Apêx (Kisame) vs Konohas Copy Ninja (Minato)
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TheAncientCenturion
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But you're shit tho.
Apêx1
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Pepper ur angus for these Pissame arguments are 10/10
Lord Tywin
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Two Kisame debates in the tourney
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Apêx1
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He pussied out because apparently "Minato 2 OP."
DrProof
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I hope that isn't true, as they both got to choose their debating characters lol. Kisame can formidably stomp Minatoad.
TheAncientCenturion
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Man, can't say I agree. Minato's fighting style comfortably trumps Kisame's.
DrProof
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I'd say some shit, but this isn't my debate
But I believe Kisame could whip blonde boys ass.
KCN
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Great Shark bullet counter(S);
Water dome counter;
Minato can crowd the dome with these three [
Of course, Minato summoning all 3 boss toads would more or less deplete his chakra. Good thing he doesn't have to, as he can summon Ma and pa who can perform their reverse summoning. Inb4 Minato hasn't shown it in canon.
Kishimoto states a contract with Gamabunta is a contract with all toads
InB4 Jiriaya had to perform a ritual. That doesn't apply to Minato; Jiraiya had to perform a ritual because he couldn't enter Sage mode by himself and that ritual ensures Ma and Pa are summoned in sync with his shoulders, instantly allowing him to achieve sage mode; this was also confirmed in the databook, where it explicitly states in the caption "to his own body
.
So basically, Minato can summon them just fine, allowing for a reverse summoning to commence.
CQC
The absolute dumbest thing Kisame can possibly do. Kisame can absorb chakra in two ways; by either swiping samehada past them/allowing Samehada to exploit it's little chakra absorbing perimeter or by Kisame coming into contact with the opponent themselves [
Another technique we could exploit is the often overlooked, but really haxxed frog call by Ma and Pa which completely immobilises the target [
Thousand feeding sharks
- This ain't a problem at all. Each and every single one of these fodder sharks get evaporated/dispersed via Goemon, potentially evaporating all of Kisame's geographical advantage too. Evaporating the sharks would simply be a replication of what Gai seemingly did in Canon using Asa Kujaku [
What's waters boiling point? 100 degrees celcius (212 F for the Muricans'); for the sake of NV defying physics lets assume it's a little higher because it's reinforced with chakra and whatnot.
What's Goemon's temperature? It reaches thousands of degrees. Databook fact.
Inb4 Minato has no oil. Nope, but Gamabunta can use it and in large quantities too [
Of course there's the question of it getting absorbed. Not really happening though, is it. Not only did Samehada find a basic fireball [
For extra assurance safety measures, Minato sends Gamaken and Gamahiro to keep Kisame busy along with a couple of shadow clones.
Water shockwave + counterattacking
This technique allows for Kisame to grant himself the geographical advantage and technically, it should get evaporated by the sheer temperature of Goemon but for the readers sake, lets take another approach. Now naturally, any spread Kunai prior to the activation of this jutsu will be sunk but this is of little worries, as Minato can momentarily teleport to them and retrieve them, teleporting back to the surface by tossing a Kunai in the air. This jutsu doesn't restrict Minato's mobility as he's still able to walk on water, unless he's forced underneath like Gai was but due to teleportation, that isn't happening.
This would mean Minato would have to fight Kisame using one Kunai (Kisame still has 3 boss toads + Ma and Pa to worry about) but this doesn't really matter, as Minato was able to outmanoeuvre and finish Obito using a single Kunai too. Now the tricky thing about Hiraishin is that it has a radius [
Using one Kunai we can also exploit Hiraishin ni no dan off the bat [
If he decides to come from underneath, boss toads handle his ass without fail. I'll leave it here for now.
- Not much to say here. Space time barrier absorbs and relocates the barrier without fail, as it doesn't contain any chakra but rather it is maintained by chakra. He's simply opening a portal, and the bullet falls right into it.
- It can also be blocked by the toads. A prerequisite for GSB's execution is the devourment of the opposing technique, as shown here [
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- Finally, it's simply dodged by Minato (self explanatory) or the toads as well [
You must be registered for see links]. The technique is extremely linear, and I'm under the impression the technique is impressive due to it's ability to completely negate any ninjutsu rather than anything else, which is mere conjecture at best considering we don't know what kind of damage it contains or it's AoE
Water dome counter;
Minato can crowd the dome with these three [
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] which changes the tides completely considering toads are excellent swimmers, and the overwhelming size they possess coupled with their advantage in numbers puts Kisame is quite the predicament. 3 boss toads stalling for Minato and potentially overwhelming Kisame underwater long enough for Minato to make his escape is almost definite, allowing for him to set up a clone in the outskirts of the technique's perimeter should he repeat it. Of course, Minato summoning all 3 boss toads would more or less deplete his chakra. Good thing he doesn't have to, as he can summon Ma and pa who can perform their reverse summoning. Inb4 Minato hasn't shown it in canon.
