Apêx (Kisame) vs Konohas Copy Ninja (Minato)

[KCN]

You wanna Db8 me fam?

Not on this thread, but sure I'll debate you. Though don't you have like 3 debates lined up already lol?

 

[DrProof]

Not on this thread, but sure I'll debate you. Though don't you have like 3 debates lined up already lol?

Icelerate isn't going to respond prob. I dropped out the other one, because I don't like depending on people, and that's about it.

I'll shoot you a VM fam, about our characters.

 

[KCN]

Icelerate isn't going to respond prob. I dropped out the other one, because I don't like depending on people, and that's about it.

I'll shoot you a VM fam, about our characters.

Alright lets do it.

 

[Apêx1]

Well, it seems Apex has gone running. I declare myself the winner.

I still gotchu, just give me like 2 days to finish it up. I went on vacation and my internet ended up being far slower then I had anticipated.

 

[KCN]

I still gotchu, just give me like 2 days to finish it up. I went on vacation and my internet ended up being far slower then I had anticipated.

Alright. Lets just finish off so the judges can get it done. We've been on this round for ages.

 

[Apêx1]

Alright. Lets just finish off so the judges can get it done. We've been on this round for ages.

Yep, but to be fair the tourney was dead already while we were just getting started.

 

[Apêx1]

Alright. Lets just finish off so the judges can get it done. We've been on this round for ages.

Yep, but to be fair the tourney was dead already while we were just getting started.

 

[Chīkara]

Damn, is there a tourney going on ?

 

[Apêx1]

Damn, is there a tourney going on ?

Yep, but it's somewhat dead at this point.

 

[Beans2]

It ain't dead, I've just tossed the syllabus out the window. All the debates except this one are complete, we're just awaiting judgments. Once the winners are decided we'll advance to the third round.

 

[Chīkara]

Yep, but it's somewhat dead at this point.

Damn, where can I find the match-ups ?

​

​

 

[Apêx1]

Damn, where can I find the match-ups ?

​

​

Check me or Beans/KG's pages and there is a group called DoU debate tourney. Has everything there.

 

[BenjerminGaye]

snip.

Damn, hit that ni&&a with the manga phax, the real world fax, databook facts, and interview phacts.

 

[KCN]

Damn, hit that ni&&a with the manga phax, the real world fax, databook facts, and interview phacts.

When it comes to Minato I don't play games.

 

[Savage Predator]

This niga apex said give him 2 days. It's past the third day and no post.

 

[KCN]

Well, Apex really has gone running. I guess the facts were too much.

 

[Unorthodox]

this debate never finished? How could he lose with Minato this is why Absolute zero disciples suck DoU would never lost a debate so onesided

 

[Apêx1]

Apologies for taking so long. I went on vacation and my internet was shit so I had to write this all on a word doc lmfao. #getready #AZdiscipleabouttagiveittoya #LordPissameisgr8

The bolded will only work one time. As we lack knowledge, GSB will no doubt absorb the oil and continue projecting towards us; though as I've previously shown, it's evaded effortlessly [

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] by the toads and Minato is self explanatory. After this, Minato will realise the mechanics of the technique, and from here he casually intercepts it with S/T barrier each and every time for us to utilise our strategies.

There's absolutely no reason for it to only work once, unless you are suggesting Kisame's reserves aren't enough to use a Suiton that wouldn't even come close to affecting his chakra reserves. Only one toad will ever be present, as I have argued before and will argue again later on in my post. So Daikodan is not being evaded here, especially since Daikodan should be manoeuvrable like his smaller Shark bullet can (more powerful technique should maintain its weaker variants feats), which is simply an inferior version of this technique that doesn't absorb chakra. So once its absorbed the Goemon it will easily be a size that will overwhelm any Boss Toad and have the capacity to follow him if he decides to make any movement in time (assuming he can).

