[Discussion] Bad Faith

N o i r

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I was rereading Sartre and one of his concepts in Bad Faith stuck out to me: we create social norms, moral and ethic codes, civil laws, and religion as a means to escape our responsibility to authentically exist. Our authenticity is hindered by our fear to take responsibility for our actions. I was relating that (ironically) to my own spiritual practices.

To understand it I wanted to break it down into our basic evolutionary design and then incorporate the inception of moral indoctrination into our basic primal self. Simply put our species exists by the three f's: feed, fight, and f***. These inherently create societal conflict due to competition of resources, which in turn created the basis of moral and ethic codes (and religion) to help regulate conflict. But does moral and ethic law inhibit authenticity? Social norms as well are fluid and ever changing, waxing and waning with public opinion.

So I thought does my religion hinder my true self? The Buddha taught that the true self, or awakened enlightened self, is within us all. It is free from craving, free from suffering, but our basic nature is to crave food, power, and procreate. Cessation of craving ends suffering, but is ending suffering just a way to escape our innate responsibilities? Are people even capable of taking responsibility for their actions without relying on religion, social norms, laws...etc? People are always stating that the world would be better without religion. If we removed it would things change for the better? That is highly suspect. "Better" I suppose could be subjective. In counter to Sartre, if our true self is to appeal to our basic fundamental needs and take responsibility for our actions, is that an enlightened person? They would by definition be authentic on a primal level as even our concept of Self is impermanent and fluid. To me they are both correct. Our primal self is our true self, whereas the enlightened self (in a Buddhist sense) is the evolved self.

Our society is like a blueprint, a mechanism, a structure that works together in order to keep life as we know it; balanced or at least that's the goal.
We, as people are taught these mechanics, the way things are done, how we should be have, what is expect of us etc.. you get the idea and religion plays a big role in the lives of "some" folks. I say some folks, because I myself am not religious, I began to question the idea of a deity around 12 years old when I began to comprehend some of the things written on it by carefully examining it and viewing the world and the facts thrown around and all over me. It took me some time to fully let go completely, basically fear is what kept me from going 100% Atheist and wanting to find a better system of belief. This may fall into that sense of "social norm" that we all so desperately want to fit into or wish to comply with.


I can tell you though, that someone people can probably live good and authentic lives without religion, but without laws and social norms?? I'd be hard to escape most of this unless you decided to raise a civilization in the north pole to study the changes and see what results from it. Some people are probably literally "morally just" because of religion, if you take that away, they might go batshit crazy or be really nasty individuals. Now this isn't a fact, just a thought based on another thought from this:

When religious people do "good things" they are often doing so in conditioned response to an ethereal reward/punishment set of beliefs. When non-believers do "good things" its because they want to do them.

^How much of that statement about religious people is true? how about those who are not believers. I personally never felt the need to have an deity to tell me what's right or wrong or to be rewarded with "heaven" for my good deeds.
Perhaps a religious person can say that?

Open mindness and the capability to make certain choices in life that don't harm anyone or the environment, to me at least; it'd be close to being enlightened. I doubt there's many people who can reach a "true" level of being 100% "enlightened"

My girlfriend and I were talking about some similar stuff and she mentioned a theory, where you have 4 levels of open mindedness, but sadly she can't remember the theory's name though I'm quoting her here:


First one had 80% of the world in it. Unaware, unable to think and question and unaware that they are unaware. Basically, tend to be a mindless sheep for the most part. Don't wish to be open minded, explore themselves and work towards self development.

The second one had where you are aware and you begin the first stages. You are emo because you are questioning your self identity, you are questioning things, not understanding why most people are so stupid, forming opinions, starting self development, working towards being open minded. You are beginning to see the world for what it is.


And the other two, she has forgotten but I'm guessing the last one has something to do with being "fully aware" and capable of understanding things. You can say, Siddhārtha Gautama reached the last level.

Then also, despite being an Atheist, I do believe religion to be a double edge sword. While it may help people spiritually through tough times and it may even fix a social issue, it can also cause some and history has showed that over and over, we still see it today.



That's the reason why spirituality and religion are completely separate from each other. Spirituality confronts your own psychological weaknesses directly. Religion soothes your delusions. Some exorcist show on tv showed this dumbass Christian from usa that claimed he was haunted by a demon that made him think perverted thoughts throughout his life. Dude can't even accept he's a pervert.

My dad (narrow-minded Christian) said the Buddha wallpaintings of mine are blasphemy and people worship it. Has anyone confirmed a Buddha statue being worshipped? (legit question)

No, ignorant people will call buddhism a religion(as they started to call atheism a religion too) and perhaps even those who claim to follow it will. This is due to the misconception that everything that's "followed" as a style of living that incorporates (life teachings/guidance) has to be labeled a religion.
Siddhārtha Gautama told his followers that he didn't wish to be worshiped, for he was no god and all he brought to them, were teachings to the path of enlightenment.
 