Kishimoto states a contract with Gamabunta is a contract with all toads
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InB4 Jiriaya had to perform a ritual. That doesn't apply to Minato; Jiraiya had to perform a ritual because he couldn't enter Sage mode by himself and that ritual ensures Ma and Pa are summoned in sync with his shoulders, instantly allowing him to achieve sage mode; this was also confirmed in the databook, where it explicitly states in the caption "to his own body
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So basically, Minato can summon them just fine, allowing for a reverse summoning to commence.
CQC
The absolute dumbest thing Kisame can possibly do. Kisame can absorb chakra in two ways; by either swiping samehada past them/allowing Samehada to exploit it's little chakra absorbing perimeter or by Kisame coming into contact with the opponent themselves [
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]-[
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]. This is avoided by spreading kunai in this manner [
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], allowing Minato to not only dodge Kisame's advance, but to also launch a counterattack [
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] of our own. Mind you, Kisame isn't getting anywhere near that close considering the sheer difference in speed; he won't be able to keep track of Minato at all. This eventually leads to Kisame getting tagged, which unfortunately spells the end for him. And no, he cannot absorb the seal as there is no chakra inside of it, it's simply a seal. Ultimately, he won't last long and he can potentially be decapitated considering not only is his Kunai heavier and larger than a normal one, but Zabuza decapitated Gato with a basic kunai using his mouth [
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] meaning realistically, Minato should have no problems doing so himself.Another technique we could exploit is the often overlooked, but really haxxed frog call by Ma and Pa which completely immobilises the target [
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], leaving Kisame unable to do anything due to the technique's sound based structure which means he cannot absorb it, leaving him vulnerable to a blitz from Minato, who can not only close the distance allowing him to tag him or potentially decapitate him (Kisame remaining still as a result of the jutsu's paralysis would provide Minato with the precision needed to cut his head off) but to also use this opportunity to remove Samehada from Kisame's grasp, which would fail to make it's way back to Kisame due to Hiraishin's extreme range. Thousand feeding sharks
- This ain't a problem at all. Each and every single one of these fodder sharks get evaporated/dispersed via Goemon, potentially evaporating all of Kisame's geographical advantage too. Evaporating the sharks would simply be a replication of what Gai seemingly did in Canon using Asa Kujaku [
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]What's waters boiling point? 100 degrees celcius (212 F for the Muricans'); for the sake of NV defying physics lets assume it's a little higher because it's reinforced with chakra and whatnot.
What's Goemon's temperature? It reaches thousands of degrees. Databook fact.
Inb4 Minato has no oil. Nope, but Gamabunta can use it and in large quantities too [
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]. This technique also has a sizeable AoE, covering quite a large horizontal perimeter [
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] meaning the majority of these sharks get smoked. What happens when you put water on boiling oil? It gets worse, as the video below shows. [video=youtube;H9vlwtHdoHs]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H9vlwtHdoHs[/video]
Of course there's the question of it getting absorbed. Not really happening though, is it. Not only did Samehada find a basic fireball [
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] overwhelming, but the thousand feeding sharks appear in a formation like this with Kisame on top of them [
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]; Goemon encompassing the ground means the get melted from the ground up. They later disperse [
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], so Kisame can't really do anything here. GSB would work, but Minato casually intercepts that with his space time barrier, redirecting it.For extra assurance safety measures, Minato sends Gamaken and Gamahiro to keep Kisame busy along with a couple of shadow clones.
Water shockwave + counterattacking
This technique allows for Kisame to grant himself the geographical advantage and technically, it should get evaporated by the sheer temperature of Goemon but for the readers sake, lets take another approach. Now naturally, any spread Kunai prior to the activation of this jutsu will be sunk but this is of little worries, as Minato can momentarily teleport to them and retrieve them, teleporting back to the surface by tossing a Kunai in the air. This jutsu doesn't restrict Minato's mobility as he's still able to walk on water, unless he's forced underneath like Gai was but due to teleportation, that isn't happening.