So nah, Great Shark Bullet is not being straight up dodged, not a chance given its huge size [

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]. Kisame is practically a dot in that Daikodan and that Daikodan is moving at the same speed as Gai's Hirudora, which was enough to send Madara's V3 Susano flying back and even destroyed it. Inb4 that's no proof of being fast, when Hirudora practically has no mass since the Databook and

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suggests it is purely air pressure. Thus ALL of its momentum comes from its speed, not its mass, and it had enough momentum to send v3 flying back when Baku could barely make it lean a foot backwards. And that is all attributable to its speed as its speed is the main aspect of its crazy momentum which sent the Susano flying back (nothing to do with the explosion). So nope, I don't see the Boss Toad surviving this, since he can't jump in time in the first place. And it'll be much bigger after absorbing Goemon=even harder to dodge with more size.

As for Daikodan absorbing it at close range, your proposition is essentially null as the sharks are summoned in a vertical formation where they disperse later on, with Kisame standing on top of them [

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] creating an appropriate distance for Minato to intercept it with S/T Barrier. Handseals not fast enough you say? Minato was able to form the hand seals to the space time barrier in one panel [

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] intercepting a TBB, which could cross Konoha in literally a second. GSB is miles behind in speed.

Your final point of GSB outgrowing the barrier is a bit ridiculous. The barrier intakes in direct correlation to the jutsu's size. Unless you're telling me Kurama's bijuu dama is the same size as the Juubi's.

I don't know what sharks have to do with any of the points I mentioned in that quote. I am talking about one shark, singular, and that's his Great Shark Bullet. I didn't even mention a summoning in that quote, so I don't know what you are on about. Furthermore, look back at the link you gave me for Minato's hand seal speed. He was forming the hand seals before we were given any indication that TBB was even fired. We don't see Minato stop his hand seals, we only see him making them. You are merely speculating he had finished them all in that panel. Not to mention, one panel is not an indicator at all, as panels have absolutely no timely quantification at all. So him finishing them in one panel or not does not add anything to your argument, as he started hand seals before TBB was fired, and for all I know, did it throughout the period in which the TBB was travelling. Such is an impossibility against Kisame, whose GSB he knows nothing of, and a GSB which will happen as a counter attack, meaning it's much harder to react to it.
@bold What? He'd have to put the amount of chakra required to make his S/T barrier larger, but there's no way he can do that in time when the Daikodan is growing continuously after eating Goemon. Inb4 he makes the S/T barrier after Daikodan is at point blank range of him and his toads. You seriously need to stop misunderstanding my points, twisting them won’t help your argument either.

What is this? This entire post is you stating the obvious. When did I ever say Minato's chakra > Kisame's? Gamabunta is not going to be alone. He will have the other two boss summons with him, but as you attempted to counter that below I'll address that then. Your mistake is thinking Minato's some chakra lacky. May I remind you he was a perfect sage? [

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] (confirmed by Fukasaku's dialogue with Naruto [

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]-[

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]). Minato simply took too long to enter it. Anyways, to enter SM your reserves must be huge, and Minato seemed to have done it so chew on that. You're talking as if he summons Bunta and then gets gassed. Despite his feats during Obito's invasion, whereby he summoned Bunta, teleported 2 Bijuu dama and teleported 100% Kurama among all the other jutsu and seals he performed (preceded by him using chakra to maintain Kushina's seal during labour, however long that may of been).

With your complete underestimation of Minato's reserves now corrected, Bunta and the other two toads are more than enough to allow Minato to escape (despite Minato not needing to summon all 3). Their size and mass and excellent swimming prowess will prove too explosive for the sharks to handle, or at least stall Minato which isn't happening when 1 head towards an exit and the other 2 stall Kisame and the sharks. You must take into account the sharks sizes in comparison with the toads and their weapons. A horizontal swipe from Gamaken and Gamahiro (who wields duel swords) would eliminate a massive portion of the sharks, and Gamabunta can be gone with Minato in his grasp no problems. Another thing you're failing to acknowledge is that Kisame in a merged state in waterdome isn't battle efficient, rather he is suited for capturing [

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]
meaning the toads aren't some helpless scrubs at his mercy. Finally, the toads can expel a large amount of oil to confuse the sharks navigation. Of course oil and water don't mix and the oil will soon travel to surface, but the initial release of the oil in conjunction with the amount of oil we have at our disposal should make this a quick job.

