Since it seems we're on opposite ends when it comes to levels rating of the two, and I'm the one who made the thread, I'll start by explaining why I think Baki is stronger.
The only time we've seen someone use pure flesh (and bones) to block a steel weapon is when Tsunade defended Naruto from Orochimaru. But she did that with her upper body. Baki used a bare hand to block a sword strike (flesh is weak to piercing damage), and the wiki describeds the sword strike as being capable of going through rocks. And we know such is impressive because Asuma impressed Naruto with his wind blades simply going through a tree (but stopping at a rock). To make it worse, Asuma said making it even stronger may be dangrous to a Naruto who was nowhere in the direction of the knives. So clearly such power is reaaaaally good. So for Baki to block something like that (slightly stronger, actually) with a single hand . . . Puts his durability at crazy level. Raikage have to use lightning armour for that.
When Haku used a single hand for hand signs, Kakashi considered it well above his own skill. Minato, Killer B and a few others were also considered crazy genius becuase they can use one hand. So for Baki to use ninjutsu without even casting hand seals . . . Above even genius like Minato! We've only seen such chakra control with people already utilising chakra techniques like sage mode . . .
Now the first two used direct showings, but now I'll have to ask for your logical side coz I don't have a direct scaling model.
Baki was entrusted with many things
First was to be team leader for Sand siblings. Now this is major because they are royalty. Not even Chiyo was asked to come out of retirement. So logic says Baki is trusted more than Chiyo to protect them (other villages would want Jinchuuriki, bandits like Gato would want ransom money and hire jonin like Zabuza), which puts him above Lady Chiyo in ability.
Second was to guard Gaara specifically, while also controlling him. Now Kakashi and Yamato were called in Naruto specifically because of their hax, not because of their level of ability. So that puts Baki above them in level of ability, since he doesn't have hax counters. Also, we know that Gaara is the type who respects strength (back then), so it means Baki is strong enough to command Gaara, who was munching chunin and (I think) jonin for lunch. Gaara also demonstrated a mini-beast mode which could trouble Gamabunta (whom Jiraiya respects). So that puts Baki above that beast mode mini-version. So the strength of characters like Gai, Asuma and others was not good enough to look after a Jinchuuriki who is even less developed than Gaara, but Baki was entrusted with him.
Third, Baki was entrusted by Orochimaru to lead that side of his most important life goal. Now unless Orochimaru would entrust fodder to lead a charge against the strongest village, with Hyuga clan, Kakashi, Asuma and others, it only makes sense that Orochimaru himself considers Baki far above even jonin like Kakashi.
I'll close off with another showing based arguement. When Baki fought Genma, he fought someone who was a previous bodygaurd of Minato and could partially use FTG. That puts Genma at kage guard level, whom we saw at Gokage Summit could clash with MS Sasuke (Chojuro, implied weakest, pushed his chakra armour through a wall with a single attack) and defeat his peers (Suigetsu, who causally beat Jugo, who clashed with V1 Raikage and had everyone genuinely worried with his attacks) with out too much difficulty. So that puts Genma in the same group of people as V1 Raikage. So simply clashing makes Baki above jonin level, again. But it goes further. Baki had to not kill Genma or everyone watching would jump him, but he also had to make it look like a close fight (where Genma can win) or else others would tag team on him. That balanced fighting is even tougher than what Akatsuki do (mustn't kill jinchuuriki) and those guys have special abilities that help (Kisame slowly eats chakra, Deidara uses precise bombs and evasion, Hidan inflicts precise wounds, SPoP eat chakra and seals, etc) with that while Baki has simple combat tools. So that puts Baki ahead of even them (maybe not, since Genma should be weaker than Jinchuuriki). To close it off, when Kakashi saw that Genma could not win (he looked struggling for breath), he didn't try to fight Baki, but instead told him to scram. So whatever Kakashi saw told him that Baki was not gonna be healthy fight (and that Baki was holding back).
