Analysing and Correcting some misconceptions about Kiri Kiri Mae

[genii96]

Nice thread. Agreed
though blocking,or making handsigns to counter something that travels several hundred metres per sec is almost impossible,especially if the person is at mid range.

 

[genii96]

Nice thread. Agreed
though blocking,or making handsigns to counter something that travels several hundred metres per sec is almost impossible,especially if the person is at mid range.

 

[Draphsin]

Introduction
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Alright so in this thread, I will be analysing Temari's ultimate attack and correcting some misconceptions that some people like to spew in Versus threads involving Temari.

If you don't know what I am talking about, please open the spoiler and see the attack for yourself.

Spoiler

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Analysis of Kiri Kiri Mae
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Just to behold how strong this attack is, take a good look at how far away the range of its devastation goes out for. I used to estimate its range to be around 100 m but I severely underestimated it. It turns out the effects of KKM stretch out for hundreds of meters. If you want proof of where I got this number, just check out the 2nd data book hidden beneath this next spoiler. Lastly, if it wasn't for all the trees in the forest, the attack would span an even greater range and be even faster due to less resistance.


Bear in mind that we can't really tell how far the area of effect stretches out because we see the attack, not from bird's eye view but from a slanted perspective. Thus we can't perceive the full distance this attack spans.

Also it is important to note what exactly this attack is and how it is delivered. First off, Temari rubs blood on her fan. Then she swings her fan and out comes

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, the weasel that decimates everything that comes close to it. This creature is clearly visible when Temari first summons it but once it starts moving,you can no longer see it in any other panels. This is because, as the

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says, once it starts moving, Kamatari can not be seen by the unaided eye. Considering Kamatari is the medium through which this attack travels, it means this attack is very fast which is proven by the fact that it managed to cover a distance spanning several hundreds of meters in a very small amount of time.

Next, notice the data book says that Temari whips up a tempest, then Kamatari rides this tempest slashing everything in its path. This means the gust of wind that Temari whips up is what causes Kamatari to move so fast. Since current Temari has faster and much more powerful wind attacks, this means that if Temari were to use KKM as of now, the attack would be even faster and its range of devastation would be much greater.

The databook says that kamaitachis in Japanese folklore are weasels that can cut things without touching them. We know that Kishi likes to use Japanese mythology especially with the Uchiha and he also does this with Temari which I'll explain onwards. Take a good look at this

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between the red lines. Basically while Kamatari is riding the wind current created by Temari, it itself creates massive wind currents from its own scythe. My point in demonstrating this fact is to show that merely attacking Kamatari to stop this jutsu is futile since anyone coming close to Kamatari will get sliced apart before they launch any close range attacks and most long range attacks will most likely get repelled by the heavy wind currents. Coupled with Kamatari's immense speed and destructive power, this jutsu is very difficult to dodge, block and/or stop.

Spoiler

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Now to Correct some common Misconceptions
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Misconception #1: Tayuya's skin tanked Kiri Kiri Mae​

I've seen quite a few people underrate this technique because they say that Tayuya wasn't sliced apart by the wind slash created by KKM. It is true that Tayuya didn't get cut by the wind slash but this is not because she tanked it, but it is because she never got hit by the wind slash itself. Recall that the data book says that the winds created by KKM end up blowing debris everywhere and this debris, in this case logs of trees, was what hit Tayuya, killing her instantly. Since the wind created by Kamatari sliced apart trees and then blew those logs in all directions, the logs ended up crushing Tayuya before the wind slash itself hit her. Now you must be wondering, why did KKM not hit Tayuya afterwards. Well this is because the incoming tree logs buried Tayuya under a pile of rubble laying Tayuya down. Since Tayuya was laid down, the wind currents created by Kamatari and Kamatari itself passed over herself, thus she never actually got hit by the attack. Another point to note is that Temari was

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on a

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when KKM was used thus further supporting the fact that KKM passed over Tayuya as opposed to actually hitting her directly.

Spoiler

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Misconception #2: Kiri Kiri Mae can't decapitate opponents​

Misconception #2 stems from misconception #1 where people think that KKM never scratched Tayuya's skin, therefore, it can't slice an opponent in half. Now that I have tackled misconception #1, tackling this one should be relatively easy. This proof will use a lot of A>B>C logic which should be valid in this case and possibly some arbitrary and questionable assumptions but you'd most likely be very dense and stubborn if it doesn't occur to you that KKM can decapitate (slice in half) ordinary shinobi.

Proof #1: In english, Kuchiyose: Kiri Kiri Mae is translated to be

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according to the Naruto Wiki. Of course the English translation of the anime or manga won't use such a gruesome name so it was renamed Summoning: Blade Dance. Anyway the name depicts the technique to be quick which I already explained previously in great detail. Next it also implies that it can behead shinobi which makes sense since nothing less can be expected from a powerful slicing based fuuton.

