[Discussion] AnimeBase Mafia : A Dance with Cult

Michelle

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You are the one who said the post is insulting generally speaking but you ask me to show you where and how you can take it as constructive.

I wanted from you the inititive, you should start.

Also I wanted to wait from 2 reasons: one is i didn't have time being a period of the year when some activity reports are required for the passed year at work and because i was playing in my free time few games. And the second but not last reason, for you to step back and think. Like I said, i had bad endgames myself and a good amount of time helped me to see the pov of the others.

If you want a part of criticism you should accept and make a change from it, you can start with

SK said:
You did more damage to townies than both Mafia and Serial Killer combined and you are the sole reason either mafia or serial killer would win this game.
What do you think made him say this?
 
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Sagebee

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You are the one who said the post is insulting generally speaking but you ask me to show you where and how you can take it as constructive.

I wanted from you the inititive, you should start.

Also I wanted to wait from 2 reasons: one is i didn't have time being a period of the year when some activity reports are required for the passed year at work and because i was playing in my free time few games. And the second but not last reason, for you to step back and think. Like I said, i had bad endgames myself and a good amount of time helped me to see the pov of the others.

If you want a part of criticism you should accept and make a change from it, you can start with


What do you think made him say this?
Was that post suppose to show him being constructive and not insulting? And are you saying you agree with his premise that I'm solely responsible for town losing?

You know what let me summarize his points and my rebuttals and you tell me if his points are legitamate.

Again his only criticism was that I had bad reads and stating that I have terrible skills to read scum as if I was responsible for causing town to die for 6 phases. The game lasted for only 3 phases. Before we look at my reads let's look at his for one he pushed you do you think that was a good read from him? Then he asked me to kill shanks in the first night you think that was a good read?

For one I was the only player hesitant in lynchs and tried push logical lynchs and have people be wary of illogical bandwagon lynchs which he was for. He was mad I killed him first night i targeted him i likely knew he was town wanted to test my theory town is cops and that i didnt like how he was guiding town since it was wreckless. The only big susses i had in the game were all red and al sama. All red for just acting erradict and not giving good lynchs which she admitted in the end of the game she was purposefully trying to throw the game. I was sussing al sama because I thought he was trying to initially misguide the gunsmith I gave him multiple opportunities to defend himself of that which he chose not to do. So can you blame me for having those susses?

Then I ask soul what reason should I have sussed ansat and alice not giving me any reason to suss them.

And he purposefully dismisses my accomplishment of being one of the last players and without ansat skill I could of won. But gives alice and ansat props of getting to that point but I'm solely at fault for town losing and his constructive criticism is that I suck at reading not giving me any advice on how I could improve giving him an opportunity to give me constructive advice which he chose not to. He also didnt want to awknowledge town that weren't trying that contributed to the lose nope I was solely at fault for the results.

So in light of that how can you say his post isn't meant to be insulting but constructive? When its literally insulting me which you've yet to call soul out on or give substantive and fair reasons its clear as day his "criticism" are shallow and intended just to smear me.
 
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AL_sama

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sorry @Michelle I m stepping in

if someone thinks me or sk insulted them [even tho we didn't] than that's fine they can feel free to do so

whether they wanna or not that's also totally up to them

I'VE HAD ENOUGH OF THIS POINTLESS ARGUMENT AND I DON'T WANNA SEE ANY FURTHER DISCUSSION ON IT
 

Sagebee

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sorry @Michelle I m stepping in

if someone thinks me or sk insulted them [even tho we didn't] than that's fine they can feel free to do so

whether they wanna or not that's also totally up to them

I'VE HAD ENOUGH OF THIS POINTLESS ARGUMENT AND I DON'T WANNA SEE ANY FURTHER DISCUSSION ON IT
You cant decide that if Michelle chooses to thats her choice and it's not pointless discussion because its holding you accountable for your actions which you dont want to be exposed as wrong for.
 
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SoulKiller

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Really so what al sama said was wrong but what soul didn't both were insulting my intelligence souls actually had more insults so I'm not sure how your excusing it as something heat in the moment.

And after reading his post do you find what he said to be constructive and fair? Please michelle tell me what I should of pulled from it since his insults were all that my reads sucked and saying that I'm incapable of making good reads. So is that a fair assessment especially in light of his own reads in the game?

