illidanson
Active member
1.@illidanson
1. First time i heard something like this, but ok, not a problem at all.
- It gotta be before fight in Karakura town, since he said that it took him decades to realize it. He emphasized that in order to stop KS you must touch the blade before Aizen active his shikai. Aizen's shikai was activate whole time during FKT, so it wouldn't help him much at all if he jumped in the fight at gotei's side. There would be really hard to attack Aizen in Hueco Mundo, even if he was able to touch blade, Aizen would still destroy him with his other abilities (example - Kido). Same can be said for SS arc and before that. Aizen's shikai was very active, he fooled many captains and vice captains about nature of his zanpakuto and it seems also that he used his zanpakuto when he went to Human World to watch Isshin's fight there are probably more situations.
I gave my reason why i'm sure that this is not some plot hole and that Gin didn't really have chances to kill Aizen before his fusion with Hogyoku.
- Hogyaku Aizen was for sure stronger than Shinigami Aizen and if that was fair battle, without a doubt Gin's chances would be far better agains Shinigami Aizen, but there is primary problem: Aizen totally left his guard down when he subjected Hogyoku, he himself admitted that.
There were no better chances for Gin to take Aizen than in front of Ichigo's friends.
--Enemies are there, they need to be killed, no Aizen don't, i will do it, he (Gin) pull out his sword, stand in front of Aizen, "Oh Aizen-same don't waste your time, i will finish them, pull back your sword (at that time he touch sword)" and baaam he pierce thought Aizen, i can't imagine better situation that this. In 100 years there weren't better situation that this in which Gin could touch Aizen's sword and in which situation Aizen will be off guard.
--Gin is not really good guy, he didn't care of Gotei, in the end he didn't even care of the Izuru, he never acknowledge him, even in the end, these two never clarify "things" and didn't have moment like Tosen and Hisagi had. Gin from what we know, only cared about Matsumoto and as long as she was alright and happy he was as well, he didn't really care if some shinigami die during FKT, as long as it's not Matsumoto.
That's why i highly think that this is not plot hole, and that it's one very plausible plot twist, definitly in rang with Itachi's story.
-That's indeed true, but it is a matter of taste, someone like when characters die, and someone don't. Kubo admitted that he didn't really make war (FKT Battle) like he planned, that's why he said that current Quincy war will be something unprecedented. I think that some deadts in bleach would be good, i'm really pissed off why he didn't killed Byakuya, But i agree that death list could be little longer.
- In my opinion no. If someone read just last 20 chapters of manga, this battle for him will be Indra and Asura vs Kaguya, actually that whole Asura/Indra reincarnation throw away whole Naruto and Sasuke development that was built for 15 years.
- Key word is official, she was mentioned by Madara, but again Madara's and Obito's stories was there for 300 chapters.
2. Yes, indeed true, but he didn't even come up with Ichigo with when he entered SS for the first time, instead he sent Yoruichi, there must be reason behind that, you can't just call that plot hole, because it's not explained yet.
Mayuri was the one that take over 12th division and Research institue, after Urahara was banished, and as you can see in Mayuri's presents it's forbidden to talk about Urahara, Mayuri don't really like him and he will not listen to him, no matter what Urahara say. The only member that was showed that have some relationship with Urahara is Akon (to some extent), but Akon was rookie at that time and didn't know much. All Urahara's friends were banished from SS (Yoruichi, Tessai, Shinji, Hiyori), so again i really don't see something that Urahara come up with. There were also guys like Kyoraku and Ukitake they most probably were friends with him, but Kyoraku saw Aizen's innocent with his own eyes, there is no way that these two would believe Urahara instead of Aizen. Also Aizen was good guy in everyone's eye (except in Shinji's), noone expected this from Aizen, on the other hand, Urahara originaly come from 2nd division (Assasination squad), so i just see more reason for neutra lpeople to believe Aizen and not Urahara. Also the was who is on highest ground in the SS is C46, so as long as they think that Urahara is bad, he is indeed bad.
- Yes, but Soul King didn't even talk, he yet have to official introduce himself and say some words about all "shits", just like Hagaromo, and as i said before something that it's not explained, can't be called plot hole.
- I think that you are the one who misunderstand me.
