Ay vs gai

[ToshiZO]

^Lol "meaning Gai would be able to react to Madara's strike while Minato can't"

No thats not how things work. Mid attack his attack rate is too fast for Madara to slide an attack in there. It's not because Gai will react to Madara's counter and attack first....he is already mid attack.......

 

[EZQ]

I suggest you think about this harder before replying again.

1. Minato attacks Gai. Minato's attack is slower than Madara's strike, Madara cuts his arm off before he can even react.

2. Gai attacks Madara, is so fast that instead of even trying to cut him down, he jumps back. Thus Gai's speed was too much for him to just cut him down.

Meaning Madara's attempt to cut him down would've failed, meaning Gai would be able to react to Madara's strike while Minato can't, thus Gai>Sage Minato in reaction speed.



Take Minato's penis out of your mouth and then reply to me fapboy.

This only means Gai was atacking Madara so fast that he didn't get the chance to counter atack like he did to minato. Nothing related to reaction speed here from Gai.

 

[KidGamer65]

This only means Gai was atacking Madara so fast that he didn't get the chance to counter atack like he did to minato. Nothing related to reaction speed here from Gai.

If Gai is attacking so fast that Madara can't strike, that means Gai strikes faster than Madara, meaning Gai would be able to react to Madara's strike, thus his reaction speed is above Minato's. The only two reasons that Madara would be unable to just cut Gai down are:

-He wasn't trying.
-He couldn't.

He was obviously putting in a certain amount of effort, so No. 2 is the obvious conclusion. This goes to the guy above you too. What reason would Madara be unable to counter attack like he did w/ Minato? The answer to that question determines the debate.

 

[EZQ]

If Gai is attacking so fast that Madara can't strike, that means Gai strikes faster than Madara, meaning Gai would be able to react to Madara's strike, thus his reaction speed is above Minato's. The only two reasons that Madara would be unable to just cut Gai down are:

-He wasn't trying.
-He couldn't.

He was obviously putting in a certain amount of effort, so No. 2 is the obvious conclusion.

It's weird to see such a flawed logic from you.

How the hell does that make sense? Gai striking faster than madara doesn't mean he can react to madara's striking speed.

Kakashi's striking speed was >>> this fodder's. But did that mean he could react to his counter? No, Kakashi was about to get killed

Spoiler

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Madara didn't have time to counter atack Gai's strike, due to Gai's impresive striking speed not letting him go out of defence mode. But that doesn't mean Gai could've reacted if Madara countered.

Gai having higher striking speed than madara doesn't mean his reaction speed is on par with it. The scan about chidori is proof.

Edit: I forgot to put the spoiler tags

 

[KidGamer65]

It's weird to see such a flawed logic from you.

How the hell does that make sense? Gai striking faster than madara doesn't mean he can react to madara's striking speed.

Kakashi's striking speed was >>> this fodder's. But did that mean he could react to his counter? No, Kakashi was about to get killed

Spoiler

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Madara didn't have time to counter atack Gai's strike, due to Gai's impresive striking speed not letting him go out of defence mode. But that doesn't mean Gai could've reacted if Madara countered.

Gai having higher striking speed than madara doesn't mean his reaction speed is on par with it. The scan about chidori is proof.

Spoiler

That's the second dumbest thing I've heard all day tbh. Gai not being able to react to a speed slower than his is tantamount to saying that he can't react to his own speed, and that makes absolutely no sense. If he can't react to his own speed then how in the world would he be able to move how he does in Gates?

Chidori is completely irrelevant for the most obvious of reasons.

1. This is not Chidori. So please don't compare it to Gai's strikes. Your point should end here, but I'll continue regardless.

2. Kakashi's problem wasn't reacting to his own speed, it was him moving so fast that he can't see his opponent's counter

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Keyword is "See". Has nothing to do with whether or not Kakashi himself is fast enough to react. That's why Sharingan is needed. It negates tunnel vision, allowing him to see the opponent's counter and react accordingly.