Tbh the way I'm taking this is your just defending your mod friend. If you think what he said is actually not intended to insult and actually try to be helpful please explain how.

Also yes the point of the game is to have fun and to do that it requires an environment that the players are respectful to each other even more so the actual mods of the game. When the mods start picking on players because things don't go there way what example does that set and what environment does that create.

It's very clear his objective was to only insult because nothing he said was substantive or even actually fair. And more than the insults I take issue its him trying to smear me as a player and undermine what I actually did in the game. I think he knows exactly what he was doing and had malicious intent to smear me as a player. Funny tho how he was bigging me up in the beginning for my playing style showing even more how insincere what he was saying.

I'm not really expecting either al sama or soul to own up to their actions. I can't trust either them to play respectfully and fairly with me in the future so I don't want to be involved in any games they are participating in.
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Also I really dont even care for soul and al to see what they did as wrong and be held accountable for it. I just want to participate in a peaceful mafia game in the future with soul and al not in it if we can agree to that we can drop the discussion.
 
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Michelle

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sorry @Michelle I m stepping in

if someone thinks me or sk insulted them [even tho we didn't] than that's fine they can feel free to do so

whether they wanna or not that's also totally up to them

I'VE HAD ENOUGH OF THIS POINTLESS ARGUMENT AND I DON'T WANNA SEE ANY FURTHER DISCUSSION ON IT
I wish to talk about this game until we reach a conclusion, if possible. I will never make it an argument, and if this discussion can bring a slightest improvement in our general play, it's not pointless.



I will come back here to post in the morning, now is midnight for me.
 
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@AL_sama @SoulKiller seems al sama wants to bury the hatchet again all I care about is if we can be respectful to each other if we can do that then I wont have issue participating in future games with you two. If not we can play seperate games let's just keep this as a peaceful and respectful environment I really don't care about people acknowledging if they are wrong or not. We can agree to disagree and leave it at that.
 
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@AL_sama @SoulKiller seems al sama wants to bury the hatchet again all I care about is if we can be respectful to each other if we can do that then I wont have issue participating in future games with you two. If not we can play seperate games let's just keep this as a peaceful and respectful environment I really don't care about people acknowledging if they are wrong or not. We can agree to disagree and leave it at that.
You know what sagebee, sure you can make me lose shit ton of iq points sometimes but that's what makes you special! There is only one sagebee out there am I right? If i offended you in any shape way or form even tho it was not my intentions then I apologize for my "rudeness". I am by no mean a self entitled mod by which you are describing me. I don't want this position if it was up to me honestly. But you see it's not up to me. Which is why I am here, I have to be the bigger man and hope you have a wonderful day sir.

We always have to be respectful to one another.

See you in the next battle field soldier ^^

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Sagebee

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You know what sagebee, sure you can make me lose shit ton of iq points sometimes but that's what makes you special! There is only one sagebee out there am I right? If i offended you in any shape way or form even tho it was not my intentions then I apologize for my "rudeness". I am by no mean a self entitled mod by which you are describing me. I don't want this position if it was up to me honestly. But you see it's not up to me. Which is why I am here, I have to be the bigger man and hope you have a wonderful day sir.

We always have to be respectful to one another.

See you in the next battle field soldier ^^

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You couldn't help yourself taking shots in that post could you and thats you trying to bury the hatchet? I tried giving you chance but seems you cant help yourself so it's best we play separately.

And to say my decisions and playing style is illogical and especially illogical compared to other players is disingenuous. And if you really felt that way you would give me legit advice on it which you havent. But lets say you truly feel and think that way then it's best we play seperately so you don't suffer that anymore for your own sanity. :)
 
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Michelle

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Was that post suppose to show him being constructive and not insulting? And are you saying you agree with his premise that I'm solely responsible for town losing?
In fact every single player in a team is responsive for a loss.
Me for eg. because I let myself lynched, and i can find for everyone a reason, but what impacted the most town's team was coming from your slot. This is an objective thing, because you were the town night killing power.
Town vig is a two edged sword.
You know what let me summarize his points and my rebuttals and you tell me if his points are legitamate.