This would mean Minato would have to fight Kisame using one Kunai (Kisame still has 3 boss toads + Ma and Pa to worry about) but this doesn't really matter, as Minato was able to outmanoeuvre and finish Obito using a single Kunai too. Now the tricky thing about Hiraishin is that it has a radius [
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]-[
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] which Minato can exploit, allowing him to come from any direction and strike in an instant [
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]; unless Kisame isn't already submerged in one his Suitons, it's the beginning of the end right there.Using one Kunai we can also exploit Hiraishin ni no dan off the bat [
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], which Kisame has no prior knowledge to and won't know what to expect, at all. As manga knowledge for these two essentially means none, Kisame would most likely dodge like he did here [
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] and be met by an instantaneous Rasengan which doesn't kill Kisame of course, but rather it gives leeway for Minato mark him just like he did in canon [
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]. Kisame having no prior knowledge to a teleporter like Minato is bad news, and I really can't see any scenario other than him getting marked and killed.If he decides to come from underneath, boss toads handle his ass without fail. I'll leave it here for now.
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Unorthodox
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Kisame wins 10/10 add tobirama and 3rd raikage 4th raikage same thing happens he's just a bad matchup for them all.
Apêx1
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Although I agree that this technique is somewhat irrelevant and is not a core aspect in Kisame's strategy, it will still have an influence on this fight. Great Shark Bullet is never used just for its destructive power, it's used as a counter to another ability. This serves an excellent purpose against any large scale Oil that a normal Suiton cannot clear, or any other extremely large scale jutsu in which a regular Suiton would be useless. In the case that Goemon is used (it won't happen and I will get to that later) it can easily be absorbed by Kisame's Daikodan, especially if done at close range in which case Minato would not be capable of forming the hand seals in time for FTG barrier. To add to that, the lack of intel on an ability which can absorb chakra will further restrict Minato's ability to react to it properly from a close range. Not to mention if it absorbs large scale jutsu’s, it will grow bigger and grow outside of the range of his S/T barrier. Apart from that, your points don't add much as Kisame won't use Daikodan for the other purposes you mentioned.
The Toads are barely a real counter to the Water Dome. It will turn the fight into a fight of attrition, and that's a fight Minato does not want to try. Onoki remarked him as someone with equal to chakra reserves to a Bijuu [
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]. 30% Kisame was stated by Neji to be comparable to Naruto’s chakra (implicative that he meant with Kyuubi chakra against him in Chunin exams). He’s called the Tailless Bijuu,etc. Not a chance in hell Minato can compare to Naruto chakra-wise, who’s less than 1/3rd of Kisame’s reserves. Kisame can abuse this advantage by continuously spamming his abilities and forcing Minato to use chakra-taxing techniques to escape shitty situations. Not to mention the Water Dome is Mountain sized. People need to understand that the Water Dome is extremely large, so large that even Ponta, was almost a speck inside the Water Dome. Here’s Ponta’s size compared to others [
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][
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][
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]. He’s not that far off Gamabunta’s size (yes, I know he's still smaller). Point is, Ponta was only this big when leaving the water dome [
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]. Gamabunta will hardly have any effect at all on the Water Dome, and he’ll end up being prey to Kisame’s shark summons, which can be in Suiton form and physical form. Thus they will be capable of swarming Bunta continuously until he either dies from their attacks (they were capable of eating someone as durable as Kisame with ease) or he dies from Oxygen deprivation since Toads cannot breathe under water, nor are their swimming capabilities even comparable to that of a sharks. Kisame can also send sharks to attack Minato, who will have no way of stopping them whatsoever. Minato and Bunta would be under a continuous attack from the sharks and Kisame, and there’s absolutely nothing they can do about it since the Dome will follow everywhere Kisame moves to. And no, Bunta is not making shockwaves beneath the water, I don't know where this argument always comes from as the water resistance will decrease his power dramatically and limit his influence almost entirely. Jiraiya is an extremely intelligent fighter. You undermine his intelligence when you make claims like these. Although I agree with you that a contract with the toads is a contract with Bunta/Gamahiro/Gamaken/Gamakichi/etc. I don't believe that Shima and Fukasaku/The Great Elder Great Toad are a part of that contract. Why would Jiraiya possibly waste that much time trying to summon Shima and Fukasaku just so that they start on his shoulders? Wouldn't it be much faster to summon hem and have them jump on his shoulders? He'd have saved a tremendous amount of time, but despite all his intelligence he chose the longest way to do it? Yea, that's not how it works. Maybe if it was an idiotic character like Naruto I would agree, but Jiraiya's intelligence makes me believe there's absolutely no way he'd chance his entire fight with Pain so that he can have them 'start on his shoulders' rather then just be summoned and jump up, which is the difference of two-three panels and a 1 chapter+. Another pointer which helps my argument is this page [
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]. Jiraiya claims he's going into Sennin Modo and Gamaken automatically realises he's summoning Ma and Pa. Jiraiya finishes his sentence saying "yep he's calling on them" insinuating that the only way to go into Sennin Modo is to go through this entire ritual. There's absolutely no reason to believe Jiraiya went through all that trouble for nothing. The interview which happened before Shima and Fukasaku where ever seen? Saying that the Toads can't just instantly allow Jiraiya to enter SM without the ritual is fallacious, as the ritual does not gather Nature Energy for Jiraiya in the first place. Once they are on his shoulders he is almost instantly transforming into SM, the ritual is not necessary for that. The only thing the ritual is necessary for is the actual summoning of the two elders. Being able to go into SM by yourself or being incapable of going into SM by yourself has absolutely no relevance regarding the need for a ritual to summon Shima and Fukasaku. The Databook confirms nothing regarding Minato being capable of summoning Ma and Pa without a ritual, which is the topic at hand. All it confirms is the fact that if Minato summons them through a ritual (which will never happen vs Kisame) they will be summoned on his shoulders/merged.
