And what Indra and Ashura both had were basically watered down versions War Naruto & Sasuke's powers. Indra - had rikudou chakra & a watered down "eye power" Hagoromo's Rinnegan (Sharingan), Asura had Rikudou chakra & a watered down "bodily power" of Hagoromo's Six Paths Sage Mode (his doesn't have a name)
I'm actually curious to what his mode was because many people believe it was Rikudou Senjutsu and I have for a very long time only until recently that I'm beginning to realize that this actually doesn't make much sense at all.
First of all, it was stated that through Ashura's suffering and hard work that his chakra bloomed within his body and obtained the same power as Indra did:
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Indra also never awakened a Six Paths Power through his own Chakra as only Hagoromo and Madara were stated to have awakened the Rinnegan implying that Indra's chakra was incapable of doing so:
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So it's illogical to assume Ashura's chakra alone awakened a Six Paths Power (Rikudou Senjutsu) while Indra's Chakra couldn't as both of their Chakras were stated to be equal and thus, have the same potential. But this leaves the question such as "What Mode did Ashura really have?" It's possible we can take a deeper look at how Naruto/Sasuke parallels Ashura/Indra to identify what mode Ashura really had.
Through Ashura/Indra, we're given visual representation of how both of Ashura and Indra's Chakra were actually equal:
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And with Naruto/Sasuke and how they parallel Ashura/Indra, we're also given a visual representation of how their abilities both stack up:
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Since Naruto/Sasuke parallels Ashura/Indra, we're given a visual representation of Sasuke awakening Perfect Susano'o much like Indra did and like Indra, rivaled Ashura's own manifestation of chakra. Is it possible that since Sasuke also awakened Perfect Susano'o like Indra did that Naruto awakened a similar mode that Ashura did? I'm not trying to claim that Ashura awakened a Kurama Avatar, but perhaps, something completely similar?
We know that as Ashura/Indra's Chakra keeps transmigrating over future generations that their chakra weakens even further:
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So it's possible that since Naruto would awaken a similar mode like his Transmigrant the way Sasuke did, that Naruto needed Kurama's chakra in order for him to obtain Ashura's mode because his chakra was weaker overall. We can see this with Sasuke and Indra, where Indra only needed a Mangekyo Sharingan in order to obtain Perfect Susano'o whereas Sasuke needed an Eternal Mangekyo Sharingan in order to obtain Perfect Susano'o like Indra because his chakra was much weaker than Indra's own due to how Transmigration works, so Sasuke had to go through a process in order to obtain the same power. Like Naruto, he awakened a mode similar to Ashura's, but needed Kurama's full cooperation in order for him to manifest that mode because his chakra was much weaker and so had to train and obtain Kurama's full power in order to wield that power.
So essentially, if Ashura's Mode is a byproduct of only his chakra, it could not have been Rikudou Senjutsu, but possibly a mode similar to Naruto's Kurama Avatar seeing as how Naruto/Sasuke parallels Ashura/Indra.
-if I say it was from Bijuu cooperation with Ashura, Bijuu especially Kurama will tell the story about him and his friend cooperated with Ashura in manga. But it not happen.
-If I say Ashura became Kurama jinchhuriki. The refute is same as above.
-If it born from Ashura own power/chakra. But why he made his Avatar form looks like Kurama? Not making any sense at all when refer back to above reasons. Like Kishi want to tells us that Bijuu had something to do with Ashura Avatar.
He never elaborate it clearly.
No possible answer for your question/curiosity OP. Inconsistency was 100% showing/revealing itself there
And what Indra and Ashura both had were basically watered down versions War Naruto & Sasuke's powers. Indra - had rikudou chakra & the watered down eye power of the Rinnegan (Sharingan), Asura had Rikudou chakra & the watered down body of power Six Paths Sage Mode (Whatever his is called)
I don't necessarily agree with that, but it makes a lot more sense than stating how Indra had an entirely different ocular power yet Ashura had the same Senjutsu as his father.
I don't necessarily agree with that, but it makes a lot more sense than stating how Indra had an entirely different ocular power yet Ashura had the same Senjutsu as his father.
Given the scarce information we have it's I feel it's the best assumption. Still an assumption mind you but him inheriting the same RSM as his father, while his brother didn't receive the Rinnegan led me to the conclusion that what he got is much weaker. Especially since we don't see him with a fancy cloak or a gudodama staff.