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YowYan

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Our society is like a blueprint, a mechanism, a structure that works together in order to keep life as we know it; balanced or at least that's the goal.
We, as people are taught these mechanics, the way things are done, how we should be have, what is expect of us etc.. you get the idea and religion plays a big role in the lives of "some" folks. I say some folks, because I myself am not religious, I began to question the idea of a deity around 12 years old when I began to comprehend some of the things written on it by carefully examining it and viewing the world and the facts thrown around and all over me. It took me some time to fully let go completely, basically fear is what kept me from going 100% Atheist and wanting to find a better system of belief. This may fall into that sense of "social norm" that we all so desperately want to fit into or wish to comply with.


I can tell you though, that someone people can probably live good and authentic lives without religion, but without laws and social norms?? I'd be hard to escape most of this unless you decided to raise a civilization in the north pole to study the changes and see what results from it. Some people are probably literally "morally just" because of religion, if you take that away, they might go batshit crazy or be really nasty individuals. Now this isn't a fact, just a thought based on another thought from this:



^How much of that statement about religious people is true? how about those who are not believers. I personally never felt the need to have an deity to tell me what's right or wrong or to be rewarded with "heaven" for my good deeds.
Perhaps a religious person can say that?

Open mindness and the capability to make certain choices in life that don't harm anyone or the environment, to me at least; it'd be close to being enlightened. I doubt there's many people who can reach a "true" level of being 100% "enlightened"

My girlfriend and I were talking about some similar stuff and she mentioned a theory, where you have 4 levels of open mindedness, but sadly she can't remember the theory's name though I'm quoting her here:





And the other two, she has forgotten but I'm guessing the last one has something to do with being "fully aware" and capable of understanding things. You can say, Siddhārtha Gautama reached the last level.

Then also, despite being an Atheist, I do believe religion to be a double edge sword. While it may help people spiritually through tough times and it may even fix a social issue, it can also cause some and history has showed that over and over, we still see it today.





No, ignorant people will call buddhism a religion(as they started to call atheism a religion too) and perhaps even those who claim to follow it will. This is due to the misconception that everything that's "followed" as a style of living that incorporates (life teachings/guidance) has to be labeled a religion.
Siddhārtha Gautama told his followers that he didn't wish to be worshiped, for he was no god and all he brought to them, were teachings to the path of enlightenment.

Exactly. Funny to hear my old man spouting nonsense and afterwards telling me I have a lot to learn. He incorporated his religious logic into his parenting. Making no sense but demanding respect regardless.
 

Callypigia

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In Existentialism, the definition of one's being is in the individual, in Communism, the individual is defined by the group/commune. Existentialism in itself is diametrically opposed to Dialectic Materialism, therefore they are incompatible, Jeannie tried to reconcile the two in his book The Critique of Dialectical Reason which ended up with him eating his own words, as the saying goes one cannot have cake and eat it too.

I think you inadvertently answered my question for me. I agree with you in terms of Western Existentialism; Sartre's concept of authenticity was based on Kierkegaard who of course believed that authenticity was finding meaning in one's self independent of society and religion (the entire premise of this thread). That did make Sartre a hypocrite for supporting communism, where the individual supports the collective whole, which is probably why he became a supporter of anarchism later. Complete self governing rule would be the pinnacle of Western Existentialism.

Which comes to my point: My religious and philosophical beliefs aren't tied to Western Existentialism, but Eastern philosophy. I truly believe that communism is the true governing body to express human collective potential because it understands the parts do not equal the whole; our vessel exists to help others not ourselves. There is no true Self, it's fluid, impermanent, and a product of our own subjective perceptions in a world with thousand of perceptions. What concept we have of Self is entirely rooted in others. A hermit has no identity without people. Authenticity is seeing reality objectively, free of the Self. In that sense Buddhism does not hinder authenticity, it simply defines it differently than Sartre.

Thanks Derp.

:hooray:
 

Callypigia

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Our society is like a blueprint, a mechanism, a structure that works together in order to keep life as we know it; balanced or at least that's the goal.
We, as people are taught these mechanics, the way things are done, how we should be have, what is expect of us etc.. you get the idea and religion plays a big role in the lives of "some" folks. I say some folks, because I myself am not religious, I began to question the idea of a deity around 12 years old when I began to comprehend some of the things written on it by carefully examining it and viewing the world and the facts thrown around and all over me. It took me some time to fully let go completely, basically fear is what kept me from going 100% Atheist and wanting to find a better system of belief. This may fall into that sense of "social norm" that we all so desperately want to fit into or wish to comply with.