I was giving you perspective on the difference in chakra quantity between Kisame and Minato. Ergo I am suggesting a fight of attrition is another viable method for Kisame to win, as there's no way for Minato to win a prolonged battle. And lol at telling me I state the obvious and then saying Minato having SM=large reserves. Good one bro. Yes, I never suggested he has low chakra reserves. What I suggested was using 2 summons will in fact have a massive effect on his chakra levels whether you like it or not. He's never done anything comparable to that canonically, and he's remarked to be extremely low on chakra after several FTG's, 1 summon, 1 rasengan, teleporting Kurama with his TBB and 1 FTG barrier on TBB [

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]. Yet you suggest he summons Bunta and Gamaken, uses several FTG's and uses an FTG barrier on GSB and is 'not gassed' by that, despite summons probably being the most chakra taxing part of his abilities during his tiring in the Konoha invasion. So pls, his chakra not being 'lacky' doesn't mean he'll be able to spam jutsu with no remorse. So me 'stating the obvious' in my previous post clearly served a good purpose, as your current strategy is to turn this into a fight of attrition which Kisame will easily spank Minato in.

No chance in hell anyone is escaping smh. Water Dome is designed to keep people trapped inside with Kisame. And lol at that terrible strategy. Kisame only cares for Minato, the toads are merely tools for Minato's aid. Kisame will follow wherever Minato goes, and will sense anywhere he tries to hide if they try to cover his body (they won't know this). He swims far faster then Minato can.. far faster. He summons many of his sharks to attack the toad that is running the other direction, while Kisame goes for Minato. Mind you, Minato will be drowning while the Water Dome follows everywhere Kisame follows Minato. Kisame sends many of his sharks to attack Minato, and goes from beneath x toads with Minato to absorb all of Minato's chakra/kill him. There's literally nothing for the toads to do in order to help Minato here; nothing at all. And your oil argument is pretty useless here as I said Kisame will release real sharks AND

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. The suiton sharks are completely unaffected by the oil. Not to mention, regardless of any distraction, Kisame can still sense their presence in the water dome and his navigation will be unaffected. So he can simply follow them around and they are back to square one, while the sharks start following Minato and his toads again. It's a complete and utter stomp within the water dome and by this point, Minato would be long drowned. Don’t see where you were going in this, but the jutsu name itself having “prison” is enough to imply that nobody is escaping it, especially when Minato and ALL the Boss toads lack speed feats, let alone speed even slightly comparable to Kisame in his fused state.

You're not really saying anything here, despite the impressive paragraph. Anyways, Kishimoto reaffirms his interview with the 3rd databook page;

Spoiler

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"The toads one is able to summon will depend on his/her abilities"

- Minato learned and perfected sage mode proven by his lack of this [

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] which means he was in direct training with the toad sages. Yet he cannot summon them? The second box refers to skill. Minato is one of the most skilled ninja in history; like I've said, Jiraiya didn't summon them first because they had to gather all the nature energy and whatnot allowing him to enter it instantly, which is what Jiraiya was trying to achieve. And no, they don't have to be stuck to your shoulders, we've seen that with Naruto [

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]. And the toad sages attaching themselves to the summoner is an entirely different technique in itself;

Spoiler

Sage Art Amphibian Technique:

Spoiler

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p. 321
仙法・両生の術 Senpou: Ryousei no Jutsu - Sage Art: Amphibian Technique
Ninjutsu; Senjutsu

仙蝦蟇と体の一部を融合し、戦闘態勢を保つ術。自然エネルギーを集める”静”と戦闘を行う”動”に役割分担し、仙人モードを最大限活用する。

Fusion of a Sage Toad and a part of the (user’s) body; a jutsu that maintains combat-readiness. Dividing the roles of gathering Natural Energy “Stillness” and performing in combat “Motion”, using Sage Mode to its maximum practical use.

First Appearance: Volume 46, [Chapter 375] p. 47
[Anime Appearance: Naruto Shippuden Episode 131]

[The two roles are split/coordinated between the user and the Sage Toad - Fukasaku gathers Natural Energy while Naruto engages in combat.]