And Obito was entirely correct. He knew that Indra never really obtained the Sage's Eyes, but only his "powerful chakras" because he deliberately stated that Nagato was the Third of the Six Paths. Everything Obito stated was correct and he knew Ashura and Indra transmigrated into Naruto and Sasuke. Everything he said was entirely correct.
He was wrong about Indra having the Sage's eyes, that was nonsense written by BZ to make Uchiha believe they were the only ones capable of awakening Hagoromo's power. It was most likely a way of saying Indra's eye power was capable of matching the Rinnegan
He never did. The reason he had Hagoromo's potent chakra was because he inherited Hagoromo's Potential, but Hagoromo's Chakra is a combination of Ashura + Indra's Chakra.
Both him and Ashura inherited Hagoromo's potential and Hagoromo specifically talks about genes
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Ashura never inherited the genes for potent chakra and the same occurred with their descendants. Uchiha have the naturally strong chakra while Senju/Uzumaki have the strong body and ability to produce Senjutsu. Hashirama and Naruto required NE to match Sasuke and Madara's chakra, the same would have applied to Ashura.
If Indra had the Sage's Chakra, he would've awakened the Rinnegan.
Well it's simple, Indra had Sage chakra but it lacked the level of Yang for him to be born with a Rinnegan, and likewise Ashura never inherited the genes for dojutsu or the level of spiritual energy for him to be born with the Sage's eyes. They both had a portion of Hagoromo's chakra, just not the full extent of it.
It's extremely intellectually dishonest of you to suggest that Ashura could produce the Sage's Senjutsu yet Indra couldn't produce a Six Paths Power for some odd reason.
The reason Indra couldn't produce Six Path Senjutsu was because he didn't inherit some of the Juubi's chakra like Ashura did, the Juubi chakra Ashura had is what allowed him to use BM without being a jinchuuriki and is what's responsible for being able to use the same chakra as a JuubiJin.
You said everything Obito mentioned was correct, well he said that being a Juubi Jinchuuriki gave him the Sage's body and he also said Ashura had the Sage's body, then logically Ashura was able to produce the same Senjutsu as a JuubiJin.
Ashura was able to produce Six Path Senjutsu while Indra's genes gave him the same chakra potency as Six Path Senjutsu, hence why Uchiha never required NE to match the power of Sage Mode
Furthermore, I don't see why you think it's a disadvantage, Ashura had some of the Juubi's chakra but Indra's Sharingan is a power that comes from the Juubi as well so they were on fair grounds.
No, that's not my point. My point was that Indra would awaken the Rinnegan if it were the equivalent of Ashura's Chakra and Sasuke did need the Rinnegan to become Naruto's equal
Here's the thing, Naruto required the bijuu's power to match Ashura's feats which would mean Sasuke also required bijuus to match Indra's feats.
In fact he named his lightning tech after Indra which strongly hints at Indra's avatar being as strong as bijuu Susanoo. If that's the case then he wouldn't need a Rinnegan to increase his power just like Ashura wouldn't need bijuus to use RSM.
And before you say it doesn't make sense, it actually does because Indra and Ashura are direct blood relatives of the Sage unlike Naruto and Sasuke therefore their power levels would naturally be closer to the Juubi.
And Hagormo being a JuubiJin when he conceived his children would have played a part because tailed beasts influence the children of their hosts. The Sage's chakra was fused with the Juubi's which means the power his children inherited would have been influenced by the Juubi to a certain extent.
that's undeniable yet you're suggesting that Indra had neither of those, but just a Perfect Susano'o and could stalemate Ashura's Six Path Senjutsu even though they parallel Naruto/Sasuke? Makes no sense.
I'm not saying he just has a PS, this is Indra we're talking about. He was a genius most likely like Itachi, he would have had Sasuke's talent with elements and as the progenitor of Uchiha he probably had more than two MS abilities.
And even if he only had two MS feats, he would have been strong enough to match RSM when you combine them with PS and elements. And having said that, Ashura's RSM was most likely weaker than Hagoromo's.
No it can't. That's entirely illogical. Rinnegan is considered a superior Dojutsu by having the combined powers of Yin + Yang whereas the Sharingan only contains Yin.
