About rinnegan

super michael

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I wonder why don’t the writers make the Sharingan and Sage Mode a requirement to gain Rinnegan. I mean think about it Hagoromo didn’t need to gain someone dna or other eyes, yet he has Rinnegan.

The thing is he has done something that no dojutsu has ever done which is learn Sage Mode. Indra, Itachi, Obito, Madara, Uchiha clan, etc, hasn’t tried to learn Sage Mode. No Hyuga or Otsutsuki has learned Sage Mode.

Just imagine a clan full of Rinnegan, that would be overpowered. They have access to their Sharingan/Rinnengan powers.
 
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super michael

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Hag didn't have to get anyone else's DNA or eyes because he already had all of it. Everyone else had to do so because his dna and chakra fragmented over the generations.
But not even Indra and Ashura got Rinnegan, heck Ashura didn't get any dojutsu at all. The thing is we see Hagoromo mention and in filler unlock the Rinnegan.

We see Hagoromo learn Sage Mode, something that no dojutsu user does. That is why I think Sage Mode mastery might be the thing that helps evolves a dojutsu.
 

Silenqe

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I wonder why don’t the writers make the Sharingan and Sage Mode a requirement to gain Rinnegan. I mean think about it Hagoromo didn’t need to gain someone dna or other eyes, yet he has Rinnegan.

The thing he has done that no dojutsu has ever done is learn Sage Mode. Indra, Itachi, Obito, Madara, Uchiha clan, etc, haven’t tried to learn Sage Mode. No Hyuga or Otsutsuki has learned Sage Mode.

Just imagine a clan full of Rinnegan, that would be overpowered. They have access to their Sharingan/Rinnengan powers.
To get the Rinnegan you need both Indra and Ashura's DNA. Indra and Ashura's dad is Hagoromo, so Hagoromo already has the DNA needed to gain the Rinnegan. So he doesn't need anyone's DNA to gain the Rinnegan cuz he already has all the requirements.

The reason why we haven't seen any Dojutsu users except for Hagoromo use sage mode is that it won't make sense to the story. When Hagoromo met Naruto and Sasuke he gave Naruto the Six Path Sage Mode and Sasuke the Rinnegan, because of his sons which then Indra had the Sharingan and Ashura had the sage mode. Now if the writers of Boruto would see this resembles then it kinda confirms that Boruto gets the sage mode and Sarada gets the Rinnegan, although were the manga is headed I don't see this as being the case, plus the story was kinda set up so this wouldn't be possible anyway. Although it would have been kinda fun to see. But if that was the case then the Boruto series would be worse then it is right now which I simply can not comprehend.
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But not even Indra and Ashura got Rinnegan, heck Ashura didn't get any dojutsu at all. The thing is we see Hagoromo mention and in filler unlock the Rinnegan.

We see Hagoromo learn Sage Mode, something that no dojutsu user does. That is why I think Sage Mode mastery might be the thing that helps evolves a dojutsu.
Of course, they didn't get the Rinnegan? :ROFLMAO: You need the DNA of Ashura and Indra which they did not have. Yes, Ashura didn't get any Dojutsu, but that was the point. He got the sage mode instead. I already made a post replying to the original thread which I highly encourage you to read and hopefully, you will understand the situation better.
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But not even Indra and Ashura got Rinnegan, heck Ashura didn't get any dojutsu at all. The thing is we see Hagoromo mention and in filler unlock the Rinnegan.

We see Hagoromo learn Sage Mode, something that no dojutsu user does. That is why I think Sage Mode mastery might be the thing that helps evolves a dojutsu.
If sage mode is what helps a Dojutsu evolve, then explain how Sasuke, Madara, Obito and so on evolved their Sharingans.
 
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super michael

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So let see if this is right Kaguya has RinneSharingan, but since her DNA is split to her son that is why Hagoromo has Rinnegan and Hamura Byakugan and later on Tenseigan.

Hagoromo DNA is split into Indra and Ashura, which is why one has the Sharingan and the other has no dojutsu.

Sasuke used to have CM which is basically Senjutsu, Sasuke could use that with no problem at all. Jugo pump Sasuke full of Senjutsu to draw Zetsu out, yet there was no problem at all with Sasuke body. Jugo gave Sasuke Senjutsu chakra to his Susano, which Sasuke had no problem in using it. The point is Sasuke body can more than handle Sage Mode, but he doesn't learn it.

We see Obito and Madara can handle the Senjutsu chakra of the Juubi with no problem.
 

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So let see if this is right Kaguya has RinneSharingan, but since her DNA is split to her son that is why Hagoromo has Rinnegan and Hamura Byakugan and later on Tenseigan.

Hagoromo DNA is split into Indra and Ashura, which is why one has the Sharingan and the other has no dojutsu.

Sasuke used to have CM which is basically Senjutsu, Sasuke could use that with no problem at all. Jugo pump Sasuke full of Senjutsu to draw Zetsu out, yet there was no problem at all with Sasuke body. Jugo gave Sasuke Senjutsu chakra to his Susano, which Sasuke had no problem in using it. The point is Sasuke body can more than handle Sage Mode, but he doesn't learn it.

We see Obito and Madara can handle the Senjutsu chakra of the Juubi with no problem.
yea. the divide between uchiha and senju used to be thought as the difference between body and mind, but it's pretty clear the fact is false. neither clan is lacking in any regard. uchihas have steel bodies alongside large chakra reserves, and senjus have ridiculous proficiency with jutsus. blame kishimoto for the inconsistency. Obito and Madara are outliers though because they had Hashirama's dna running though them.
 