Proof #2: Weaker attacks compared to Temari's ultimate attack have decapitated opponents so Temari herself is capable of decapitation. For example, Asuma's

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decapitated Hidan whose durability allowed him to

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a powerful pressure based wind attack called

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an attack which can crush ordinary shinobi. The winds/shockwaves created by Kiba's

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managed to

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into several pieces. Bear in mind Juubi clones are larger than ordinary ninjas and made out of thick skin

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so they are obviously more durable than ordinary shinobi. The reason why I consider Temari's KKM to have superior cutting ability than Asuma's hien is because of several reasons:

1. In part one alone, Temari managed to slice hundreds of trees worth of wood and those trees were around a meter thick each. If we take several hundred meters to equal 500 m, it would imply that Temari cut through approximately 500 m worth of wood. This means if a giant wooden structure that is 500 m thick were to face the attack, it would get sliced in half. This is something which Asuma is most likely

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. Bare in mind I just used a feat of part one Temari's to compare to Asuma's and current Temari is on a whole other level hence that 500 m worth of wood she can cut may actually now be well over 1 km.

2. Temari hasn't used KKM in Shippuden but she was about to use it before Naruto showed up and she stated

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.

Spoiler

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What this means is that KKM's power is comparable to the

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which managed to inflict some wounds into the 3rd Raikage's immensely durable body. The reason why KKM's power should be comparable is because if it wasn't, Temari would not have contemplated trying to use it. She should have general knowledge on how strong these attacks are since she is a proficient and skilled fuuton user who has them in her arsenal. In the spoiler below, you will notice that

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who is better than her when it comes to using fuuton so I highly doubt an average jounin who doesn't specialize in fuuton, like Asuma, will trump a jounin like Temari who actually specializes in using fuuton.

Spoiler

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3. As for Temari's attacks being stronger than Kiba's, shouldn't this be obvious? A chakra based slicing wind attack from a jounin should be much much more powerful than a non chakra based slicing attack from a chunin. Not debatable. KKM in and of itself isn't a chakra based slicing attack which you will learn later on but it is stronger than Temari's other jutsus which are chakra based.

Proof #3: The Anime team depicted Temari's ability to slice opponents in half. Towards the end of

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, Temari manages to slice the priest in half before he is sealed. Logically speaking, experts who are in charge of the anime should logically know a lot about the Narutoverse and thus make informed choices when a character does something. This just goes to show that there are experts who agree with me that KKM is capable of decapitation.

Misconception #3: Kiri Kiri Mae is Chakra Based​

Most people make the mistake of assuming that since KKM is a ninjutsu, it can be absorbed by chakra absorbing techniques. This isn't true and now that you have read everything else in my thread, you will realize why it isn't. The way the technique is cast is similar to how Madara's perfect susanoo creates

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just by swinging its sword, but obviously on a much smaller scale. KKM isn't a wind natured chakra attack since it is Kamatari that produces the massive slicing winds through swinging its scythe and traveling at high speeds. In conclusion, this attack utilises natural winds as a medium of attack, not something made of chakra.

I agree with everything except for the bold, really well thought out & I underestimated the jutsu as well.

However even if the anime supports what you're saying, you shouldnt use it as evidence either, they make their own choices while kishi focuses on his manga, I wouldnt call them "experts" but rather they take what info kishi gives them through the manga & expand on it.

 

[Xlad]

Dude that is like, your opinion bruh.
OT: Never thought about number 3. I'll look more into it when I have time. Very nice thread I've seen in a while.

 

[Icelerate]

Whats the difference between temaris wind jutsu and rock lee?
Ask Foddara Uchiha

Both are extremely fast and can't be seen by the unaided eye? Well the sharingan is clearly above the level of an unaided eye so a skilled sharingan user will have no trouble reacting to Kamatari and since Uchiha specialize in katon, they can easily kill Kamatari, thus countering KKM.

Nice thread. I agree with 1 and 2; however, I think you have it wrong on 3.

The attack actually is chakra based, but it's not Temari's wind chakra, it's her summoning's chakra.

Her summoning used wind release to spread the wind such a distance. There is no way a weasel spinning fast would cause such damage over 200m, the weasel enhanced his cutting power with wind release. This is similar to how Gamabunta uses water release to spew out water guns. Summonings can use elemental jutsu.

This is a fictional manga where a nonamed fodder can create shockwaves that can cut through stone pillars (

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)(

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) so it is not farfetched to claim that an extremely fast summoning can create such devestation with simply natural slicing winds. Speaking of summonings, Katsuyu spits acid but it isn't a ninjutsu that can be absorbed. Gamabunta produces water out of his own chakra, Kamatari is a small summon incapable of producing very large currents of wind through chakra alone since a small summon will have less chakra unlike Gamabunta who'd have massive amounts of chakra in comparison. However, its small size allows it to travel extremely fast and swing its blade very fast which is the only explanation as to why KKM is so strong.

If you are going by Naruto Wiki on some points, the Wiki also says the jutsu is a wind release:

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It could be just a popular assumption. On the other hand, Temari does propel Kamatari with wind release so the collaboration between Temari and Kamatari can be considered a wind release technique.

