BM naruto vs itachi

[BlackFlame44]

He said by the genjutsu, meaning that genjutsu. Not Tsukuyomi.

It's been stated (repeatedly) that the Sharingan is the sole counter to Tsukuyomi upon eye contact.

tsukuyomi = genjutsu and i dont think how powerful the genjustu matters on how the physics work (just makes sense that way since we are BOTH making assumptions here)

 

[SasoriOfTheRedSaand]

He said by the genjutsu, meaning that genjutsu. Not Tsukuyomi.

It's been stated (repeatedly) that the Sharingan is the sole counter to Tsukuyomi upon eye contact.

Yeah, it's the sole counter once you're caught in it. It's a Genjutsu at the end of the day. Obviously, it pales in comparison to Tsukuyomi, but the mechanics behind it is the same.

 

[Lilt]

Yeah, it's the sole counter once you're caught in it. It's a Genjutsu at the end of the day. Obviously, it pales in comparison to Tsukuyomi, but the mechanics behind it is the same.

Right, the mechanics are the same, but the durations are totally different.

Clones transfer memories to the original. This is a fact.

Normal genjutu, as with Kakashi, lasts a matter of seconds (10-30?)

So if they affect the original, it's in a marginal way.

Tsukuyomi, however, implants days of torturous, emotional trauma in an instant.

That would affect the original much more than a few moments, no?

-

Granted, there's no 100% true answer, because we simply do not know.

But I'm pretty sure Tsukuyomi would still affect the original in a substantial way.

You have to remember Itachi was always holding back when using it.

(Kisame/Kakashi said Itachi did/can kill with his Tsukuyom.)

 

[SasoriOfTheRedSaand]

Right, the mechanics are the same, but the durations are totally different.

Clones transfer memories to the original. This is a fact.

Normal genjutu, as with Kakashi, last a matter of moments.

So if they affect the original, it's in a marginal way.

Tsukuyomi, however, implants days of torturous, emotional trauma in an instant.

That would affect the original much more than a few moments, no?

-

Granted, there's no 100% true answer, because we simply do not know.

But I'm pretty sure Tsukuyomi would still affect the original in a substantial way.

You have to remember Itachi was always holding back when using it.

(Kisame/Kakash said Itachi has/could killed his Tsukuyomi [before.])

It's true, it transfers memories. But, Kakashi wasn't harmed by Itachi's momentary Genjutsu is any way. Surely, if it did affect the original, Kakashi would of felt some side affects, he never. This, coupled with Itachi's specific words: "I don't expect you to be affected by the Genjutsu, this is a Kage bunshin after all. This may be Kishi's forgetful moments, or it stands, it doesn't affect clones, which was proved in that fight.

Also, Itachi is still outnumbered here. 4 clones, WAY faster than he is, charging at him. I don't think he'd even get the chance to cast a Genjutsu. His best bet then, would be Susano'o. Though, it's as you say, we'll never know.

 

[Strawberry]

Itachi doesn't have kA atleast he was never shown using it and it was not recharged when he was alive. Why nerf naruto? Naruto wins anyway if he can ragdoll 6 bijuus he can do the same to susano. Itachi was never shown to keep it up for 8 minutes anyway.

who said it would last 8 mins?

 

[Smd]

itachi mid diff

 

[SasoriOfTheRedSaand]

who said it would last 8 mins?

That's the highest he held it for.

 

[BlackFlame44]

Yeah, it's the sole counter once you're caught in it. It's a Genjutsu at the end of the day. Obviously, it pales in comparison to Tsukuyomi, but the mechanics behind it is the same.

I kinda just said that h

 

[Lilt]

It's true, it transfers memories. But, Kakashi wasn't harmed by Itachi's momentary Genjutsu is any way. Surely, if it did affect the original, Kakashi would of felt some side affects, he never.

Eh, he doesn't look like it the moment his clone disperses:

You must be registered for see images

This, coupled with Itachi's specific words: "I don't expect you to be affected by the Genjutsu, this is a Kage bunshin after all. This may be Kishi's forgetful moments, or it stands, it doesn't affect clones, which was proved in that fight.

The viz translation isn't fitted that way anyway. It reads "I wouldn't expect you to be affected by this genjutsu." and then a later realization, "This is a Kage Bunshin." It's not that clones are immune to genjutsu, because we already know that to be untrue. We've already seen clones be affected by genjutsu.

Also, Itachi is still outnumbered here. 4 clones, WAY faster than he is, charging at him.

Naruto has never combined his shunshin with clones. Or else he'd have no problem getting by Obito's Kamui.

