About rinnegan

[wanderingcactus]

It could lead somewhere if Toneri wasn't a rogue. Wasn't he?

what do you mean by this? If this is about his hijacking of the moon to plummet it into the Earth, I believe he is just an inheritor of the branch's will. So I wouldn't consider him a rogue. Then again, the branch family revolted against Hamura's will so by this definition, yes.

For his instance, the story goes is that when Hagoromo and Hamura went their separate ways, they had children that were just like them. Hagoromo's family remained on Earth while Hamura's watched over on the moon. When both Hagoromo and Hamura became jedi spectral chakras and the next gen is now responsible for Ninshu, Hagoromo's kids, Indra and Ashura fought over it.

This fight caused Hamura's kids to fight as well. This war went on until it was only Toneri was left standing. He saw the events of the Alliance War and started to get the necessary steps to make his ancestral plan to work, which is to decimate the world with the moon. The ensuing events were The Last movie.

As long as the feud is nor ancestral (i.e. undying spirits always coming back) then it isn't the same.

It is unsure whether they were undying spirits (transmigrants) but they sure were an ancestral feud.
This could also just be Kishimoto poking into the "what ifs" scenario. "What if Sasuke succeeded and killed off Naruto?"
I think this outcome of Toneri being all alone while the rest are either entombed or stuck in a giant ball full of eyes.

Funnily enough, this fits the bill of that. The Earth has white zetsus (body) while the moon has eyes (mind).
Toneri succeeded on his quest of achieving Sasuke's goal of being totally alone.

If The Last movie is all about that What If scenario and it reflects all about it, imagine the similarities of the things that were not discussed such as "Was Toneri a transmigrant?" "Did Hamura's kids have transmigrants and tried to summon 10tails?"

Preta doesn't absorb NE, it absorbs chakra (mixed energies). So it can't be SM that gives them those markings

From what I have gathered, chakra is just the life source or energy of an entity (this does not need to be a sentient creature).
For example, while the God Tree is a creature, it naturally accumulates NE much like a SM user does. This NE is the planet's own chakra.

I believe the 10tails was explained to be the chakra of the planet. This is why the Otsutsuki plants those God Trees because they can sap the chakra out of the planet.

Petra Path, to some degree, can be used by Sage Mode users but not to the degree that a Rinnegan user could. I think that would be the only difference. Again, this is my head cannon. I have always understood that this is how chakra worked in that universe.

World's life source > God Tree > Kaguya > kids > Ninshu > ninjutsu
Of course, the chakra branches out before the God Tree since I do not think that the world was completely decimated that there is no other living thing (because all of the world's energy is being sapped by the God Tree).

The reasoning behind this logic is that in the place where the OG MCs fought Momoshiki, only the God Tree is alive.
Same with Kaguya's other worlds. There are no other living beings there except for the God Trees.

I think Earth is the only one where the God Tree was absorbed by Kaguya BEFORE it took all of its energy. THAT or Hagoromo and Hamura spread the chakra all around and created the very abundant world. This could be the case for Hamura since that moon is not just a space rock.

Sage Mode COULD just be that, Petra Path but on nature instead of on another individual.

Like, can't human be Yang instead of Yin etc.

Oh, I was just going with the design aspect. The Susanoo was a human (pengu? tengu? IDK what they are called) while the Avatar was Kurama or if we are talking about Asura, his is a Deva or Asura.

Spoiler: I digress

I find it weird how Ashura was used for Indra's brother since there are 2 factions of the godly beings. One are the Devas and the other are the Asuras.

The Asuras are those 4 armed, 3 headed beings (Ashura) while Devas are closer to humans (1 head 2 arms).
I think Ashura takes after Agni and so IDK why his name isn't that.
Agni is supposedly the speaker for the gods and goddesses. Much like how Naruto was at the end (where all the 9tails were gathered and talking to him and acknowledging him to be their spokeperson).

I hate it when what is supposed to be pure art (games, stories, manga etc) suddenly goes political with the anti-religious connotations in how things develop.

I get you. I have the same problem with Disney on the new trilogy. Really had some great potential that became wasted because they bandwagoned hard on those political views rather than building a good story that fits the world setting.

Otherwise, they could maybe have them stolen by whatever organization will come after Kara is defeated and . . .

I think no one would care? Like a museum piece, they are pretty and nice to look at and once had proper value but they are far more unconventional than everyday tools.