Actually, still thinking about this, I believe Temari did use wind chakra to use the tech. As you could see, she swung her fan to create wind to send her weasel flying. So I believe it was her who used wind chakra to give the weasel a boost then the weasel finished the job.

She obviously does use wind natured chakra to create wind currents. She is not physically strong enough to swing her fan fast enough to create massive gusts of lethal wind. Yes, Temari does give the weasel the boost to travel around the battlefield.

Also, this is another important thing I must say. If you say Temari swinging her fan is just like Susanoo swinging it' sword to create a powerful shockwave of winds, then by that logic, none of Temari's jutsu is Fuuton because you're saying her swinging her fan is just a shockwave of wind which uses the weasel as a medium to expand and strengthen it. As Temari already admitted she uses Fuuton, it should be evident her swinging her fan to push the weasel into action is wind chakra based.


All in all, good thread

I agree that when she propels her summon, she uses wind release but Kamatari itself doesn't use wind release.

Nice thread. Agreed
though blocking,or making handsigns to counter something that travels several hundred metres per sec is almost impossible,especially if the person is at mid range.

Indeed and very few people have knowledge on how KKM works so it becomes even harder to counter/react to.

I agree with everything except for the bold, really well thought out & I underestimated the jutsu as well.

However even if the anime supports what you're saying, you shouldnt use it as evidence either, they make their own choices while kishi focuses on his manga, I wouldnt call them "experts" but rather they take what info kishi gives them through the manga & expand on it.

The anime wasn't my main piece of evidence and I used other pieces of evidence. I was just pointing out that if even the anime supports my point and the anime is usually correct, people should understand that they are most likely wrong if they think KKM doesn't decapitate opponents. You said it perfectly yourself, the anime team takes what Kishi gives them and expands upon it.

Dude that is like, your opinion bruh.
OT: Never thought about number 3. I'll look more into it when I have time. Very nice thread I've seen in a while.

Thanks but even if it may be my personal opinion, it is better backed by manga facts unlike some other opinions on this technique.

 

[TheAncientCenturion]

Nice thread Ice, the only issue I had was the bit towards the end. While the Edo Raikage would have superior durability than other ressurected Counter Parts, it would not be anywhere near his full strength/durability when he was alive. Edo Tensei has shown a few times that the jutsu doesn't have comparable reistance to harm that living beings do.

But I did find the overall analysis interesting. Specially the part on how Temari's jutsu stretches on for so long.

 

[Icelerate]

Nice thread Ice, the only issue I had was the bit towards the end. While the Edo Raikage would have superior durability than other ressurected Counter Parts, it would not be anywhere near his full strength/durability when he was alive. Edo Tensei has shown a few times that the jutsu doesn't have comparable reistance to harm that living beings do.

But I did find the overall analysis interesting. Specially the part on how Temari's jutsu stretches on for so long.

This thread was about Kiri Kiri mae, not about Wind Cast Net but regardless, you'd have to agree that even as an edo, the 3rd Raikage would have insane durability?

Oh and BTW, Kisame can't absorb KKM. Does this mean Temari solos Kisame?

 

[TheAncientCenturion]

This thread was about Kiri Kiri mae, not about Wind Cast Net but regardless, you'd have to agree that even as an edo, the 3rd Raikage would have insane durability?

Oh and BTW, Kisame can't absorb KKM. Does this mean Temari solos Kisame?

His durability would be above that of his fellow Edo's, but at best it's slightly above an average persons.

And can you explain the last bit xD? Sorry, haven't read the thread in how long?

 

[Icelerate]

His durability would be above that of his fellow Edo's, but at best it's slightly above an average persons.

And can you explain the last bit xD? Sorry, haven't read the thread in how long?

Not really, if his durability was slightly above an average person, he'd have gotten sliced apart pretty easily by any decent shinobi.

Last part just means that KKM isn't a chakra based attack so it can't be absorbed much like perfect susanoo sword slash.

 

[TheAncientCenturion]

Not really, if his durability was slightly above an average person, he'd have gotten sliced apart pretty easily by any decent shinobi.

Last part just means that KKM isn't a chakra based attack so it can't be absorbed much like perfect susanoo sword slash.

In Edo state, his durability isn't really something I'd comment on still. A regular Edo Tensei is unable to withstand a paper bomb. A shinobi is with ease. The fact of the matter is his body wouldn't be at the state it once was, and at best balances out the effects of Edo Tensei.

 

[Icelerate]

In Edo state, his durability isn't really something I'd comment on still. A regular Edo Tensei is unable to withstand a paper bomb. A shinobi is with ease. The fact of the matter is his body wouldn't be at the state it once was, and at best balances out the effects of Edo Tensei.

Paper bombs are strong enough to blow off limbs whether one is edo or not (

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). Paper bombs yield much less damage compared to most fuuton especially one as powerful as Wind Cast Net.