Ay vs Might Guy

[TRE MERCER]

Your first paragraph revealed you still dont know the difference between movement and fight speeds.

Your second one revealed you don't know the full mechanics of how Shunshin works.

Ei is slow get his BBC out of your mouth...

 

[Draegod]

Minato's reactions>Ay's reactions. Minato got cut down by JJ Madara, despite him using Sage Mode. Gai engaged that same Madara, and instead of getting cut down, Gai pushes him back, thus Gai is faster.


If he can push back JJ Madara, and has better reflexes than someone with better reflexes than Ay, Ay won't be able to blitz anyone here, nor is he even faster to begin with. Even if he was, it's not by much, and then we have the fact that Gai can move at his top speed continuously while Ay has to charge his V2 Shunshin.




Hurt him? Maybe not. Push him back? Yes. If he uses Hirudora in close quarters just how he did against JJ Madara, there is no avoiding it. All he can do from there is die.

- Minato was never ever stated to have better reflexes! Where are ya'll getting that from? Minato was stated to be faster then Aye, and it was mainly because of FTG.
- What does sage mode have to do with anything when he was in the motion of attacking after ftg? Minato isn't Aye, nor does Sage mode and Lightning release body flicker work the same. And please show me any scan in the manga showing Minato is a fast rapid fighter. How does Minato Striking equals his Movement foot speed? Do you guys even know the difference? Seems like only Evani gets the difference
- Again, show in the manga where it says Minato has better reflexes! In his V1 state his reflexes where on par as in EQUAL! V2>>> Minato in reflexes no question.
- lmao Aye doesn't have to charge up:

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Lightning release body Flicker(LRBF) keeps his chakra active for non stop shunshins. Regular Shunshin's

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to first be prepped (even if only a little). LRBF makes the spam of shunshin possible, you all need to learn the difference. Aye and his dad is able to easily Shunshin and keep shunshin'ing as long as they have the cloak active. They more chakra they put in it the faster the shunshin becomes (bijuu level chakra) since shunshin require chakra and chakra control.

All Aye has to do is be aware and he can instantly shunshin, as compared to regular ninjas; They have to be aware then mold chakra then shunshin (LRBF skips the middle man).

Why would he allow him to pressure him when he can simply Shunshin behind him when he attempts to blitz Aye? Why would he be the one watching and waiting? The dude last milli second waited for Ama then avoided it. That speaks volumes on his reaction time, awareness, and nerve system!

Aye will be more then enough to tank the standard blows and even retreat if need be. He will easily Live Hindura's bomb, Will he be vulnerable afterwards, Yes maybe. But All he has to do is Avoid him until Guy slips up, then Go for a chop to instantly kill guy.

Madara with the Rinnegan (Ems is under rinnegan, and EMS is able to read movements better according to you all) only had the awareness to Block a V1 blitz from Aye, and that wasn't even close to being his top speed. Please to not underestimate the Aye's!

 

[LuckyMan]

Ei is slow get his BBC out of your mouth...

I think you're rustled and its my BBC thats in your mouth because all you do is trash talk and flame me when I disagree with you. I know your whole approach in these threads now:

>You post argument
>Argument gets crushed and burned
>Brings up loads of irrelevant crap to try and revive argument
>Arguments gets crushed again, revival failed
>Claims opponent is wanker or retarded
>You're revealed to be the retarded one
>Says "I cant take this anymore" or some other stuff, but its just an excuse to avoid the confrontation and the fact you've lost.

 

[TRE MERCER]

I think you're rustled and its my BBC thats in your mouth because all you do is trash talk and flame me when I disagree with you. I know your whole approach in these threads now:

>You post argument
>Argument gets crushed and burned
>Brings up loads of irrelevant crap to try and revive argument
>Arguments gets crushed again, revival failed
>Claims opponent is wanker or retarded
>You're revealed to be the retarded one
>Says "I cant take this anymore" or some other stuff, but its just an excuse to avoid the confrontation and the fact you've lost.

You didn't counter not one of my arguments all you said was someone jimmies are rustled... Why are you in the vs section when you can't debate at all?

 

[Forbidden Technique]

Movement speed is how fast you can move on foot. How fast you can get from point A to point B. Shunshin is an example of this.

Fight speed (hand speed/attack speed) is how fast one is able to attack/fight. This means how quickly one can react during a fight and how quickly and precisely you can attack a person.

We don't get to see fight speed much until two shinobi go at it in CQC and since we don't see that much anymore, many people just think a persons movement speed = their fight speed. I'll use your KCM Naruto point in this example.

