up in one could argue that Genjutsu wasn't necessarily prevalent back then as the day to day was strictly Taijutsu/ninjutsu.

EMS Sasuke based on his fighting style would have faired better against Hashirama than Madara if he was given the Kyuubi as well especially since he has Enton to support him and he uses his Susanoo tactically and not simply based on overpowering.

Genjutsu​

Since I have already explained why 3 Tomoe or lower won't work I will now break down MS or higher Genjutsu.

MS or Higher Genjutsu.

Tsukyomi
Kotoamatsukami


Tsukyomi based on manga will work however situation really determines the outcome. If caught off guard yes it will work. If in the heat of battle you try to use it you may not fair so well as you must contend with

Flower Tree World
Golems
Dragons
Clones
Forest of hard wood
Hashirama's resilience at not making eye contact

Which means the only sure effective Genjutsu that would work on Hashirama EMS and below is without a doubt Kotoamatsukami as it does not require eye contact. But it will definitely be a 1 trick pony.


Thoughts?

 

[unknownvillain1254]

I have to say the reason genjutus is not used as much because if you use a lot of chakra to use a move and the person escapes you just wasted 25% of your chakra and didn't even kill a person.

But I must say very good Theory

 

[Darth AniCetuS]

I don't know whether he was immune or not but considering he had been fighting the uchiha clan all his life I am sure he had a lot of ways to counter any genjutsu the uchihas had.
But there are instances where Madara and Hashirama made direct eye contact during VoTE but Madara never cast any genjutsu on Hashirama. But then again why would Hashirama make direct eye contact with an EMS user and risk himself getting caught in a genjutsu. That leads me to conclude that Hashirama was powerful enough to overpower any genjutsu Madara had to throw at him and Madara was aware of that.

 

[SenseiSama]

If genjutsu worked on Hashi it would've been used on him since the start, but it wasn't because his chakra is strong enough to break genjutsu just as easily as Madara's chakra. Ashura's power was meant to counter Indra's, deal with the facts.

 

[Mellanoma]

I don't know whether he was immune or not but considering he had been fighting the uchiha clan all his life I am sure he had a lot of ways to counter any genjutsu the uchihas had.
But there are instances where Madara and Hashirama made direct eye contact during VoTE but Madara never cast any genjutsu on Hashirama. But then again why would Hashirama make direct eye contact with an EMS user and risk himself getting caught in a genjutsu. That leads me to conclude that Hashirama was powerful enough to overpower any genjutsu Madara had to throw at him and Madara was aware of that.

There are quite a few instances during the manga that eye contact was made however no genjutsu was casted so it really is hard to say. Madara has never shown any Genjutsu prowess except for 1 no name that was caught (Not sure if it was anime only but meh).

There are levels to Genjutsu as stated by Itachi so one could argue that Madara's genjutsu was so weak it might not have worked or simply Madara decided against Genjutsu all together and focused on Susanoo. This was during a time where Ninjutsu/Taijutsu/Kenjutsu prowess determined skill. Madara being the first of his group to unlock MS/EMS probably didn't develop genjutsu.

Tsukuyomi and Koto are the only MS abilities and Madara lacked both based on Manga

If genjutsu worked on Hashi it would've been used on him since the start, but it wasn't because his chakra is strong enough to break genjutsu just as easily as Madara's chakra. Ashura's power was meant to counter Indra's, deal with the facts.

Sasuke and Naruto was caught in genjutsu many times during the series. What are you talking about?

 

[Darth AniCetuS]

There are quite a few instances during the manga that eye contact was made however no genjutsu was casted so it really is hard to say. Madara has never shown any Genjutsu prowess except for 1 no name that was caught (Not sure if it was anime only but meh).

There are levels to Genjutsu as stated by Itachi so one could argue that Madara's genjutsu was so weak it might not have worked or simply Madara decided against Genjutsu all together and focused on Susanoo. This was during a time where Ninjutsu/Taijutsu/Kenjutsu prowess determined skill. Madara being the first of his group to unlock MS/EMS probably didn't develop genjutsu.

Controlling Kurama first requires you to put him in a genjutsu. So he did have powerful genjutsu abilities just not strong enough to consider using them against Hashirama.

 

[SenseiSama]

Sasuke and Naruto was caught in genjutsu many times during the series. What are you talking about?

I never said he can't get caught, I said he can break any genjutsu he gets caught in, same with Naruto and Sasuke

 

[Mori Jin]

Bringer of Darkness counters any Genjutsu you would be helpless once caught. Bye Bye uchiha who rely on their eyes too much.

 

[Mellanoma]

I never said he can't get caught, I said he can break any genjutsu he gets caught in, same with Naruto and Sasuke

Wrong Naruto and Sasuke required help to break the genjutsu they were caught in

Bringer of Darkness counters any Genjutsu you would be helpless once caught. Bye Bye uchiha who rely on their eyes too much.

What? Bringer of darkness is a visual genjutsu... Sharingan sees through it.

Controlling Kurama first requires you to put him in a genjutsu. So he did have powerful genjutsu abilities just not strong enough to consider using them against Hashirama.

Nope, remember Controlling the Kyuubi is a natural ability given for acquiring the MS. Based on feats its as simple as Naruto turning the Seal Key to unlock/supress Kyuubi

 

[Mori Jin]

Wrong Naruto and Sasuke required help to break the genjutsu they were caught in



What? Bringer of darkness is a visual genjutsu... Sharingan sees through it.