-- Some souls are born, in the SS from mother and father. They are born as a baby I think it was stated that Aizen is born this way, he wasn't human in his previous life, actually he didn't have previous life. It was stated in that special about Hitsugaya's birthday. All nobles we know (expect Rukia) are born this way and we have quite many nobles (Kuchiki, Yoruichi, Shiba, Kyoraku, Ukitake, Feng, Omeada and others low ranking family).
-- There are also souls that are born in SS after they die in Human world. They don't have to be born as infant. If someone die as 20 years old in the human world, he will be born in SS with also 20 years, if you had 50 years before your death in the human world, you will be reborn as 50 year old man in SS, in other words they wil and just continue their life in the other dimension. Rukia is the only shinigami (as long as we know) that was born this way. But she can't talk about her previous life, since she died as infant in the human world, that way she was also born in the SS as infant.
- As long as we know, That Fake Zangetsu was one who restricted Ichigo's power form the time when Ichigo become shinigami, but that doesn't mean that he didn't restricted his power from the very beginning. Also, Ichigo was never trained in the first place, so that he can shot arrows, even Uryu who was trained by many years are not skilled with them compared to Wandenrecih. Literally Isshin at that time was Human according to Urahara's words, you will become Human.
3. As i said death don't make manga good. But, ok, i can't either..
- Sorry about that i was one who made a mistake. I wanted to say "noone expecte Aizen didn't give good guys such beat".
- I was talking about Rukia, she was the one who killed As Nodt. That was most probably Kubo's intention at the first. Byakuya die in the first invasion. Rukia train with RG and than stomp As Nodt and revange her brother.
- Well, ok, i don't want to convice you otherwise.
- I didn't say that Naruto's story is boring, i just say that i don't like him. From my point of view character like Naruto are boring, they become so "main stream" in shonen and that's why I in some way like Ichigo, he is not like other shonen main characters. Ichigo's life was also very hard. His mother was killed, his whole life was nearly lie, even his most trusted allies (Fake Zangetsu) lied him.
4. Both Kinkaku and Ginkaku don't seems like someone who can pull out something correctly. They are more like barbarians and they seems more like Naruto, attack front door, instead of attacking someone's back. Raikage was surely kage level shinobi and bodyguards were at least jonin level, just look at the shinobis that where present in both kage meetings. It was at least 4 vs 2 battle, if not even more reinforcements for Tobirama's side.
- I don't see what power had to do with this. My statement was that Neji/Lee/Shino/Kiba/Hinata and others would be better if they are showed fighting some reincarnated shinobis, instead of fighting Zetsu clones.
5. I didn't say that. Did i?
I can also say that even thought Bleach (currently canceled) is second watched anime. And also Bleach 3rd movie sold more copies than all 10 Naruto movies together.
- And how exactly would it be harder to do it in Hueco Mundo than when he actually did it?? He had just as much of a option to use Kido there. What you forget is that Gin's whole plan was to take him down with 1 hit with his Bankais special power which even Aizen didn't know about. I don't think it would be hard to do that before Aizen could use Kido or anything, if he just did it at the right time. And he still had the chance in Fake Karakura town when him, Aizen and Tosen we're trapped. Tosen probably couldn't react before it was too late and even if he'd have to fight Tosen afterwards that shouldn't be a problem since Gin was stronger than him anyways.
- I doubt he let his guard down more than usual just because of the hogyaku. Gin had been working for him for decades as you said, I just can't imagine that Aizen was keeping his guard up when Gin was around after that much time and if he had I doubt he'd forget it just because of the Hogyaku, Aizen isn't stupid.
- Again I don't think that made it a much better situation than any time else. If anything Aizen should be more suspicious of him when he says stuff like that.
- But that's another problem right here: FROM WHAT WE KNOW he only cared about Matsumoto, but we never heard the full story. We've only seen a few pages of backstory for him and even when he died we didn't really learn more about him, except that he was apparently a good guy. I think Gin is a pretty cool character and that's exactly why it annoyed me so much that we never got to see more of his past.
- As good as the Itachi plot twist??? HOW?? Sure it was suprising, but in reality it was pretty irrelevant for the story. It didn't change anything:
- He died just after it turned out that he was a good guy.
- Aizen survived and just changed to a new form.
- Gin wasn't one of the main characters, so his death didn't make that big a difference.
