[Discussion] Atheist response to homosexuality and religion (SERIOUS THREAD)

[FitzChivalry Farseer]

From a impartial standpoint. [From a perspective of general atheism]

(From the assumption that god is a falsity) These are not Christain, Jewish or Islamic Cultures, so they're beliefs would differ from those who created the bible.

Even within biblical texts many pagan nations were mentioned, such nations did not follow the beliefs of those who created the bible.

That's definitely right, ok so you answered my first question quite nicely now on to the next

How would oppressing homosexuality benefit a leader striving to lead his ppl?

 

[Tingun]

That's definitely right, ok so you answered my first question quite nicely now on to the next

How would oppressing homosexuality benefit a leader striving to lead his ppl?

Social uniformity.

 

[Funky Tiger]

Our mindset is that whenever humans have sexual relationships, the prospect of reproduction just has to be there. So, people having sexual relationships with others of the same *** and thus eliminating the prospect of reproduction was even alien to most societies, and it seemed to disrupt order, which according to them was wrong. So, they developed an anti-homosexualist mentality.

 

[FitzChivalry Farseer]

I'll answer anyways.


I think the idea of homosexuality comes from by the fact being don't see it being normal. To males being together and to females together, doesn't seem to be right. Being that "normal" sexuality, is a man and woman.
Back then, men use to do it with eachother all the time. Use to have little *** fests but I won't go into that because I'm already containing my pervert thoughts.

And now I think the idea of there being no god, has been around as long religion itself, and that noone really expressed it because .... maybe they feared. They would get burned alive or hunged. I mean jews had a hard time trying to strive. It would've probably been way worse. Atheism usually results from someone not believing in their religion because they went in despair or had a hard time in life, and thought of help for a god. But none was recieved.Well the stories I have heard from atheist I encountered, ofcourse. My assumption, could be completely wrong, but Im just basing it off the knowledge I have recieved from the ones I have encountered, which have been a quite a lot. Internet roams of them. XD

Yeah that's the answer I've been getting in this thread. However can you answer my second question that I posted up there?


Your answer was great also

 

[Urda]

Well if you believe in God then yes it did start with the bible but if you don't then it started with an idea. All I'm trying to do is wrap my head around why someone thought that idea.

The idea was only brought to the attention of people who do not read the bible from the people who read the bible. If someone says why homosexuality is wrong and shun or look down upon is because God deems it so, those are they words of the bible, God himself.

• Lev. 18:22, "You shall not lie with a male as one lies with a female; it is an abomination."
  
• Lev. 20:13, "If there is a man who lies with a male as those who lie with a woman, both of them have committed a detestable act; they shall surely be put to death. Their bloodguiltness is upon them"
  
• 1 Cor. 6:9-10, "Or do you not know that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor homosexuals, 10nor thieves, nor the covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers, shall inherit the kingdom of God."
  
• Rom. 1:26-28, "For this reason God gave them over to degrading passions; for their women exchanged the natural function for that which is unnatural, 27 and in the same way also the men abandoned the natural function of the woman and burned in their desire toward one another, men with men committing indecent acts and receiving in their own persons the due penalty of their error. 28 And just as they did not see fit to acknowledge God any longer, God gave them over to a depraved mind, to do those things which are not proper."

It is sort of ridiculous. You would stop loving your child, mother, father, etc because God says it is a sin. Are you kidding me? This is the same God who calls to witness death by standing in our presence, while not preventing it. He is someone I can not call God. I damn him.

 

[FitzChivalry Farseer]

Social uniformity.

Can you elaborate? Threes many examples of current societies right now that have social uniformity but are not better than the United States which is a more individualistic society.

The idea was only brought to the attention of people who do not read the bible from the people who read the bible. If someone says why homosexuality is wrong and shun or look down upon is because God deems it so, those are they words of the bible, God himself.

• Lev. 18:22, "You shall not lie with a male as one lies with a female; it is an abomination."
  
• Lev. 20:13, "If there is a man who lies with a male as those who lie with a woman, both of them have committed a detestable act; they shall surely be put to death. Their bloodguiltness is upon them"
  
• 1 Cor. 6:9-10, "Or do you not know that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor homosexuals, 10nor thieves, nor the covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers, shall inherit the kingdom of God."
  