Hence why I said it depends on the user, and Kishi changed the whole Yin/Yang rule in the Kaguya arc. DMS Obito had Sage chakra yet didn't have a Rinnegan, and his Sharingan was more effective than Sasuke's Rinnegan against Kaguya.
You don't need planet busting jutsu to be strong, Rinnegan has more variety but MS has jutsu like Enton and Kamui which are virtually unstoppable when used by the right person. They're separate halves on Kaguya's eye so there shouldn't be much difference.
And as I said before, for all we know Indra had more than two MS abilities and if he did then his eyes could easily be on par with Hagoromo's dojutsu.
It's clear the Sharingan is the inferior eye as Black Zetsu disses Obito for trying to control something that only Hagoromo and Madara could obtain and the fact that the Sage's Rinnegan is a representation of a God which is praise that is not given to Sharingan users.
Because techniques like Susanoo, Enton, Kamui, Tsukuyomi, KA are all useless right ? And Mangekyo is known as the "heavenly eye" coincidentally "heaven" has always been used as a reference to god.
In addition, the Rinnegan is a "representation of god" due to the fact it was used by someone that possessed Six Path Senjutsu, Yin/Yang seals along with the Juubi's power.
I'm pretty sure the Sharingan would be seen in the same light if a JuubiJin of Hagoromo's level used MS, and I'll keep saying this, maybe Indra had more than 2 MS feats because he's the original owner of Mangekyo and all Uchiha DNA comes from him.
And Sasuke had Rikudou's Chakra and the Rinnegan fueling his own Susano'o whereas Indra had no such thing. That's incomparable.
Yes Sasuke with the Rinnegan is slightly superior but what I'm talking about is Sharingan specifically and nothing else. In terms of Sharingan feats, Indra's would still be as strong if not slightly stronger because he had Rikudou chakra, he never required the 9 bijuu to match Ashura and he didn't need a Rinnegan for Hagoromo to consider his eyes being powerful.
Indra was born with his father's chakras but he never awaken the rinnegan. Ashura's body "blossoming" is him learning to use natural energy resulting in rikudou sagemode.
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Hagormoo's powers were split up into two sections between his sons
1. Chakra
2. Senjutsu
There are other things that were split up too but this is primary.
-if I say it was from Bijuu cooperation with Ashura, Bijuu especially Kurama will tell the story about him and his friend cooperated with Ashura in manga. But it not happen.
-If I say Ashura became Kurama jinchhuriki. The refute is same as above.
-If it born from Ashura own power/chakra. But why he made his Avatar form looks like Kurama? Not making any sense at all when refer back to above reasons. Like Kishi want to tells us that Bijuu had something to do with Ashura Avatar.
He never elaborate it clearly.
No possible answer for your question/curiosity OP. Inconsistency was 100% showing/revealing itself there
Kurama became Naruto's friend during the war and they had no time for speaking about the story of their childhood.
I don't know when would Kurama say that to Naruto.
He was wrong about Indra having the Sage's eyes, that was nonsense written by BZ to make Uchiha believe they were the only ones capable of awakening Hagoromo's power. It was most likely a way of saying Indra's eye power was capable of matching the Rinnegan
I already refuted this when Obito directly stated that Nagato was the Third of the Six Paths. Clearly, he knew that Indra never had the Rinnegan in the first place.
Both him and Ashura inherited Hagoromo's potential and Hagoromo specifically talks about genes
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Ashura never inherited the genes for potent chakra and the same occurred with their descendants. Uchiha have the naturally strong chakra while Senju/Uzumaki have the strong body and ability to produce Senjutsu. Hashirama and Naruto required NE to match Sasuke and Madara's chakra, the same would have applied to Ashura.
Misinterpretation of the statement. Indra had his chakra genes because he had Hagoromo's potential and had naturally powerful chakras from the very beginning. It had nothing to do with having his exact chakra or genes at all.
Well it's simple, Indra had Sage chakra but it lacked the level of Yang for him to be born with a Rinnegan, and likewise Ashura never inherited the genes for dojutsu or the level of spiritual energy for him to be born with the Sage's eyes. They both had a portion of Hagoromo's chakra, just not the full extent of it.