Again his only criticism was that I had bad reads and stating that I have terrible skills to read scum as if I was responsible for causing town to die for 6 phases. The game lasted for only 3 phases. Before we look at my reads let's look at his for one he pushed you do you think that was a good read from him? Then he asked me to kill shanks in the first night you think that was a good read?
Everyone can have bad reads in day 1.
It's not a crime to have bad reads, but your role in this game needs more time to play, reread and engage in discussions with everyone, trying to understand alignament. You need to see reactions, to compare meta with what you know and keep a reserve in your push. And you have to think at the reason of posting a thing or another from town vs wolf perspective.
You have to read thorough the thread, to see reaction for a slot from other players, to seize a possible scum agenda or narrative pushed, and see context and action from everyone. Each player need a separate read and you have to place him in a separate list and notice what gives him villa points or scum points. Sometimes a single villa point makes from a player a lock town, and that depends on the power of your belief you found his specific towntell or a general lock town action.
That doesn't exclude the continous reevaluation you have to do at any flip who brings you new data inputs.

The only players who have a clear lynch target are the wolves. They know who to lynch.
The simple fact Luke didn't defend me nor accused me would be enough for me to not SR him in day 2 if i were alive because he showed lack of information. Alice looked like she knew i am a mislynch but didn't take any action at Eod, so she had TMI and was pleased with the gamestate.

In this game Al played different than his scum game by the fact he cared about the game. This made me town read him.

The game has 3 days and 6 phases because night is a phase who alternates with the day phases.
You as town Power Role (PR) and having killing ability, you had actions to do in all game's phases.

I wish to remember you i was lynched with 2 votes which is atrocious.
Shanks wasn't playing at his capacity and I scum read him a lot, and looking at the fact he was modkilled latter, no matter he was town (PR or vanilla player) he would be a way better night one kill.
And he could be mafia very well at the way he played. Low and ambiguous poster.
I can understand paranoia too if you say you was convinced SK was scum.

But...

For one I was the only player hesitant in lynchs and tried push logical lynchs and have people be wary of illogical bandwagon lynchs which he was for. He was mad I killed him first night i targeted him i likely knew he was town wanted to test my theory town is cops and that i didnt like how he was guiding town since it was wreckless. The only big susses i had in the game were all red and al sama. All red for just acting erradict and not giving good lynchs which she admitted in the end of the game she was purposefully trying to throw the game. I was sussing al sama because I thought he was trying to initially misguide the gunsmith I gave him multiple opportunities to defend himself of that which he chose not to do. So can you blame me for having those susses?
If you "likely knew" he was town and still killed him you acted against your wincon. To kill a townie to test a theory is not the way to win a game.
You went too hard on the mechanics talk in day one and all the conversation around this was changing the point of the game which is to find scum. Scum will most easy be hiding in mechanics talk. So insisting several pages on this was not beneficial for villagers.

I had a town read for Al since the get go and I said iirc that Red cannot be mafia while playing like that. So idk why you suspected these 2. I can't find any reason. Except you SR Al because he didn't agree with you which is a vanity read. To find scum we need more than that. And he didn't interact with you, but then is the scum read more a punishment? Scum doesn't argue nor ignore someone because they are affraid of loosing, they would better pocket you during the game and slightly misdirect you. A confrontational attitude comes often from townies than wolves.

I have a question for you:
1. did you re-read the day one before you decided to shot SK?


Then I ask soul what reason should I have sussed ansat and alice not giving me any reason to suss them.
You should suspect Alice when she let me die without a vote on a counter wagon who would have 50% chance of saving me, saying in the same time she wants to help but it's not her fault SK went to bed after voting me. I said it from the top of my head, that was the moment when I knew she is scum. Townies really give a help when they say they want to help. Scum let things flow. Is the "laissez-faire" who benefits scum and who could be seen.

About Ansa until endgame i could maybe find reasons to scum read him but he has a nice day one and i town read him all the day. Though, when Luke flipped villager you could consider him town motivated and put for Ansa a big question mark. I would consider his oppinion valuable due to his play experience.
While is true that we should not sheep any reads, especially midgame NKs have a meaning and analising them is a good starting. Did you ever put the question in your mind "which are the NKs reasons?" ?

