[VS] Ace vs Time Skip Sabo

Kαmi

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The 2nd division commander spot was open when Ace joined. If division number equaled strength, then why wasn't Jozu just promoted to 2nd division commander during that period where it was empty?
Either Jozu was meant to stay with his division instead of switching to another one or WB wanted someone from amongst the 2nd division (or others I suppose) to step up and prove their worth to take the empty division commander spot like Ace did.

OT: I think Sabo wins, mid-high diff.
 

Uzumaki Macho

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We don't know how strong Jozu was back then, but we do know Ace was a Shichibukai contender and he defeated Doma, all prior to becoming 2nd division commander.
The 2nd division spot was empty before Ace even joined, so why wasn't Jozu just promoted to 2nd division commander?
 

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Yet he warred off Kuzan's attack [ ] so being one shotted by an admiral is somewhat out of context. Akainu was simply at an advantage due to his magma. And don't forget that Akainu had intent to KILL while Fujitora was shitting on Sabo without intent to kill.
Actually Fujitora used stronger attacks against Sabo than what Akainu or Kuzan used while fighting Ace.Besides he stared fighting seriously at the middle of the battle yet Sabo didn't receive any notable wounds Ace couldn't fare any better even if he wasn't at a disadvantage as even Marco was hopeless against Akainu. Sabo on the other hand fought an admiral for a decent amount of time and barely even received a wound.

If we go by portrayal they're equally strong with same ages when they were kids so we can assume that their growth rate is almost same. Pre TS Ace might be significantly stronger since he had MMnM which'd cause sudden rise in his strength but still Sabo takes cake in case of raw fighting skills,durability/endurance and speed because Ace like every other fruit user should have ignored to worry about those traits. Sabo should currently be much stronger than pre TS Ace now that has his fruit and two years of more training in raw skills. We have already witnessed how much of a change a period of two years can cause.

You're basically saying that imaginary post TS version of Ace needs to go as far as high dif to beat pre TS Ace which I believe doesn't make much sense given how much Luffy and others has changed over two year skip.

 
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ToshiZO

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Wasn't my point, point is using feats to dictate who's stronger in a manga which is full of people with a lack, or people without feats is wrong. Commander positions denote strength implicatively. Marco>Jozu>Vista>weaker>weakkerrr> etc. Ace is 2nd commander, so we can insinuate that this is the case and that he is stronger then Jozu. Also, feats wise he's not as bad as people are making him out to be, he clashed on par with Kuzan's Ice with his Fire. Already asked to join shichibukai before he even joined WB pirates. He fought Jinbei equally and Jinbei has feats of warding off Akainu's punch, and seemingly is extremely resistant to heat (counters Ace pretty good by that, along with the ability to extinguish the fire with water).

If I was to use your logic of 'feats or gtfo' I'd just say Jozu can't cover his entire body with diamond because it's never been shown, and then Dai Enkai Entei has potential to inflict severe burns. Also, Ace can fly in the air and Jozu would never get to him, Ace would pretty much take no damage while Jozu would be taking significant burns.
1.Which is why I'm going by feats and portrayal. Not to mention that's not how it works. If you have a feat which is inferior to someone else you most likely are below them.

2.Do you know Burgess is the first division commander of the Blackbeard Pirates? Do you honestly think Burgess is Blackbeards strongest subordinate. This fact alone renders the whole commander number point obsolete, I mean if we didn't have feats and portrayal to back what I say up you would have more of a point, but Jozu clearly had a better showing.

3. Ace got the spot which was open, nothing more nothing less, he was strong enough to be a commander so he replaced the open spot

4.Since when could Ace fly? Maybe he can glide around for a bit but full out flying? I don't think so. Going by this he should have just done that against Blackbeard instead of taking him head on.

Ace is not weak by any means and Jozu doesn't stomp him or anything but he certainly is his superior in strength.
 

Apêx1

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The 2nd division spot was empty before Ace even joined, so why wasn't Jozu just promoted to 2nd division commander?
Why would he change the rankings if the people he wanted as 2nd commander were already in the crew? Had Ace refused then you'd have a point, but besides that there's no reason for WB to promote Jozu when he sees Ace as a fit 2nd division commander.