• Rom. 1:26-28, "For this reason God gave them over to degrading passions; for their women exchanged the natural function for that which is unnatural, 27 and in the same way also the men abandoned the natural function of the woman and burned in their desire toward one another, men with men committing indecent acts and receiving in their own persons the due penalty of their error. 28 And just as they did not see fit to acknowledge God any longer, God gave them over to a depraved mind, to do those things which are not proper."

Yes but there was humans before the bible came around. Before Moses got his first epiphany from God to write Genesis. These ppl were already knew deep into homosexuality. So how does a whole society just change their point of view of homosexuality if (by atheists logic) god ddnt exist to tell them that it was wrong?

 

[Tingun]

Can you elaborate? Threes many examples of current societies right now that have social uniformity but are not better than the United States which is a more individualistic society.

Individualism is widespread in almost every 1st world country.
Today's society isn't comparable to that of past ancient societies, as humans as a whole have for the most part separated church and state, which means besides personal morality, does not prohibit homosexuality. In fact, the only reason gay marriage isn't fully legal in the states is because while church and state are separate, it did not begin this way, and because of this much of American culture and tradition is tied deeply with the Christian faith, as is true with many other countries.

You can have pre and post enlightenment examples if you want though.

 

[FitzChivalry Farseer]

The idea was only brought to the attention of people who do not read the bible from the people who read the bible. If someone says why homosexuality is wrong and shun or look down upon is because God deems it so, those are they words of the bible, God himself.

• Lev. 18:22, "You shall not lie with a male as one lies with a female; it is an abomination."
  
• Lev. 20:13, "If there is a man who lies with a male as those who lie with a woman, both of them have committed a detestable act; they shall surely be put to death. Their bloodguiltness is upon them"
  
• 1 Cor. 6:9-10, "Or do you not know that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor homosexuals, 10nor thieves, nor the covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers, shall inherit the kingdom of God."
  
• Rom. 1:26-28, "For this reason God gave them over to degrading passions; for their women exchanged the natural function for that which is unnatural, 27 and in the same way also the men abandoned the natural function of the woman and burned in their desire toward one another, men with men committing indecent acts and receiving in their own persons the due penalty of their error. 28 And just as they did not see fit to acknowledge God any longer, God gave them over to a depraved mind, to do those things which are not proper."

It is sort of ridiculous. You would stop loving your child, mother, father, etc because God says it is a sin. Are you kidding me? This is the same God who calls to witness death by standing in our presence, while not preventing it. He is someone I can not call God. I damn him.

Please edit your comment, I said no flaming and I will not run the risk of having this thread deleted. Thank you

 

[Urda]

Yes but there was humans before the bible came around. Before Moses got his first epiphany from God to write Genesis. These ppl were already knew deep into homosexuality. So how does a whole society just change their point of view of homosexuality if (by atheists logic) god ddnt exist to tell them that it was wrong?

We know how this works, "It was a sign from God".

Please edit your comment, I said no flaming and I will not run the risk of having this thread deleted. Thank you

No flaming. You would always have these risk when speaking of Christianity or religion of that matter. You would have to accept whereever you go, that is life.

Also, I am not removing the comment.

 

[FitzChivalry Farseer]

Individualism is widespread in almost every 1st world country.
Today's society isn't comparable to that of past ancient societies, as humans as a whole have for the most part separated church and state, which means besides personal morality, does not prohibit homosexuality.

You can have pre and post enlightenment examples if you want though.

So your saying that by sticking to a certain way of life that it made a group stronger than other factions at their time?

We know how this works, "It was a sign from God".

Um no this thread is not about proving Gods power. It's a serious topic and your religious intolerance is stopping you from adding anything useful.

 

[Tingun]

So your saying that by sticking to a certain way of life that it made a group stronger than other factions at their time?

No, by sticking to a certain way of life, earlier civilizations could control their masses of citizens through the most optimal methods.

It could improve the overall strength of a faction but not in all cases.

 

[FitzChivalry Farseer]

No, by sticking to a certain way of life, earlier civilizations could control their masses of citizens through the most optimal methods.