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So let see if this is right Kaguya has RinneSharingan, but since her DNA is split to her son that is why Hagoromo has Rinnegan and Hamura Byakugan and later on Tenseigan.

Hagoromo DNA is split into Indra and Ashura, which is why one has the Sharingan and the other has no dojutsu.

Sasuke used to have CM which is basically Senjutsu, Sasuke could use that with no problem at all. Jugo pump Sasuke full of Senjutsu to draw Zetsu out, yet there was no problem at all with Sasuke body. Jugo gave Sasuke Senjutsu chakra to his Susano, which Sasuke had no problem in using it. The point is Sasuke body can more than handle Sage Mode, but he doesn't learn it.

We see Obito and Madara can handle the Senjutsu chakra of the Juubi with no problem.
Indra got the Sharingan which then later evolved into the Mangekyo Sharingan and Ashura later on learned sage mode. If Senjutsu is needed to evolve the Sharingan then explain how Indra evolved his Sharingan into a Mangekyo Sharingan.

Sasuke didn't learn sage mode, he was forced to get it a.k.a the CM and his body was used to having Senjutsu so it was no problem for him later on.

The Juubi become a part of them so again no problem for them, plus they also had Hashirama cells which were why Madara and Obito got their Rinnegans in the first place.

What about all the other people who have had the Mangekyo Sharingan? How would you explain their MS? It was even stated that to get the Rinnegan you need the DNA of Indra and Ashura and of course the Sharingan and that is what we have seen so far, but if Senjutsu is needed to gain the Rinnegan and the MS then there are so many questions that are still unanswered and that wouldn't make any sense.
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yea. the divide between uchiha and senju used to be thought as the difference between body and mind, but it's pretty clear the fact is false. neither clan is lacking in any regard. uchihas have steel bodies alongside large chakra reserves, and senjus have ridiculous proficiency with jutsus. blame kishimoto for the inconsistency. Obito and Madara are outliers though because they had Hashirama's dna running though them.
Can I ask for what inconsistencies you are talking about again?
 

Rikudou Tobi

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He didn’t need to transplant other people’s dna to get six path chakra because he’s already born with one.
as for having the rinnegan, that part is a rarity. Not everyone can get it and black Zetsu said he tried throughout the descendants of Indra and only Madara succeeded.
 

salamander uchiha

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He didn’t need to transplant other people’s dna to get six path chakra because he’s already born with one.
as for having the rinnegan, that part is a rarity. Not everyone can get it and black Zetsu said he tried throughout the descendants of Indra and only Madara succeeded.
Tobi, somebody's erring here, lol.

BZ said he approached incarnates of both (Indra and Asura) but only Madara succeeded.
 

wanderingcactus

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I mean think about it Hagoromo didn’t need to gain someone dna or other eyes, yet he has Rinnegan

[Kaguya] Yang = Byakugan/Tenseigan and Chakra Mode - weapon or cloak
[Jigen] Yin = Sharingan/Rinnegan and Sage Mode - tattoo

Yin has the chakra residing in the brain which is reflected in their eyes.
Yang has the chakra pooled in the heart and is reflected by being engulfed by either tattoos or chakra.

Kaguya [Yin-Yang] gave her a mature doujutsu on top of her fully matured "chakra" Mode.

*Please note: we never seen these abilities because Kishi has not thought of them OR was hiding the events in The Last and Boruto The Movie, so we only see the base So6P abilities that we saw from Obito, not even Madara's level.
So this is merely speculation but it is heavily hinted that this is the case as this is what we had seen with Momoshiki and Kinshiki. As well as Toneri's requirements to his So6P (Yang edition).

Kaguya, as well as Momoshiki, were the only 2 that we know who had attained full convergence of Yin and Yang. Kaguya being Yang first and Momoshiki being Yin first.

However, for Hagoromo as well as Hamura, they did not need to have these requirements as their DNA is pure AF.

They did not gain the full Yin-Yang abilities from the start.

Hagoromo eventually did gain SM (his mark on his forehead, similar with Hashirama's forehead Sage Mode, which is further backed by Tsunade's Yin Seal on her forehead. SO NO, IT IS NOT HAGOROMO'S RINNE SHARINGAN THAT IS SEALED)

Hamura also gained his Tenseigan eventually as shown in The Last.

These matured on their own as the powers that they gained from their mother is within their affinity instead of being opposite of their affinity.

10tails being chakra (Yin) went to Hagoromo (Yin).
Gedo Statue being vessel (Yang) went to Hamura (Yang).

Knowing the affinities' characteristics, Hagoromo gained his Rinnegan and SM from the very start while Hamura gained them [Tenseigan and CM] at a later time.

The thing is he has done something that no dojutsu has ever done which is learn Sage Mode. Indra, Itachi, Obito, Madara, Uchiha clan, etc, hasn’t tried to learn Sage Mode. No Hyuga or Otsutsuki has learned Sage Mode.

Just imagine a clan full of Rinnegan, that would be overpowered. They have access to their Sharingan/Rinnengan powers.

Madara and Obito did not need to learn SM due to Hashirama's cell. They met the requirements of having SM and doujutsu.

"Why didn't Sasuke naturally gain Rinnegan?" His SM was from a curse seal. I doubt he really trained Sage Mode. If his is legitemate, then IDK. Perhaps it is not strong enough?