 

[naruto1246]

what abt susanoo

he would only use that as a last resort

 

[BlackFlame44]

Eh, he doesn't look like it the moment his clone disperses:

You must be registered for see images

The viz translation isn't fitted that way anyway. It reads "I wouldn't expect you to be affected by this genjutsu." and then a later realization, "This is a Kage Bunshin." It's not that clones are immune to genjutsu, because we already know that to be untrue. We've already seen clones be affected by genjutsu.



Naruto has never combined his shunshin with clones. Or else he'd have no problem getting by Obito's Kamui.

He isn't using his full speed but idk why.... As for the genjutsu i don't think it affects the original once it hts the clone

 

[pateuvasiliu]

Itachi's Susanoo isn't blocking a Kyuubi Bijuudama.

He gets stomped.

 

[zamki]

I am Itachi fan but I dont see Itachi beating BM Naruto..Unfortunately.

 

[SasoriOfTheRedSaand]

Eh, he doesn't look like it the moment his clone disperses:

You must be registered for see images

The viz translation isn't fitted that way anyway. It reads "I wouldn't expect you to be affected by this genjutsu." and then a later realization, "This is a Kage Bunshin." It's not that clones are immune to genjutsu, because we already know that to be untrue. We've already seen clones be affected by genjutsu.



Naruto has never combined his shunshin with clones. Or else he'd have no problem getting by Obito's Kamui.

Kakashi was actually underground at the time, and his clone was holding on to Itachi, that's why he couldn't make the move on him. So, he instructed Naruto to capitalize on the moment.

That's still referring to the same thing though, isn't it? Kishi makes a rule, then breaks it afterwards. Clones don't have an optical nervous system, to be manipulated, so how can it work?

Obito isn't the guy you blitz, not with Kamui, an MS and a Rinnegan. Tactics had to be used. And, this is an imaginary match-up, we create problems for the other person to counter. Since Itachi had his hands full with KCM Naruto alone, 4 RM Naruto's would whoop his ass.

 

[Lilt]

Kakashi was actually underground at the time, and his clone was holding on to Itachi, that's why he couldn't make the move on him. So, he instructed Naruto to capitalize on the moment.

No, think about it. He'd been underground for quite a bit. After the initial Katon. That would be plenty of time to reposition under Itachi if he were truly feeling fine. The only reason he'd need to scream at Naruto to do so instead of doing so himself is that he wasn't feeling up to it himself.

That's still referring to the same thing though, isn't it? Kishi makes a rule, then breaks it afterwards. Clones don't have an optical nervous system, to be manipulated, so how can it work?

He's not breaking it afterwards though. You're interpreting the statement incorrectly. Besides, it's undeniable that the clone was IN genjutsu, meaning his optical nervous system was effected. Your argument is that torture doesn't effect clones the same way, even though it's been stated that clones transfer their exact experiences back to the original.

Since Itachi had his hands full with KCM Naruto alone, 4 RM Naruto's would whoop his ass.

Itachi didn't have his hands full at all. He was easily evading both Bee and KCM and didn't even need his MS when engaging them in close combat. Moreover, you ought to know that 4 clones doesn't equal 4x the power. Each clone has 1/4 the power/speed of the original.

 

[SasoriOfTheRedSaand]

No, think about it. He'd been underground for quite a bit. After the initial Katon. That would be plenty of time to reposition under Itachi if he were truly feeling fine. The only reason he'd need to scream at Naruto to do so instead of doing so himself is that he wasn't feeling up to it himself.



He's not breaking it afterwards though. You're interpreting the statement incorrectly. Besides, it's undeniable that the clone was IN genjutsu, meaning his optical nervous system was effected. Your argument is that torture doesn't effect clones the same way, even though it's been stated that clones transfer their exact experiences back to the original.



Itachi didn't have his hands full at all. He was easily evading both Bee and KCM and didn't even need his MS when engaging them in close combat. Moreover, you ought to know that 4 clones doesn't equal 4x the power. Each clone has 1/4 the power/speed of the original.

Kakashi, not for a second stated he was affected by the Genjutsu, nor did he state it's hindering him at all. Calling on Naruto to quickly finish off Itachi was the best way to go. Naruto was already on land, and since Kakashi's clone was holding him, one Rasengan was all it took. Why waste time traveling to Itachi, and try finish him off? Naruto was on land, ready to strike.

Sure, he caught Kakashi in the Genjutsu, but what I'm trying to say it. the Genjutsu failed. Which is why Kakashi's clone was able to hold onto Itachi, for Naruto to dead him off. Simply put, the memory transferring to the original contradicts what just happened in that scan. I'll repeat myself. Kakashi was not affected by the Genjutsu, nor was his clone. You can't really prove otherwise. Contradictions happen in this manga, and this seems to be one of them.

1/4 of Naruto's BM speed > Itachi's speed
1/4 of BM Naruto's strength > Itachi's strength.