As you can see, Fukasaku has to remain still and gather nature energy in order to put them into sage mode, yet when Jiraiya summoned them he went into sage mode instantly, meaning that's exactly what the ritual is for confirmed by the databook in my opening post. Minato being bad at sage mode has nothing to do with the point; he had contact and trained with them.

How am I not saying anything? I showed you how believing Jiraiya would go through the summoning process for nothing undermines his intelligence. It's a strong point for my argument as you can't deny his intelligence, but if you don't then you also don't deny ritual being a necessity. So I’m saying A LOT with this, and showing you why your particular logic is fallacious. Jiraiya is the most skilled with the toads despite lacking SM. He uses the toads the best, and ALWAYS resorts to them. So by experience and fighting style he should be able to summon them instantly as well, yet chose to waste a full chapter+ so that they could start on his shoulders. Makes no sense at all. The only way to summon him is through a ritual. The only way, as shown by Jiraiya.

Furthermore, you are continuously neglecting the fact that entering SM, let alone summoning Shima and Fukasaku, is out of character for Minato. In the War, Minato said himself that being not so good at SM is an understatement, and he takes long/he can’t maintain it. That’s by his own words, so his words>anything as that is what Kishi wants us to think. It’s a manga fact after he said it. YET, despite not being able to maintain it, Minato didn’t summon Shima and Fukasaku. Inbox Edo’s can’t summon due to the blood contract disappearing, Hanzo CLEARLY summoned Ibuse [

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] as an Edo Tensei. So blood contracts are unaffected by becoming an Edo. So now not only will you have to believe Jiraiya was a retard for using the ritual, you will ALSO have to accuse Minato of being a retard for not summoning Shima and Fukasaku to aid him in the war and maintain his SM before he lost his arms. So it’s practically a fact now that Minato does in fact need the ritual to summon them based on canonical evidence. And lol @being still. Naruto also has to be still for a split-second to go into SM and Fuksaku/Shima>>Naruto in SM logically speaking, so they did it before we could see with Jiraiya since they were in pitch black darkness for a moment. That’s all there is to it, Minato didn't use Shima and Fukasaku in the War despite having AGRES, so IC will NEVER opt to do it, and can't do it because he said he can't maintain SM yet didn't think about the Elder Toads. THE END BRAH.

This is just ridiculous. First of all, manga knowledge is manga knowledge. Kisame has shown no intel in the manga, so whatever hype cards you try and pull out for Minato is mere conjecture at best.

Lol what? Debates are about being able to persuade the judges of your points, they are not VS section replicas were you make a factual strategy which is PURE feats. Debates are about persuading a judge with implications and good arguments; giving many options for counters and then making a main strategy which can work with any of your counters that have been listed. It is Manga intel so he has intel based on what he would if this was a canonical scenario. In a replica of a canonical scenario, where everything is IC as it should be, Kisame would most definitely know who “The Yellow Flash” is, the fact that he is extremely fast given he was alive and older then Minato during the war in which EVERYONE feared Minato’s speed, and was said to be a flee-on-sight opponent. He’s on the wall of Konoha, and Kisame will surely recognise him instantly, “Golden Hair”, even wearing the Yondaime cloak, and on the statue of the Homage’s that he’s canonical been near while in Konoha. He knew who Karachi was on sight too, and Kakashi is nowhere near as famous as Minato. So I see more then enough reason for Kisame to know of Minato, when random fodders in the war knew Minato, and those people were never even in Konoha, and didn’t have the vast knowledge and intel Kisame would have being an Akatsuki and having been in Konoha/in the War, etc.

@Bold - Or he does this [

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] and follows up with this [

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]. The clones will never in a million years be able to track Minato's movements, so they die on impact with Minato immediately teleporting in and out of range (like with Ay) before the water prison even forms. Team Gai were caught because their movements weren't quick enough. Minato is light years ahead of all of them in speed, so them reacting to Minato isn't really debatable. Since Minato of all people isn't getting caught in the prison, the remainder of your post isn't really necessary.