And I am not even taking into the account the fact that Minato stated he has bad proficiency and has not used this technique much (if at all) in battle. So saying it will be his first choice when Water Dome is put up is not taking into account Minato's fighting style at all. So Ma and Pa being your only counters for the Water Dome isn't helping here.
I completely disagree with all your points here. CQC is not as bad as you are making it here. Sure, it’s a last resort and probably will never happen due to his Suiton shockwave being a much better option. But in the case it happens, Kisame still has a few cards to pull. Manga intel means Kisame can take advantage of Minato's lack of knowledge while exploiting his knowledge of Minato's superior speed (The Yello Flash). This is done through the utilisation of Suiton Mizu Bunshins. They completely counter Minato's style of fighting. They are probably Minato's worst match-up for a CQC fight, or anyone's for that matter. Even the Taijutsu beasts like Lee and Neji got caught in this technique. The second Minato tries to make contact [
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] with one of the many clones Kisame can create due to his Bijuu-like reserves, this happens [
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][
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]. Sure, Minato would be able to teleport out with his preset Kunai's. But that won't be helping him given the fact that this technique can be used repetitively, an Kisame can make as many clones as he wants and he won't be feeling a large effect on his chakra reserves. More so, once Water Shockwave’s been set up the only place for Minato to teleport to would be beneath the entirety of the Suiton jutsu. So he will be deprived of oxygen as he won’t be breathing within the Water prison or beneath the Water Shockwave. If Minato, on the other hand, tries to counter this technique with his own clones, he'll be losing out, because he's wasting precious chakra he could only sustain as an edo. And Kisame can simply outplay him by creating more clones then Minato can (far more chakra). Ma and Pa aren't happening here. No ritual can possibly occur in this fight due to Kisame's overwhelming AOE attacks. It's going to be a 1v1 and Kisame can surely win this with his clones. As a matter of fact, I don't even see how Minato damages Kisame? Look at it this way. Base Bee was far more powerful then V2 shrouded Ay [
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]. V1 shrouded Ay was capable of puncturing holes in the body of a CM2 user [
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]. The same CM user that could clash with Suigetsu's sword with his own body [
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]. Then, we look at the fact that Kisame was clashing heads with Bee and not budging an inch [
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]. We see v1 Bee destroying entire battlefields with his blitz [
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]. The same v1 that would go away with Kisame's Samehada's 1 swipe. Yet when v2 did his all out attack against Kisame, he only had his ribs busted [
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] and Bee reverted to v1 7 tails. Since we know Kisame can take 6 tails of v1 shroud in 1 go, we can imply that the difference between v2 and v1 is another 6 v1 tails (he reverted to v1 7/8 tails. So the fact that Kisame survived that attack with merely a busted rib implies any kunai stab from Minato is going to do no damage as a kunai would practically have no effect on Kisame's level of durability, cutting his first layer of flesh at best. A rasengan? Sure, it'd do damage if it makes contact.. But then again, Samehada absorbs it long before it makes contact, effectively nullifying Minato's only way of dealing damage barring the Toads. Another point, you say getting tagged would be the end.. But why is that? Once he merges with Samehada he would practically have a completely different body similarly to how Obito’s body changed when he became the Juubi Jinchuriki. Kisame’s body changed even more than Obito’s since his internal anatomy changes far more (becoming like that of a shark’s). So tagging him is barely the danger it would normally be. Furthermore, teleporting to a tagged-fused Kisame is a horrendous idea due to the spikes he can release from his body [
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, powerful enough to pierce someone as durable as Bee. So even if Kisame gets slashed with a Kunai, Minato is getting damaged too, and it's damage he cannot heal from, unlike Kisame.You are wrong on this one. For one, I have already addressed that they won’t be summoned. Two, if Kisame is in his shark state he will lack the eardrums normal people have. He will have a lateral line within his head, hence no outer ears. Thus there’s no reason at all for me to believe that Frog Call will work on him given his differing anatomy. Moreover, you claim he cannot absorb it but what proof do you have of this? It’s just chakra using sound as a medium. Take away the chakra and it’s pure sound which is not going to be doing any paralysing (otherwise it would need no chakra). Furthermore, Kisame can do a partial fusion with Samehada so that separating the two of them would be impossible.