He lacked the level of Yang Energy because that was something Ashura only inherited, so since he lacks the Yang component, he does not have the Sage's Chakra. This is as clear as day when Madara awakened the Rinnegan with very little of Hashirama's DNA which refutes your point.
The reason Indra couldn't produce Six Path Senjutsu was because he didn't inherit some of the Juubi's chakra like Ashura did, the Juubi chakra Ashura had is what allowed him to use BM without being a jinchuuriki and is what's responsible for being able to use the same chakra as a JuubiJin.
Which had nothing to do with my point at all. The point is why he couldn't awaken the Rinnegan when Ashura could awaken a Six Paths Power in the form of Rikudou Senjutsu. Their chakras are equivalent with Indra awakening a Dojutsu through Hagoromo and Ashura obtaining a Powerful Lifeforce through Hagoromo, so Indra should logically have awakened the Rinnegan if Ashura had Rikudou Senjutsu. Quite frankly, a lot of this is fanfiction anyways and not stated at all.
You said everything Obito mentioned was correct, well he said that being a Juubi Jinchuuriki gave him the Sage's body and he also said Ashura had the Sage's body, then logically Ashura was able to produce the same Senjutsu as a JuubiJin.
Ashura was able to produce Six Path Senjutsu while Indra's genes gave him the same chakra potency as Six Path Senjutsu, hence why Uchiha never required NE to match the power of Sage Mode
Furthermore, I don't see why you think it's a disadvantage, Ashura had some of the Juubi's chakra but Indra's Sharingan is a power that comes from the Juubi as well so they were on fair grounds.
Obito never stated that, he stated that the Juubi is equal to the Power of the Sage of the Six Paths. That's you twisting the meaning of Obito's statement. The 2nd paragraph doesn't even begin to make sense because Ashura's Chakra was stated to rival Indra's Chakra and yet awakened an ability in the form of Rikudou Senjutsu in the form of a Six Paths Power. Indra had the Potentcy that Ashura's had, but no Six Paths ability? It doesn't make sense regardless of how you twist what is shown in the manga.
And no, Indra's Sharingan is a mere fraction of the Juubi's Dojutsu whereas Rikudou Senjutsu is the manifestation of the Juubi's Power. Two completely different things and it's being intellectually dishonest because you're actually suggesting that the RinneSharingan is the equivalent of the Sharingan as both are derived from the Juubi. Obviously, that sort of logic just doesn't work here.
Here's the thing, Naruto required the bijuu's power to match Ashura's feats which would mean Sasuke also required bijuus to match Indra's feats.
No it wouldn't because Sasuke already had to fulfill a requirement to obtain Indra's Power in the form of the Eternal Mangekyo. This was already addressed in the OP.
In fact he named his lightning tech after Indra which strongly hints at Indra's avatar being as strong as bijuu Susanoo. If that's the case then he wouldn't need a Rinnegan to increase his power just like Ashura wouldn't need bijuus to use RSM.
And before you say it doesn't make sense, it actually does because Indra and Ashura are direct blood relatives of the Sage unlike Naruto and Sasuke therefore their power levels would naturally be closer to the Juubi.
No, their power levels would naturally be closer to the Juubi's because Indra and Ashura's chakra possesses the most potent chakra among their Transmigrants and I already addressed this. Through Transmigration, Indra and Ashura's chakra grows weaker which is why Naruto and Sasuke were much weaker than their respective ancestors as a result.
And Hagormo being a JuubiJin when he conceived his children would have played a part because tailed beasts influence the children of their hosts. The Sage's chakra was fused with the Juubi's which means the power his children inherited would have been influenced by the Juubi to a certain extent.
I'm not saying he just has a PS, this is Indra we're talking about. He was a genius most likely like Itachi, he would have had Sasuke's talent with elements and as the progenitor of Uchiha he probably had more than two MS abilities.
And even if he only had two MS feats, he would have been strong enough to match RSM when you combine them with PS and elements. And having said that, Ashura's RSM was most likely weaker than Hagoromo's.
Which goes against the idea of Indra and Ashura's Chakra rivaling one another if Indra relies on his ingenuity to beat Ashura which is nowhere implied in the manga. That's you making up theories which is nice, but I'd rather go with what the manga had shown us instead of making baseless assumptions.
Hence why I said it depends on the user, and Kishi changed the whole Yin/Yang rule in the Kaguya arc. DMS Obito had Sage chakra yet didn't have a Rinnegan, and his Sharingan was more effective than Sasuke's Rinnegan against Kaguya.