 

[ToshiZO]

This goes to the guy above you too. What reason would Madara be unable to counter attack like he did w/ Minato? The answer to that question determines the debate.

Attack rate is the reason. If you have a high attack rate (meaning amount of attacks in a short time span).

Spoiler

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Minato's attack speed might even be faster than Gai's but his attack rate is not like Gai's who doesn't allow for an offensive once he is mid attack.

 

[KidGamer65]

Attack rate is the reason. If you have a high attack rate (meaning amount of attacks in a short time span).

Spoiler

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Minato's attack speed might even be faster than Gai's but his attack rate is not like Gai's who doesn't allow for an offensive once he is mid attack.

Once again. You are wrong. If Gai can strike more than Minato can in the same amount of time, then it means his striking speed is superior. :lol Gai rushed Madara, Madara saw him, but instead of cutting him down before Gai's initial strike, Madara had to evade. Because he was not fast enough to just chop him down like he did to Minato.

I don't know how many times I have to explain this before you guys get it. Gai's "attack rate" or whatever you want to call it being superior to Minato and Madara's means that Gai's striking speed is faster.

 

[EZQ]

That's the second dumbest thing I've heard all day tbh. Gai not being able to react to a speed slower than his is tantamount to saying that he can't react to his own speed, and that makes absolutely no sense. If he can't react to his own speed then how in the world would he be able to move how he does in Gates?

Chidori is completely irrelevant for the most obvious of reasons.

1. This is not Chidori. So please don't compare it to Gai's strikes. Your point should end here, but I'll continue regardless.

2. Kakashi's problem wasn't reacting to his own speed, it was him moving so fast that he can't see his opponent's counter

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Keyword is "See". Has nothing to do with whether or not Kakashi himself is fast enough to react. That's why Sharingan is needed. It negates tunnel vision, allowing him to see the opponent's counter and react accordingly.

Damn i just erased my whole counter. I'll quote again in a while

 

[ToshiZO]

Once again. You are wrong. If Gai can strike more than Minato can in the same amount of time, then it means his striking speed is superior. :lol Gai rushed Madara, Madara saw him, but instead of cutting him down before Gai's initial strike, Madara had to evade. Because he was not fast enough to just chop him down like he did to Minato.

I don't know how many times I have to explain this before you guys get it. Gai's "attack rate" or whatever you want to call it being superior to Minato and Madara's means that Gai's striking speed is faster.

lol that's not even the point. You are somehow relating striking speed to reaction speed. This has nothing to do with Gai's reaction speed feats. Show me what he reacted to. Madara used one attack in the middle of Gai's onslaught and Gai couldn't react to it.

 

[KidGamer65]

lol that's not even the point. You are somehow relating striking speed to reaction speed. This has nothing to do with Gai's reaction speed feats. Show me what he reacted to. Madara used one attack in the middle of Gai's onslaught and Gai couldn't react to it.

I've explained it twice and you are literally replying with the same thing over and over again. This is as simple as it's ever going to get.

1. Minato attacks Madara. Minato is too slow so Minato gets cut.

2. Gai attacks Madara--->Gai is too fast so Madara doesn't cut him down like he did Minato. Thus Gai strike speed>Madara strike speed>Minato strike speed.

If Gai's striking speed is faster than Madara's, that means he can react to Madara's while Minato can't, thus Gai's reaction speed>SM Minato's reaction speed.

Now, an alternate explanation:

1. Minato attacks Madara. Minato is too slow so Minato gets cut.

2. Gai attacks Madara--->Gai is too fast so Madara doesn't' cut him down, instead he evades. Thus whatever attempt Madara made at striking would've been reacted to had he bothered to do it, thus Gai can react thus Gai reacts faster than Minato in Sage Mode.


And yes, that is the whole point. If Gai can strike at 100mph, then he'll obviously be able to react to something only striking at 90mph. If I can run 50mph, then I can obviously react to something running only 40mph

 

[ToshiZO]

I've explained it twice and you are literally replying with the same thing over and over again. This is as simple as it's ever going to get.