Good thing they would only ever be used against large toads, and good thing this technique is never happening. And no, this is an open location, so it will have absolutely no effect on his ‘geographical advantage’ as it will disperse until it’s paper thin, unlike Kisame’s Water which can be controlled after its release. And it being a 1000 degrees doesn’t mean it will instantly evaporate all water. It needs to actually heat the water to that temperature, all the while said amount of water is being convected by much more water.
Sure, but if anything the Toads will be losing out on lots of chakra for much lesser on Kisame’s behalf. But again, I will ignore this as it isn’t part of the main argument, since Kisame is only ever using 1000 sharks as a follow up for water dome once Minato summons Gamabunta and another Toad.
Yea, because Minato has infinite chakra and Ma/Pa can summon all 3 toads, use Goemon, Frog Call just to counter Kisame’s jutsu. That’s not how it works, not that they are being summoned in the first place.
Uhh what? There’s no way for you to assume the kunai’s will be in locations that are safe for Minato to go to, given Kisame can release sharks into the water through his Suiton clones (his precautions for Minato’s speed). Goemon is not worth the chakra it would take from the Toads, as Kisame can simply outlast them if they keep using that jutsu. Not to mention that they won’t be summoned here. It’s a rather idiotic idea for Minato to try, especially if Kisame decides to release his actual shark summons which can find the kunai’s and do what Kisame tells them to do (stand ideal by them, go beneath Minato’s feet and try to attack him from beneath while Kisame attacks from above, etc). And with or without teleportation, throwing a kunai won’t change anything as the kunai will be going down too along with Minato (water comes from above). So nah, with or without teleportation, his kunai’s are brought down and he will not have anywhere safe to teleport to in the Shark infested water.
Yes, an Obito that was a child and had no reaction feats comparable to those of Kisame’s. He’s stopped Gai’s attacks, which have astounding striking speed (above Minato’s) but lesser movement speed. He’s dodged a Raiton pencil without sight of it [
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], and even swung his entire sword to v1 Bee’s attacks, who Sasuke could only react to due to his Sharingan. So sure, Minato can teleport, but his striking speed is not at the speed of his teleportation speed, hence him and his Samehada (which can react on its own) have the capacity to react to his attacks, alongside his ability to create clones of course. Furthermore, Kisame’s Samehada can move on its own, so in the case Minato comes behind Kisame, it can still be in the right place at the right time and release its spikes [
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]. Or rather, to prevent this altogether, he can create another precaution for Minato’s teleportation like this one [
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. So coming close to Kisame at all will be nigh impossible while he’s manoeuvring his Water Shockwaves. He can use the Suiton he created for the Shockwave for any other follow-up jutsu in the case summoning are made. Otherwise the sharks handle this and Minato’s kunai’s become useless on a water surface as they sink. This is Kisame's greatest option for this fight and it will be the main reason Kisame wins. Minato can be drowned by the waves, the Kunai's are drowned anyways, etc. Minato will only be capable of swimming up or summoning Gamabunta. The former will result in Suiton Sharks eating him alive while the latter will result in a close ranged 1000 sharks that will kill Gamabunta and allow the fight to end with a Water Dome.And wot? He has manga intel. Literally everyone knows who the “Yellow Flash” is. Kisame is not a child smh, he knew Kakashi instantly, he’ll surely know someone 10 times as famous as him. Someone whose face is engraved on the Hokage faces in Konoha (hes been there canonically). Kisame is 8 years older then Minato as well, so he probably participated in the 3rd Shinobi War as well, and had some intel of his teleportation speed. So saying he will outright get blitzed is fallacious, as a shinobi as intelligent as Kisame will surely take precautions, e.g. forming his Suiton Bunshins so that he doesn’t get blitzed, and figures out how Hirashin works to counter it accordingly.
