[VS] Battle of the old Farts!

[KidGamer65]

He smacks him with an enlarged Enma.

Then Onoki evades Enma, has his golem alter his weight and then repeats.

@AGoodBoy. I'll reply later.

 

[KidGamer65]

@bold: I'll definitely need a scan of onoki doing Remote weight manipulation. I've never ever seen him manipulate weight indirectly IIRC.

let me entertain you now.

Here you go.

You must be registered for see links

You must be registered for see links

Madara states he used the Weighted Rock Technique to stop Susanoo, you can see them immobilized after the golem's hand blocks their blades. Unless you believe Onoki touched all those blades at once when they came together (Which is impossible) or that he touched every single one of them before they could even move position in that short amount of time (Which is impossible).

Now, the first claim you made is that hiruzen can't dodge jinton. This is plain out foolish, since hiruzen is very agile[

You must be registered for see links

][

You must be registered for see links

][

You must be registered for see links

], having monkey like reflexes. Jintons have a charge time, and once jinton's spotted, hiruzen knows to instantly initiate a dodge or a counter attack.

You can't be serious here? Showing me a scan of Hiruzen flipping up a wall, jumping away after he saved Naruto from God Tree and also him attempting to completely evade Obito, but managed to only prevent a head shot while his shoulder got hit proves that he can dodge Jinton how exactly? None of these can count as remotely good speed feats let alone speed feats great enough to let him evade Jinton.

Hiruzen isn't dodging

You must be registered for see links

or

You must be registered for see links

with his speed feats. Counter by interrupting it is a possibility but dodging? Nope.

Hiruzen has a few options for a counter attack. If onoki is close enough, hiruzen could simply extend him, as enma extends rather quickly. If onoki is quite far, a simply

You must be registered for see links

would do the trick. Once onoki has fired off the shadow shuriken, it matters not if onoki has enough time to finish his jinton attack since, he'd be so far away (again, because he was so far that shuriken were used over enma as a tactic) that hiruzen could also begin to run away from his position to attempt to dodge. Even if onoki drags the jinton, he'd be leaving himself open to the incoming shuriken. let's not forget that hiruzen has

You must be registered for see links

, therefore he's survived it's use before.

I agree that Enma can stop him if he's close enough, the Shadow Shuriken counter is legit depending on the distance (cause if Onoki is far enough, Jinton will fire before they even reach him), except for the fact that Onoki can stop charging Jinton, evade the Shuriken, fly around Hiruzen, charge Jinton up and fire it at him.

You must be registered for see links

Hiruzen's chances of interrupting with a second counter attack quick enough to stop Onoki who just evaded his first counter attack are very low.

That was only the defence to jinton. Let me move onto the defence to rock golem.
Rock golem is slow. Furthermore, Hiruzen possesses enma which is more than a viable counter to the rock Golem. Simply put, Enma is able to

You must be registered for see links

, at

You must be registered for see links

. The rock golem would never become a threat and, if onoki ever attempted to touch enma(to weight him) he'd be

You must be registered for see links

.

lol, not sure if serious. A smaller Rock Golem formed from the users mouth, thus being formed out of chakra was

You must be registered for see links

Enma isn't going to easily smash through that one let alone a bigger one that Onoki can make. Smashing God Tree isn't a great enough feat to say it can smash through the golem considering we have seen

You must be registered for see links

easily cut it and the

You must be registered for see links

of all things cut through it.

If Enma slams into the golem, the Golem can grab it and Onoki can utilize the weighted rock jutsu to make Enma too heavy for Hiruzen to hold.


Not to mention Moving Core gives Onoki means to send Hiruzen upwards like what happened to Madara, right into the attack of his golem, giving him little time to react,

You must be registered for see links

. Mainly due to the fact that it also causes the target to lose their balance.

You can say Hiruzen tanks with the Enma cage, but at this moment, Onoki uses the Weighted Rock Technique through the Golem's limb and makes Enma too heavy for Hiruzen to use.

The point that completely ends this fight is that enma is able

You must be registered for see links

in staff(swing/move himself in staff form), or ape form completely independent of hiruzen. That means that enma would be able to assault onoki in the air, while hiruzen used ground based assaults and distractions in the form of Fire jutsu and tossing shuriken. If onoki were to use bushin, he'd only be dwindling his chakra reserves since they'd easily be disposed of, while any tight situation for hiruzen could be overcome with shadow clone distraction. Hiruzen would be using far less chakra and stamina to attack and defend, allowing him to win any possible battle of attrition. Onoki would never be able to get off a jinton during the constant onslaught from enma.