1. Minato attacks Madara. Minato is too slow so Minato gets cut.

2. Gai attacks Madara--->Gai is too fast so Madara doesn't cut him down like he did Minato. Thus Gai strike speed>Madara strike speed>Minato strike speed.

If Gai's striking speed is faster than Madara's, that means he can react to Madara's while Minato can't, thus Gai's reaction speed>SM Minato's reaction speed.

Now, an alternate explanation:

1. Minato attacks Madara. Minato is too slow so Minato gets cut.

2. Gai attacks Madara--->Gai is too fast so Madara doesn't' cut him down, instead he evades. Thus whatever attempt Madara made at striking would've been reacted to had he bothered to do it, thus Gai can react thus Gai reacts faster than Minato in Sage Mode.


And yes, that is the whole point. If Gai can strike at 100mph, then he'll obviously be able to react to something only striking at 90mph. If I can run 50mph, then I can obviously react to something running only 40mph

No this is where you're confused. He is already mid attack and his attack rate along with his striking speed is too fast for Madara to sneak in an attack. This is not because Gai would be able to react to Madara's attack rather his striking speed along with the rate he is throwing punches is so fast Madara cannot intercept.

 

[KidGamer65]

No this is where you're confused. He is already mid attack and his attack rate along with his striking speed is too fast for Madara to sneak in an attack. This is not because Gai would be able to react to Madara's attack rather his striking speed along with the rate he is throwing punches is so fast Madara cannot intercept.

Wrong. Already addressed this. :lol If Gai is punching so fast that Madara can't intercept, then it means that Gai punches faster than Madara. Not sure how hard it is to understand that simple fact.

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Not to mention Gai's initial strike was not blocked or countered, thus ending your argument about flurries of attacks being relevant. Gai wasn't even throwing a flurry of attacks so I have no idea where this claim came from.

A. Gai attacks.

B. Madara moves.

A. Gai attacks.

B. Madara moves.

A. Gai attacks.

B. Madara moves.

Nothing like Asa Kujaku, which you already used as a comparison, a flawed one.

The crazy part is, you didn't even address the first part. :lol Come on now.

 

[ToshiZO]

Wrong. Already addressed this. :lol If Gai is punching so fast that Madara can't intercept, then it means that Gai punches faster than Madara. Not sure how hard it is to understand that simple fact.

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Not to mention Gai's initial strike was not blocked or countered, thus ending your argument about flurries of attacks being relevant. Gai wasn't even throwing a flurry of attacks so I have no idea where this claim came from.

A. Gai attacks.

B. Madara moves.

A. Gai attacks.

B. Madara moves.

A. Gai attacks.

B. Madara moves.

Nothing like Asa Kujaku, which you already used as a comparison, a flawed one.

The crazy part is, you didn't even address the first part. :lol Come on now.

1. I only used Asa Kujaku to show you what attack rate means.

2. Madara was underestimating the speed of Gai in 7 Gates

3. Gai's initial strike was

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You need to educate yourself with the different types of speeds. What Gai used initially to close the gap between him and Madara was his movement speed, his actual combat speed starts in the panel below that and Madara blocked or dodged every single strike.

4. Madara attacked once and Gai did not react to his punch.

 

[KidGamer65]

1. I only used Asa Kujaku to show you what attack rate means.

2. Madara was underestimating the speed of Gai in 7 Gates

3. Gai's initial strike was

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You need to educate yourself with the different types of speeds. What Gai used initially to close the gap between him and Madara was his movement speed, his actual combat speed starts in the panel below that and Madara blocked or dodged every single strike.

4. Madara attacked once and Gai did not react to his punch.

#2 is not a counter and it's just your assumption to boot.

#3 is you showing me that you can't read the Manga. Did Madara do

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to Gai when he initially came at him? Yes or no? Simple question. If no, then you have no point. If yes, then you better show me the scans. The fact that he could not do that means that Gai's striking speed was too fast.