Actually Fujitora used stronger attacks against Sabo than what Akainu or Kuzan used while fighting Ace.Besides he stared fighting seriously at the middle of the battle yet Sabo didn't receive any notable wounds Ace couldn't fare any better even if he wasn't at a disadvantage as even Marco was hopeless against Akainu. Sabo on the other hand fought an admiral for a decent amount of time and barely even received a wound.

If we go by portrayal they're equally strong with same ages when they were kids so we can assume that their growth rate is almost same. Pre TS Ace might be significantly stronger since he had MMnM which'd cause sudden rise in his strength but still Sabo takes cake in case of raw fighting skills,durability/endurance and speed because Ace like every other fruit user should have ignored to worry about those traits. Sabo should currently be much stronger than pre TS Ace now that has his fruit and two years of more training in raw skills. We have already witnessed how much of a change a period of two years can cause.

You're basically saying that imaginary post TS version of Ace needs to go as far as high dif to beat pre TS Ace which I believe doesn't make much sense given how much Luffy and others has changed over two year skip.

This scan says it all [ ]. Wounds on Sabo's face and he looks tired while Fuji is unscathed. And then you can also see Fuji's statement, he's only going to start trying from that point on, meaning he was shitting on Sabo without trying. And Marco's DF did just fine against Akainu's, not sure what you're reading here. Ace was entirely weak to the magma since it just went through Ace's fire. When he went up against an equal DF like Ice, he was on par with Kuzan, who mind you is also an admiral on par with Akainu and most likely stronger then Fujitora. And Sabo does seem to have like 4 wounds despite being a logia, so he'd have had to take a few direct Haki hits since imbuing gravity with Haki won't damage Sabo in the first place. Thus Fuji's DF is at a disadvantage strong vs Haki users.

And then you remember I never said Ace beats Sabo, I said Sabo wins high diff. Also, Ace was fighting Sabo on par without is fruit. Ace hasn't had his DF for more then 5 or 6 years, he was fighting with Sabo long before that though. Ace had equal or better potential, given he was the son of the PK and had CoC since he was like 10. Also, Sabo having had his fruit for a few days does not indicate mastery. Ac having it for years does indicate mastery. There's a huge gap in strength in terms of DF, both having the same DF doesn't mean they're equals with it. Luffy and Zoro had this huge progression because they were training for 2 years straight. Sabo does not train for 2 years, he's either sitting on his ass or killing pirates with 1 hit kills. That's experience, not really training.

1.Which is why I'm going by feats and portrayal. Not to mention that's not how it works. If you have a feat which is inferior to someone else you most likely are below them.

2.Do you know Burgess is the first division commander of the Blackbeard Pirates? Do you honestly think Burgess is Blackbeards strongest subordinate. This fact alone renders the whole commander number point obsolete, I mean if we didn't have feats and portrayal to back what I say up you would have more of a point, but Jozu clearly had a better showing.

3. Ace got the spot which was open, nothing more nothing less, he was strong enough to be a commander so he replaced the open spot

4.Since when could Ace fly? Maybe he can glide around for a bit but full out flying? I don't think so. Going by this he should have just done that against Blackbeard instead of taking him head on.

Ace is not weak by any means and Jozu doesn't stomp him or anything but he certainly is his superior in strength.
Not sure what feat you are referring to here then.

When exactly did I say this rule applies to every crew? I'd love you to quote me on that. Because last I checked I'm only making this claim off of WB pirates BECAUSE of the correlation between commander of division 1 to commander of division 6. Marco>Jozu>Vista>Blamenco. Then we have the 4th commander having been Thatch, and with his Yami Yami, I presume he was stronger then the ones thereafter. It's CLEARLY in order of strength, there's no outlier between the higher division commanders. BB pirates having a different order=/=WB pirates having a different order.

Baseless speculation.

He can propel himself with the fire in a similar way to what Smoker does. It's not limited so he could just continuously do this and there's nothing that's stopping him. And wouldn't have done shit to BB, he can just use the black hole to send him back to the ground, no?