Enma can fight in Ape Form, but definitely not staff form, considering staff form requires someone to swing him around as a weapon as he's simply a staff in that state. Enma in Ape Form is little to no trouble for Onoki's Rock Golem, he'd get swatted to the side. Staff form isn't a factor for this strategy as Enma can't fight on his own in that form. Nothing Hiruzen has is putting a scratch on that golem either, definitely not Katon and definitely not Shuriken.

Through all those high speed agile movements(dodging),

You must be registered for see links

and he'd be left a sitting duck.

Dodging what? Most of what Hiruzen has can be tanked by the Golem, which Onoki can rest upon. The only concern is Enma.

 

[Prince Charles]

Lmao kidgamer R.I.P'd this thread.


Onoki rofl stomps low-mid diff.

 

[paratise]

Oonki low-mid diff at most.

A monkey which can happen to be a dildo ain't helping much here.

 

[AGoodBoy]

Here you go.

You must be registered for see links

You must be registered for see links

Madara states he used the Weighted Rock Technique to stop Susanoo, you can see them immobilized after the golem's hand blocks their blades. Unless you believe Onoki touched all those blades at once when they came together (Which is impossible) or that he touched every single one of them before they could even move position in that short amount of time (Which is impossible).

The bold is literally the most likely scenario. We have never had any hints in the manga that onoki's rock Golem can perform Weighted jutsu, or any jutsu for that matter. In fact, they're nothing like his rock bushin as far as we know.

Onoki Touched gaara's gourd and

You must be registered for see links

, yet he can't Weight all 5 susano'o, together, while they're all converging at one common location to the point where they all touch? Stating the golems 'should have been able to move in that short time span' does not do your argument jutsice as they were already moving down with incredible moment, only being stopped by the hand blocking their continued path. All onoki would have needed to do at that point was touch and activate the second they safely reached within his range. Onoki already performed Weighted Rock on Muu while he was still

You must be registered for see links

form his forward momentum. In your own scan, we see onoki near the Rock arm hinting to us that he most possibly performed said jutsu while his Rock Hand stopped the swords a few feet above his head.

You can't be serious here? Showing me a scan of Hiruzen flipping up a wall, jumping away after he saved Naruto from God Tree and also him attempting to completely evade Obito, but managed to only prevent a head shot while his shoulder got hit proves that he can dodge Jinton how exactly? None of these can count as remotely good speed feats let alone speed feats great enough to let him evade Jinton.

Hiruzen isn't dodging

You must be registered for see links

or

You must be registered for see links

with his speed feats. Counter by interrupting it is a possibility but dodging? Nope.

My apologies, but I have Very Little to work with feat wise for hiruzen. As to your scan about the jinton contained jinton beam against FTW. Let's not forget that that would not only destroy most, if not all of onoki's chakra reserves, but it could still be dodged as Madara

You must be registered for see links

by selectively allowing it to hit the portion of his body he wanted it to.

In terms of speed feat, let's forget that the same Juubito, that Hiruzen was able to partially dodge, did

You must be registered for see links

to Hashirama and Tobirama. Furthermore, I would like to state that the scan I produced was of hiruzen using base speed, in order for a ninja to

You must be registered for see links

(short burst of high speed) he simply needs to

You must be registered for see links

and expel it to provide a large enough force to boost what he is able to produce on his own with his muscles. As a hokage, hiruzen's chakra control is going to be far superior to that sasuke allowing him to pour more chakra into his feet and produce a greater burst of speed to aid dodging of jinton. Let's not forget that jinton is simply, about,

You must be registered for see links

therefore, not much distance needs to be covered to dodge it. Assuming Onoki is as far as you state(out of reach of enma and shuriken), the jinton beam(only viable jinton at this point) would have quite a bit of distance to travel in order to reach hiruzen, giving him even more time to dodge that straight out attack; If onoki were to come closer to reduce the travel time(jinton beam travels not spawns - obviously can't be shown effectively on a page), he opens himself up more to the other counters of enma and Shuriken.