I can tell you though, that someone people can probably live good and authentic lives without religion, but without laws and social norms?? I'd be hard to escape most of this unless you decided to raise a civilization in the north pole to study the changes and see what results from it. Some people are probably literally "morally just" because of religion, if you take that away, they might go batshit crazy or be really nasty individuals. Now this isn't a fact, just a thought based on another thought from this:

It may be impossible to separate civil morality from religious morality as both have intertwined and cohabited since the dawn of civilization. Even most of the atheists I know, if not all of them, have a moral structure based on a communal or familial religious upbringing even if they chose to find their own spiritual or aspiritual path. So it can't be fully argued that atheism (again hard atheism) produces the same moral structure.

No, ignorant people will call buddhism a religion(as they started to call atheism a religion too) and perhaps even those who claim to follow it will. This is due to the misconception that everything that's "followed" as a style of living that incorporates (life teachings/guidance) has to be labeled a religion.
Siddhārtha Gautama told his followers that he didn't wish to be worshiped, for he was no god and all he brought to them, were teachings to the path of enlightenment.

I'm sorry to say that Buddhism is a religion my friend. I think it's trendy in Western society to separate Buddhism from it's religious, spiritual, psychological, and philosophical properties to meet the needs of the more spiritual Western atheist. Religion is defined as a set of beliefs concerning the cause, nature, and purpose of the universe, especially when considered as the creation of a superhuman agency or agencies, usually involving devotional and ritual observances, and often containing a moral code governing the conduct of human affairs. Everything from the Noble Eight Fold Path, sangha moral code, samsara and rebirth into different realms, kharma which drives samsara, celestial buddhas, parinirvana, and meditation (in all its forms) are religious elements. Even though it is considered a soft atheist religion it does believe in Naraka (demons), Preta, Asuras, Devas, and Brahma. Heaven and Hell are temporary, though some monks would argue that they exist here (Hell is the lack of compassion/empathy). The Buddha himself is just not a monotheistic god, but the teacher of the way.
 

1Told

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why are you reading that crap?

Sartre was a useful idiot, sometimes even people like him can be kinda right about Life stuff.

communism is not different from any other stupid religion and he was a great puppet working for it, did he took his responsibilities and consequences for what he did and said in the name of this poisonous shit?
nope...

do what i say not what i do, it's always the same especially with these useless bourgeois and so called intellectuals xd
 

N o i r

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Exactly. Funny to hear my old man spouting nonsense and afterwards telling me I have a lot to learn. He incorporated his religious logic into his parenting. Making no sense but demanding respect regardless.
Doesn't matter, at the end of the day you know in what you believe in. I think people put too much importance in a system of belief, as if life without such can't continue to the point that it's almost dangerous to say you're not religious.


It may be impossible to separate civil morality from religious morality as both have intertwined and cohabited since the dawn of civilization. Even most of the atheists I know, if not all of them, have a moral structure based on a communal or familial religious upbringing even if they chose to find their own spiritual or aspiritual path. So it can't be fully argued that atheism (again hard atheism) produces the same moral structure.



I'm sorry to say that Buddhism is a religion my friend. I think it's trendy in Western society to separate Buddhism from it's religious, spiritual, psychological, and philosophical properties to meet the needs of the more spiritual Western atheist. Religion is defined as a set of beliefs concerning the cause, nature, and purpose of the universe, especially when considered as the creation of a superhuman agency or agencies, usually involving devotional and ritual observances, and often containing a moral code governing the conduct of human affairs. Everything from the Noble Eight Fold Path, sangha moral code, samsara and rebirth into different realms, kharma which drives samsara, celestial buddhas, parinirvana, and meditation (in all its forms) are religious elements. Even though it is considered a soft atheist religion it does believe in Naraka (demons), Preta, Asuras, Devas, and Brahma. Heaven and Hell are temporary, though some monks would argue that they exist here (Hell is the lack of compassion/empathy). The Buddha himself is just not a monotheistic god, but the teacher of the way.


Religion is a jumble of primitive folklore that humankind drags through the ages like a cosmic security blanket. Religion is passionate and irrational and messy. But philosophy is the flower of human intellect.(I don't necessarily believe this 100%, but for the sake of the argument, it will stay.) It is reasonable and civilized. Religion inspires war and atrocity; at worst, philosophy incites mild arguments over coffee and dessert.

Buddhism -- some Buddhism, anyway -- is a practice of contemplation and inquiry that doesn't depend on belief in God or a soul or anything supernatural. Therefore, the theory goes, it can't be a religion.

This is due to how the word "religion" is understood.

I'ts "trendy" in the west, because that's how it is understood.


It is neither a religion in the sense in which that word is commonly understood, for it is not "a system of faith and worship owing any allegiance to a supernatural being." Buddhism does not demand blind faith from its adherents.

If you believe that the term "religion" doesn't require a deity in order to be religion, then of course you will believe it is based on it's similarities to "actual" religions. Still, I --and others who don't necessarily follow the teaching or do, don't view it as a religion but despite that, buddhism is what it is, religion or not; it's not like the others.