Agreed that Ace isn't weak, strength wise Jozu is stronger because Jozu's strength is above anyone's in WB pirates. In general Ace should be stronger though just because of his division number. And what's so far fetched when I say Ace's Dai Enkai Entei would inflict severe burns on Jozu? Especially when small amounts of flame from his firefly light inflicted burns on the likes of BB, who could survive WB's direct Gura Gura punch and Sengoku's Buddha shockwaves.
 

Uzumaki Macho

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Why would he change the rankings if the people he wanted as 2nd commander were already in the crew? Had Ace refused then you'd have a point, but besides that there's no reason for WB to promote Jozu when he sees Ace as a fit 2nd division commander.



This scan says it all [ ]. Wounds on Sabo's face and he looks tired while Fuji is unscathed. And then you can also see Fuji's statement, he's only going to start trying from that point on, meaning he was shitting on Sabo without trying. And Marco's DF did just fine against Akainu's, not sure what you're reading here. Ace was entirely weak to the magma since it just went through Ace's fire. When he went up against an equal DF like Ice, he was on par with Kuzan, who mind you is also an admiral on par with Akainu and most likely stronger then Fujitora. And Sabo does seem to have like 4 wounds despite being a logia, so he'd have had to take a few direct Haki hits since imbuing gravity with Haki won't damage Sabo in the first place. Thus Fuji's DF is at a disadvantage strong vs Haki users.

And then you remember I never said Ace beats Sabo, I said Sabo wins high diff. Also, Ace was fighting Sabo on par without is fruit. Ace hasn't had his DF for more then 5 or 6 years, he was fighting with Sabo long before that though. Ace had equal or better potential, given he was the son of the PK and had CoC since he was like 10. Also, Sabo having had his fruit for a few days does not indicate mastery. Ac having it for years does indicate mastery. There's a huge gap in strength in terms of DF, both having the same DF doesn't mean they're equals with it. Luffy and Zoro had this huge progression because they were training for 2 years straight. Sabo does not train for 2 years, he's either sitting on his ass or killing pirates with 1 hit kills. That's experience, not really training.



Not sure what feat you are referring to here then.

When exactly did I say this rule applies to every crew? I'd love you to quote me on that. Because last I checked I'm only making this claim off of WB pirates BECAUSE of the correlation between commander of division 1 to commander of division 6. Marco>Jozu>Vista>Blamenco. Then we have the 4th commander having been Thatch, and with his Yami Yami, I presume he was stronger then the ones thereafter. It's CLEARLY in order of strength, there's no outlier between the higher division commanders. BB pirates having a different order=/=WB pirates having a different order.

Baseless speculation.

He can propel himself with the fire in a similar way to what Smoker does. It's not limited so he could just continuously do this and there's nothing that's stopping him. And wouldn't have done shit to BB, he can just use the black hole to send him back to the ground, no?

Agreed that Ace isn't weak, strength wise Jozu is stronger because Jozu's strength is above anyone's in WB pirates. In general Ace should be stronger though just because of his division number. And what's so far fetched when I say Ace's Dai Enkai Entei would inflict severe burns on Jozu? Especially when small amounts of flame from his firefly light inflicted burns on the likes of BB, who could survive WB's direct Gura Gura punch and Sengoku's Buddha shockwaves.
The 2nd division commander spot was empty before Ace was even a part of the WB Pirates.
 

Apêx1

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The 2nd division commander spot was empty before Ace was even a part of the WB Pirates.
Yet we don't know the time period regarding the former 2nd division's leave. Unless you are suggesting WB is supposed to instantly adjust the rankings. If anything he had more then enough time to change it AFTER picking Ace had Jozu been stronger.
 

Punk Hazard

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Sabo mid diffs
Dragon is weaker then Ace by feats, doesn't mean shit though. Feats in OP verse are almost irrelevant compared to portrayal atm.
Power scale outweighs Dragon's lack of on screen feats though, so that's not the best example to use.

Edit: Nah wait you right, portrayal and power scale are virtually the same.
 
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Apêx1

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Would Ace even be able to hurt Sabo? Both are a fire logia, so Ace's DF wouldn't have any effect on Sabo.
So you're saying his Dai Enkai Entei has the same temperature as his body's Logia immunity Fire? Would make no sense. Given it doesn't make sense, we can say that Dai Enkai Entei would in fact inflict severe burns since regular Fire can be burned by higher temperatures. Akainu should've made this clear for you.
 