In any case, again, this Isn't decent evidence of his speed feats, but I really do not have much scans to go off of... I will have to leave my speed counter at this.

@bold: I'm glad I don't have to waste my time proving this correct.

I agree that Enma can stop him if he's close enough, the Shadow Shuriken counter is legit depending on the distance (cause if Onoki is far enough, Jinton will fire before they even reach him), except for the fact that Onoki can stop charging Jinton, evade the Shuriken, fly around Hiruzen, charge Jinton up and fire it at him.

You must be registered for see links

Hiruzen's chances of interrupting with a second counter attack quick enough to stop Onoki who just evaded his first counter attack are very low.

Like I stated above, If onoki is indeed that far away, Hiruzen simply has that much more seconds to travel a short distance while jinton travels his way. All he has to do is make one powerful jump and he's out of the conical range of a Jinton beam.

Jinton's charge speed is indeed long. In the scan you exampled, the speed cannot be effectively shown. Onoki had previously willed his way out of the sleeping effects of the spores. At that point, he had quite a bit of time to pull off an attack due to the fact that he was already negating the sleeping effects of the pores with will. If jinton was indeed fast, he would have never fallen asleep because he would be able to destroy FTW before the initial sleeping effects kicked in since even

You must be registered for see links

but couldn't, even though her

You must be registered for see links

. Before you attempt to counter that mei scan, just note that she had quite a small window of time to execute her jutsu. Tsunade had smashed madara away and mei nor the other kage would have no idea what his next move would be. Madara then decided to use Wildfire extermination some feet away from Tsunade; at which point mei had to spot the attack, process it, flip up her hand seal, and perform her jutsu. Bu the point she quite possibly did all of this, the jutsu was mere feet in front of tsunade, yet the defensive suiton made it in time.

To further showcase the sever lag time of jinton's cast speed, i will point you to these[

You must be registered for see links

][

You must be registered for see links

][

You must be registered for see links

] scans.
In Scan 1, we see that Onoki has begun to charge up his jinton while naruto is falling through the air. In the next panel, naruto proceeds to jump of sand with chakra arms, and hurtle himself back to Muu. Needless to say, Naruto

You must be registered for see links

before he's able to fire off his jinton. That's at least 2 seconds of lag time right there.

In the second scan, Onoki moves infront of sasuke, charges his cube and forms it around sasuke to materialise him. Now, within this time spam, Obito was able to spot onoki attempting this; Warp into kamui dimension; Warp back out at sasuke's location; then, warp sasuke into the dimension with him. I'm sure I don't need to show the scan, because you know this, but onoki takes a while to warp himself instead of phasing, and then takes even longer to warp someone with him. He was able to do this 4-5 step defence within the time it took jinton to activate.

In the third scan, we can see akimichi spotting Onoki's jinton(which he started up the scan before). The panel before last, we still see akamichi in the same spot while the jinton is now preparing to finish it's final phase to fire. Then, on the next page, we see akamichi

You must be registered for see links

onoki. Essentially, Akamichi was able to move the distance requried to dodge jinton, to restrain it's caster.

Now, Let me get the rest of this counter straight. You're stating this, right?

1) Onoki starts up jinton
2) Hiruzen Counters with shuriken
3) Onoki stops jinton
4) Onoki dodges shuriken and starts to fly around hiruzen
5) Hiruzen can't see his opponent moving while his sight is not being blocked
6) onoki reaches behind Hiruzen
7) Onoki charges up a new jinton
8) Hiruzens sitting there looking at the old spot "shit, where'd he go?? He was so far away, that I couldn't see him fly 180 degrees around me with this Wide angle i have due to his Distance and the human eye's near 180 degree vision. Damn let me sit here and not look for him. He couldn't possibly have flown behind me, where I can't see"
9) Jinton fires and Hiruzen dies.

Is that about right? Well, it does seem legit...

lol, not sure if serious. A smaller Rock Golem formed from the users mouth, thus being formed out of chakra was

You must be registered for see links

Enma isn't going to easily smash through that one let alone a bigger one that Onoki can make. Smashing God Tree isn't a great enough feat to say it can smash through the golem considering we have seen

You must be registered for see links

easily cut it and the

You must be registered for see links

of all things cut through it.