Kisame can make as many clones as he wants man. Minato does this [

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], teleports anywhere within the Hiraishin perimeter and blitzes them all before they know what him them. Water clones are still only 1/10th of the originals power, despite Kisame's reserves, they're going to be a lot weaker and less efficient. Especially considering the real Kisame is already severely outmatched in terms of speed.

Lmfao. Stop giving KCM Minato’s Shunshin speed feats to base Minato. Assuming you are doing so, because that tactic seems weird if you think a marks/kunai is ever coming close to Kisame (you never exlained how since they are all under water lmfao).We both know KCM Naruto was faster then v2 Ay yet base Naruto is slower then base Ay (based on chakra quantity, chakra control, etc; so it’s implicative as he’s a Kage). So the KCM boost is larger then the boost Ay receives from his Raiton shroud. Don’t even use that scan as a quantification for Minato’s speed feats, because Base Minato has no Shunshin feats even comparable to v1 Bee, let alone v2 Bee. Kisame is not getting blitzed by shunshin here, ever. That’s a baseless claim since every time his good speed is referred to, it’s his Hirashin speed. And lol. They were caught because they had no way of knowing that was going to happen. Similarly, Minato will not know it’s happening, and since it’ll be a water location from the first second of the fight, there will be nowhere to teleport but beneath the large mass of shark infested water. Furthermore, he won’t be capable of teleporting back up because he’d need to be fast enough to throw a kunai that’s outside of the water prison range; when he doesn’t even know he needs to throw a kunai. Not to mention Lee and Neji both have greater striking speed then Minato. Let’s not go attributing amazing striking speed comparable to a Taijutsu god like Lee when he has no feats comparable to such. The link you gave ([9]) wasn’t working so I had not much to go off bar the slash on Obito’s face. That’s on you though, not on me. Not my fault the link isn’t working.

Once again, stop with these unwarranted claims. I have told you SEVERAL times the main strategy is using the Water Shockwave to change the location into water. If it’s not the Water Shockwave in effect, it’s the Water Prison. Either way throwing many kunai’s is a completely useless strategy as they ALL sink to the bottom of the Water mass. And lol. 30% Kisame’s 10% clones did just fine, and those would be less than a third of the power of his real self. All they are doing here is hiding the real Kisame and using water prison. More then effective given overtime he going to punch or stab one of them; he’ll be putting himself into a Water Prison that he can only leave if he wants to enter shark infested waters. Every time he enters the shark infested water he either gets bitten or has a limb torn off. He will be at a greater disadvantage every time he comes back up.

Adressed Ma and Pa above.

Me too.

Very flawed. Kisame wasn't budging an inch because he was absorbing Bee's chakra [

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] on impact, nullifying the brunt and driving force of Bee's attack. Not to mention, strength /=/ durability. Kisame standing toe to toe with Bee physically isn't testament to his durability, but rather it's his resilience and strength. He still got his chest blown open, but he was able to heal it immediately due to his chakra absorbing properties. By your logic, strength = durability, which is quite ironic as I saw you arguing on another thread Itachi decapitates Tsunade (more strength than Kisame can ever hope to reach) with a basic kunai. Your comparisons are flawed to an extreme. Juugo taking on Suigetsu's blade with his own sword is durability, but we've seen a basic human like Kakashi block a full on swing from Zabuza, a much stronger adversary [

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] with his hand... and to completely shut down this analysis, Bee's V2 lariat did the exact same thing to a normal human like Sasuke [

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]. Is Sasuke super durable? No, you're just misinterpreting the jutsu. Lariat isn't meant to do more damage than that; having your chest blown away is the brunt of the damage, and both of those on the receiving end reaffirm that.

He absorbed Bee’s chakra, yes. How does that change the fact that he was still moving at top speed in his base form, which is all the strength he can use in his base form. I never said he tanked a v1 headbutt lmao. And yes, it is a testament to both his durability and his strength. If Bee overpowered Ay’s v2 Lariat, it’s a testament to his durability AND strength because he was not only tanking the v2 Lariat which has the strength to decapitate, but he also took it without moving backwards, meaning it’s a strength AND durability feat. And lol, don’t see where you are going with your analogies. I gave you one here which is all you need. Stunned uses chakra on her fists which would enhance her durability dramatically as her fist is not the reason she is creating all that strength. Not to mention brute strength, Tsunade does not have even comparable feats to Kisame. Her 1 finger smash, and all her strength feats were chakra enhanced based on the Databook. Meanwhile Kisame made this with a single punch [

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] so anything Tsunade has strength wise is without Chakra enhancement is <<<<Kisame.