You don't need planet busting jutsu to be strong, Rinnegan has more variety but MS has jutsu like Enton and Kamui which are virtually unstoppable when used by the right person. They're separate halves on Kaguya's eye so there shouldn't be much difference.
That's an unfair comparison because Sasuke wasn't adept with his usage of the Rinnegan and the fact that Obito couldn't accomplish the feats that he could with just his own Sharingan, but also with Hashirama's DNA (Yang), Rikudou's Chakra (Yin + Yang), and Sakura's Byakugou Chakra. Essentially, he still needed Hagoromo's Yang to accomplish the feats that you're suggesting his Sharingan could accomplish here.
I agree you don't have to be planet busting to be strong, but the Rinnegan has always been depicted as stronger than the Sharingan based on Jiraiya's reaction to seeing Nagato's Rinnegan as opposed to him witnessing Itachi's own Sharingan. It's clear that the Rinnegan is a stronger Dojutsu and hence why Madara sought for obtaining extra power just to obtain the Rinnegan. Even Databook refers to it as the "most exalted" among the Three Great Dojutsus implying that the Rinnegan is the strongest of them all.
And as I said before, for all we know Indra had more than two MS abilities and if he did then his eyes could easily be on par with Hagoromo's dojutsu.
Because techniques like Susanoo, Enton, Kamui, Tsukuyomi, KA are all useless right ? And Mangekyo is known as the "heavenly eye" coincidentally "heaven" has always been used as a reference to god.
In addition, the Rinnegan is a "representation of god" due to the fact it was used by someone that possessed Six Path Senjutsu, Yin/Yang seals along with the Juubi's power.
I'm pretty sure the Sharingan would be seen in the same light if a JuubiJin of Hagoromo's level used MS, and I'll keep saying this, maybe Indra had more than 2 MS feats because he's the original owner of Mangekyo and all Uchiha DNA comes from him.
Sasuke's Cursed Seal is also known as the Cursed Seal of Heaven yet obviously, it's not the Power of the God and quite frankly, that is not the praise given to Sharingan Users, but only to Rinnegan Users and Databook makes that distinction very clear, even mentioning that only a User of the Rinnegan is stated to be sent down from the Heavens. If anything, the Rinnegan is constantly referenced as a Godly Power and I see no implication that the Sharingan is a representation of a God's Power at all.
And no, Rinnegan on its lonesome is known as the power of a God and that's made clear in the DB3 Entry:
The supreme eyes that appear during troubled times
Will they bring about creation or destruction~~
The doujutsu held by the founder of the shinobi, the "Sage of the Six Realms"** It's most distinctive feature being the ripple pattern spreading out over the eyeballs, the "Rinnegan" are called the "most exalted eyes" among the "Three Great Doujutsu," the other two being the "Sharingan" and "Byakugan". Admired as being able to bring forth all ninjutsu, the holder of these eyes can completely master the five elemental nature transformations that form the basis of ninjutsu. It is said that in times when the world is in disorder, this person is sent down from the heavens to become either a "God of Creation" who will calm the world, or a "Destroyer" who reduce everything to nothing.
Yes Sasuke with the Rinnegan is slightly superior but what I'm talking about is Sharingan specifically and nothing else. In terms of Sharingan feats, Indra's would still be as strong if not slightly stronger because he had Rikudou chakra, he never required the 9 bijuu to match Ashura and he didn't need a Rinnegan for Hagoromo to consider his eyes being powerful.
Except when both chakras are of the same level (which in Ashura and Indra's case, they were), then both the Rinnegan and RSM are equivalent in terms of power which is why Hagoromo gave Naruto RSM and Sasuke the Rinnegan with the intention of splitting his power among them equally. PS on its lonesome would never amount to the power of RSM and if Sasuke did need all 9 Bijuu, that's only because Naruto had Bijuu Mode in addition to Rikudou Senjutsu.
Indra was born with his father's chakras but he never awaken the rinnegan. Ashura's body "blossoming" is him learning to use natural energy resulting in rikudou sagemode.
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Hagormoo's powers were split up into two sections between his sons
1. Chakra
2. Senjutsu
There are other things that were split up too but this is primary.