I bet those god tools and even god eyes and bodies will just be sealed off and displayed in a hologram like Jigen's mural

XD

I mean when the pinnacle of power was revived (Kaguya), she was the most basic character ever. I think Kakashi would have easily defeated her.
I mean her moves were Part 1 Naruto. Air Palms and Bone stuff?

I mean even Samurais do not rely on ninjutsus, just imagine with that ninja tool tech improving which rivaled the rinnegans.

Naruto may have won their game and not Sasuke when it comes to the Spirit of Ninja. Boruto just gave false hope in the movie.

 

[Infant]

what do you mean by this? If this is about his hijacking of the moon to plummet it into the Earth, I believe he is just an inheritor of the branch's will. So I wouldn't consider him a rogue. Then again, the branch family revolted against Hamura's will so by this definition, yes.

For his instance, the story goes is that when Hagoromo and Hamura went their separate ways, they had children that were just like them. Hagoromo's family remained on Earth while Hamura's watched over on the moon. When both Hagoromo and Hamura became jedi spectral chakras and the next gen is now responsible for Ninshu, Hagoromo's kids, Indra and Ashura fought over it.

This fight caused Hamura's kids to fight as well. This war went on until it was only Toneri was left standing. He saw the events of the Alliance War and started to get the necessary steps to make his ancestral plan to work, which is to decimate the world with the moon. The ensuing events were The Last movie.

Hamura became a spirit just like Hagaromo? I wasn't aware.

It is unsure whether they were undying spirits (transmigrants) but they sure were an ancestral feud.
This could also just be Kishimoto poking into the "what ifs" scenario. "What if Sasuke succeeded and killed off Naruto?"
I think this outcome of Toneri being all alone while the rest are either entombed or stuck in a giant ball full of eyes.

Funnily enough, this fits the bill of that. The Earth has white zetsus (body) while the moon has eyes (mind).
Toneri succeeded on his quest of achieving Sasuke's goal of being totally alone.

If The Last movie is all about that What If scenario and it reflects all about it, imagine the similarities of the things that were not discussed such as "Was Toneri a transmigrant?" "Did Hamura's kids have transmigrants and tried to summon 10tails?"

Zetsu existed before the moon and such, so it can't be a parallel.

Reincarnation is only explained via undying spirits in Naruto, so unless we're told about Hamura being such, then we cannot assume that his bloodline has any similarities to those of Hagaromo.

From what I have gathered, chakra is just the life source or energy of an entity (this does not need to be a sentient creature).
For example, while the God Tree is a creature, it naturally accumulates NE much like a SM user does. This NE is the planet's own chakra.

I believe the 10tails was explained to be the chakra of the planet. This is why the Otsutsuki plants those God Trees because they can sap the chakra out of the planet.

Petra Path, to some degree, can be used by Sage Mode users but not to the degree that a Rinnegan user could. I think that would be the only difference. Again, this is my head cannon. I have always understood that this is how chakra worked in that universe.

World's life source > God Tree > Kaguya > kids > Ninshu > ninjutsu
Of course, the chakra branches out before the God Tree since I do not think that the world was completely decimated that there is no other living thing (because all of the world's energy is being sapped by the God Tree).

The reasoning behind this logic is that in the place where the OG MCs fought Momoshiki, only the God Tree is alive.
Same with Kaguya's other worlds. There are no other living beings there except for the God Trees.

I think Earth is the only one where the God Tree was absorbed by Kaguya BEFORE it took all of its energy. THAT or Hagoromo and Hamura spread the chakra all around and created the very abundant world. This could be the case for Hamura since that moon is not just a space rock.

Sage Mode COULD just be that, Petra Path but on nature instead of on another individual

Because there is so muuuuch detail in Naruto, any theory can be built.up to a reasonable extent.

But for certainty, its best to stick to what we are given. Or atleast to go on until point of.contradiction is reached.

In this case, I've never seen or heard of Preta being usable for SM users. Any source on this?

Chakra is definitely different from NE. Energy is pure, being either Natural, Spiritual or Physical. Chakra happens when you mix these energies.

, I was just going with the design aspect. The Susanoo was a human (pengu? tengu? IDK what they are called) while the Avatar was Kurama or if we are talking about Asura, his is a Deva or Asura.

Spoiler: I digress

undefined

I see.

I get you. I have the same problem with Disney on the new trilogy. Really had some great potential that became wasted because they bandwagoned hard on those political views rather than building a good story that fits the world setting.

I think no one would care? Like a museum piece, they are pretty and nice to look at and once had proper value but they are far more unconventional than everyday tools.