(-it's not much of an argument, mainly putting out a perspective-)
 
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Forest

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Social norms, moral and ethic codes, civil laws, and religion are all forms of thought that humans use to identify with. Those are beliefs that buddha would have definitely said are illusion ultimately, maybe not "inauthentic", but definitely not the true self.
I should have clarified as far as the Buddha and morality / ethic codes (I'm sure you know but others may not) that this is his realization only upon reaching Nirvana, not an idea he lived by before attaining that state. In his final realization he transcended all notions. Including: morals, ethics codes, laws, and found only the self among all of them. It was emptying, the same emptiness that Thich Nhat Hanh says allows us to see the self in all forms, and as you referred to, be filled with compassion for everything. It's different than the transcending of morality, without compassion... In other words, he was not one who would condone the antisocial actions of someone like Bernie Madoff or George Bush, as a way to end suffering, he just was in a state beyond condemnation. But still full of compassion. I was trying to relate the state of buddhahood to sartres authenticity. But I was at a loss of presence when I wrote that post, could see it being easily twisted without the clarification.

It isn't about a competition to be more "evolved" than others. I'm not sure if you are replying to Sartre or Buddhism, but neither fit that description. Buddhism is about throwing away the ego and the misconceptions of our self and our world we have clung to that cause suffering. Sartre's concept of authenticity is rooted more in concepts of acting on the Id while maintaining the Super Ego (if you're going to use the term ego, I'll use Freudian terminology).

Coming back to this again, I think that answer would be the buddhist's answer to Sartre. Sartre's authenticity is implying attaining a state of being, a concept, something outside of the present moment, while the Buddhist knows that nothing can change in anytime but the here and the now. And again as we saw before, from a Buddhist stand point, his authenticity is limited to an egoic concept, because it still sees the human as being a separate self. I fully agree with you though that the true Buddhist path has nothing to do with the ego. That answer cannot apply towards the Mahayana path. No true Bhikkhu "pretends to work" for anything. Pretending to work toward something, would imply that a mind is engaging in activity with ulterior agenda. If there is no agenda besides to lose the sense of a separate self, like in sunyata for example, there is no ego involved in this process. Another reason we know there is no ego involved in that path, is because we know that enlightenment and insight into buddhahood can come only from beyond intellectual mental processes that involve thought.


I would define existentialism as the pursuit of meaning and the goal to reach and utilize our potential. He might not consider enlightenment to be authentic. Enlightenment, in theory, is a human construct of ultimate potential and self-improvement. But a true existentialist may argue that our authentic self is accepting who we already are. Society is constantly telling us we have to improve ourselves, which causes anxiety and lowers self-esteem. It's hard for me to grasp because I have no idea who I really am if I discard all the influence of my friends, family, culture, society, and experiences. Theologically emptying the mind of who we think we are is how we become an empty vessel, able to fill itself with more compassion; new possibilities. That is a noble thought, but it is exactly what Sartre would argue against because it's theology telling us we aren't good enough to be us. Thich Nhat Hanh looks at it differently than the concept of sunyata. Like a garden the garbage in our life can be recycled to create a flower. Instead of discarding who we are, we grow from it. To answer his question in a spiritual sense, if someone were to reach an enlightened state they would have no reason to discriminate. Can you picture the Dalai Lama segregating people based on spiritual development?

All religious figures have quite an ego. It takes an ego to state, "I know the path...follow me."

My ultimate goal is as fluid as my sense of self. It was initially to simply find a new path to be happier. It grew into seeking freedom from suffering, but then it changed and I just wanted to help people to be happier. In meditation I felt that if I were to ever have the choice of parinirvana I would decline it to be reborn again to continue helping others. Then for the last four years I got swallowed in my career and non spiritual life. I feel like I'm back at square one. So right now, my only current goal is to strive to see objectively, understand multiple perspectives, not just my subjective reality, and then help others as I continue back on my path.
About the ego thing, I was only kidding. Probably in deep Satori, he saw the self as not being him and as in everything else. Everything is the buddha, that's does not mean ego. The buddha has nothing to do with ego, until we discuss it and create an identity of him, outside of ourselves. That's why Thich Nhat Hanh speaks of the importance of intimate relation to the buddha nature, to bow to the statues or images of a buddha, and acknowledge that, that nature is in all of us, and that the buddha nature is not something separate from us.
Thich Nhat Hanh would talk about the emptiness, as not nothingness, but emptiness of something that separates the subject from the rest of the cosmos. I recall one of the points of his talks on emptiness explained as being only empty of a separate self. Well I'm glad you realized why Satre and your Buddhist views contradict each other. I didn't know enough about Satre to really help I guess. Alas they weren't really meant to complement each other fully it seems. They are two different paths of thinking altogether.


Have you seen this?

I should recommend this reading as well, it's something that helped me find my way back on my path, at my low point. You may be able to find some good stuff in here too.

 
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Callypigia

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Doesn't matter, at the end of the day you know in what you believe in. I think people put too much importance in a system of belief, as if life without such can't continue to the point that it's almost dangerous to say you're not religious.