Boss summons will be limited to a maximum of 1 in this fight given that Ma and Pa cannot be summoned. Minato’s fighting-capable limit is 1, and 2 would be his chakra capacity maximum and he’d be exhausted (no alive chakra feats to suggest otherwise). And yea, I know his chakra feats and what he did in the Kyuubi invasion so you don’t need to restate them, it does not warrant two Toad summons while remaining fighting capable. No other counter to Water Dome, so he’s dying then and there.
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KCN
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The bolded will only work one time. As we lack knowledge, GSB will no doubt absorb the oil and continue projecting towards us; though as I've previously shown, it's evaded effortlessly [
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] by the toads and Minato is self explanatory. After this, Minato will realise the mechanics of the technique, and from here he casually intercepts it with S/T barrier each and every time for us to utilise our strategies.As for Daikodan absorbing it at close range, your proposition is essentially null as the sharks are summoned in a vertical formation where they disperse later on, with Kisame standing on top of them [
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] creating an appropriate distance for Minato to intercept it with S/T Barrier. Handseals not fast enough you say? Minato was able to form the hand seals to the space time barrier in one panel [
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] intercepting a TBB, which could cross Konoha in literally a second. GSB is miles behind in speed.Your final point of GSB outgrowing the barrier is a bit ridiculous. The barrier intakes in direct correlation to the jutsu's size. Unless you're telling me Kurama's bijuu dama is the same size as the Juubi's.
What is this? This entire post is you stating the obvious. When did I ever say Minato's chakra > Kisame's? Gamabunta is not going to be alone. He will have the other two boss summons with him, but as you attempted to counter that below I'll address that then. Your mistake is thinking Minato's some chakra lacky. May I remind you he was a perfect sage? [
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] (confirmed by Fukasaku's dialogue with Naruto [
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]-[
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]). Minato simply took too long to enter it. Anyways, to enter SM your reserves must be huge, and Minato seemed to have done it so chew on that. You're talking as if he summons Bunta and then gets gassed. Despite his feats during Obito's invasion, whereby he summoned Bunta, teleported 2 Bijuu dama and teleported 100% Kurama among all the other jutsu and seals he performed (preceded by him using chakra to maintain Kushina's seal during labour, however long that may of been).With your complete underestimation of Minato's reserves now corrected, Bunta and the other two toads are more than enough to allow Minato to escape (despite Minato not needing to summon all 3). Their size and mass and excellent swimming prowess will prove too explosive for the sharks to handle, or at least stall Minato which isn't happening when 1 head towards an exit and the other 2 stall Kisame and the sharks. You must take into account the sharks sizes in comparison with the toads and their weapons. A horizontal swipe from Gamaken and Gamahiro (who wields duel swords) would eliminate a massive portion of the sharks, and Gamabunta can be gone with Minato in his grasp no problems. Another thing you're failing to acknowledge is that Kisame in a merged state in waterdome isn't battle efficient, rather he is suited for capturing [
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]meaning the toads aren't some helpless scrubs at his mercy. Finally, the toads can expel a large amount of oil to confuse the sharks navigation. Of course oil and water don't mix and the oil will soon travel to surface, but the initial release of the oil in conjunction with the amount of oil we have at our disposal should make this a quick job.
You're not really saying anything here, despite the impressive paragraph. Anyways, Kishimoto reaffirms his interview with the 3rd databook page;
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"The toads one is able to summon will depend on his/her abilities"
- Minato learned and perfected sage mode proven by his lack of this [
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] which means he was in direct training with the toad sages. Yet he cannot summon them? The second box refers to skill. Minato is one of the most skilled ninja in history; like I've said, Jiraiya didn't summon them first because they had to gather all the nature energy and whatnot allowing him to enter it instantly, which is what Jiraiya was trying to achieve. And no, they don't have to be stuck to your shoulders, we've seen that with Naruto [
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]. And the toad sages attaching themselves to the summoner is an entirely different technique in itself;Sage Art Amphibian Technique:
仙法・両生の術 Senpou: Ryousei no Jutsu - Sage Art: Amphibian Technique
Ninjutsu; Senjutsu
仙蝦蟇と体の一部を融合し、戦闘態勢を保つ術。自然エネルギーを集める”静”と戦闘を行う”動”に役割分担し、仙人モードを最大限活用する。
Fusion of a Sage Toad and a part of the (user’s) body; a jutsu that maintains combat-readiness. Dividing the roles of gathering Natural Energy “Stillness” and performing in combat “Motion”, using Sage Mode to its maximum practical use.