"Why didn't Obito naturally gain Rinnegan?" Because his MS is not EMS, unlike Madara.

Hyuga with Sage Mode would do nothing but boost their physical traits.

Remember, Hyuga is Hamura's route. His route consists of Chakra Mode and Byakugan. So gaining Tenseigan wouldn't work if a Hyuga practiced Sage Mode.

Also we do not know whether or not THE Sage Mode can be taught or whether it is inherited. If we use the Hamura route, we can assess that the Chakra Mode can be inherited as seen with the Uzumakis.

Perhaps that is one of the reasons why Sasuke could not naturally get his Rinnegan. It could also be based on maturity. It is possible that it might take some time for it to mature.

"But how come Toneri's Tenseigan matured in mere days?"
DUDE, IDK? Bad storytelling is consistent with Kishi. Just like how Kaguya was lame and didn't exhibit new abilities. Just teleported everyone in different realms.


Anyways, it seems the theme is consistent with Part 2: Yin and Yang. Yin being represented by the Mind and Yang, the Body.

Yin = skill through talent, Yang = skill through practice.
Yin = fast maturity, peak performance, Yang = slow maturity, almost no limit.

Symbolisms:

Mind = Kakashi, Body = Might Guy
Mind = 10tails, Body = Gedo Statue.
Mind = Rinnegan/Tenseigan, Body = Sage Mode/Chakra Mode
Mind = Susanoo, Body = Avatar

Senju' seals are found in the forehead or the brain.
Naruto's seal is found on his stomach or the body.
8th gate is on the heart
RinneSharingan is on the forehead.


I believe that in order to unlock doujutsu or mode, you have to get it from a strong lineage.
Which begs to question: Did Hashirama actually get the God Tree Sage Mode from his lineage or was it taught to him by chance?
 
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Rinnegan is the eyes of Haga, SM is the body, at their ultimate form.

You need both his eye power (Uchiha) and body power (Senju) to reach the top level of each. Which one you get depends on your inherent inclination (Senju and such clans get body powers, Uchiha and co get eye powers)
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was it taught to him by chance?
Wiki has it that Hagaromo himself learned something from the snake sage, so clearly beasts interact with ninja.
 

wanderingcactus

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Wiki has it that Hagaromo himself learned something from the snake sage, so clearly beasts interact with ninja.
I mean it makes sense that Beast Sages are a thing which predates So6P. Perhaps would even predate Kaguya.
It wouldn't be farfetched that Hagoromo would learn Sage Mode through a Sage since he is more of an occular affinity anyways.

What I meant by this is whether or not HASHIRAMA learned the Godtree Sage Mode by chance or is it because of his lineage.

You know, like do you get Jougan/Mangekyu because of your lineage or because you had the required parameters such as murdering your loved ones. (it is likely that Jougan is lineage that requires potent hyuga chakra compared to sharingan that just requires a lot of chakra concentrated to your brain).

Or rather, can you become So6P by harvesting the eyes and body of Uchiha and Senju or Hyuga and Uzumaki OR do you have to be a chosen one whose tied to those clans in the beginning?
 

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I mean it makes sense that Beast Sages are a thing which predates So6P. Perhaps would even predate Kaguya.
It wouldn't be farfetched that Hagoromo would learn Sage Mode through a Sage since he is more of an occular affinity anyways.

What I meant by this is whether or not HASHIRAMA learned the Godtree Sage Mode by chance or is it because of his lineage.

You know, like do you get Jougan/Mangekyu because of your lineage or because you had the required parameters such as murdering your loved ones. (it is likely that Jougan is lineage that requires potent hyuga chakra compared to sharingan that just requires a lot of chakra concentrated to your brain).

Or rather, can you become So6P by harvesting the eyes and body of Uchiha and Senju or Hyuga and Uzumaki OR do you have to be a chosen one whose tied to those clans in the beginning?
Eye powers are more tied to lineage, sage modes havemore to do with training.

Since their affinities . . .

I think Hashi may well have taught himself since it only enhances his own abilities (Deity Gates are Mokuton, thematically) instead of granting any new, animal themed abilities. On top of this, his mokuton is a life based element, so his connection to life forces is strong enough that he may have detected and mastered NE himself.

Got nothing more rigid than that, unfortunately
 

wanderingcactus

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Eye powers are more tied to lineage, sage modes havemore to do with training.

Since their affinities . . .

I think Hashi may well have taught himself since it only enhances his own abilities (Deity Gates are Mokuton, thematically) instead of granting any new, animal themed abilities. On top of this, his mokuton is a life based element, so his connection to life forces is strong enough that he may have detected and mastered NE himself.

Got nothing more rigid than that, unfortunately

Well didn't he train in the God Forest? So we aren't really sure whether the techniques he had were unique to him/clan or whether he was taught by the forest. This is just my hypothesis because of Yamato having an affinity to wood from Hashirama's DNA. It means that the affinity can be passed on by chakra/blood/DNA rather than taught.

Of course, Tsunade never gained that ability so it is possible that the sage chakra was just embedded to his DNA at that point (but he couldn't pass it on to his offsprings?).


The way I see it is that Hagoromo had the Mind (eyes) so it is possible that the Sage Mode came from the outside (taught or through training rather than inherited).
Whereas Hamura and his lineage had the body (chakra weapons and cloaks) and the byakugan never really manifested any further or had any more abilities other than seeing really well.