Religion is a jumble of primitive folklore that humankind drags through the ages like a cosmic security blanket. Religion is passionate and irrational and messy. But philosophy is the flower of human intellect.(I don't necessarily believe this 100%, but for the sake of the argument, it will stay.) It is reasonable and civilized. Religion inspires war and atrocity; at worst, philosophy incites mild arguments over coffee and dessert.

Buddhism -- some Buddhism, anyway -- is a practice of contemplation and inquiry that doesn't depend on belief in God or a soul or anything supernatural. Therefore, the theory goes, it can't be a religion.

This is due to how the word "religion" is understood.

I'ts "trendy" in the west, because that's how it is understood.


It is neither a religion in the sense in which that word is commonly understood, for it is not "a system of faith and worship owing any allegiance to a supernatural being." Buddhism does not demand blind faith from its adherents.

If you believe that the term "religion" doesn't require a deity in order to be religion, then of course you will believe it is based on it's similarities to "actual" religions. Still, I --and others who don't necessarily follow the teaching or do, don't view it as a religion but despite that, buddhism is what it is, religion or not; it's not like the others.

(-it's not much of an argument, mainly putting out a perspective-)

Buddhism does owe allegiance to a supernatural being. The Buddha performed many supernatural miracles including walking on water. He set the kharmic wheel in motion for humans to be freed from endless rebirth. Maitreya, the future fifth reincarnation of Buddha, is supposed to free others from their suffering when he reincarnates in a world devoid of the dharma. Learn about Pure Land Buddhism; celestial buddhas guide others to heaven to be freed from the suffering of this world (sounds western, right?). I agree that Buddhism is different. It was Gautama's reaction to the Vedas in his time; change comes from within. Zen too is different than Theravada and most Mahayana, as it rejects intellectualism and many dogmatic practices. In the west (greatly influenced by Zen during the 1960s) it is stripped of its dogma and practiced in its basic philosophy. Of course you could take the religious elements out of any religion and make it a simple philosophy. When you take the mumbo-jumbo out of Christianity you have a Jewish priest teaching people non-violence, compassion, and humanism.
 

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I was rereading Sartre and one of his concepts in Bad Faith stuck out to me: we create social norms, moral and ethic codes, civil laws, and religion as a means to escape our responsibility to authentically exist. Our authenticity is hindered by our fear to take responsibility for our actions. I was relating that (ironically) to my own spiritual practices.

To understand it I wanted to break it down into our basic evolutionary design and then incorporate the inception of moral indoctrination into our basic primal self. Simply put our species exists by the three f's: feed, fight, and f***. These inherently create societal conflict due to competition of resources, which in turn created the basis of moral and ethic codes (and religion) to help regulate conflict. But does moral and ethic law inhibit authenticity? Social norms as well are fluid and ever changing, waxing and waning with public opinion.

So I thought does my religion hinder my true self? The Buddha taught that the true self, or awakened enlightened self, is within us all. It is free from craving, free from suffering, but our basic nature is to crave food, power, and procreate. Cessation of craving ends suffering, but is ending suffering just a way to escape our innate responsibilities? Are people even capable of taking responsibility for their actions without relying on religion, social norms, laws...etc? People are always stating that the world would be better without religion. If we removed it would things change for the better? That is highly suspect. "Better" I suppose could be subjective. In counter to Sartre, if our true self is to appeal to our basic fundamental needs and take responsibility for our actions, is that an enlightened person? They would by definition be authentic on a primal level as even our concept of Self is impermanent and fluid. To me they are both correct. Our primal self is our true self, whereas the enlightened self (in a Buddhist sense) is the evolved self.

The Taoist answer to your question is a little bit different from the Buddhist answer.

The Taoist would ask why the natural pain of hunger should be suffering. It is a natural indication that your body gives you to sustain itself. Why should it be undesirable to experience it when it is time?

The choice to eat is yours. However, so long as you have not eaten and you continue to feel hunger, it is only natural for you to experience your body's pain. Whether or not you interpret that as suffering and something to be fled is a matter of perspective.

Is your purpose in life to not experience anything but null bliss?

Or is your purpose in life to act within your constraints?

Pain is not necessarily suffering.

Pleasure is not necessarily peace.

Suffering arises when one expects what is unnatural of the circumstances. Peace arises when one's expectations are in alignment with what is natural of the circumstances.

This doesn't mean one shouldn't seek to change the circumstances. The only way the nature will change is if the circumstances change. But one must also be wise to understand the nature of the circumstance of change. The more one attempts to control, the more the world changes and the more unexpected incidents arise from natural consequence.

IE - by attempting to control too much, suffering is an inevitable consequence of the unforeseen cascade of events.

Change without expectation can be easily made - even radical change. But the more one attempts to control, the less satisfied that one will be with the uncontrollable nature of life.