- The only one who cared about him being a good guy was Matsumoto, Aizen just killed him and moved on.
- And since we didn't get much of Gin's backstory we still don't fully know why he did it.
On the other hand Itachi's plot twist turned everything upside down for Sasuke who is one of the very biggest characters in the series. It resulted in him joining the Akatsuki, him fighting together with Edo Itachi later on, then reviving Orochimaru to summon the hokages which made a huge difference in the war. All of that stuff would have happened differently if Itachi hadn't been a good guy. If Gin hadn't been a good guy Ichigo would just have taken him down in 1 hit with his new OP powers and that would be that.
- Well honestly I think there comes a point where there's just too much plot shielding. Bleach and One Piece have both crossed that line, but One Piece makes up for it with a better story than Bleach and some really epic moments along the run. But whatever we weren't discussing One Piece vs. Bleach
- Well I certainly disagree with that. How does it throw away their development?? Even if they're reincarnations of some dudes that died hundreds of years ago they're still first and foremost Naruto and Sasuke. It would be a different story if the manga started by showing us who Indra and Asura we're and followed them for a couple of chapters, then I'd agree with you. (And why wouldn't anybody just read the last 20 chapters anyways
)2. Can't call it a plot hole because it's not explained yet??? Plz it was at the freaking start of the series, Kubo has had years to explain that, if he explains it now it'd just weird.
Fact: We're where never told when Yoruichi left the Soul Society (As far as I remember she left, wasn't banished which was why she could return as a cat with Ichigo and the others while Urahara couldn't. In other words not all Uraharas friends we're banished. And she could certainly convince some people of Uraharas innocence and Aizen being evil (Sui-Fon would most definitely believe her back then). And that's just one step, the more people know of Aizen being evil the more likely they are to convince others to AT THE VERY LEAST keep a close eye on him and make sure he doesn't do anything suspicious. And yes you're probably right about Kyoraku, but I don't see why they shouldn't be able to convince Ukitake, who could then possibly convince Kyoraku.
- Bla bla bla. I personally think Kubo should have answered these questions earlier, they are just too important for us to wait sooo many years to find out.
- Ehhh... What special about Hitsugayas birthday??? In any case: Even if all the nobles are born that way it's still less than half of the important Soul Reapers in the series (What about Hitsugaya himself, Urahara, Renji, Kenpachi, Yamamoto, Unohana, all the Vizards and so on). If Souls can only become souls if they have no memories Kubo should just say it as it is.
- Well I still think it's pretty damn suspicious, you should think that Uryo being a Quincy should be able to tell that Ichigo was a Quincy as well. And Zangetsu restraining his Quincy powers before he even became Shinigami seems weird as well.
3.
Well yea I still think there's too much plot shield in Bleach but whatever.
- Well Rukia getting to finish him off with a Bankai was pretty predictable as well. It was still a pretty cool Bankai though
- Well I don't really think characters like Naruto are that mainstream. Sure there are some characters that share some similarities with him, but none that are THE SAME. And Ichigo's life being a lie was a pretty bad plot twist in my opinion
And his mother dying... Sure that's hard, but losing a family member is DEFINITLY mainstream is shoned (Yea Naruto does that too, I'm just saying it doesn't make him special)4. Well that's still just an assumption. A coup sounds a lot more like an assassination if you ask me. And sure he was kage level, but so is Mei, and I doubt she could beat Kinkaku or Ginkaku
Also Darui only beat them because he got lucky and his "most said word" changed at the last second, he wasn't actually stronger than them.Well your right power doesn't have anything to do with it. What I meant was that Naruto had just gotten KCM and we hadn't seen him in a real fight with it yet. And as I said I agree with Neji and Lee, they should definitely have had more panel time and some real battles in part 2.
5. Say what?? You simply said that you weren't the only one who thought that Bleach > Naruto and I said that the same goes the other way around.
"second watched anime??" Do you mean second most watched anime?? Cause I highly doubt that's the case. And the movies for series such as Naruto and Bleach are usually even worse than fillers, so which movies sold the most is pretty irrelevant if you ask me.
But honestly we're beginning to just repeat ourselves here, so I think this'll be my last comment in this discussion, I still think that Naruto is a way better anime than Bleach, but whatever.