I feel like this should be addressed soon. I'd hate it to be like some afterthought especially since the manga focuses more on the extraterrestrials.

The only things that we know is that Momoshiki gained Sage Mode (those tattoo markings) after he ate Kinshiki (body). As for Kaguya, she never really gained them (quite possibly because she was the body and not the mind). So she SHOULD have gained the eyes (on top of the 3rd eye).

This will forever be only assumptions as anything in regards to Kaguya are very basics and previously known. We won't see her fight revised to include Tenseigan, chakra armaments or armour or cloaks.

Heck, we never even get to see her use the TSO as weapons.. Just those chakra rods and transdimensional portals.
There's no limbo, no ameno, no new abilities at all. Just Part 1 bones and air palms.

So any congruent conclusion about the Mind being Rinnegan and Sage Mode and Body being Tenseigan and Chakra Mode can only be derived from what we learned from Momoshiki and Toneri.

I am aware of Urashiki and Isshiki's existence maybe shedding more light into the matter as well as the missing partner of Urashiki but I doubt that we will get to know that any time soon. I guesstimate it not be addressed for a few years from now since we do about 12 chapters per year. The pace is slow as well (which is good as the fight scenes are more developed).
 

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Well didn't he train in the God Forest? So we aren't really sure whether the techniques he had were unique to him/clan or whether he was taught by the forest. This is just my hypothesis because of Yamato having an affinity to wood from Hashirama's DNA. It means that the affinity can be passed on by chakra/blood/DNA rather than taught.

Of course, Tsunade never gained that ability so it is possible that the sage chakra was just embedded to his DNA at that point (but he couldn't pass it on to his offsprings?).


The way I see it is that Hagoromo had the Mind (eyes) so it is possible that the Sage Mode came from the outside (taught or through training rather than inherited).
Whereas Hamura and his lineage had the body (chakra weapons and cloaks) and the byakugan never really manifested any further or had any more abilities other than seeing really well.

I feel like this should be addressed soon. I'd hate it to be like some afterthought especially since the manga focuses more on the extraterrestrials.

The only things that we know is that Momoshiki gained Sage Mode (those tattoo markings) after he ate Kinshiki (body). As for Kaguya, she never really gained them (quite possibly because she was the body and not the mind). So she SHOULD have gained the eyes (on top of the 3rd eye).

This will forever be only assumptions as anything in regards to Kaguya are very basics and previously known. We won't see her fight revised to include Tenseigan, chakra armaments or armour or cloaks.

Heck, we never even get to see her use the TSO as weapons.. Just those chakra rods and transdimensional portals.
There's no limbo, no ameno, no new abilities at all. Just Part 1 bones and air palms.

So any congruent conclusion about the Mind being Rinnegan and Sage Mode and Body being Tenseigan and Chakra Mode can only be derived from what we learned from Momoshiki and Toneri.

I am aware of Urashiki and Isshiki's existence maybe shedding more light into the matter as well as the missing partner of Urashiki but I doubt that we will get to know that any time soon. I guesstimate it not be addressed for a few years from now since we do about 12 chapters per year. The pace is slow as well (which is good as the fight scenes are more developed).
Dunno anythng about where Hashi trained. But Mokuton is natural to him.
Of course the body powers are passed down, hence the Senju clan. However, his mokuton isn't. That is the consequence of him being a transmigrant, having superior life energy. That's why they inject themselves, because only his cells contain those powers.

Sage Mode itself is an ability not a trait. Its like any named jutsu. Anyone has the potential to learn it, but some are more likely to succeed because of their inherent traits (element, chakra control etc) than others. The fact that your cells tend to access superior energy (NE) will make them evolve to work it better, and this will be passed down in your bloodline. However, tye actual ability isn't passed down just like any particular jutsu, like Water Bullet, doesn't get passes down genetically.

Not sure what to make of the division between Hagaromo and Hamura, but it seems to only go as far as eyes. Keep in mind Hagaromo had to do a lot of study and travel to master his powers, so the difference in descendants probably comes from that. Ahh yes, he was a Juubi Jin. That's where his superior body would have come from. All Otsutsuki have superior bodies, but Hagaromo would have gained superb life force boosts from the Juubi mixing with his chakra over the years.
Otherwise, Hyuga don't have body, only eyes. They then choose to study vaeious techniques around the eyes. Its like if Tobirama would use water molecules to sense in the air: it wouldn't prove he has some mental affinity, but rather that he chose to use his powers in a specific way.

What Momo had was a Chakra Mode, like KCM but with Kinshiki instead. The lines are signs of compressed chakra. Basically cells evolved to process superior chakra. SM gives the same becuase NE is potent. Likewise Konshiki would have potent chakra for Momo to process.

Yeah, my biggest wish is for a Naruto continuation that actually goes back to explain various issues such as how these thngs work, the origins of the many tools (sage tools, totsuka, kusanagi, seven swords etc). Also to expand on lives of past heros like Kakuzu, Kinkaku Kurenai and such.
 

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Dunno anythng about where Hashi trained. But Mokuton is natural to him.
Of course the body powers are passed down, hence the Senju clan. However, his mokuton isn't. That is the consequence of him being a transmigrant, having superior life energy. That's why they inject themselves, because only his cells contain those powers.