Nope, remember Controlling the Kyuubi is a natural ability given for acquiring the MS. Based on feats its as simple as Naruto turning the Seal Key to unlock/supress Kyuubi

This technique exerts a hallucinatory effect upon the eyesight, effectively blinding the opponent. No matter how skilled an opponent may be, they are forced to wait helpless in this world of darkness, as this technique allows the user to attack unseen. Although it negates sight, it does not stop the other senses. Negates sight > Sharingan = No Genjutsu = Fodder Uchiha.

 

[Mellanoma]

This technique exerts a hallucinatory effect upon the eyesight, effectively blinding the opponent. No matter how skilled an opponent may be, they are forced to wait helpless in this world of darkness, as this technique allows the user to attack unseen. Although it negates sight, it does not stop the other senses. Negates sight > Sharingan = No Genjutsu = Fodder Uchiha.

This guy.... owned himself

 

[Mori Jin]

This guy.... owned himself

When did I say it wasn't a visual Genjutsu? Learn to read or comprehend the written language.

Edit: It's actually not a visual Genjutsu. It effects the eyes but isn't done visually it's not listed as a visual Genjutsu either.

 

[Mellanoma]

When did I say it wasn't a visual Genjutsu? Learn to read or comprehend the written language.

Edit: It's actually not a visual Genjutsu. It effects the eyes but isn't done visually it's not listed as a visual Genjutsu either.

XD too funny

 

[Darth AniCetuS]

Nope, remember Controlling the Kyuubi is a natural ability given for acquiring the MS. Based on feats its as simple as Naruto turning the Seal Key to unlock/supress Kyuubi

Transcription seal which was used to control Kurama is a genjutsu ability.

 

[Mori Jin]

XD too funny

Again Bringer of Darkness is not a visual Genjutsu, as it isn't done using ones eyes. The victim of this Genjutsu however will have their eyes effected by it. Learn the difference.

Edit: Lightning Release: Lightning Illusion Flash of Lightning Pillar is another Genjutsu which effects the eyes of the opponent but isn't a visual Genjutsu.

 

[Mellanoma]

Transcription seal which was used to control Kurama is a genjutsu ability.

Never said it wasn't a genjutsu as it controls the target. Based on manga though MS OR Sharingan/HAshirama cells allow the user the ability to control the nine tails. This is shown through Obito, Sasuke, Madara and speculated by Obito when he noticed Danzo had sharingan and Hashirama cells.

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Doesn't mean they excel at genjutsu just means they are naturally able to affect Kyuubi with Genjutsu.

 

[Mellanoma]

Again Bringer of Darkness is not a visual Genjutsu, as it isn't done using ones eyes. The victim of this Genjutsu however will have their eyes effected by it. Learn the difference.

Edit: Lightning Release: Lightning Illusion Flash of Lightning Pillar is another Genjutsu which effects the eyes of the opponent but isn't a visual Genjutsu.

Ah now we getting somewhere

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Visual Genjutsu is any jutsu that affects the eyes regardless if its casted through the eyes or not. Sharingan sees through all visual genjutsu

 

[Darth AniCetuS]

Never said it wasn't a genjutsu as it controls the target. Based on manga though MS OR Sharingan/HAshirama cells allow the user the ability to control the nine tails. This is shown through Obito, Sasuke, Madara and speculated by Obito when he noticed Danzo had sharingan and Hashirama cells.

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Doesn't mean they excel at genjutsu just means they are naturally able to affect Kyuubi with Genjutsu.

Madara was the only uchiha who controlled Kurama purely using his MS, Obito's MS was enhanced with Hashi DNA and Sasuke never controlled Kurama using MS.
Contolling Kurama using genjutsu is no small feat and the fact that MS or Hashi DNA enhanced Sharingan is needed further strengthens that fact. And we're talking about EMS Madara here whose genjutsu would naturally be even more stronger than MS genjutsu.

 

[Mellanoma]

Madara was the only uchiha who controlled Kurama purely using his MS, Obito's MS was enhanced with Hashi DNA and Sasuke never controlled Kurama using MS.
Contolling Kurama using genjutsu is no small feat and the fact that MS or Hashi DNA enhanced Sharingan is needed further strengthens that fact. And we're talking about EMS Madara here whose genjutsu would naturally be even more stronger than MS genjutsu.

@bold

No manga evidence to back this as Madara has never shown any inclination that he is great at genjutsu

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^^Sasuke supressing Kyuubi with 3T^^

lol i just posted the manga scans of of actual manga information concerning uchiha ability to manipulate the Kyuubi yet you still refuse to believe it. Manga states Normal sharingan/Hashi cells OR MS so if you choose to believe otherwise thats on you but controlling Kyuubi for an uchiha doesn't mean they are good at genjutsu

 

[Mori Jin]

Ah now we getting somewhere

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Visual Genjutsu is any jutsu that affects the eyes regardless if its casted through the eyes or not. Sharingan sees through all visual genjutsu

Visual Genjutsu is a Genjutsu done by the eyes not the other way round, Bringer of Darkness and the Lightening Genjutsu is not a visual Genjutsu bit they do effect the eyes.