If Enma slams into the golem, the Golem can grab it and Onoki can utilize the weighted rock jutsu to make Enma too heavy for Hiruzen to hold.


Not to mention Moving Core gives Onoki means to send Hiruzen upwards like what happened to Madara, right into the attack of his golem, giving him little time to react,

You must be registered for see links

. Mainly due to the fact that it also causes the target to lose their balance.

You can say Hiruzen tanks with the Enma cage, but at this moment, Onoki uses the Weighted Rock Technique through the Golem's limb and makes Enma too heavy for Hiruzen to use.

First of all, that rock golem was completely defeated due to that C1/C2 explosion. A C2 explosion that sasuke was able to

You must be registered for see links

with CS. That's not necessarily a feat to tout, sorry. It matters not that Gunbai(in the hands of friggin madara) and tobirama's slicing suiton was able to do the same. The golem is rock, it can be smashed, especially by a staff strong enough to push back the kyuubi.

Already countered golem using Weighted jutsu so that second paragraph is moot. If onoki attempts this himself, he's raped by a partially tranformed claw to his face.

I don't know what third paragraph is meant for... Why would mobile core need to be used to toss him into the golem? It really isn't that high up. But, Let's entertain this. In the case this were to be used, enma simply transforms into his cage. It's simple as that. Since the golem can't use the weighted jutsu, nothing's weighting enma. If onoki is on The golems back then he's now within range of hiruzen's jutsu. Hiruzen could simply toss a Dragon flame bomb at him. Sure, the golem would tank it, but now Hiruzen and Enma evade through the smoke and confusion. Conversely, Hiruzen could use doton Wall to block the path of the golem when it's approaching for X, Y reason to provide ample time to evade. Infact, for that matter, if onoki were to use a jinton, Hiruzen could toss up a Doton wall and start to evade while onoki's lost his line of sight. Hiruzen then leaves a shadow clone behind to take the jinton so that he can flank onoki when his guard is dropped thinking his opponent materialized.

Enma can fight in Ape Form, but definitely not staff form, considering staff form requires someone to swing him around as a weapon as he's simply a staff in that state. Enma in Ape Form is little to no trouble for Onoki's Rock Golem, he'd get swatted to the side. Staff form isn't a factor for this strategy as Enma can't fight on his own in that form. Nothing Hiruzen has is putting a scratch on that golem either, definitely not Katon and definitely not Shuriken.

Last person who said this was pateuvesiliu. Same shit, Different person Leggo!

Hiruzen has been completely restrained from Tip to toe

You must be registered for see links

. *as the anime clarified for us* he then taps that branch close to his right hand[last panel] to

You must be registered for see links

(he bit his finger 2 pages eariler). Take notice of how far enma is from hiruzen. You see it right? Now, enma

You must be registered for see links

. Who could have possibly swung enma? Hiruzen? Nope, he was completely restrained and not in reach of enma, especially not to swing it in that many. Orochimaru? Sure, maybe he was being a good sport.

Next, We see hiruzen about to go

You must be registered for see links

with enma resting against the wall to his right, in the last panel. now, wait for it....

-

You must be registered for see links

.
-

You must be registered for see links

(center panel)...
-Alright, now he.... Nope...

You must be registered for see links

.
-Ok, we're here now, I swear. Hashirama clasps his hands to use mokuton and enma...

You must be registered for see links

.
-Shit,

You must be registered for see links

!
-nope.

You must be registered for see links

. Who could've done that??? Not hiruzen. Damn that's a good staff.

More proof? More proof.
Now,

You must be registered for see links

, we see enma partially transform to lurch at orochimaru. But who the hell is that in the bottom panel!?!? Hiruzen babay. This magic strip pole could move.

You, see, enma is indeed able to move of his own accord, even in free space. I will try to make this even clearer by stating that enma behaves exactly like the sword of kusanagi. Where the sword pierces, enma crushes. Where the sword stretches, enma does too. Where it moves on it's own(albeit with some instruction from oro) enma moves with 0 input from hiruzen and could also partially transform. The only major difference is that enma is a living creature while kusanagi is just a sword.
What we have to understand is that hiruzen's purpose is to give enma more 'flexibility' and fluid movement. Essentially, hiruzen uses his own weapons mastery to swing enma around gracefully to overwhelm the opponent, but enma does not require hiruzen to move in staff form of make any form of transformation. Enma acts as a second shinobi near hiruzen with his own special abilities.