What you need to do is educate yourself on speed and reactions. If Gai strikes at a certain speed, it's proof he can react to that speed, and by extension anything slower. Your posts have come down to you blatantly ignoring my arguments, that's how I know that you make no sense.

#4 is only you repeating the same irrelevant nonsense I've addressed over 5x now.

1. Minato attacks Madara. Minato is too slow so Minato gets cut.

2. Gai attacks Madara--->Gai is too fast so Madara doesn't cut him down like he did Minato. Thus Gai strike speed>Madara strike speed>Minato strike speed.

If Gai's striking speed is faster than Madara's, that means he can react to Madara's while Minato can't, thus Gai's reaction speed>SM Minato's reaction speed.

Don't ignore it this time.

 

[EZQ]

@KG this is just a summary and my last reply on this subject. It was more elaborated first lol.

Kakashi couldn't see the counter because his vision was disorted at high speed. Meaning that, the oponents counter was in fact inside his field of vision, but since it was disorted because of the speed, Kakashi couldn't see it as a counter.

Kakashi's eyes couldn't interpretate what that disorted movement was, ignoring it was a counter from the enemy, but kakashi was in fact seeing it. How come? He could see it (see it and interpretate ir as a counter) when he gained sharingan, which doesn't increase one's field of vision, it just increases reflexes.

So kakashi was seeing the counter, he was making visual contact with it, but his eyes couldn't interpretate it due to the distort at high speed.

What is reacting? Its a chain of actions. Since you see with your eyes, the infro is chanelled trough your brain, and then you get the response.

That's what failed to Kakashi, so, he in fact couldn't react to the enemies counters, because he couldn't see it, but it was in fact on his field of vision.

Gai's speed could generate this tunel vision too, since his naked eye is a naked eye after all, and his speed is greater than Kakashi when he performs chidori, but this is out of subecjt, i'm just saying it is possible that at high speed, you can't react to some speed lower than yours.

Reaction speed has nothing to do with striking speed at all.

Ay's speed > Sasuke's. But Ay atacked him so fast that Sasuke, with a lower speed than Ay's, made a counter and stabbed him in the chest.

Gai not letting Madara make a counter has nothing to do with he being able to react to this counter.

 

[ToshiZO]

#2 is not a counter and it's just your assumption to boot.

Not really when he clearly said

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#3 is you showing me that you can't read the Manga. Did Madara do

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to Gai when he initially came at him? Yes or no? Simple question. If no, then you have no point. If yes, then you better show me the scans. The fact that he could not do that means that Gai's striking speed was too fast.

lol do you read over what you type before you type it? Listen to yourself. This is your own quote "Not to mention Gai's initial strike was not blocked or countered"

I simply replied to that.

#4 is only you repeating the same irrelevant nonsense I've addressed over 5x now.

Gai never intended to throw a fatal blow with his earlier strikes. Madara was dodging and blocking because that's all that was required out of him, Minato had a rasengan charged up something that could deal damage and something he'd rather not block. As soon as Madara

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he was going for an actual damaging blow Madara

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Gai.

Madara was only doing what was required of him.

 

[KidGamer65]

@KG this is just a summary and my last reply on this subject. It was more elaborated first lol.

Kakashi couldn't see the counter because his vision was disorted at high speed. Meaning that, the oponents counter was in fact inside his field of vision, but since it was disorted because of the speed, Kakashi couldn't see it as a counter.

Thus his vision is the problem. :lol And vision issues are irrelevant here.

Kakashi's eyes couldn't interpretate what that disorted movement was, ignoring it was a counter from the enemy, but kakashi was in fact seeing it. How come? He could see it (see it and interpretate ir as a counter) when he gained sharingan, which doesn't increase one's field of vision, it just increases reflexes.


So kakashi was seeing the counter, he was making visual contact with it, but his eyes couldn't interpretate it due to the distort at high speed.

What is reacting? Its a chain of actions. Since you see with your eyes, the infro is chanelled trough your brain, and then you get the response.