Sage Mode itself is an ability not a trait. Its like any named jutsu. Anyone has the potential to learn it, but some are more likely to succeed because of their inherent traits (element, chakra control etc) than others. The fact that your cells tend to access superior energy (NE) will make them evolve to work it better, and this will be passed down in your bloodline. However, tye actual ability isn't passed down just like any particular jutsu, like Water Bullet, doesn't get passes down genetically.

Not sure what to make of the division between Hagaromo and Hamura, but it seems to only go as far as eyes. Keep in mind Hagaromo had to do a lot of study and travel to master his powers, so the difference in descendants probably comes from that. Ahh yes, he was a Juubi Jin. That's where his superior body would have come from. All Otsutsuki have superior bodies, but Hagaromo would have gained superb life force boosts from the Juubi mixing with his chakra over the years.
Otherwise, Hyuga don't have body, only eyes. They then choose to study vaeious techniques around the eyes. Its like if Tobirama would use water molecules to sense in the air: it wouldn't prove he has some mental affinity, but rather that he chose to use his powers in a specific way.

What Momo had was a Chakra Mode, like KCM but with Kinshiki instead. The lines are signs of compressed chakra. Basically cells evolved to process superior chakra. SM gives the same becuase NE is potent. Likewise Konshiki would have potent chakra for Momo to process.

Yeah, my biggest wish is for a Naruto continuation that actually goes back to explain various issues such as how these thngs work, the origins of the many tools (sage tools, totsuka, kusanagi, seven swords etc). Also to expand on lives of past heros like Kakuzu, Kinkaku Kurenai and such.
I doubt that Mokuton is a transmigrant thing as Asura nor any other transmigrants were mokuton users (well, strictly speaking Naruto). It is also said that Hashirama went under Sage Mode training under the sacred forest so this is why it is unsure if it is surely from his lineage (this counts the transmigrant thing as well) or it is simply because he found the sacred grove.

As for SM, yes, SM is basically taking in outside chakra (not within yourself but of nature's). However, I was talking about Sage Mode that came about on Momoshiki. His tattoos showed up upon taking in Kinshiki (body). Hashirama's power seem to be SM as well. As well as Hagoromo having that Yin mark on his forehead that looked like a RinneSharingan.

2 Otsutsuki has special SM while the transmigrant has SM and no other powers. I believe that the mokuton was from that same SM. Asura seem to have both CM and SM like Naruto and Mistuki but Hashirama only has SM and Momoshiki only has SM despite Kinshiki having CM, his weapons count as chakra mode like the Uzumaki chakra chains.


Hagoromo and Hamura seem to be Mind and Body. My hypothesis is this:

Hagoromo = Rinnegan (eyes) + Sage Mode (chakra)
the former manifesting first.
Hamura = Tenseigan (eyes) + Chakra Mode (chakra)
the latter manifesting first.

I believe that Hagoromo's lineage have their own SM and would not need to learn it from a Sage Beast. This is my guess for Hashirama and how he naturally just have wood release for his SM (something very rare to have). If he was taught, I doubt that he would be the only one that can use wood release then nor will he be the only one that can be taught the SM.

Why I believe that SM is also part of the Otsutsuki is Momoshiki's transformation. Being on the Yin path (eyes), he would take Hagoromo's side of having Rinnegan and SM rather than CM like Kinshiki.

Being the Juubi Jin does not matter however as we know that the 10tails is nothing more than chakra. I believe the Yang Seal that he has gave him the ability to house the 10tails as we know that Hamura is the Body of the twin and he is the Mind.

In terms of symbolism:
Hagoromo is the Yin with Yang while Hamura is Yang with Yin.

The tailed beasts are chakra. The Gedo Statue, the vessel for that chakra. I suppose that the Yang Seal is the thing that made it possible for Hagoromo to become a JJ. The vessel, Kaguya's body, was given to Hamura.

We know that Hagoromo is Yin because of the Rinnegan and the Yang seal and Hamura is Yang because of the late bloom and the Yin seal.

I believe that they parted their mother this way so that they do not ascend to her level as they need the opposite rather than the similar (being Hamura getting the chakra and Hagoromo getting the vessel).

In regards for final stage Momoshiki, I do believe that he has everything: Rinnegan, Tenseigan, SM and CM. But much like what happened with Kaguya, we don't ever see anything noteworthy. He neither had TSO (this could be a Kaguya and her children trait), nor did he use ameno, limbo or something special that he should have gained. Perhaps his double Rinnegan + Byakugan were his special trait?

Yeah, I really wish they actually bring back the god tools. The ninja tool seem so OP that it rivals Momoshiki's Rinnegan. I think that it should only be used by the Samurai people.
 
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Infant

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I doubt that Mokuton is a transmigrant thing as Asura nor any other transmigrants were mokuton users (well, strictly speaking Naruto). It is also said that Hashirama went under Sage Mode training under the sacred forest so this is why it is unsure if it is surely from his lineage (this counts the transmigrant thing as well) or it is simply because he found the sacred grove.

As for SM, yes, SM is basically taking in outside chakra (not within yourself but of nature's). However, I was talking about Sage Mode that came about on Momoshiki. His tattoos showed up upon taking in Kinshiki (body). Hashirama's power seem to be SM as well. As well as Hagoromo having that Yin mark on his forehead that looked like a RinneSharingan.

2 Otsutsuki has special SM while the transmigrant has SM and no other powers. I believe that the mokuton was from that same SM. Asura seem to have both CM and SM like Naruto and Mistuki but Hashirama only has SM and Momoshiki only has SM despite Kinshiki having CM, his weapons count as chakra mode like the Uzumaki chakra chains.