Uzumaki Macho

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So you're saying his Dai Enkai Entei has the same temperature as his body's Logia immunity Fire? Would make no sense. Given it doesn't make sense, we can say that Dai Enkai Entei would in fact inflict severe burns since regular Fire can be burned by higher temperatures. Akainu should've made this clear for you.
How do you know that Dai Entei Enkai is hotter than Ace's regular fire and that Ace's fire is hotter than Sabo's?
 

Punk Hazard

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So you're saying his Dai Enkai Entei has the same temperature as his body's Logia immunity Fire? Would make no sense. Given it doesn't make sense, we can say that Dai Enkai Entei would in fact inflict severe burns since regular Fire can be burned by higher temperatures. Akainu should've made this clear for you.
Akainu hurt Ace because magma can smother fire and put it out. Temperatures of most magmas are in the range 700 °. C to 1300 °C. A candle flame can reach 1400 degrees C.

Also, why would the flames they turn into be less hot than the flames they create? It's all the same flames from the same fruit.
 

Apêx1

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Akainu hurt Ace because magma can smother fire and put it out. Temperatures of most magmas are in the range 700 °. C to 1300 °C. A candle flame can reach 1400 degrees C.

Also, why would the flames they turn into be less hot than the flames they create? It's all the same flames from the same fruit.
Not sure why you are applying real life logic to OP. Pretty sure Akainu already said he burned the fire [ ]. Anyways, if you still want to believe consuming fire means something else, look at it this way. Kuzan's Ice was equal to Ace's Fire. Kuzan's massive Ice block was melted by Akainu's small Magma fist almost instantly. Magma is far hotter then Fire in OP verse.

When Burgess hit Sabo he didn't seem to burn at all [ ]. Also, more flame should equate to more heat, and less heat loss at the centre of the attack. Thus the core of it should easily be capable of burning Sabo's Logia body. I'd also like to add, Enkai Entei's colors vary [ ]. It's darker on the outside and completely white on the inside. It could signify the core of the attack being white fire, which is much hotter then the regular fire Ace uses (pretty sure Oda has officially drawn fire as orange). Thus temperatures would vary.
 

Punk Hazard

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Not sure why you are applying real life logic to OP. Pretty sure Akainu already said he burned the fire [ ]. Anyways, if you still want to believe consuming fire means something else, look at it this way. Kuzan's Ice was equal to Ace's Fire. Kuzan's massive Ice block was melted by Akainu's small Magma fist almost instantly. Magma is far hotter then Fire in OP verse.

When Burgess hit Sabo he didn't seem to burn at all [ ]. Also, more flame should equate to more heat, and less heat loss at the centre of the attack. Thus the core of it should easily be capable of burning Sabo's Logia body. I'd also like to add, Enkai Entei's colors vary [ ]. It's darker on the outside and completely white on the inside. It could signify the core of the attack being white fire, which is much hotter then the regular fire Ace uses (pretty sure Oda has officially drawn fire as orange). Thus temperatures would vary.
He actually said magma consumes fire
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This fits into magma burning Ace because magma smothers fire. Akainu didn't literally burn the fire, the magma consumed fire, nullifying Ace's fruit ability, and allowing Akainu to strike his flesh. The same way Luffy could strike Enel's flesh because rubber nullifies lightning. It had nothing to do with temperature.
 

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He actually said magma consumes fire
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This fits into magma burning Ace because magma smothers fire. Akainu didn't literally burn the fire, the magma consumed fire, nullifying Ace's fruit ability, and allowing Akainu to strike his flesh. The same way Luffy could strike Enel's flesh because rubber nullifies lightning. It had nothing to do with temperature.
So you're saying I should use the translation you prefer instead of the translation I prefer? Even though your translation is up to interpretation (consume can mean a variety of things) while mine isn't? Also, it's a FACT that Akainu's magma is much hotter then Ace's Fire.
 

loj

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So you're saying I should use the translation you prefer instead of the translation I prefer? Even though your translation is up to interpretation (consume can mean a variety of things) while mine isn't? Also, it's a FACT that Akainu's magma is much hotter then Ace's Fire.
Im sure I read somewhere that Akainu's Magma is stronger than Ace's Fire
 
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