First Appearance: Volume 46, [Chapter 375] p. 47
[Anime Appearance: Naruto Shippuden Episode 131]
[The two roles are split/coordinated between the user and the Sage Toad - Fukasaku gathers Natural Energy while Naruto engages in combat.]
[/QUOTE]
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p. 321仙法・両生の術 Senpou: Ryousei no Jutsu - Sage Art: Amphibian Technique
Ninjutsu; Senjutsu
仙蝦蟇と体の一部を融合し、戦闘態勢を保つ術。自然エネルギーを集める”静”と戦闘を行う”動”に役割分担し、仙人モードを最大限活用する。
Fusion of a Sage Toad and a part of the (user’s) body; a jutsu that maintains combat-readiness. Dividing the roles of gathering Natural Energy “Stillness” and performing in combat “Motion”, using Sage Mode to its maximum practical use.
First Appearance: Volume 46, [Chapter 375] p. 47
[Anime Appearance: Naruto Shippuden Episode 131]
[The two roles are split/coordinated between the user and the Sage Toad - Fukasaku gathers Natural Energy while Naruto engages in combat.]
As you can see, Fukasaku has to remain still and gather nature energy in order to put them into sage mode, yet when Jiraiya summoned them he went into sage mode instantly, meaning that's exactly what the ritual is for confirmed by the databook in my opening post. Minato being bad at sage mode has nothing to do with the point; he had contact and trained with them.
This is just ridiculous. First of all, manga knowledge is manga knowledge. Kisame has shown no intel in the manga, so whatever hype cards you try and pull out for Minato is mere conjecture at best.
@Bold - Or he does this [
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] and follows up with this [
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]. The clones will never in a million years be able to track Minato's movements, so they die on impact with Minato immediately teleporting in and out of range (like with Ay) before the water prison even forms. Team Gai were caught because their movements weren't quick enough. Minato is light years ahead of all of them in speed, so them reacting to Minato isn't really debatable. Since Minato of all people isn't getting caught in the prison, the remainder of your post isn't really necessary.Kisame can make as many clones as he wants man. Minato does this [
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], teleports anywhere within the Hiraishin perimeter and blitzes them all before they know what him them. Water clones are still only 1/10th of the originals power, despite Kisame's reserves, they're going to be a lot weaker and less efficient. Especially considering the real Kisame is already severely outmatched in terms of speed. Adressed Ma and Pa above.
Very flawed. Kisame wasn't budging an inch because he was absorbing Bee's chakra [
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] on impact, nullifying the brunt and driving force of Bee's attack. Not to mention, strength /=/ durability. Kisame standing toe to toe with Bee physically isn't testament to his durability, but rather it's his resilience and strength. He still got his chest blown open, but he was able to heal it immediately due to his chakra absorbing properties. By your logic, strength = durability, which is quite ironic as I saw you arguing on another thread Itachi decapitates Tsunade (more strength than Kisame can ever hope to reach) with a basic kunai. Your comparisons are flawed to an extreme. Juugo taking on Suigetsu's blade with his own sword is durability, but we've seen a basic human like Kakashi block a full on swing from Zabuza, a much stronger adversary [
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] with his hand... and to completely shut down this analysis, Bee's V2 lariat did the exact same thing to a normal human like Sasuke [
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]. Is Sasuke super durable? No, you're just misinterpreting the jutsu. Lariat isn't meant to do more damage than that; having your chest blown away is the brunt of the damage, and both of those on the receiving end reaffirm that.Anyways, to completely shut down this point I show you this [
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]. Kisame's skin was breached by Samehada's spikes proving he's got normal skin. It's in fact his resilience to damage and strength which are superhuman. Minato will be more than capable of cutting his head off. No, I was saying it'd be the end if gets tagged in a CQC scenario without taking into account Kisame's fusion. Teleporting to a tagged/fused Kisame isn't something he has to do. Minato can use the FTG swapping technique with a clone and have Kisame run through by one of the toads massive tanto. Kisame fusing completely is only happening if he chooses to erect waterdome, which I've already proven is a technique for capture. However, even if he fuses on land like you're suggesting what's he supposed to do? His hands are webbed [
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] which restricts his jutsu capabilities massively. Also, your going to have to prove Kisame can erect bones from all parts of his body simultaneously; he isn't Kimimaro with the Kekkei genkai, so lets not assume he can walk around like this [
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]. Minato's far too quick for Kisame to be reacting to each and every blitz. If he goes fusion, then he also erects waterdome, which I've already countered now. You kidding bruh?