That's just how it is. Either way, Itachi is extremely outmatched here. He also dealt with them at different times, did he not? Explain to me, just how Itachi fights 4 of them, at the same time? He can't, he'd get destroyed.

 

[Lilt]

Kakashi, not for a second stated he was affected by the Genjutsu, nor did he state it's hindering him at all.

Deva never once said being kicked into a wall affected him, but it did, nevertheless...

Sure, he caught Kakashi in the Genjutsu, but what I'm trying to say it. the Genjutsu failed. Which is why Kakashi's clone was able to hold onto Itachi, for Naruto to dead him off.

And you attribute the breaking of genjutsu to the clone rather than the Sharingan?

When we've seen the Sharingan break genjutsu. And we've seen clones be trapped in genjutsu?

Illogical.

Simply put, the memory transferring to the original contradicts what just happened in that scan. I'll repeat myself. Kakashi was not affected by the Genjutsu, nor was his clone. You can't really prove otherwise. Contradictions happen in this manga, and this seems to be one of them.

I don't need to prove otherwise, least of all have Kakashi outright state it, because that mechanic was outright stated prior.

1/4 of Naruto's BM speed > Itachi's speed

There's really no way to determine that whatsoever. He certainly didn't blitz Obito, and Obito's not faster than Itachi.

1/4 of BM Naruto's strength > Itachi's strength.

BM Naruto is using a chakra supplement, just like Itachi uses his Susano'o.

That's just how it is. Either way, Itachi is extremely outmatched here. He also dealt with them at different times, did he not?

You must be registered for see images

Explain to me, just how Itachi fights 4 of them, at the same time? He can't, he'd get destroyed.

It's already been stated that using clones, and dividing your power, is a stupid general strategy against strong opponents. They're meant to be used for trickery, and not as an overwhelming force.

 

[SasoriOfTheRedSaand]

Deva never once said being kicked into a wall affected him, but it did, nevertheless...



And you attribute the breaking of genjutsu to the clone rather than the Sharingan? Not what Itachi said. He attributed the breaking of the genjutsu to be because of the clone, not the Sharingan. Itachi knows what he's talking about.

When we've seen the Sharingan break genjutsu. And we've seen clones be trapped in genjutsu? And it ultimately failed, which is what I'm trying to say. Trapped and effect are different things.

Illogical.



I don't need to prove otherwise, least of all have Kakashi outright state it, because that mechanic was outright stated prior.

And it has been contradicted. Kakashi never felt an ounce of pain, nor did he suffer any side affects. I can't prove it, but I believe it to be a contradiction


There's really no way to determine that whatsoever. He certainly didn't blitz Obito, and Obito's not faster than Itachi.

How can he blitz someone with Kamui? They were using strategy to overcome it, not brute force.

BM Naruto is using a chakra supplement, just like Itachi uses his Susano'o.

Nonetheless, Naruto has more strength. Tossing around Bijuu, and even learning to not break bricks.

You must be registered for see images

Nice scan. It seems to me as if he evaded them, and that was it. If that's the only moment he went against both of them, it's pretty pointless. Dodging them once isn't really proving anything. Like I said, 4 vs 1, when the 4 are physically stronger and faster isn't helping Itachi at all.

It's already been stated that using clones, and dividing your power, is a stupid general strategy against strong opponents. They're meant to be used for trickery, and not as an overwhelming force.
Doesn't mean they can't be used offensively

Answers in bold.

 

[Lilt]

The scan is more to show how much faster than them he is. If you look closely, they're still in the same position as they were, while Itachi moved several meters away. Itachi's very, very fast. He's easily one of the fastest characters in the manga, which is why he was able to trick perfect Sages and Sharingan users with clone feints, or just plain blitz Sharingan users.

 

[BlackFlame44]

Deva never once said being kicked into a wall affected him, but it did, nevertheless...



And you attribute the breaking of genjutsu to the clone rather than the Sharingan?

When we've seen the Sharingan break genjutsu. And we've seen clones be trapped in genjutsu?

Illogical.



I don't need to prove otherwise, least of all have Kakashi outright state it, because that mechanic was outright stated prior.



There's really no way to determine that whatsoever. He certainly didn't blitz Obito, and Obito's not faster than Itachi.



BM Naruto is using a chakra supplement, just like Itachi uses his Susano'o.

You must be registered for see images

It's already been stated that using clones, and dividing your power, is a stupid general strategy against strong opponents. They're meant to be used for trickery, and not as an overwhelming force.

Naruto uses clones very diversly and even kakashi used clones to used them to slice v2 jinchurikki arms and hiruzen used them seal the reanimated hokage... Don't underestimate shadow clones and assume its just parlor trick!!