So all in all, we see Baki clearly outperform people like Tsunade, Minato and Akatsuki in their own specialty. Even if there was reasoning, it would weigh less than his performances, never mind justifying why he should be the sole exception in such a prestigious group of people. Not just an exception, but so much weaker he should simply be jonin level? Seems too much for me . . .
So your role, if I haven't convinced you, is to:
- provide reasons why I haven't convinced you
- if reasons are debatable (like, sometimes it just doesn't 'feel' right, and we can't really debate feelings, although I do respect them a lot), then they must poke holes in my points
- simultaneously, you must show why you think Itachi is at a level that is above Baki (either my understanding of Baki or your own, please specify for clarity)
- at minimum, Itachi doesn't need to be above Baki, but maybe have a counter to his abilities (like how Shikamaru could beat Hidan because he had a counter to him). Many fights are not about levels but rather counters.
Take your time. Also, if you yourself ever wanna discuss your own character placements, feel free to tag me.
"The only time we've seen someone use pure flesh (and bones) to block a steel weapon is when Tsunade defended Naruto from Orochimaru. But she did that with her upper body."
First off, she didnt block anything... orochimaru stabbed her through the chest, then sliced her chest. Basicaly same thing happened when madaras wood clone susasnoo stabbed her through the chest with susasnoo sword (twice if i remember correctly). Secondly, Kakashi stopped Zabuzas giant wind shuriken with just his arm, obito stopped suigetsus exucutioners sword with one arm.
"Baki used a bare hand to block a sword strike (flesh is weak to piercing damage), and the wiki describeds the sword strike as being capable of going through rocks."
I just rewatched baki vs hayate, and its bakis flak jacket that stops the blade... along with his hand. But it seems logical to me that baki would grab hayates sword so that hayate wouldnt pull it out. Also right before he kills hayate he says "stopping a physical sword is easy"
"And we know such is impressive because Asuma impressed Naruto with his wind blades simply going through a tree (but stopping at a rock). To make it worse, Asuma said making it even stronger may be dangrous to a Naruto who was nowhere in the direction of the knives."
Killer B threw a raiton enhanced pencil through a tree...that was more impressive than asumas wind blades.
"So for Baki to block something like that (slightly stronger, actually) with a single hand . . . Puts his durability at crazy level. Raikage have to use lightning armour for that."
The Raikage took MS Sasukes Chidori to the stomach and shook it off like it was nothing.... Baki took Hayates sword swing to the chest (Flak Jacket) and was wounded (blood was drawn), baki does not have raikage durability.
"When Haku used a single hand for hand signs, Kakashi considered it well above his own skill. Minato, Killer B and a few others were also considered crazy genius becuase they can use one hand. So for Baki to use ninjutsu without even casting hand seals . . . Above even genius like Minato! We've only seen such chakra control with people already utilising chakra techniques like sage mode . . ."
Yes it is rare for shinobi to wield 1 handed signs and the majority are prodigys that do, do it. (Itachi, sasuke, minato, haku,) but bakis not doing one handed signs for his wind blade thats just good chakra control... kinda how Kabuto doesnt use hand signs for his chakra scalpel.
"Baki was entrusted with many things
First was to be team leader for Sand siblings. Now this is major because they are royalty. Not even Chiyo was asked to come out of retirement. So logic says Baki is trusted more than Chiyo to protect them"
As a veteran, Chiyo and her brother Ebizo possess great wisdom, such that Baki requested their assistance in the village's greatest danger. However, they had little motivation to serve Sunagakure any longer, as they retired and felt that the next generation should look out for themselves.
"other villages would want Jinchuuriki, bandits like Gato would want ransom money and hire jonin like Zabuza), which puts him above Lady Chiyo in ability."
Chiyo was Kage level or at the very least on the cusp of kage level....bakis wind blade has no answer for 10 Chikamatsu poison puppets.
"Second was to guard Gaara specifically, while also controlling him. Now Kakashi and Yamato were called in Naruto specifically because of their hax, not because of their level of ability. So that puts Baki above them in level of ability, since he doesn't have hax counters"
What are kakashi and yamatos hax?