I bet those god tools and even god eyes and bodies will just be sealed off and displayed in a hologram like Jigen's mural

XD

I mean when the pinnacle of power was revived (Kaguya), she was the most basic character ever. I think Kakashi would have easily defeated her.
I mean her moves were Part 1 Naruto. Air Palms and Bone stuff?

I mean even Samurais do not rely on ninjutsus, just imagine with that ninja tool tech improving which rivaled the rinnegans.

Naruto may have won their game and not Sasuke when it comes to the Spirit of Ninja. Boruto just gave false hope in the movie

Boruto itself seems to be built as a anti-technology/paradigm shift (alternative sciences) campaign, but maybe they can make a decent story of it.

Well, if they can bijuu, they are automatically more powerful than anyone below Rikudo level. Maybe mix them with the ninja tech system of somehow merging them with human vessels. Or something.

Well, Kaguya also does her basic tricks at the speed of Rikudo level. XD.

Otherwise, I feel wierdly hopeful.

 

[wanderingcactus]

Hamura became a spirit just like Hagaromo? I wasn't aware.

yeah, Hinata met him and he gave her his chakra.

That's why Boruto ended up having the Jougan. (Hinata could potentially be a Tenseigan user)

Zetsu existed before the moon and such, so it can't be a parallel.

I was merely pointing out the whole symbolism. The moon had the dead be eyes (Tenseigan Orb) while on Earth, the dead had white zetsus.

Body (Zetsu) Mind (Tenseigan Orb)

That is what I meant when I said parallel.

Well, if they can bijuu, they are automatically more powerful than anyone below Rikudo level. Maybe mix them with the ninja tech system of somehow merging them with human vessels. Or something.

Ninja Cyborg? That's a very cool aspect. I think Kawaki is half-way there since his arm is a machine already.
I also remember Ao being an android, actually (since he lost his Byakugan).

Well, Kaguya also does her basic tricks at the speed of Rikudo level. XD.

Otherwise, I feel wierdly hopeful.

We'll just hope that the next other Otsutsukis will actually have ALL of the techs (Tenseigan, Rinnegan, SM and CM) showcased.
We didn't get to see Kaguya showing off hers, only Part 1 techs.
Momoshiki didn't show off his RinneSharingan power so as far as we are concerned, it is only used to cast IT.

Hopefully Urashiki, Isshiki and the other -shiki (if male) will.

 

[Infant]

yeah, Hinata met him and he gave her his chakra.

That's why Boruto ended up having the Jougan. (Hinata could potentially be a Tenseigan user)

Interesting. Must be an Otsutsuki technique, based on what happened with Boruto in the last chapter.

I was merely pointing out the whole symbolism. The moon had the dead be eyes (Tenseigan Orb) while on Earth, the dead had white zetsus.

Body (Zetsu) Mind (Tenseigan Orb)

That is what I meant when I said parallel

Parallel implies equality, which doesn't often occur if events don't occur simultaneously or are birthed by equal opposites.

So in this the moon and earth, tenseigan ad zetsu, aren't really equal. Also consider that Zetsu doesn't have to exist and is an artificial construct while Tenseigan is bloodline related.

Ninja Cyborg? That's a very cool aspect. I think Kawaki is half-way there since his arm is a machine already.
I also remember Ao being an android, actually (since he lost his Byakugan).

Indeed.

Though I'm an 'origin' junkie and as such would prefer things to be chakra/spirit based as opposed to technology. Mainly coz technology doesn't follow the Naruto world. Reason being Ninja had existed for thousand(s) of years without relying on technology and instead using chakra. So to now add technology into it goes against the premise of Naruto: chakra instead of technology.

Just my thoughts.

We'll just hope that the next other Otsutsukis will actually have ALL of the techs (Tenseigan, Rinnegan, SM and CM) showcased.
We didn't get to see Kaguya showing off hers, only Part 1 techs.
Momoshiki didn't show off his RinneSharingan power so as far as we are concerned, it is only used to cast IT.

Hopefully Urashiki, Isshiki and the other -shiki (if male) will

Yeah, I think as a fanbase we deserve an explanation for how these things work.

 

[Sanger_Zonvolt]

Sage Mode is a non-factor, Indra and Ashura would need to be fused together or Indra takes Ashura's body or blood and awakens the Rinnegan by fusing that with his own blood somehow, and Hagoromo is the original Rinnegan user.
End of story, don't see why anyone needs to read into it at all.