And he purposefully dismisses my accomplishment of being one of the last players and without ansat skill I could of won. But gives alice and ansat props of getting to that point but I'm solely at fault for town losing and his constructive criticism is that I suck at reading not giving me any advice on how I could improve giving him an opportunity to give me constructive advice which he chose not to. He also didnt want to awknowledge town that weren't trying that contributed to the lose nope I was solely at fault for the results.
Except i am scum, living until endgame makes me extremely furious against myself because when I am not mislynched like in this game meaning i had an under average play and I am not NKed meaning wolves needs me dead, being alive in the last day of the game especially when i am one of the last 3-4, means I played poor and/or i had bad reads.
As general rule, during the game the best townies are NKed by mafia so a player like SK living in d3 is sticking out as not town (so town vig NKing him in night 1 is a bad thing.)
Also the best wolves are usually the last wolves standing, so while lynching the wolves you have to search if possible for the active and dangerous ones. This requires game experience. Order to find and lynch wolves matters.
So at endgame you have usually the weakest or wrongest townplayers and the strongest or luckyest scum players.
So in light of that how can you say his post isn't meant to be insulting but constructive? When its literally insulting me which you've yet to call soul out on or give substantive and fair reasons its clear as day his "criticism" are shallow and intended just to smear me.
His criticism is not shallow but is underexplainey. Is not easy to post an whole mafia theory and i tryed, but i know it's not complete so for everyone who wants to add or ask, i hope this discussion will help.


Not connected with SKs post but as general thing and including my personal dissapointement, the lack of activity from town players including not voting and not reading the thread, adding paranoia against the active players, will not help our games and will not give improvement.

____________
All this post was almost ready yesterday but i went to work and was busy after. Sorry for being late.
 
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In fact every single player in a team is responsive for a loss.
Me for eg. because I let myself lynched, and i can find for everyone a reason, but what impacted the most town's team was coming from your slot. This is an objective thing, because you were the town night killing power.
Town vig is a two edged sword.
Michelle he didn't say I was responsible for the loss because of my role he said that I'm a terrible player that is incapable of making reada based on this games results and nothing else. Do you find that fair and acceptable?

And let say soul had my role and I was to say soul these game results are all your fault your a terrible player that's incapable of making reads that watching you play diminishes my intelligence. How do you find that to be acceptable and constructive? I'm very positive if the roles were switched you wouldn't be excusing me like your excusing soul.

Everyone can have bad reads in day 1.
It's not a crime to have bad reads, but your role in this game needs more time to play, reread and engage in discussions with everyone, trying to understand alignament. You need to see reactions, to compare meta with what you know and keep a reserve in your push. And you have to think at the reason of posting a thing or another from town vs wolf perspective.
You have to read thorough the thread, to see reaction for a slot from other players, to seize a possible scum agenda or narrative pushed, and see context and action from everyone. Each player need a separate read and you have to place him in a separate list and notice what gives him villa points or scum points. Sometimes a single villa point makes from a player a lock town, and that depends on the power of your belief you found his specific towntell or a general lock town action.
That doesn't exclude the continous reevaluation you have to do at any flip who brings you new data inputs.
So you admit a person can have bad reads soul is saying my reads that my reads are so bad that I should of knew better that they were town. I give you the reasoning for my reads which you dont say are bad and you clearly say your lynch was a bad one which I called it out to be.

And your telling me I should take special considerations for my choices which I did and which he didn't. Also what your saying to me is actually constructive, respectful and with the intent of actually making me a better player which his post wasn't.

The only players who have a clear lynch target are the wolves. They know who to lynch.
The simple fact Luke didn't defend me nor accused me would be enough for me to not SR him in day 2 if i were alive because he showed lack of information. Alice looked like she knew i am a mislynch but didn't take any action at Eod, so she had TMI and was pleased with the gamestate.

In this game Al played different than his scum game by the fact he cared about the game. This made me town read him.

The game has 3 days and 6 phases because night is a phase who alternates with the day phases.
You as town Power Role (PR) and having killing ability, you had actions to do in all game's phases.

I wish to remember you i was lynched with 2 votes which is atrocious.
Shanks wasn't playing at his capacity and I scum read him a lot, and looking at the fact he was modkilled latter, no matter he was town (PR or vanilla player) he would be a way better night one kill.
And he could be mafia very well at the way he played. Low and ambiguous poster.
I can understand paranoia too if you say you was convinced SK was scum.

But...