Anyways, to completely shut down this point I show you this [

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]. Kisame's skin was breached by Samehada's spikes proving he's got normal skin. It's in fact his resilience to damage and strength which are superhuman. Minato will be more than capable of cutting his head off.

Lol wat. Bee also got breached by Samehada’s spikes [

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] while he was in V1 which enhances his durability DRAMATICALLY. And he has durability to tank decapitating attacks like v2 Ay’s lariat in base, and Jugo’s crater creating punches. He also tanked a weaker version of Chidori that was intended to capture, so.. I find it completely retarded that you think Kisame’s durability is normal. Ay in v1 punctured a hole in a Senjutsu user like Jugo who should be more then durable. I already showed you scans of him tanking Suigetsu slashes with HIS ARM. V2 Ay decapitates people and is>>>>Ay in v1. Bee is >>>v2 Ay in strength. v1 Bee destroyed the battlefield with one smash and v2 Bee with his FULL RUN only busted Kisame’s torso. Note that v2 Jins have the hardness to tank Chidori and Kusanagi, so that is >>>v1 hardness, and the strength is 2x that of v1 since Samehada reverts v2 to v1 with full tails, while v1 reverts to base. So v2=2x v1. Kisame is OP shit durability wise. Your points are all moot here, spikes are next level shit.

No, I was saying it'd be the end if gets tagged in a CQC scenario without taking into account Kisame's fusion. Teleporting to a tagged/fused Kisame isn't something he has to do. Minato can use the FTG swapping technique with a clone and have Kisame run through by one of the toads massive tanto. Kisame fusing completely is only happening if he chooses to erect waterdome, which I've already proven is a technique for capture. However, even if he fuses on land like you're suggesting what's he supposed to do? His hands are webbed [

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] which restricts his jutsu capabilities massively. Also, your going to have to prove Kisame can erect bones from all parts of his body simultaneously; he isn't Kimimaro with the Kekkei genkai, so lets not assume he can walk around like this [

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]. Minato's far too quick for Kisame to be reacting to each and every blitz. If he goes fusion, then he also erects waterdome, which I've already countered now.

Lol, dafuq. Why are you twisting everything I say. I NEVER suggested he will walk around like Kimimaro with spikes all around his body I am suggesting he can erect bones from any part of his body at different times. If Minato is behind him, he erects bones to hit him from behind since he can sense his location. He’s done it through his head, through his front section, and alongside his spine. I don’t need him to erect those spikes from his **** cavity for me to have enough evidence for Kisame being capable of erecting from any part of his body. And lol, you have not countered Water Dome, and even if it’s intended for Capture, it does not limit Kisame from using it for drowning. That makes no sense. Chidori is intended to pierce, but against Bee Sasuke used it to electrocute. Justus can be used for varying purposes, they are not limited to their original purpose.

You kidding bruh?

Sharks have an excellent sense of hearing with ears located inside their heads on both sides rather than external ears like humans. Sharks can hear best at frequencies below 1,000 Hertz which is the range of most natural aquatic sounds.

[/quote[

Ok. Doesn’t matter since they will never be summoned bruh bruh, as I proved before.

You’re failing to realise the potential Goemon has when Bunta is the oil substitute instead of Jiraiya. Using a basic Katon (Jiraiya was also drugged so his knead release was piss poor at this time) his technique grew to stupendous sizes [

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]. Now imagine a Goemon; it'll encompass sizes comparable to Kisame's (bar the dome) technique without a doubt eliminating any and all sharks. Regardless if you're using it against the toads, as Goemon is still accessible despite Kisame's water source. And you must realise, if water evaporates at a measly 100 degrees, multiply that by thousands and the water will evaporate nigh instantly. It's just common sense. When does Kisame convect his watersources? He certainly didn't do it against team Gai. They were simply standing on a watery terrain. Goemon evaporates them all end of.