Hagoromo and Hamura seem to be Mind and Body. My hypothesis is this:

Hagoromo = Rinnegan (eyes) + Sage Mode (chakra)
the former manifesting first.
Hamura = Tenseigan (eyes) + Chakra Mode (chakra)
the latter manifesting first.

I believe that Hagoromo's lineage have their own SM and would not need to learn it from a Sage Beast. This is my guess for Hashirama and how he naturally just have wood release for his SM (something very rare to have). If he was taught, I doubt that he would be the only one that can use wood release then nor will he be the only one that can be taught the SM.

Why I believe that SM is also part of the Otsutsuki is Momoshiki's transformation. Being on the Yin path (eyes), he would take Hagoromo's side of having Rinnegan and SM rather than CM like Kinshiki.

Being the Juubi Jin does not matter however as we know that the 10tails is nothing more than chakra. I believe the Yang Seal that he has gave him the ability to house the 10tails as we know that Hamura is the Body of the twin and he is the Mind.

In terms of symbolism:
Hagoromo is the Yin with Yang while Hamura is Yang with Yin.

The tailed beasts are chakra. The Gedo Statue, the vessel for that chakra. I suppose that the Yang Seal is the thing that made it possible for Hagoromo to become a JJ. The vessel, Kaguya's body, was given to Hamura.

We know that Hagoromo is Yin because of the Rinnegan and the Yang seal and Hamura is Yang because of the late bloom and the Yin seal.

I believe that they parted their mother this way so that they do not ascend to her level as they need the opposite rather than the similar (being Hamura getting the chakra and Hagoromo getting the vessel).

In regards for final stage Momoshiki, I do believe that he has everything: Rinnegan, Tenseigan, SM and CM. But much like what happened with Kaguya, we don't ever see anything noteworthy. He neither had TSO (this could be a Kaguya and her children trait), nor did he use ameno, limbo or something special that he should have gained. Perhaps his double Rinnegan + Byakugan were his special trait?

Yeah, I really wish they actually bring back the god tools. The ninja tool seem so OP that it rivals Momoshiki's Rinnegan. I think that it should only be used by the Samurai people.
Naruto doesn't have the necessary elements, on top of which Kurama wrecked his chakra control as a kid.
If Hashi went to the forest for SM, that puts it after he had mokuton. On top of which it seems.that the forest is mainly a place with friendly portions of NE.

Technically, Momo had a chakra mode, not SM. SM is for NE usage, chakra mode is for sourcing chakra from another entity/being, oneself included.
The lines/markings are proof that he processed chakra of greator quality than what his cells are used to. Essentially, it the cells adapting to increase their chakra processing potential.

I agree on Kinshiki using chakra to make his weapons, but I don't get why Sasuke wouldn't just absorb them with Preta Path. Maybe they're pure Yin or pure Yang energy, not chakra.

Hyuga are born with Byakugan while Uchiha have to unlock their eyes, so in that sense they have eyes even more than Uchiha.

Its possible the mind and body only happens with Hagaromo descendants because of the blood feud. Wasn't it explained thusly?
It would then make sense why Hamura didn't have any split powers in his descendants.
Also keep in mind Hagaromo learned a lot, causing his powers to evolve. That's why he's got body powers as well, coz he studied SM.and was JJ, causing his physical cells to evolve to to manage such powers.

Hagaromo himself learned SM from a Beast, so . . .
Also, by definition no one can be born with SM because it is related to external chakra. This applies especially to Otsutsuki because they planet hop, so aligning with different energy on every planet would be troublesome at best.

The body evolves to the energy it . So having superior energy, in the form of chakra, flowing through the body makes it evolve. Its why Naruto had higher stats after achieving SM than before, in base. Adult Naruto can punch craters in base despite being in the worst physical shape simply because his cells evolved from the superior energy he is always exposed to.

Hmm, from what I can tell, Otsutsuki have two lines of power: Rinnegan and Byakugan (Tenseigan)
Taking in external chakra (Preta) boosts the Rinnegan while improving internal power evolves the Byakugan into Tenseigan.
Since the Byakugan is based on internal power, it is the body. Makes sense why Hyuga can also do Full Body Blow, a channeling of internal energy. It gives affinity for CM since that is channeling of internal power.
Since the Rinnegan works with external power (all six paths are external powers), it gives affinity for SM (chaneling external energy).

Also, there are many dichotomies in nature, not just body and mind. Light and darkness, man and woman, soft and hard, internal and external and others still. So it's possible that the duo of Hamura and Hagaromo are not a mind vs body dichotomy, but a different one. If so, I think its external vs internal.

Your analysis on the energy and the husk of Ten Tails fits thusly.

As for.the ninja tools, 10|10 has them and no one seems to care. Could be a political ploy because Naruto and Sasuke won't always be around
 

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Naruto doesn't have the necessary elements, on top of which Kurama wrecked his chakra control as a kid.
If Hashi went to the forest for SM, that puts it after he had mokuton. On top of which it seems.that the forest is mainly a place with friendly portions of NE.

Technically, Momo had a chakra mode, not SM. SM is for NE usage, chakra mode is for sourcing chakra from another entity/being, oneself included.
The lines/markings are proof that he processed chakra of greator quality than what his cells are used to. Essentially, it the cells adapting to increase their chakra processing potential.
Were there definitive explanations? I don't really go into those databooks and my knowledge is a bit rusty since it has been a few years. I have always thought that Hashirama learned SM because of the forest but it was never clarified whether or not he had wood release prior to it.