If you "likely knew" he was town and still killed him you acted against your wincon. To kill a townie to test a theory is not the way to win a game.
You went too hard on the mechanics talk in day one and all the conversation around this was changing the point of the game which is to find scum. Scum will most easy be hiding in mechanics talk. So insisting several pages on this was not beneficial for villagers.

I had a town read for Al since the get go and I said iirc that Red cannot be mafia while playing like that. So idk why you suspected these 2. I can't find any reason. Except you SR Al because he didn't agree with you which is a vanity read. To find scum we need more than that. And he didn't interact with you, but then is the scum read more a punishment? Scum doesn't argue nor ignore someone because they are affraid of loosing, they would better pocket you during the game and slightly misdirect you. A confrontational attitude comes often from townies than wolves.

I have a question for you:
1. did you re-read the day one before you decided to shot SK?
I didn't just shoot sk to test my theory I felt that he was too wreckless as your telling me to take more consideration in my decisions he didnt especially in a game where every phase is crucial. I couldn't afford to have town misguided on another lynch. And what exactly did you hope for me to pull from it from rereading it. In the first phase there wasnt any obvious scum players and the way he pushed you was the scumiest thing in the game so far. Which you say was an "atrocious" choice.

Shanks on the other hand only posted once if he was scum he wouldnt put that type of attention on himself and either a player that's not trying that needs to be subbed or maybe is busy and needs another phase to redeem himself. That would of been a clear waste of my first shot to go after him.

Al sama I pushed after testing my theory on the gunsmith role he continued to push that it was incorrect when I gave him multiple opportunities to explain why which he didn't. I spent only some time in the first phase trying to understand the mechaniacs of the game and point of the gunsmith role even using my night phase to verify its roles function. He only said town can't have guns because they are vanilla roles even tho the actual roles are cops. I asked him to prove that to be a fact since he was so sure which he didnt. Even outside of that he didnt contribute too much in the game only responded things relating to him. And in general showed no signs that he was sincerely trying to find scum.

What's your view on Allred do you think she was obviously town even in light of her saying she would throw the game?


You should suspect Alice when she let me die without a vote on a counter wagon who would have 50% chance of saving me, saying in the same time she wants to help but it's not her fault SK went to bed after voting me. I said it from the top of my head, that was the moment when I knew she is scum. Townies really give a help when they say they want to help. Scum let things flow. Is the "laissez-faire" who benefits scum and who could be seen.

About Ansa until endgame i could maybe find reasons to scum read him but he has a nice day one and i town read him all the day. Though, when Luke flipped villager you could consider him town motivated and put for Ansa a big question mark. I would consider his oppinion valuable due to his play experience.
While is true that we should not sheep any reads, especially midgame NKs have a meaning and analising them is a good starting. Did you ever put the question in your mind "which are the NKs reasons?" ?


Except i am scum, living until endgame makes me extremely furious against myself because when I am not mislynched like in this game meaning i had an under average play and I am not NKed meaning wolves needs me dead, being alive in the last day of the game especially when i am one of the last 3-4, means I played poor and/or i had bad reads.
As general rule, during the game the best townies are NKed by mafia so a player like SK living in d3 is sticking out as not town (so town vig NKing him in night 1 is a bad thing.)
Also the best wolves are usually the last wolves standing, so while lynching the wolves you have to search if possible for the active and dangerous ones. This requires game experience. Order to find and lynch wolves matters.
So at endgame you have usually the weakest or wrongest townplayers and the strongest or luckyest scum players.
For alice your saying like me she likely knew you were town and still allowed you to die? I dont remember her read on you but if true to me that isnt enough to scum read her. Since also I knew you were likely town but since the people set on lynching you were set on it and since soul is seen as a credible player likely wanted to trust his decision making.

I also want to note again this is actual constructive advice to better my reads in games which is actually helpful.

Between paperboi, ansat and alice in end game to you who was the most scummiest at that point? For me Alice and ansat didn't really make any scummy moves while paperboi jumped to sussing me and ansat for no reason which I initially excused when entering the game but considering he was subbing for elmage who didnt even try to participate put him in a more scummier light.

Also yes I did try to analyze the night kills even posting my reads on the night kills in the day phase. But it wasnt too helpful for me till the last phase to figure out the targets.