It could improve the overall strength of a faction but not in all cases.

That's what I meant lol

Ok would that be any way of life as long as they stuck to it?

 

[Tingun]

That's what I meant lol

Ok would that be any way of life as long as they stuck to it?

Usually, as long as the civilizations were governed by some form of theological belief system or by divine right.

 

[FitzChivalry Farseer]

We know how this works, "It was a sign from God".



No flaming. You would always have these risk when speaking of Christianity or religion of that matter. You would have to accept whereever you go, that is life.

Also, I am not removing the comment.

You that speak so highly of yourself that even God is put down for his murderous ways. Why don't you prove that your better and accept that your wrong for flaming. I mean that shouldn't be so hard as compared to those examples you have me from the bible.

Usually, as long as the civilizations were governed by some form of theological belief system or by divine right.

So how did many religions almost come to the same conclusion for various topics like murder, theft, deceivement, and homosexuality? Were they just jumping into a bandwagon of righteous ideas?

 

[Urda]

Um no this thread is not about proving Gods power. It's a serious topic and your religious intolerance is stopping you from adding anything useful.

I understand my friend, my relationship to an unknown deity is causing discomfort - I do apologize.

Where do you think the idea of homosexuality being immoral originates from? How did this idea originate if there was no God?

Now to your question. In short, no one knows where homosexuality originates. It cannot be pointed out on a timeline or a date written in a history book. In other words, "it was a sign from God". Their is always a God for people to believe in.

How would that be beneficial in leading people? Why would it be important in the first place?

It did not benefit the people. It benefit themselves. They curse the "not norm" of society as they seen it as inhuman. Of course, to instill the word into others they improvise and calling it the word of God. To let it be known, their word was spread far and high. This caught on and no one was safe.

A little short story. >_>

 

[Tingun]

So how did many religions almost come to the same conclusion for various topics like murder, theft, deceivement, and homosexuality? Were they just jumping into a bandwagon of righteous ideas?

Spoiler

15 Great Principles Shared by All Religions

The Golden Rule / Law of Reciprocity – The cornerstone of religious understanding. “Do unto others what you would have them do unto you.” – Christianity

Honor Thy Father and Mother – Knowing them is the key to knowing ourselves. The day will come when we shall wish we had known them better.

Speak the Truth – “Sincerity is the way of heaven, and to think how to be sincere is the way of a man.” – Confucius
It’s More Blessed to Give than to Receive – Generosity, charity and kindness will open an individual to an unbounded reservoir of riches.

Heaven is Within – “Even as the scent dwells within the flower, so God within thine own heart forever abides.” - Sikhism
Love Thy Neighbor / Conquer With Love / All You Need is Love – Acts of faith, prayer and deep meditation provide us with the strength that allows love for our fellow man to become an abiding part of our lives. Love is a unifying force.

Blessed Are the Peacemakers – When people live in the awareness that there is a close kinship between all individuals and nations, peace is the natural result.

You Reap What You Sow – This is the great mystery of human life. Aware or unaware, all are ruled by this inevitable law of nature.

Man Does Not Live by Bread Alone – The blessings of life are deeper than what can be appreciated by the senses.

Do No Harm – If someone tries to hurt another, it means that she is perceiving that person as something separate and foreign from herself.

Forgiveness – The most beautiful thing a man can do is to forgive wrong. - Judaism

Judge Not, Lest Ye Be Judged – This principle is an expression of the underlying truth that mankind is one great family, and that we all spring from a common source.

Be Slow to Anger – Anger clouds the mind in the very moments that clarity and objectivity are needed most. “He who holds back rising anger like a rolling chariot, him I call a real driver; others only hold the reins.” - Buddha

There is But One God / God is Love – Nature, Being, The Absolute. Whatever name man chooses, there is but one God. All people and all things are of one essence.

Follow the Spirit of the Scriptures, Not the Words – “Study the words, no doubt, but look behind them to the thought they indicate; And having found it, throw the words away, as chaff when you have sifted out the grain.” – Hinduism

As you can see above, the 15 most common principles in monotheistic (or similar) religions are simply rules to promote societal goodness. However, what is interesting is the details within some of the beliefs involving heaven and such.