The tattoos are a symbol of NE energy though. They mainly show up during SM. As we see it from Sasuke's Curse Mark, Naruto's SM, Hashirama's SM. Even Tsunade's 100 strength seal (although hers is internal chakra but it is still sealed in her Yin Seal). CM is pretty obvious. They just glow as seen with the Chakra Chains, Urashiki's fishing rod, Kinshiki's weapons, Minato's, Naruto's and Toneri's chakra cloak.

I am not convinced that Momoshiki's markings were CM. They look more SM than CM. It also complies to the split attribute of Yin and Yang, where he is Yin (rinnegan + SM), like Madara (rinnegan) and Hashirama (SM).

I don't get why Sasuke wouldn't just absorb them with Preta Path. Maybe they're pure Yin or pure Yang energy, not chakra.
I believe Ikemoto and Kishi may have had an agreement of not using the past techs as it will overshadow the main cast: Boruto, Sarada, Mitsuki, and co.

Unfortunate as it may sound, I do not think we will ever see Naruto and Sasuke in their So6P mode again. Plus, it seems as though they just use the "it was all in the seal in their palm" excuse as to why they cannot. Despite the fact that Sasuke got to keep his Rinnegan and abilities of said eye and the PS.

Hyuga are born with Byakugan while Uchiha have to unlock their eyes, so in that sense they have eyes even more than Uchiha.
Yes, I find it quite weird how the supposedly Yang part of the family (Hamura's lineage) already has Byakugan while the Yin (Hagoromo's) would have to nurture their Sharingan. It is the opposite of the trait that was mentioned where the older matures faster and has the master of the eye (mind). While the younger will take longer and will master the heart (body).

Its possible the mind and body only happens with Hagaromo descendants because of the blood feud. Wasn't it explained thusly?
It would then make sense why Hamura didn't have any split powers in his descendants.
Also keep in mind Hagaromo learned a lot, causing his powers to evolve. That's why he's got body powers as well, coz he studied SM.and was JJ, causing his physical cells to evolve to to manage such powers.
The Last movie explained that Hamura's descendants also had an on-going war much like Hagoromo's. They had a mind and body feud. Although the story is the opposite of the main story. The one with Uchiha killing off the branch (Senju) and gaining power and unlocking Rinnegan. The story was that the branch (Toneri's side) killing off the main family (Hyuga's ancestral family) and taking their eyes to unlock the Tenseigan.

I also have reason to believe that Hamura's branch family is the ancestral family of the Uzumaki. It is simply that Toneri and Naruto's abilties are too similar. Also the fact that it is said that the Senjus and Uzumakis are distant cousins which means that if Hagoromo's kids are Uchihas and Senjus, Hamura's kids would be their cousins, the Hyugas and Uzumakis.

That's just my headcanon though.

That aside, the main fam vs branch fam also happened to Hamura's side.

Hagaromo himself learned SM from a Beast, so . . .
Also, by definition no one can be born with SM because it is related to external chakra. This applies especially to Otsutsuki because they planet hop, so aligning with different energy on every planet would be troublesome at best.
Where did it say Hagoromo learned SM from a Sage Beast? Again, I rarely use the databook but surely, it must have popped in there.
SM being learned makes sense as Yin, the only thing that is naturally gained should be the eyes.

Otsutsuki, or the space vampires, may not need to learn SM as they just need to use Petra Path to take chakra and eat the pills or fruit.

Also, there are many dichotomies in nature, not just body and mind. Light and darkness, man and woman, soft and hard, internal and external and others still. So it's possible that the duo of Hamura and Hagaromo are not a mind vs body dichotomy, but a different one. If so, I think its external vs internal.
Yes, I think that too. Although I believe it is all of whatever Yin and Yang symbolizes.

Yin comes from outside of reality (imagination). It is Dark. It is the Mind. Death. Chakra. Anti-Matter, Space. Human (Perfect Susanoo) etc.
Yang comes from within the physical realm (reality). It is Light. It is the Body. Life. Force. Matter, Celestials. Nature (Kurama Form) etc.

Every one of these are in line with the feats of Hagoromo and Hamura.


As for.the ninja tools, 10|10 has them and no one seems to care. Could be a political ploy because Naruto and Sasuke won't always be around
Forgot10 I see.. Makes sense as Sasuke's and Naruto's powers are basically very basic now. I mean Mitsuki is just as powerful as Naruto when he faced Obito and Madara as he has SM + CM.

For the god items, even if they are shelved, I think they won't be useful anymore. I mean that ninja tool rivaled that of Momoshiki's Rinnegan.
the Land of Thunder also has a planetary plasma cannon that can blast the moon into smitherins. Something only Rinnegan and Tenseigan powers can do. So new tech > god weapons.
 

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Were there definitive explanations? I don't really go into those databooks and my knowledge is a bit rusty since it has been a few years. I have always thought that Hashirama learned SM because of the forest but it was never clarified whether or not he had wood release prior to it.

The tattoos are a symbol of NE energy though. They mainly show up during SM. As we see it from Sasuke's Curse Mark, Naruto's SM, Hashirama's SM. Even Tsunade's 100 strength seal (although hers is internal chakra but it is still sealed in her Yin Seal). CM is pretty obvious. They just glow as seen with the Chakra Chains, Urashiki's fishing rod, Kinshiki's weapons, Minato's, Naruto's and Toneri's chakra cloak.