His criticism is not shallow but is underexplainey. Is not easy to post an whole mafia theory and i tryed, but i know it's not complete so for everyone who wants to add or ask, i hope this discussion will help.


Not connected with SKs post but as general thing and including my personal dissapointement, the lack of activity from town players including not voting and not reading the thread, adding paranoia against the active players, will not help our games and will not give improvement.

____________
All this post was almost ready yesterday but i went to work and was busy after. Sorry for being late.
How was it not shallow if all it said is that I suck and didn't explain anything to me. Also do you think it's okay that he diminishes and disregarded what I was able to accomplish in this game when it was more fast paced and more high stakes? Also do you agree that other town especially those with abilities didn't really help me town read themselves or other players. Seems you agree that town wasn't doing there best but wants to put all the blame of the game on me and insult me as a player and person.

Seems you don't want to really focus on the insults and unfair accusations of souls posts which is fine with me even tho as mods you guys should hold each other to a higher standard. I gave both an opportunity to respectfully hash out the game and move on which neither wanted to do so like I said it's best I play seperate from them.
 
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@AL_sama @SoulKiller seems al sama wants to bury the hatchet again all I care about is if we can be respectful to each other if we can do that then I wont have issue participating in future games with you two. If not we can play seperate games let's just keep this as a peaceful and respectful environment I really don't care about people acknowledging if they are wrong or not. We can agree to disagree and leave it at that.
look I've nothing personal against you

I don't mind plying with or without you

if something or someone annoys me in mafia [in this case your play and logic] than I say it out loud that's just how I play mafia so if you took "offense" in it than I guess I m sorry tho I won't change my play just cause of that

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look I've nothing personal against you

I don't mind plying with or without you

if something or someone annoys me in mafia [in this case your play and logic] than I say it out loud that's just how I play mafia so if you took "offense" in it than I guess I m sorry tho I won't change my play just cause of that

peace
My issue with you isn't your play its literally insulting me where other players and even Michelle called you out on it.

If you don't get my decision making that's fine but if you think what I'm doing or saying is wrong then you should properly inform me to why its wrong. Our only issue in the game is you stated something to be true to never actually trying to explain why. So if I suss you because of that it's due to your own negligence in the game to property participating with player. Also even outside that in the beginning you jumped to sussing a player instead of attempting to discuss with them first to understand their rational.

All I want is to play with others in a respectful manner if you can do that in the future that's good. If you feel you cant do that and you consider it to be apart of your "play" then I can't.
 
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AL_sama

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@Michelle Also another thing I want to add is I'm not sure how other players awknowledge it's wrong to blame one player for the results of the game but as mods can't awknowledge that to be wrong.
this has nothing to do with us being mods
My issue with you isn't your play its literally insulting me where other players and even Michelle called you out on it.

If you don't get my decision making that's fine but if you think what I'm doing or saying is wrong then you should properly inform me to why its wrong. Our only issue in the game is you stated something to be true to never actually trying to explain why. So if I suss you because of that it's due to your own negligence in the game to property participating with player. Also even outside that in the beginning you jumped to sussing a player instead of attempting to discuss with them first to understand their rational.

All I want is to play with others in a respectful manner if you can do that in the future that's good. If you feel you cant do that and you consider it to be apart of your "play" then I can't.
I explained the re reasons quite a few times in game thread but it didn't get through you and I don't see any point of wasting my time by doing it "AGAIN" so meh

like I said if you can't play then don't no one is forcing you to do so
 

Sagebee

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this has nothing to do with us being mods

I explained the re reasons quite a few times in game thread but it didn't get through you and I don't see any point of wasting my time by doing it "AGAIN" so meh

like I said if you can't play then don't no one is forcing you to do so
Yes it relates to being mods if regular players are calling you out for conduct and blaming players for the results it should cause you guys to reflect on your guys actions. As mods you should hold yourself to high standard of conduct and not create an environment for you guys to attack players you disagree with.

Also the only explanation you gave is that town are vanilla roles so they don't have weapons (which you didn't even explain that properly you just posted the roles and I had to infer myself what you meant) and I asked why does that have to be the case even tho there roles are cops and all you said it research it. So you weren't being helpful to explain why you are correct.

And I never said I wont play mafia games I said if you guys feel it difficult to deal with me in a respectful manner then let's play seperately.
 
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