>KCM Naruto evaded Ays V2 Shunshin with his own Shunshin. That is a display of their movement speeds.
>You say KCM was bested by Obito in CQC and couldn't react, where as Gai did.
>They were in an actual CQC fight where as Ay and Naruto weren't.
>All this proves is that KCM Narutos fight speed is not fast (or at least faster than some others) but his movement speed is.

Its not an easy thing to grasp and thats mostly because we don't get many CQC fights (when real shinobi fought back in part 1 Lol) anymore because now people just blow up battlefields. Think of it this way, a race between two shinobi would go differently than a taijutsu fight between them because movement and fight speed are different.

I understand that, and no where in my post did I confuse the two. I was specifically addressing pure reaction time... not striking or movement speed. They all pretty much go hand and hand, so I can understand the confusion.

@ bold/underlined, that is also a display of Naruto's reaction speed, which is what I was specifically addressing in an attempt at proving Gai's reaction being superior to Ay's. My post had nothing to do with a comparison between movement and striking speed. Every scenerio someones reaction speed was involved.

 

[ARGUS]

His speed may be on par, but Reflexes Def goes to Aye! Aye had the awareness to wait for Ama' then dodge it when it spawned on him (milli second). Guy Combat speed is def faster then Aye's, But Aye's Shunshin in evading makes sure he dodges every Attack like Hindora and MF.

Nope, in terms of speed and reflexes, Guy is well above V2 Ay,,

Dodging or reacting to amatearsu is nowhere near a better feat then

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unless you think that amaterasu is faster than Juubi Jin Madara Lol, which is the same jutsu

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furthermore

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yet got eradicated and lost him arm the moment he attempted to attack any juubi jin, despite minato having

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, and

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,

Guy's Hits will not hurt Aye, especially in his Lightning armor where he will fill no pain from the constant surge of adrenalin keeping his nerves on a go to go situation.

Guys hirudora obliterated V3 susanoo to an extent where madara himself was affected since his control over his mokuryu was also gone, yet a

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something thats nowhere near the

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with that being said, Guy uses hirudora, and Ay dies, no way in hell is he surviving it,

And how is a Attacking Minato (non shunshin) faster Then Aye? It would seem many ppl mix Combat speed with movement speed yet again.

It does prove that madaras and 7th gate guys reflexes and striking speed are well above SM Minato, who is above Ay ,
its not speed that allows a user to land their blows, but rathher their reflexes and striking speed,
the manga has already proved this notion as shown with RT Madara vs Tobirama, where tobirama despite having faster speed than madara, still ended up losing due to madara having superior reflexes and striking speed,

And how is His reflexes above Aye again? Aye dodged ama last second,

Combatting and keeping up with JJ madara and evading his TSB >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Dodging amaterasu

Blitz Rinnagan Madara with base V1 speed.

That was lightened Ay, which would be more or less V2 Ay,,
and again,
combatting and keeping up with JJ madara and evading his TSB >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> blitzing edo madara with a fake rinnegan

Now he may not be the fastest, but he damn sure isn't slow in the reflex department.

Nope, Guys reflexes are still well above V2 Ays, as feats show,
hell

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, to an extent where neither minato or kakashi knew it was him
the same attacks were

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, the same kamui which had the speed to rip the GM arm mid summon

so even in the speed department, 7th gate guy is well above V2 Ays

His Shunshin is nigh instant!

No its not, its nowhere near nigh instant when even Base Minato managed to react to it, not once but twice
unless ur telling me that minatos reflexes are nigh instant? which is just impossible

Minato has never shown any speed close to his V2 speed feats.

Never said that his shunshin is faster than V2 Ays, but Guys speed is,
however minatos reflexes are above Ays, whilst Guys are above not base minatos but SM Minatos as feats show,

Only ninja who Shunshin was faster was Kcm Naruto who planned and prepped it getting ready to dodge.

Juubi Jin shunshin > BM Narutos > KCM Narutos >= V2 Ays

I'm not saying he can match combat plus movement speed of Guy, but he def will be able to avoid the Hindura and fatal hits.

If he cant match or keep up, then he is getting hit constantly meaning that hirudora lands, especially when it landed on madara,
Ay would and should be no problem at all

Since he feels no pain with in the raiton armor, he will be able to keep shunshin'ing after standard blows. It's not as easy as you all make it seem.

even if he feels no pain, which is just stupid to claim,
he is still not suriviving Hirudora,
Ays durability is nowhere near his Dads for anyone to claim that he survives AT

 

[Conspirator.]

Hirudora destroys Ay. He's not durable enough to survive it, nor can he evade it's massive AOE. If Ay was as durable as the 3rd, he'd win, but he's not.