I am not convinced that Momoshiki's markings were CM. They look more SM than CM. It also complies to the split attribute of Yin and Yang, where he is Yin (rinnegan + SM), like Madara (rinnegan) and Hashirama (SM).
I do think it is unwise to rely completely on Darabooks since they require interpretation (Temari can blow away the universe . . . ) and recognition of hyperbole (and so on) while being a translation fromca different language, civilization, culture and mentality.
Anyway, SM abilities only work in SM. Hashi can use mokuton in base form, so clearly not a SM ability or somesuch.

No, they're cells being forced to process stronger energy than normal, essentially hyper-evolving. Remember how the Otogakure Rakshasa team all evolved horns and such when using Curse Mark? Same thing, but more potent (and better chakra control so cells don't turn into crazy mutations)

So CM and SM can both produce markings. Markings, instead of crazy beastly look, show that the energy is being contained. Basically, energy even stronger than Curse Mark, but those mutations are now compressed . . . The cells will darken.
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I believe Ikemoto and Kishi may have had an agreement of not using the past techs as it will overshadow the main cast: Boruto, Sarada, Mitsuki, and co.

Unfortunate as it may sound, I do not think we will ever see Naruto and Sasuke in their So6P mode again. Plus, it seems as though they just use the "it was all in the seal in their palm" excuse as to why they cannot. Despite the fact that Sasuke got to keep his Rinnegan and abilities of said eye and the PS.
Makes sense, but the author (original) always made sure events could be explained within the manga even if he made decisions based on real life factorsn(like killing off stronger characters with weaker ones, he always gave excuses like sentiment for Itachi vs Sasuke, sickness for Kimimaro vs Gaara and downright stupidity for Deidara vs anyone)

But I totally get you
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Yes, I find it quite weird how the supposedly Yang part of the family (Hamura's lineage) already has Byakugan while the Yin (Hagoromo's) would have to nurture their Sharingan. It is the opposite of the trait that was mentioned where the older matures faster and has the master of the eye (mind). While the younger will take longer and will master the heart (body).

The Last movie explained that Hamura's descendants also had an on-going war much like Hagoromo's. They had a mind and body feud. Although the story is the opposite of the main story. The one with Uchiha killing off the branch (Senju) and gaining power and unlocking Rinnegan. The story was that the branch (Toneri's side) killing off the main family (Hyuga's ancestral family) and taking their eyes to unlock the Tenseigan.

I also have reason to believe that Hamura's branch family is the ancestral family of the Uzumaki. It is simply that Toneri and Naruto's abilties are too similar. Also the fact that it is said that the Senjus and Uzumakis are distant cousins which means that if Hagoromo's kids are Uchihas and Senjus, Hamura's kids would be their cousins, the Hyugas and Uzumakis.

That's just my headcanon though.

That aside, the main fam vs branch fam also happened to Hamura's
As long as the feud is nor ancestral (i.e. undying spirits always coming back) then it isn't the same.

I personally think its just random powers outside of the Hagaromo lineage. So Hamura and Haga are just random evolutions, as are Hyuga and Moon Hyuga.

It could lead somewhere if Toneri wasn't a rogue. Wasn't he?

Its not head canon if it has a foundation, literally. Also allows to explore possiblities, so I like it.



Where did it say Hagoromo learned SM from a Sage Beast? Again, I rarely use the databook but surely, it must have popped in there.
SM being learned makes sense as Yin, the only thing that is naturally gained should be the eyes.

Otsutsuki, or the space vampires, may not need to learn SM as they just need to use Petra Path to take chakra and eat the pills or fruit.
Wiki says it. Could be a rumour (within Naruto) or established facts, I'm not sure.

Sensors exist, so he could've just felt the NE (also, he studied chakra fruit, surely?) and practiced to cultivate it.

Preta doesn't absorb NE, it absorbs chakra (mixed energies). So it can't be SM that gives them those markings.


Yes, I think that too. Although I believe it is all of whatever Yin and Yang symbolizes.

Yin comes from outside of reality (imagination). It is Dark. It is the Mind. Death. Chakra. Anti-Matter, Space. Human (Perfect Susanoo) etc.
Yang comes from within the physical realm (reality). It is Light. It is the Body. Life. Force. Matter, Celestials. Nature (Kurama Form) etc.

Every one of these are in line with the feats of Hagoromo and Hamura.
Only thing I'm unsure of is who falls on which side. Like, can't human be Yang instead of Yin etc.

Otherwise, what you say fits


Forgot10 I see.. Makes sense as Sasuke's and Naruto's powers are basically very basic now. I mean Mitsuki is just as powerful as Naruto when he faced Obito and Madara as he has SM + CM.

For the god items, even if they are shelved, I think they won't be useful anymore. I mean that ninja tool rivaled that of Momoshiki's Rinnegan.
the Land of Thunder also has a planetary plasma cannon that can blast the moon into smitherins. Something only Rinnegan and Tenseigan powers can do. So new tech > god weapons.
Waaaaah

I hate it when what is supposed to be pure art (games, stories, manga etc) suddenly goes political with the anti-religious connotations in how things develop.

Otherwise, they could maybe have them stolen by whatever organization will come after Kara is defeated and . . .
 
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