I think you'll find this philosophy echoed in many religious beliefs - even the more rigid theologies of Christianity (albeit slightly different contexts).
 

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all of this philosophy is fake because it doesnt involve you worshiping bacon. sorry.
 

Forest

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The Taoist answer to your question is a little bit different from the Buddhist answer.

The Taoist would ask why the natural pain of hunger should be suffering. It is a natural indication that your body gives you to sustain itself. Why should it be undesirable to experience it when it is time?



The choice to eat is yours. However, so long as you have not eaten and you continue to feel hunger, it is only natural for you to experience your body's pain. Whether or not you interpret that as suffering and something to be fled is a matter of perspective.

Is your purpose in life to not experience anything but null bliss?

Or is your purpose in life to act within your constraints?

Pain is not necessarily suffering.

Pleasure is not necessarily peace.

Suffering arises when one expects what is unnatural of the circumstances. Peace arises when one's expectations are in alignment with what is natural of the circumstances.

This doesn't mean one shouldn't seek to change the circumstances. The only way the nature will change is if the circumstances change. But one must also be wise to understand the nature of the circumstance of change. The more one attempts to control, the more the world changes and the more unexpected incidents arise from natural consequence.

IE - by attempting to control too much, suffering is an inevitable consequence of the unforeseen cascade of events.

Change without expectation can be easily made - even radical change. But the more one attempts to control, the less satisfied that one will be with the uncontrollable nature of life.

I think you'll find this philosophy echoed in many religious beliefs - even the more rigid theologies of Christianity (albeit slightly different contexts).

Definitely. The philosophy, of "way-making" in the Dao, is not so much different than the metaphysics of "selfless action" dharma, found in Hindu epics like the Bhagavad Gita. The idea there is that actions performed without attachment to the fruits of their labor, are actions that produce no suffering.
 
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Aim64C

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Definitely. The philosophy, of "way-making" in the Dao, is not so much different than the metaphysics of "selfless action" dharma, found in Hindu epics like the Bhagavad Gita. The idea there is that actions performed without attachment to the fruits of their labor, are actions that produce no suffering.

Somewhat.

I think there are a couple different ways to look at it.

You can look at the philosophy as one of being "selfless action" - IE - that you perform actions without really having an expectation as to the outcome. I find this outlook helpful when facing an overwhelming decision. Sometimes, you have to stop trying to figure the outcome and just see what happens.

As a life philosophy, though, it doesn't really work. You are a "ship adrift" - and while some can live this way, I don't believe it is how all human beings are intended to live.

There is another way of interpreting the idea.

Taoism is centered around the concept of change. Even the Eight Trigrams are not 'fixed' concepts - "Lightning" is defined as being increasing in Yin or increasing in Yang - the same with any of the other Trigrams. This is to indicate that nothing is ever in a fixed state and is always in flux. Earth will not remain Earth forever and whatever is being 'read' has an inertia one way or the other in the cycle.

The Taoist sage, thus, would not be defined as never acting selflessly, but as always acting within the inertial framework of the situation.

Taking the example of hunger into account - the Sage doesn't eat because he doesn't expect to nourish his body - the Sage eats primarily for that reason. What would be unnatural is if the Sage expects the hunger to go away without eating. Unless it is the conscious choice of the Sage to prolong the state of hunger, he will eat. He can't eat until he has prepared food - so expecting an immediate remedy to the situation is not natural, although conveniences like packaged food and the like certainly reduce the time necessary to prepare food - the Sage must also take into consideration whether the food is appropriate for his/her direction.

If a sage does nothing but eats candy and drinks soda - he can't expect to have a healthy or performing body.

If a sage wishes to travel, it is not simply going to happen - he must choose a direction in which to begin the travel. The Sage doesn't suffer if he chooses to walk and gets blisters on his feet - that is a natural outcome of the choice. If his food supplies run low and he finds himself hungry, he is not suffering unless he is expecting logistics to be irrelevant to his physical condition. If the sage must go without food - the sage considers that a natural physical consequence that is part of the experience of life. Allowing it to manifest as suffering is completely unnecessary regardless of the circumstance.

There are always a range of options available to the Sage to take. He/she is free to evaluate those options and choose freely among them. So long as the expectation is not out of line with nature - there should be no cause for suffering and it should be easier for one to remain at peace with his/her actions.

The sage isn't attempting to -control- the world, but is not simply a leaf adrift in the water, either. He isn't afraid to take action, but is aware of the nature of his surroundings and of his actions.

I hold up Jiraiya as a good example of a classical Taoist Sage.

Or Hinata - but that goes into a much deeper analysis of her interactions with Naruto ( )

Hagoromo, as such, would be a false sage. He isn't -necessarily- evil; but worse, in a way. He hangs around, always has his hands in the pot throwing his power and influence around in an attempt to control the ripples in the water. Despite his best intentions - those types of actions will only ever get chaos and destruction because the ends justify the means.