 

[Bogard]

It will probably be useless but i'll say it again anyway.

1- The moments where Minato was trumped was he was in a offensive phase, attacking his opponent straight on, not in defensive position. Why is it important? Lee said it already himself

Spoiler

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This is the weakness that appears when you attack straight on and linearily at high speed. You can't see the opponent's counter correctly because you lack the "eye". Because of this, to outmaneuver the opponent you have to calculate your approach, attacking in a certain manner that gives you better field and advantage in your offensive like Lee said

This is completely different than someone staying immobile, moving slowly or prepared especially in a defensive position

When Minato(and Naruto by extension) was actually prepared for the chakra arms attack(that Jubito was reserving for people who will teleport behind him), he was capable to block them perfectly fine

Spoiler

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In a defensive position, he was also capable to react to the gudodama's destructive formation(that destroyed Hiruzen's body in an instant)

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He could teleport instantly Madara's fast gudodamas(faster than Kamui's teleportation) without a scratch(considering it desintegrates in contact)

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Conclusion: I don't believe in the myth that Ay couldn't react to 7th Gated Gai. Gai has better striking speed but that's it

 

[Icelerate]

What is stopping Gai from hitting Ay in midair and then hitting Ay with Hirudora while Ay is still in midair? Ay has zero chance of dodging Hirudora while in midair.

Gai wins mid-high difficulty.

 

[LuckyMan]

Hirudora destroys Ay. He's not durable enough to survive it, nor can he evade it's massive AOE. If Ay was as durable as the 3rd, he'd win, but he's not.

Kisame survived it.

I haven't seen a post yet that explains why Ay can't survive AT, or dodge it though he'd still probably get caught in AOE range. The Chidori example someone posted holds zero value because ones a piercing attack whose power is focused all in one point and ones a blunt force attack whose power expands out and gets weaker while it does. Kisame surviving it makes it look even worse. Also speed of light (185,000,000 mph) movement couldn't breach Ays body, not even break skin. AT killing him seems pretty laughable.

 

[ARGUS]

Kisame survived it.

I haven't seen a post yet that explains why Ay can't survive AT, or dodge it though he'd still probably get caught in AOE range. The Chidori example someone posted holds zero value because ones a piercing attack whose power is focused all in one point and ones a blunt force attack whose power expands out and gets weaker while it does. Kisame surviving it makes it look even worse. Also speed of light (185,000,000 mph) movement couldn't breach Ays body, not even break skin. AT killing him seems pretty laughable.

since when does kisame have the durability to tank something on the level of hirudora?
especially when V2 bees lariat which is nowhere near AT, raped him in canon, and blew his entire chest off,
furthermore, Guy wasnt even aiming to kill kisame, and his AT actually had to go through GSB in-order to get to kisame, meaning that kisame was hit at nowhere near the full power of the jutsu
the same jutsu which eradicated V3 susanoo, whilst Ays offense (which is stronger than his defense) couldnt even breach anything above ribcage susanoo,

therefore getting to the obvious conclusion that Ay dies to AT

 

[LuckyMan]

since when does kisame have the durability to tank something on the level of hirudora?
especially when V2 bees lariat which is nowhere near AT, raped him in canon, and blew his entire chest off,
furthermore, Guy wasnt even aiming to kill kisame, and his AT actually had to go through GSB in-order to get to kisame, meaning that kisame was hit at nowhere near the full power of the jutsu
the same jutsu which eradicated V3 susanoo, whilst Ays offense (which is stronger than his defense) couldnt even breach anything above ribcage susanoo,

therefore getting to the obvious conclusion that Ay dies to AT

He has the ability to tank something on the level of AT ever since he well... he tanked it.

AT is a pressurized blast of air that releases an explosion. The energy from the explosion is strongest in the middle and its weaker as it expands. Bees Lariat power was focused in one area of Kisames body. The two are hardly comparable if at all.

Gai was not trying to kill? Gais priority was to get that scroll but that doesn't mean he didn't try to kill Kisame to take it from him. That makes no sense anyway. He uses an attack so powerful the explosion dwarfs Turtle Island several times over, yet he wasn't trying to kill? Right. How does that take away from ATs power anyway? Unless it was stated or implied in some way he lowered the power of the technique deliberately for Kisame to survive then the power was still the same. Since your claiming it was no where near full power because it went through GSB, then a full powered one would what? Dwarf turtle island 10, 15, or even 20 times over? That would destroy an entire country plus more and if it was as powerful as you say, everyone would have been caught in blast radius and died when Gai shot it at Madara, or at least hurt in the blast zone but they weren't.