Dodging what? Most of what Hiruzen has can be tanked by the Golem, which Onoki can rest upon. The only concern is Enma.

And that is why onoki loses. That enma. Enma helps hiruzen hit onoki, and covers hiruzen through means of distraction and Hiruzen does the same for enma.

---

Summary

-Enma jumps, transforms, extends and swings himself to smack onoki out of the air.
-Hiruzen Tosses enma staff up, it extends and smacks onoki out of the air
-Hiruzen tosses enma at onoki, jumps to the left and tosses shuriken. Enma then extends when onoki tries to evade one and smacks him out of the air.
-If onoki attempts CQC on enma, he gets partially transformed claw to the face
-If onoki attempts CQC on Hiruzen, he gets riddled with explosivee tags. Sure, he'd pull off the weighted jutsu, but he'd die doing it
-If onoki summons rock golems, enma smashes it. Hiruzen uses a doton wall to help him evade it.
-Onoki tosses enma after onoki to pressure him while he does the same from another end, forcing onoki to use the golem defencesively
-If onoki uses any deadly jutsu that's not jinton, enma transforms into a cage and tanks
-If onoki does jinton high up, hiruzen either shushins away and dodges, or tosses up a doton wall and shadow clone to help him dash for cover. Onoki then proceeds to waste his jinton beam and all his chakra on a clone. Falls to earth and dies
-If onoki attempts jinton close, it's disrupted

EDIT: When I say cover, what I mean is just safety away from that danger zone. Onoki would have 1 to 2 shadow clones + hiruzen to pick from to follow with his sustained jinton beam. If he chooses wrong he wasted near all his chakra... Even if he chooses correctly, hiruzen and his clones converge and dash off again in multiple directions confusing onoki.

Onoki wins? Ha! I think not.

---

PS This will probably be my last post on this matter for a while. Got to prepare for Yo Pappy for tomorrow.
Hope he's not too brutal on me

 

[AGoodBoy]

Lmao kidgamer R.I.P'd this thread.


Onoki rofl stomps low-mid diff.

Lmaoooo don't be hating cause Ima schooling you in the tourney.

Oonki low-mid diff at most.

A monkey which can happen to be a dildo ain't helping much here.

lmfaoooooooo hahahaha nice one.

 

[Rainbow Dash]

Hiruzen blitzes.

Spoiler

At least Prime Hiruzen does.

You must be registered for see images

 

[EZQ]

Hiruzen blitzes.

Spoiler

At least Prime Hiruzen does.

You must be registered for see images

Prime Hiruzen is fanfiction, and he was never stated to be "fast"... he's well rounded..

Oonoki stomps

 

[Curse Mark]

If anyone would like to be humored, I can offer a strategy to tell how Onoki beats Hiruzen in an overcomplicated strategic manner... without jinton!

 

[Tartarus]

Now, the first claim you made is that hiruzen can't dodge jinton. This is plain out foolish, since hiruzen is very agile[

You must be registered for see links

][

You must be registered for see links

][

You must be registered for see links

], having monkey like reflexes. Jintons have a charge time, and once jinton's spotted, hiruzen knows to instantly initiate a dodge or a counter attack.

:| Are you seriously using a scan of Hiruzen failing to dodge and getting his arm blasted off as an agility feat?

You must be registered for see images

Hiruzen has a few options for a counter attack.
The problem for onoki is that he constantly needs to waste chakra to fight, whereas hiruzen can make enma do 90% of the work while he does is swing enma, or distract onoki etc.

Further proving my point that Hiruzen's summon makes a better ninja than he does. I'm not sure if you're trolling

 

[AGoodBoy]

:| Are you seriously using a scan of Hiruzen failing to dodge and getting his arm blasted off as an agility feat?

You must be registered for see images

Further proving my point that Hiruzen's summon makes a better ninja than he does. I'm not sure if you're trolling

not bothering with your first sentence.

maybe old hiruzen, but not prime hiruzen. Prime hiruzen was stated to be using shadow clones efficiently during combat, making him a better force than enma. as to the bold, just leave. Why would i be trolling? Kishi already canonically called hiruzen the strongest kage of his time... IE stronger than Onoki :|