"Human beings aren't supposed to have the power of the Ten Tails... but what the hell... I want them to get to know each other and use Ninshu!"

Yes, of course - that's the first thing human beings are going to do with power.

"And my sons hated each other because I chose the younger one as the true heir..."

What did he expect?

The man throws power around like it's nothing and expects completely unnatural responses from the world. His solution? More power!

"I had a feeling I'd **** things up this badly. So I sent a portion of myself through time to keep an eye on things (because that's totally sage-like) and then also gave it the ability to pass on my powers to the reincarnations of my sons who try to kill each other every century."

In the end - nothing was really solved. Kaguya is still sealed and awaiting unsealing. Black Zetsu's fate is unknown (unless that was resolved in the movie). There still isn't much of a platform for world peace...

The only real resolution was the issue between Naruto and Sasuke and Naruto and Hinata. In terms of the things Hagoromo attempted to accomplish - he basically failed on every level, even in keeping his sons from fighting each other.

Jiraiya, on the other hand, succeeded.

Perhaps he didn't bring about world peace - but he didn't expect to do much more than play a part in helping people to better understand each other. He did that through Naruto. Even though he died believing he'd failed in many regards, he was the most successful of the sage-like characters (apart from the Naruto-Hinata combo).

Madara was massively successful but ultimately acting so overtly against the natural order that the backlash destroyed him. He had become so accustomed to controlling things that he forgot there were things outside of his control. He would be an "evil sage" - one who has thrown out the concept of natural order and has decided that the ends justify any means. To them, the order is established by the one who has the power to establish that order.

They are more selfish than the "false sage" - but their danger is far more obvious and thus typically more contained.

The "false sage" is far more dangerous because he expects to be able to use his knowledge/power in to affect an altruistic outcome in unnatural ways. People are quick to latch onto altruistic intent but not as quick to understand when these goals are just not realistic or will result in more harm than good.

Paying to send a bunch of people from the lower economic classes on a luxurious cruise sounds nice - but when they bring their credit cards along and run themselves into debt over once-in-a-lifetime souvenirs or other tourist expenses... has it really helped them in the long run?

A lot of politicians fall into the realm of false sages when they aren't downright evil.

But, I digress.
 

Callypigia

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The Taoist answer to your question is a little bit different from the Buddhist answer.

The Taoist would ask why the natural pain of hunger should be suffering. It is a natural indication that your body gives you to sustain itself. Why should it be undesirable to experience it when it is time?

The choice to eat is yours. However, so long as you have not eaten and you continue to feel hunger, it is only natural for you to experience your body's pain. Whether or not you interpret that as suffering and something to be fled is a matter of perspective.

Is your purpose in life to not experience anything but null bliss?

Or is your purpose in life to act within your constraints?

Pain is not necessarily suffering.

Pleasure is not necessarily peace.

Suffering arises when one expects what is unnatural of the circumstances. Peace arises when one's expectations are in alignment with what is natural of the circumstances.

This doesn't mean one shouldn't seek to change the circumstances. The only way the nature will change is if the circumstances change. But one must also be wise to understand the nature of the circumstance of change. The more one attempts to control, the more the world changes and the more unexpected incidents arise from natural consequence.

IE - by attempting to control too much, suffering is an inevitable consequence of the unforeseen cascade of events.

Change without expectation can be easily made - even radical change. But the more one attempts to control, the less satisfied that one will be with the uncontrollable nature of life.

I think you'll find this philosophy echoed in many religious beliefs - even the more rigid theologies of Christianity (albeit slightly different contexts).

I guess I will reply from a Buddhist perspective since that's all I know. Suffering due to physical pain (whether getting injured or hunger pangs like you gave as an example) is not really Dukkha (Buddhist suffering). Dukkha translates into English more as anxiety or general disappointment. Physical pain is just a condition that acts as a warning to the body indicating distress. I suppose one could argue that anxiety is as condition that acts as a warning indicating emotional distress, but it really isn't touch on much outside of parinirvana and freedom from all illness, suffering, and ego.

In regards to control, that is an illusion. It could almost be considered a delusion of the ego. The only thing that can be remotely controlled is how we act, not even how we feel. Over time we can modify how we think. Suffering is caused by attempts to control because it creates resistance. Buddhism, and I'm sure Taoism, operate on the opposite ideology: be the river gently passing by the rocks. I don't think that the Abrahamic religions operate on the same philosophy at all. They have an external locus of control (change comes from God's spirit, not within). They are more restrictive, or controlling, in terms of moralistic practices as well. This stems from the cultural differences in individualism, collectivism, and the concept of Self. The answer to my question in regards to Sartre truly was the difference between Eastern and Western philosophy. While Westerners are more individualistic, their religions tend to be more externalized, perhaps to counter balance the disproportionate ego created by individualism. Eastern philosophy on the other hand is more internalized, perhaps because collectivism naturally balances the ego.
 