From a perspective in atheism, it could be said that the religions are all distant denominations of one greater parent religion.

From a theological perspective, it is most likely to be assumed that all of the these common religions either:
A. Where created and reflected the same or similar events with different perspectives drawn.
B. Spiritual events being in different parts of the world caused different religions to form because of the different cultures.

 

[FitzChivalry Farseer]

I understand my friend, my relationship to an unknown deity is causing discomfort - I do apologize.

Where do you think the idea of homosexuality being immoral originates from? How did this idea originate if there was no God?

Now to your question. In short, no one knows where homosexuality originates. It cannot be pointed out on a timeline or a date written in a history book. In other words, "it was a sign from God". Their is always a God for people to believe in.

How would that be beneficial in leading people? Why would it be important in the first place?

It did not benefit the people. It benefit them. They curse the "not norm" of society as they seen it as inhuman. Of course, to instill the word into others they improvise and calling it the word of God. To let it be known, their word was spread far and high. This caught on and no one was safe.

A little short story. >_>

Thank you, that was very honorable of you to own up to a mistake. Not many members can do that in NB. Your answers were indeed insightful. Me and Ting ring have been discussing already the reasons behind using sticking to a certain way of life

Spoiler

15 Great Principles Shared by All Religions

The Golden Rule / Law of Reciprocity – The cornerstone of religious understanding. “Do unto others what you would have them do unto you.” – Christianity

Honor Thy Father and Mother – Knowing them is the key to knowing ourselves. The day will come when we shall wish we had known them better.

Speak the Truth – “Sincerity is the way of heaven, and to think how to be sincere is the way of a man.” – Confucius
It’s More Blessed to Give than to Receive – Generosity, charity and kindness will open an individual to an unbounded reservoir of riches.

Heaven is Within – “Even as the scent dwells within the flower, so God within thine own heart forever abides.” - Sikhism
Love Thy Neighbor / Conquer With Love / All You Need is Love – Acts of faith, prayer and deep meditation provide us with the strength that allows love for our fellow man to become an abiding part of our lives. Love is a unifying force.

Blessed Are the Peacemakers – When people live in the awareness that there is a close kinship between all individuals and nations, peace is the natural result.

You Reap What You Sow – This is the great mystery of human life. Aware or unaware, all are ruled by this inevitable law of nature.

Man Does Not Live by Bread Alone – The blessings of life are deeper than what can be appreciated by the senses.

Do No Harm – If someone tries to hurt another, it means that she is perceiving that person as something separate and foreign from herself.

Forgiveness – The most beautiful thing a man can do is to forgive wrong. - Judaism

Judge Not, Lest Ye Be Judged – This principle is an expression of the underlying truth that mankind is one great family, and that we all spring from a common source.

Be Slow to Anger – Anger clouds the mind in the very moments that clarity and objectivity are needed most. “He who holds back rising anger like a rolling chariot, him I call a real driver; others only hold the reins.” - Buddha

There is But One God / God is Love – Nature, Being, The Absolute. Whatever name man chooses, there is but one God. All people and all things are of one essence.

Follow the Spirit of the Scriptures, Not the Words – “Study the words, no doubt, but look behind them to the thought they indicate; And having found it, throw the words away, as chaff when you have sifted out the grain.” – Hinduism

As you can see above, the 15 most common principles in monotheistic (or similar) religions are simply rules to promote societal goodness. However, what is interesting is the details within some of the beliefs involving heaven and such.

From a perspective in atheism, it could be said that the religions are all distant denominations of one greater parent religion.

From a theological perspective, it is most likely to be assumed that all of the these common religions either:
A. Where created and reflected the same or similar events with different perspectives drawn.
B. Spiritual events being in different parts of the world caused different religions to form because of the different cultures.

This is an outstanding idea. That all religions mightve come from one single source but through the centuries everything was broken down. I don't think archeologists are ever gonna find that source. Seems to me that it's already blowing in the wind. Still though I'm hooked and I want to research it even further.

Spoiler

15 Great Principles Shared by All Religions

The Golden Rule / Law of Reciprocity – The cornerstone of religious understanding. “Do unto others what you would have them do unto you.” – Christianity

Honor Thy Father and Mother – Knowing them is the key to knowing ourselves. The day will come when we shall wish we had known them better.