I don't believe AT is hitting Ay directly anyway. The most it would do is catch him in the explosion.

 

[Gold Lightning]

^^^
Gonna have to agree here. Hirudora isn't A's biggest worry here. Kisame's body was unscathed after being hit from it. And no, Guy did not reduce the power of the attack (how is that even possible and where was it mentioned?).

The lightning armor will greatly reduce the damage of the attack. A traveled at light speed, without getting his body ripped to shreds, I'm sure Hirudora wont bring him down.

 

[A v i]

Gai managed to push Madara backwards because his striking speed is far above Minato not because he was faster than Minato or has better reactions than Minato.

Gai is a taijutsu specialist. IMO Gai's striking speed even in base is above Minato.

Having faster striking speed and reacting to opponents attack are two different things.

 

[Lariatoo]

Whoever wins will be extremilly high diff.

 

[Bronze]

If you really don't know to differ reaction from speed or striking-speed, then don't post. Really. Reaction/reflex is the ability to visualize events and processed by the brain. Gai has never shown any of that; but realistically, his brain after triggered by the Chakra of the Gates would visualize faster than an average Shinobi. The only thing we saw Gai doing against Madara, is his ability to strike and reach faster than Minato, and it's because his Gates enable him to use air force as a reach for that. If Gai had better reactions than Minato, he would have reacted

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; but, like Minato, Madara was too fast for him as well.

Ay is faster and his durability surpasses Kisame's, who survived Hirudora and was able to move after taking a direct hit. Inb4 Gai didn't want to kill Kisame, since it was never stated Gai is able to control the force applied to Hirudora, and hadn't done that as the blast was as big as the one he used on Susanoo. Ay's durability rivals his father, since both tanked light speed teleportation. He wins easily.

 

[Haizaki]

Just no..Seems I have to just drop my thoughts here.


When Gai tried to strike Kisame, what happened? Gai was fast enough to react and strike back with Kisame being unable to react. Shows Gai's reaction and striking speed.

Spoiler

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When BM Minato tried to attack Juubito what happened? Minato got reacted to but instead got hit and was slow to react before he got touched.

Spoiler

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When Minato tried to attack Madara? Madara's reacted by striking back. That showed both Madara's striking and reaction speed since Madara could react with a strike to Minato's attempt while Minato lacked what it took to react before he was hit 3 times by Madara

Spoiler

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Gai's case with Madara: (Notice his surprised face)

Spoiler

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Now from all these scans, it's safe to say we see both striking and reaction speed in a CQC battle from both opponents. When one strikes and the opponents reacts, the other opponents can retaliate as shown with Juubito's case. Madara had his staff but yet didn't have the opportunity to retaliate like other opponents did..Why? Simply because Gai reacts fast enough to deliver other blows and kicks before Madara gets the chance to do so? Don't even bother to say because he didn't want to when he struck Hirudora with his staff but somehow didn't hit Gai before AT like he did to Minato before..It was a combination of striking and reaction speed since he reacts fast enough to deliver those strikes leaving Madara completely unable to retaliate till Hiurodora.

Then we have people saying Hirudora didn't kill Kisame? But Hirudora somehow destroyed Susanoo? But Kisame somehow got ripped into shreds by his sharks? But Chidori gave Ay a flesh wound? But Raikiri failed to pierce through the V2 cloak? But Madara Susanoo>>>>V2?

Intel was what they wanted

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as you can see Gai in the next panel saying right to Aoba. Why didn't Gai kill Kisame here

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Any proof that he changed his mind? Nope. Naruto completely weakened Kakuzu and what did Kakashi do? Why didn't he change his mind and take him back for intel? Instead he finished him off as that was the goal. When it's Gai's case, it's a change of mind or something ridiculous when the goal and evidence doesn't agree with this.

Gai managed to push Madara backwards because his striking speed is far above Minato not because he was faster than Minato or has better reactions than Minato.

Gai is a taijutsu specialist. IMO Gai's striking speed even in base is above Minato.

Having faster striking speed and reacting to opponents attack are two different things.

Yeah I'd put you in my books of honest fans but he showed better reactions than Minato..Minato is only fast when teleporting from Point A to B. Though you're only half right

 

[ARGUS]

He has the ability to tank something on the level of AT ever since he well... he tanked it.

No he didnt, unlesss you're telling me that Kisame somehow has the durability above V3 susanoo?

AT is a pressurized blast of air that releases an explosion. The energy from the explosion is strongest in the middle and its weaker as it expands. Bees Lariat power was focused in one area of Kisames body. The two are hardly comparable if at all.