As long as Kisame can hear the technique, he will get paralysed and the jutsu will take more of an affect due to sharks outstanding sense of hearing. Frog call has nothing to do with the anatomy; as long as you can hear the jutsu, it works. Kisame has no counter to this. He hears it, gets paralysed, and then gets blitzed. And absorbing it isn't happening. You cannot absorb sound as it has no chakra inside of it, rather it's simply created using chakra but not maintained by it. Nail in the coffin is that Frog song, another sound based technique wasn't absorbed by Preta [
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]. By your logic, he should of been able to absorb the soundwaves long before the technique is activated. You're failing to realise the potential Goemon has when Bunta is the oil substitute instead of Jiraiya. Using a basic Katon (Jiraiya was also drugged so his knead release was piss poor at this time) his technique grew to stupendous sizes [
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]. Now imagine a Goemon; it'll encompass sizes comparable to Kisame's (bar the dome) technique without a doubt eliminating any and all sharks. Regardless if you're using it against the toads, as Goemon is still accessible despite Kisame's water source. And you must realise, if water evaporates at a measly 100 degrees, multiply that by thousands and the water will evaporate nigh instantly. It's just common sense. When does Kisame convect his watersources? He certainly didn't do it against team Gai. They were simply standing on a watery terrain. Goemon evaporates them all end of. Says who? Fukasaku was said to have immense reserves; naturally this would apply to Shima as well [
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]Will you stop making it seem like Minato summons one toad and then gasses? Anyways, I've shut down this point already.
You're under the illusion that Kisame will be able to keep up. I've already addressed the water clone tactic above; they're far too slow to keep up with Minato who will be able to blitz in and out of range in split seconds and cut them down similar to how Sasuke blitzed like 10 of Zabuza's water clones in part 1 (Tbh Minato's shunshin should suffice here). If he releases sharks from underneath, Minato switches to sensor mode [
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] and anticipates their arrival. Besides, if they come at him from above Goemon would eradicte them all, considering they'd be swimming right into it + he can deploy the toads to deal with any stragglers remaining. His kunai also won't be going anywhere, not if he fights Kisame using the same tactics as he did against Obito; even then Kisame's still getting outmanoeuvred. What's your strategy here? In one section you tell me Kisame counters with fused Samehada and a basic watersource and in the next he's in base using 5 feeding sharks with Samehada as precaution? You're all over the board bro.
That awkward moment when none of those reaction feats help him react to Minato, you know, the teleporting yellow flash hailed as the fastest ever at one point. Kisame couldn't even finish his sentence against 6th gate Gai (find it strange that he got blitzed by a guy who's jutsu he couldn't absorb,but had the upper hand against someone he could absorb? Minato is the former), yet I'm supposed to believe he's going to track Minato who can attack nigh instantaneously? [
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]. You are correct that Minato's striking speed is inferior to his teleportation speed, but if the opponent is marked he can attack basically instantly [
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]-[
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].-Sharks aren't reacting to Minato, he'd not only pop up inbetween them reducing their effectiveness but they're too slow to track him anyways
- Samehada definitely isn't tracking anything. Samehada can react to instant teleportation now? Good to know.
Not to mention Minato can call on a couple of clones who retain all his abilities, giving us a lot more angles to exploit with FTG. Minato's shadow clones aren't some fodder as well; them being able to teleport in and out of range providing more Kunai and a safe haven for Minato to retreat to is an option as well. Kisame's clones, at the end of the day, are only 1/10th and despite Kisame having large reserves, his real self is already outmatched in terms of speed and CQC, so his clones get obliterated with the utmost ease. Scale part 1 Sasuke dicing 10 of Zabuza's clones to the much, much, much faster Minato; then scale the Zabuza to the much stronger Kisame. That's what happens, they get negged.
Do you know what manga intel is? If he's shown intel in the manga, then he has intel. Otherwise, he's got nothing as nothing is known or confirmed, by the manga. He's as clueless on Minato's abilities as Minato is Kisame's. Which is one of the many reasons why Kisame loses this. Kisame has a knack for CQC and that's a fact, he does it in each and every one of his fights save for his final encounter with Gai, and that's only because he got wrecked by gates the first time. Minato will tag him.
Countered that.
Beans2
Sannin of the Scrolls 📜
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Let's get this wrapped up soon. Apex has one more post and then that's it, not enough time for a third post from both. Magatsu Izanagi is currently the judge for this debate. Do you guys want another judge? If so, find one.
DrProof
Kage in the Making 👑
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You wanna Db8 me fam?