"Also, we know that Gaara is the type who respects strength (back then), so it means Baki is strong enough to command Gaara, who was munching chunin and (I think) jonin for lunch."
Everyone in the Sand village except for Rasa (4th Kazekage) was scared of Gaara/Shukaku.
"Gaara also demonstrated a mini-beast mode which could trouble Gamabunta (whom Jiraiya respects). So that puts Baki above that beast mode mini-version."
Partial Shukaku transformation is not troubling Gamabunta.... Gamabunta was fighting with the FULL Tailed Beast transformation.
Also respect doesnt mean anything... Manda doesnt respect Orochimaru...but Orochimaru could kill Manda if he wanted to.
"So the strength of characters like Gai, Asuma and others was not good enough to look after a Jinchuuriki who is even less developed than Gaara, but Baki was entrusted with him"
Kakashi was looking after Jinchuuriki naruto....and he became hokage.
Third, Baki was entrusted by Orochimaru to lead that side of his most important life goal. Now unless Orochimaru would entrust fodder to lead a charge against the strongest village, with Hyuga clan, Kakashi, Asuma and others, it only makes sense that Orochimaru himself considers Baki far above even jonin like Kakashi.
Orochimaru also entrusted Fodder Sound 4 for one of his most important missions of his life to get sasuke. He entrusted Kabuto to deal with Baki....b/c Orochimaru was gunna deal with the 3rd Hokage.
"I'll close off with another showing based arguement. When Baki fought Genma, he fought someone who was a previous bodygaurd of Minato and could partially use FTG. That puts Genma at kage guard level, whom we saw at Gokage Summit could clash with MS Sasuke (Chojuro, implied weakest, pushed his chakra armour through a wall with a single attack)"
I will agree that genma is a step above chojuro, but in all fairness, Sasuke was fighting like 6 people at FKS.... I highly doubt chojuro would have done or even landed anything on sasuke had it been 1v1.
"Suigetsu, who causally beat Jugo, who clashed with V1 Raikage and had everyone genuinely worried with his attacks) with out too much difficulty. So that puts Genma in the same group of people as V1 Raikage."
Jugo got blitzed by the Raikage in V1...he probly could have taken jugo in base. Genmas no where near kage level...
"Baki had to not kill Genma or everyone watching would jump him, but he also had to make it look like a close fight (where Genma can win) or else others would tag team on him."
The Sand village was attacking Konoha...there is no fair fights...there basically at war now.
"So that puts Baki ahead of even them (maybe not, since Genma should be weaker than Jinchuuriki)."
Every Jinchuuriki except gaara can do Tailed Beast Bomb....how Tf does baki or genma stop that?
"To close it off, when Kakashi saw that Genma could not win (he looked struggling for breath), he didn't try to fight Baki, but instead told him to scram. So whatever Kakashi saw told him that Baki was not gonna be healthy fight (and that Baki was holding back)."
Kakashi Sharingan pre-cog can easily deal with bakis wind blade...
"So all in all, we see Baki clearly outperform people like Tsunade, Minato and Akatsuki in their own specialty. Even if there was reasoning, it would weigh less than his performances, never mind justifying why he should be the sole exception in such a prestigious group of people. Not just an exception, but so much weaker he should simply be jonin level? Seems too much for me . . ."
I scale Baki somewhere around Asumas level mabey a bit higher...
"simultaneously, you must show why you think Itachi is at a level that is above Baki (either my understanding of Baki or your own, please specify for clarity)"
Theres like 100 naruto characters and Itachi is easily in top 10, top 15 most powerful Shinobi in Naruto (not including Boruto)
I thought this was a general comon sense consensus...
"at minimum, Itachi doesn't need to be above Baki, but maybe have a counter to his abilities (like how Shikamaru could beat Hidan because he had a counter to him). Many fights are not about levels but rather counters."
Shikamaru didnt have a counter for Hidan...that was PREP TIME. If he did have a counter for Hidan then he would have done it the first time they fought and asuma wouldnt of had to die.