No, I don’t fail to realise its potential. What you fail to realise is that Daikodan will one shot with it due to the lack of intel on it, and Minato thinking Futon+Fire+Oil can’t be countered by Water logically speaking. Sure, it evaporates it, but Dakotan one shots and Elder toads are never here anyways lmao.

Says who? Fukasaku was said to have immense reserves; naturally this would apply to Shima as well [

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]

Immense=Not quantifiable by you. You can’t assume he can do all this without tiring out.

Will you stop making it seem like Minato summons one toad and then gasses? Anyways, I've shut down this point already.

Never did, stop twisting things around son. I have proven already multiple times that his chakra is not that amazing, so stop suggesting it is. He learned SM? Good for him. Doesn’t mean he can summon 2 toads and use all his jutsu without being tired out.

You’re under the illusion that Kisame will be able to keep up. I've already addressed the water clone tactic above; they're far too slow to keep up with Minato who will be able to blitz in and out of range in split seconds and cut them down similar to how Sasuke blitzed like 10 of Zabuza's water clones in part 1 (Tbh Minato's shunshin should suffice here). If he releases sharks from underneath, Minato switches to sensor mode [

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] and anticipates their arrival. Besides, if they come at him from above Goemon would eradicte them all, considering they'd be swimming right into it + he can deploy the toads to deal with any stragglers remaining. His kunai also won't be going anywhere, not if he fights Kisame using the same tactics as he did against Obito; even then Kisame's still getting outmanoeuvred.

That’s because his reaction speed is good enough to keep up with Minato’s shunshin. And again, I never said they will keep up, their sole purpose is water prison. And lol. We have seen 30% Kisame’s Suiton clones vs Team Gai. 100% Kisame’s are just fine, so stop attributing other people’s Suiton Bunshin’s to Kisame’s. And Minato won’t switch to sensor mode if he has no reason to, last time I checked he only did it when Kurama told him to, and otherwise used his finger sensing to see the amount of people present in the location. He doesn’t do it if he doesn’t have reason to. And you didn’t counter my shark point, awaiting their arrival beneath the water means?… He awaits his death? Because he sure as hell ain’t touching sharks beneath him. And wtf man. I don’t see how it would be possible to fight Kisame in the same way he fought Obito. Not when he has Samehada to literally spike him if he teleports near, and Samehada to smash the kunai’s 100 meters back.

What’s your strategy here? In one section you tell me Kisame counters with fused Samehada and a basic watersource and in the next he's in base using 5 feeding sharks with Samehada as precaution? You're all over the board bro.

Uhhh what? For one, I NEVER said he’s using a basic water source to counter, I clearly said Water Shockwave. Two, I clearly said he’s using 5 feeding sharks in this way; “he can create another precaution for Minato’s teleportation like this one.. (5 feeding sharks)” So it’s still part of the strategy. It prevents Minato from approaching Kisame in the first place, assuming he has no reason to fuse at a particular moment (I said he’d only do it within the Water Dome/wants to change things up because he figure out FTG’s trick). So you twisting things around is once again, not helping your points. IF Kisame is not fused, he uses his Suiton Bunshins and the Five Feeding Sharks to attack Minato. Minato has no way of closing the distance due to the sharks, and the thrown Kunai’s can easily be countered by other clones. Minato has no way of ever coming close to Minato, and will either end up drowning, being eaten by sharks, or losing due to it becoming a battle of attrition. So no, I am not all over the board, you just don’t seem to understand my points and the difference between strategy and optional precautions that Minato has no counter for.

That awkward moment when none of those reaction feats help him react to Minato, you know, the teleporting yellow flash hailed as the fastest ever at one point. Kisame couldn't even finish his sentence against 6th gate Gai (find it strange that he got blitzed by a guy who's jutsu he couldn't absorb,but had the upper hand against someone he could absorb? Minato is the former), yet I'm supposed to believe he's going to track Minato who can attack nigh instantaneously? [

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]. You are correct that Minato's striking speed is inferior to his teleportation speed, but if the opponent is marked he can attack basically instantly [

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]-[

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].