I don't know what you think you are proving here, but Kakashi not being able to interpret the counter despite it being in his field of vision is just your poor attempt at rearranging what Minato stated. End result is=Kakashi doesn't see the movement, thus he can't react. Has nothing to do with him being fast enough to react or not. Don't try to argue against this when the Manga clearly states it.

That's what failed to Kakashi, so, he in fact couldn't react to the enemies counters, because he couldn't see it, but it was in fact on his field of vision.

Lmao. Which is irrelevant, because you are supposed to be proving that Kakashi didn't react because of his own reaction speed, not because he can't register the opponent's counter. If he can't register the opponent's counter than him being fast enough to react is irrelevant.

Gai's speed could generate this tunel vision too, since his naked eye is a naked eye after all, and his speed is greater than Kakashi when he performs chidori, but this is out of subecjt, i'm just saying it is possible that at high speed, you can't react to some speed lower than yours.

Baseless assumption invented to support your point since no real evidence supports it. Am I going to say that:

-Minato.
-KCM Naruto.
-Hashirama.
-Tobirama

etc.

All get tunnel vision when moving at top speed because they move faster than Kid Kakashi? Obviously not.

Reaction speed has nothing to do with striking speed at all.

Ay's speed > Sasuke's. But Ay atacked him so fast that Sasuke, with a lower speed than Ay's, made a counter and stabbed him in the chest.

Gai not letting Madara make a counter has nothing to do with he being able to react to this counter.

Your Ay point literally makes no sense. Ay being faster than Sasuke doesn't mean that Sasuke can't react to Ay's speed nor do you have to be moving as fast as something to dodge it in all cases. How in the world does this even relate to anything you are saying?

Reaction speed having nothing to do with striking speed makes zero sense. I know, Kishimoto knows it too.

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A pic of Gai attacking is posted in the databook, and it clearly states that Gai can combat unarmed opponents due to his "quick as a flash" reflexes. Why would there be a pic of him attacking if attacking had nothing to do with your reaction speed? :lol

Has been addressed anyway:

1. Minato attacks Madara. Minato is too slow so Minato gets cut.

2. Gai attacks Madara--->Gai is too fast so Madara doesn't cut him down like he did Minato. Thus Gai strike speed>Madara strike speed>Minato strike speed.

If Gai's striking speed is faster than Madara's, that means he can react to Madara's while Minato can't, thus Gai's reaction speed>SM Minato's reaction speed.

 

[KidGamer65]

Not really when he clearly said

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lol do you read over what you type before you type it? Listen to yourself. This is your own quote "Not to mention Gai's initial strike was not blocked or countered"

I simply replied to that.



Gai never intended to throw a fatal blow with his earlier strikes. Madara was dodging and blocking because that's all that was required out of him, Minato had a rasengan charged up something that could deal damage and something he'd rather not block. As soon as Madara

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he was going for an actual damaging blow Madara

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Gai.

Madara was only doing what was required of him.

Madara said that Gai is underestimating him. Not vice versa.

Yet you didn't bother to reply to the part that actually mattered to the argument. :lol

-Gai throwing a fatal blow or not is irrelevant to the argument as a whole and your main point since Minato, your second example, wasn't throwing a fatal blow either. Especially when he is durable enough to take Evening Elephant, and has Juubi's regen to boot.

-Madara only dodging and not attacking is an assumption on your part. His reaction to each and every threat has been to cut it down, yet he doesn't do so to Gai...just because? Yeah, right. Nice try though. Madara attacked when he did because that is when he had the opportunity to do so.

 

[EZQ]

Thus his vision is the problem. :lol And vision issues are irrelevant here.

Vision issues at high speed with a naked eye. Which are a big deal on this argument

I don't know what you think you are proving here, but Kakashi not being able to interpret the counter despite it being in his field of vision is just your poor attempt at rearranging what Minato stated. End result is=Kakashi doesn't see the movement, thus he can't react. Has nothing to do with him being fast enough to react or not. Don't try to argue against this when the Manga clearly states it.

Kakashi does see the movement, but its too fast for him to even know what it is, let alone reacting to it.