Aim64C

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I guess I will reply from a Buddhist perspective since that's all I know. Suffering due to physical pain (whether getting injured or hunger pangs like you gave as an example) is not really Dukkha (Buddhist suffering). Dukkha translates into English more as anxiety or general disappointment. Physical pain is just a condition that acts as a warning to the body indicating distress. I suppose one could argue that anxiety is as condition that acts as a warning indicating emotional distress, but it really isn't touch on much outside of parinirvana and freedom from all illness, suffering, and ego.

In regards to control, that is an illusion. It could almost be considered a delusion of the ego. The only thing that can be remotely controlled is how we act, not even how we feel. Over time we can modify how we think. Suffering is caused by attempts to control because it creates resistance. Buddhism, and I'm sure Taoism, operate on the opposite ideology: be the river gently passing by the rocks. I don't think that the Abrahamic religions operate on the same philosophy at all. They have an external locus of control (change comes from God's spirit, not within). They are more restrictive, or controlling, in terms of moralistic practices as well. This stems from the cultural differences in individualism, collectivism, and the concept of Self. The answer to my question in regards to Sartre truly was the difference between Eastern and Western philosophy. While Westerners are more individualistic, their religions tend to be more externalized, perhaps to counter balance the disproportionate ego created by individualism. Eastern philosophy on the other hand is more internalized, perhaps because collectivism naturally balances the ego.

Taoist and Buddhist philosophy are very similar in that regard.

As for the notion that religion hinders the 'true self' - this is the distinction between "constrained" and "unconstrained" humanity.

The Constrained view of humanity stipulates that human beings are fundamentally flawed and that it is through a form of discipline - be it through adherence to law, moral codes, or spiritual outlook that we guard ourselves and others against the potential damage our flaws can inflict.

The Unconstrained view of humanity stipulates that it is our institutions that are flawed and cause harm to the individual.

In a more literal expression - one who falls in line with the Constrained view of humanity can feel free within a fenced field. The fence, he understands, is there to define a boundary past which there is some variety of danger.

One who conforms to the Unconstrained view sees the fence as a sort of ball and chain that he must escape.

[video=youtube;_dwz_Z62e0s]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_dwz_Z62e0s[/video]

Western and Eastern philosophies that have attained something akin to religious status recognize this.

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I'm... honestly not sure who "Wei Wu Wei" is... because that's a Taoist philosophy... but... whatever - it has a point.

Both the Saint and the Sage are of the same observation - that human beings are flawed and that there is the potential for destruction without an observance of this tendency. The Sage argues against the instinctive desire to manipulate and control the world, and the Saint insists a pursuit of personal desire can quickly lead to evil.

There is a bit of a cultural difference - but I think that it is minor.

As you have stated - Western culture is a bit more individualistic; plagues and slaving from rival cultures frequently obliterated family lineages. Even if there was a collectivist "people," the societies were often far more egaltarian where women, servants, and vagrants had to 'rise to the occasion' and fill the roles of people who had met one of the fates that removed them from society. The individual had a far less defined role in society - people moved through caste brackets, learned varying trades, and were far more individually fluid even if they were of a collectivist mentality (such as in Serbia).

Similar trends can be found as you follow Western religion back to the nomadic roots. Prophets came from modest backgrounds, leaders came from peasants - "God," a force beyond direct observation, was the 'Kingmaker' more so than any man's approval. Even though collectivism/tribalism was -very- strong, the notion of an individual being of unique value was a matter of physical reality.

On the other hand, many people in Eastern cultures had more rigidly predefined roles and somewhat more stability. Movement between castes was rare without an arrangement of marriage or having been favored by a Noble. One was born into a sort of 'role' that would play out until passing on and attempts to 'struggle' out of that role were often futile (and sometimes punished by law).

In many contexts, one can view Neji's view of destiny and Kishimoto's depiction of destiny as being a difference between "Classic" and "Modern" Taoist perceptions. Following World War II and Japan's entrance into a more open economic climate brought about a major shift toward egaltarianism. While Japan had always been a bit more egaltarian than China, the breaking of the imperial system and the wealth of international activity pretty much changed how the Japanese had to regard the individual's role in society. With far more options for individuals and far less reason to restrict those options, it's only natural that the view of the human being as being born into a defined role become less prominent.

This has brought about a shift in how cultural philosophies have been interpreted.

Naruto is a character born not into an unchangeable role - but into a fate where endeavor is what is truly natural. Rather than being completely acquiescent to his perceived fate, Naruto is a character who is acting within nature to fulfill a fate that is not immediately obvious by his birth.

The distinction between "eliminating ego" and "disciplining ego" is simply whether or not one perceives the option to choose. To early Eastern philosophers - the concept of individual choice and action was not nearly as prominent as it was in the West. Since many in their populations are now exposed to similar concepts of individual choice and expression - the philosophy must adapt to address the issue.

I'm not sure if that answers your question or not, though.
 
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