-Sharks aren't reacting to Minato, he'd not only pop up inbetween them reducing their effectiveness but they're too slow to track him anyways
Samehada definitely isn't tracking anything. Samehada can react to instant teleportation now? Good to know.

Reacting to his teleporting speed? I didn’t say that, but that won’t ever be the case. Reacting to his Shunshin speed? The nigh-featless one? Yea, he’s definitely reacting to that when he reacted to v1 Bee. Kisame couldn’t finish his sentence as 30%, 100% Kisame shits. Hell, 30% Kisame swung his sword before 6G Gai reached him, meaning he still reacted to him at a third of his power. Prove to me why Minato is faster then 6G Gai bruh. Too bad, his shunshin lacks the feats. You are talking markings now? The ones you never elaborated on, since I told you that Kisame is never getting tagged by one due to his 5 shakrs and Suiton clones which may mistakingly be marked. Not to mention Kunai’s got stopped by Clones and kunai’s. So once again, no points here. Lol wat. Samehada simply needs to move once Minato teleports, so it’s reacting to Minato after he’s teleported if anything. It’s already reacted to v2 Bee anyways. And AGAIN, this is all NEVER happening since no kunai will ever come close to Kisame, and your speed attribution to Minato is all baseless.

Not to mention Minato can call on a couple of clones who retain all his abilities, giving us a lot more angles to exploit with FTG. Minato's shadow clones aren't some fodder as well; them being able to teleport in and out of range providing more Kunai and a safe haven for Minato to retreat to is an option as well. Kisame's clones, at the end of the day, are only 1/10th and despite Kisame having large reserves, his real self is already outmatched in terms of speed and CQC, so his clones get obliterated with the utmost ease. Scale part 1 Sasuke dicing 10 of Zabuza's clones to the much, much, much faster Minato; then scale the Zabuza to the much stronger Kisame. That's what happens, they get negged.

Lol. Again, this will turn into a battle of attrition if Minato tries to use clones because Kisame can make MANY more. As long as the REAL Kisame is unaffected he’s winning the fight because Minato is perpetuating the fight of attrition. And once again, stop attributing Zabuza’s weak clones to Kisame’s rather useful clones (Water Prison wise) clones. Sharks are also beneath them the entire time, so the more Minato clones there are walking on the Water Shockwave, the higher the chances of them going poof. He simply needs to concentrate the top and bottom layer, so the clones/real Minato and the FTG Kunai’s are held under control. Kisame simply needs to make 50 Suiton Clones, and then continuously release more and more Suiton clones/Real Sharks. Eventually Minato’s clones will have nowhere to go because everywhere they step they are either killed by a shark or swung at by a physical monster like Kisame. There is really no debating Minato’s clones dying one by one from Sharks that only need to bite a leg to make him poof, and it will only be a matter of time then until the real Minato starts getting overwhelmed from beneath.

Do you know what manga intel is? If he's shown intel in the manga, then he has intel. Otherwise, he's got nothing as nothing is known or confirmed, by the manga. He's as clueless on Minato's abilities as Minato is Kisame's. Which is one of the many reasons why Kisame loses this. Kisame has a knack for CQC and that's a fact, he does it in each and every one of his fights save for his final encounter with Gai, and that's only because he got wrecked by gates the first time. Minato will tag him.

Countered that.

Yes I do. It’s intel that would correspond with the manga. It’s not purely what was shown, it’s what he would know if it was a manga scenario. That’s the whole point of a debate, and the reason it is In Character. Because we are trying to replicate a real canonical scenario within our debate. So no, based on the points I gave you in my first and second post, he should definitely know enough not to get blitzed.

 

[KCN]

RIP Magatsu Izanagi. Anyways it's about time this ended.

 

[New Dawn]

Lol once minatard gets close to Kisame, shark boy will grab his wack ass hair and tear that shit out so bad he won't be able to regrow his hair again. Kisame wins whether u clowns like it or not. The Absolute One has pass judgment.