They are comparable since they are both mere blunt forces,, and are both a type of punch
V2 bees lariat would be lucky to breach V2 susanoo and above, yet it blew kisames chest off completely,
hirudora on the other hand busted V3 susanoo, and pushed madara to an extent where his control over the mokuton was completely diminshed,
claiming that lariat is stronger than hirudora would be like saying that V2 susanoo or ribcage are more durable than V3 susanoo
had it not been for GSB, kisame would have been dead,

Gai was not trying to kill? Gais priority was to get that scroll but that doesn't mean he didn't try to kill Kisame to take it from him. That makes no sense anyway. He uses an attack so powerful the explosion dwarfs Turtle Island several times over, yet he wasn't trying to kill?

they needed kisame for intel as well, so yeah he wasnt aiming to kill,

Right. How does that take away from ATs power anyway? Unless it was stated or implied in some way he lowered the power of the technique deliberately for Kisame to survive then the power was still the same. Since your claiming it was no where near full power because it went through GSB,

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, so yeah AT was weakened

then a full powered one would what? Dwarf turtle island 10, 15, or even 20 times over? That would destroy an entire country plus more and if it was as powerful as you say, everyone would have been caught in blast radius and died when Gai shot it at Madara, or at least hurt in the blast zone but they weren't.

The AOE of AT wont change, however GSB still took in most of the blast, so kisame was hit at nowhere near the full power of the blast,

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, thus causing more damage,
guy here simply

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which is why Kisame survived,
had he focused all that power towards Kisame, and he wouldve been eradicated, much worse than V3 susanoo

I don't believe AT is hitting Ay directly anyway. The most it would do is catch him in the explosion.

Nope,, when Guy managed to land AT directly towards Juubi Jin Madara,
then Ay is no problemm at all,
Guy approaches him in CQC,, ragdolls him with far superior reflexes and striking speed, and then kills him with hiirudora

Gai managed to push Madara backwards because his striking speed is far above Minato not because he was faster than Minato or has better reactions than Minato.

Better reactions is what allowed him to actuallly land blows on madara, and avoid his TSB,
minatos reactions were so primitive that he lost his arm and got raped the moment he attempted to attack Juubi Jin madara, despite being in SM
had minatos reactions been superior to guy, then he wouldve reacted to madara, but he didnt

Gai is a taijutsu specialist. IMO Gai's striking speed even in base is above Minato.

Having faster striking speed and reacting to opponents attack are two different things.

yep, but you need to have faster reactions to react, and faster striking speed to actually land the blows,
which is what you need in-order to win in a CQC combat,
speed itself is not what allows you to land the blows, otherwise tobirama wouldve defeated RT madara yet that clearly wasnt the case
guy here has both of them above minato or Ay, meaning that he beats them in combat,

 

[A v i]

Better reactions is what allowed him to actuallly land blows on madara, and avoid his TSB,
minatos reactions were so primitive that he lost his arm and got raped the moment he attempted to attack Juubi Jin madara, despite being in SM
had minatos reactions been superior to guy, then he wouldve reacted to madara, but he didnt

I'd suggest you to learn the difference b/w striking speed and reaction before quoting again. Guy has 0 reaction feats against Madara, everything he did is randomly throwing his attacks. As I said before Guys striking speed is far above Minato. Hell even base Gai is above SM Minato for all we know, that's why he managed to push Madara backwards where as Minato failed. 7th gate Gai never get a chance to display his reactions against Madara.

yep, but you need to have faster reactions to react, and faster striking speed to actually land the blows,
which is what you need in-order to win in a CQC combat,
speed itself is not what allows you to land the blows, otherwise tobirama wouldve defeated RT madara yet that clearly wasnt the case
guy here has both of them above minato or Ay, meaning that he beats them in combat,

Reaction = Something you'll do in response to your opponents attack. Ex: When Gai is about to use hirudora Madara noticed Gai is about to attack and swung his stick in response to Gai's attack. That's what you call reaction,7th gate Gai never had such a feat against Madara.

Yeah I'd put you in my books of honest fans but he showed better reactions than Minato..Minato is only fast when teleporting from Point A to B. Though you're only half right

In 7th gate? No, he never had a chance to show his reactions against Madara. Madara never attacked 7th Gate Gai to began with. When Madara swung his staff ,it was Madara who reacted to Gai's hirudora as he did it in response to incoming attack from Gai.

 

[Joseph Gomes]

Gai wins mid-high diff. Hirudora destroyed V3 susanoo. Ay is nowhere near Susanoo. By feats, Gai >>>> Ay. Ay doesn't have any comparable feat that puts him on Gai's level