@bold: You already mixed the reaction speed with the ability to dodge with speed.

Lmao. Which is irrelevant, because you are supposed to be proving that Kakashi didn't react because of his own reaction speed, not because he can't register the opponent's counter. If he can't register the opponent's counter than him being fast enough to react is irrelevant.

Interpretating is the first part of reacting. Its a chain of reactions from the eyes to the brain.
Gai could be experimenting this perfectly at his monstrous speed, which is a lot higer than Kakashi's.

*I could be running against my enemy punching the air randomly as fast as i can, hoping to punch him, and the speed of my punches is way faster than my enemy's. Does that mean that i'm gonna be able to react to his counter despite of it being slower?

Exactly what happened to Ay against Sasuke.

Baseless assumption invented to support your point since no real evidence supports it. Am I going to say that:

-Minato.
-KCM Naruto.
-Hashirama.
-Tobirama

etc.

All get tunnel vision when moving at top speed because they move faster than Kid Kakashi? Obviously not.



Your Ay point literally makes no sense. Ay being faster than Sasuke doesn't mean that Sasuke can't react to Ay's speed nor do you have to be moving as fast as something to dodge it in all cases. How in the world does this even relate to anything you are saying?

How does it make no sense? Its the same that happened to minato. He made an atack too fast, and was countered easely. But this time, the one countering was slower than the one atacking.

Ay couldn't react to a speed lower than his.

Reaction speed having nothing to do with striking speed makes zero sense. I know, Kishimoto knows it too.

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A pic of Gai attacking is posted in the databook, and it clearly states that Gai can combat unarmed opponents due to his "quick as a flash" reflexes. Why would there be a pic of him attacking if attacking had nothing to do with your reaction speed? :lol

Has been addressed anyway:

They posted that pic because it shows Gai on CQC which requires good reflexes. There isn't a pic of Gai dodging anything.

Edit: arranged a part of my post.

 

[KidGamer65]

Vision issues at high speed with a naked eye. Which are a big deal on this argument

Vision issues with Kakashi moving at high speeds. The main issue is vision issues. Unrelated to Kakashi being able to do so or not via his own reaction speed.

Kakashi does see the movement, but its too fast for him to even know what it is, let alone reacting to it.

What? Now you are blatantly ignoring what Minato states in favor of your own opinion. Minato states that Kakashi can't react because he can't see the counter. Why are you still trying to force your interpretation here when it's clearly wrong.

Kakashi moves so fast that he can't see the next movement, or process it. Same conclusion. Not sure where the bold came from, but it was never stated. Not once.

@bold: You already mixed the reaction speed with the ability to dodge with speed.




Interpretating is the first part of reacting. Its a chain of reactions from the eyes to the brain.
Gai could be experimenting this perfectly at his monstrous speed, which is a lot higer than Kakashi's.

No, I didn't. I addressed all this. Repeating the definition of reaction and not countering the main points aren't helping you here.

1. Minato attacks Madara. Minato is too slow so Minato gets cut.

2. Gai attacks Madara--->Gai is too fast so Madara doesn't cut him down like he did Minato. Thus Gai strike speed>Madara strike speed>Minato strike speed.

If Gai's striking speed is faster than Madara's, that means he can react to Madara's while Minato can't, thus Gai's reaction speed>SM Minato's reaction speed.

How does it make no sense? Its the same that happened to minato. He made an atack too fast, and was countered easely. But this time, the one countering was slower than the one atacking.

Ay couldn't react to a speed lower than his.

What? :lol Where? You mean against Madara? Because that is not even close to what happened. He tried to attack and failed because he was cut down before he could react.

Wrong. Ay was mid attack, thus even if he could react (which he obviously can) he can't evade since he's already attacked. Has nothing to do with tunnel vision, him being unable to do so because he was too slow or any of that nonsense you are implying.

They posted that pic because it shows Gai on CQC which requires good reflexes. There isn't a pic of Gai dodging anything.

Yes. CQC=Attack and Defense.