Speak the Truth – “Sincerity is the way of heaven, and to think how to be sincere is the way of a man.” – Confucius
It’s More Blessed to Give than to Receive – Generosity, charity and kindness will open an individual to an unbounded reservoir of riches.

Heaven is Within – “Even as the scent dwells within the flower, so God within thine own heart forever abides.” - Sikhism
Love Thy Neighbor / Conquer With Love / All You Need is Love – Acts of faith, prayer and deep meditation provide us with the strength that allows love for our fellow man to become an abiding part of our lives. Love is a unifying force.

Blessed Are the Peacemakers – When people live in the awareness that there is a close kinship between all individuals and nations, peace is the natural result.

You Reap What You Sow – This is the great mystery of human life. Aware or unaware, all are ruled by this inevitable law of nature.

Man Does Not Live by Bread Alone – The blessings of life are deeper than what can be appreciated by the senses.

Do No Harm – If someone tries to hurt another, it means that she is perceiving that person as something separate and foreign from herself.

Forgiveness – The most beautiful thing a man can do is to forgive wrong. - Judaism

Judge Not, Lest Ye Be Judged – This principle is an expression of the underlying truth that mankind is one great family, and that we all spring from a common source.

Be Slow to Anger – Anger clouds the mind in the very moments that clarity and objectivity are needed most. “He who holds back rising anger like a rolling chariot, him I call a real driver; others only hold the reins.” - Buddha

There is But One God / God is Love – Nature, Being, The Absolute. Whatever name man chooses, there is but one God. All people and all things are of one essence.

Follow the Spirit of the Scriptures, Not the Words – “Study the words, no doubt, but look behind them to the thought they indicate; And having found it, throw the words away, as chaff when you have sifted out the grain.” – Hinduism

As you can see above, the 15 most common principles in monotheistic (or similar) religions are simply rules to promote societal goodness. However, what is interesting is the details within some of the beliefs involving heaven and such.

From a perspective in atheism, it could be said that the religions are all distant denominations of one greater parent religion.

From a theological perspective, it is most likely to be assumed that all of the these common religions either:
A. Where created and reflected the same or similar events with different perspectives drawn.
B. Spiritual events being in different parts of the world caused different religions to form because of the different cultures.

This is an outstanding idea. That all religions mightve come from one single source but through the centuries everything was broken down. I don't think archeologists are ever gonna find that source. Seems to me that it's already blowing in the wind. Still though I'm hooked and I want to research it even further.

 

[Kage of the Hood]

i think homosexuality is not a choice, i cant bring myself to think otherwise..!!

i think people are born homo or straight, and its not a choice...

in case im wrong, i wud like to know why wud they choose to be this way...

i cant bring myself to understand this thing...!!

Girls choose sometimes... Guys are born like that

 

[Stark]

From a impartial standpoint.

In atheism it would be believed that humans wrote the bible. Therefor humans produced all the ideals that are expressed through the new and old testament.

In this case the Idea of anti-homosexuality would most likely be because of the lack of natural occurrence, seeing as the natural case would be a male mating with a female to reproduce.

It should be far to easy to realize that humans naturally detest of things that are different and things that they cannot understand, therefor if suddenly a male wishes to find a male mate or a female wants to find a female mate, it will obviously result in controversy, which would lead to negative views, which would lead to hate, and eventually prosecution.

I agree, back in the old days it was uncommon for mixed relations thus making it a uncommon occurrence. Men were so concerned with keeping lineages going, if they were homosexual they would conceal it since it would be unnatural and it would draw attention towards other people with strong beliefs. It was important to work towards a son so that he may continue on with the families name whether peasant or someone of higher standing.

I know nothing of Atheism so I cannot answer the OP questions. I fully support homosexuality and I am a Christian, but I am straight, I simply believe that people should choose who they want to end up with.

 

[Kishi Uzumaki]

If religion says it's immoral how can world evolve . i don't know about other religions but in Buddhism it is not considered immoral It only says not to go the wrong way for sexual pleasure . if you go wrong way for sexual pleasure then it's immoral .