 

[wanderingcactus]

Parallel implies equality, which doesn't often occur if events don't occur simultaneously or are birthed by equal opposites.

So in this the moon and earth, tenseigan ad zetsu, aren't really equal. Also consider that Zetsu doesn't have to exist and is an artificial construct while Tenseigan is bloodline related

You misunderstood what I meant.
Parallels do not have to be equal. They are meant to be similar, not equal.

As for the Moon and the Earth, each one has their associated symbolism. The Moon, containing Kaguya's vessel, Gedo Statue: THE BODY, has their dead be in the Tenseigan Orb, THE MIND. Hamura SUPPOSEDLY symbolize the Yang side as he is the brother who did not have matured eyes.

Through parallels, we can ascertain that Hamura is the younger brother; he is the Yang, and he has the BODY. This coincides with him having Kaguya's vessel.

The ironic bit is the people being turned into the Tenseigan Orb, THE MIND.

As for the Earth, everything about it is Yin. From Hagoromo, to the tailed beasts. Yet, Zetsus are dead people who are turned into vessels. THE BODY if you will.

This is the ironic bit. If anything, the Moon SHOULD have the zetsus, as the are The Body. While the Earth SHOULD have the Eye Orb as they are The Mind.

Zetsus are not artificial constructs. They are made by the Gedo Statue, The Body, Kaguya's vessel, God Tree. This in turn makes them an Otsutsuki bloodline tech.

Though I'm an 'origin' junkie and as such would prefer things to be chakra/spirit based as opposed to technology. Mainly coz technology doesn't follow the Naruto world. Reason being Ninja had existed for thousand(s) of years without relying on technology and instead using chakra. So to now add technology into it goes against the premise of Naruto: chakra instead of technology.

Same here. I believe the people that are into the next gen are really just wanting to find out more about the origin.
This is why I only read the manga as it is still based on that while the anime is just trying to relive the glory days of Part 1 Naruto and going for that nostalgia feel.

Plus, they are not meant to attract us but the next gen. Although I am not quite sure if anime is big on them. It sure is becoming one for our gen but I think the next gen are more into TikTok than anything.

Post automatically merged: Mar 5, 2020

Indra got the Sharingan which then later evolved into the Mangekyo Sharingan and Ashura later on learned sage mode. If Senjutsu is needed to evolve the Sharingan then explain how Indra evolved his Sharingan into a Mangekyo Sharingan.

I believe that SM that the Otsutsuki has is different than the ones that can be learned from Sage beasts. I think the Otsutsukis are Sage beasts themselves.
This means that they do not need to learn it but just comes with them inherently.

Also, wouldn't it make more sense if Indra was just born with the Mangekyu instead of having it be evolved? His bloodline should be the first in the sharingan. His wouldn't just be the normal Mangekyu at that as well. It would be the EMS and can spam any techs and it would not make him go blind.

Otherwise, he is just the same as the very diluted Uchiha fodders. I don't think that the first sharingan user would be on that level.

What about all the other people who have had the Mangekyo Sharingan? How would you explain their MS? It was even stated that to get the Rinnegan you need the DNA of Indra and Ashura and of course the Sharingan and that is what we have seen so far, but if Senjutsu is needed to gain the Rinnegan and the MS then there are so many questions that are still unanswered and that wouldn't make any sense.

Isn't the whole premise of the sharingan is concentrating all the chakra in your brain and that chakra would be seen out of their eyes as explained by Tobirama? (or was it Hashirama?).

Meaning that in order to trigger MS, one must have all their chakra put into their brain. To attain EMS, you have to have someone else's most compatible chakra (best way is to gain their eyes). Meaning that even if you get external additional chakra, say through senjustu, it wouldn't work because it is incompatible. You do get extra chakra, but it possible would not be usable to go to the brain.

To gain Rinnegan, as I stated above, it is possible that the Otsutsukis are Sage beasts themselves and you have to learn their SM so any SM from other Sage Beasts would not do.

Sasuke's curse mark is from the Snake Sage. Even if Naruto shares his chakra with Sasuke, it still would not work. Because Kurama is not the same as the Juubi. Each tailed beasts have their own affinity. So if Naruto wants to awaken Sasuke's Rinnegan, he needs to give the Juubi chakra to him so it becomes compatible.

"wouldn't Naruto gain Rinnegan if that was the case?"

Watch The Last movie. That movie states what it would be should the Yang or the Uzumaki, instead of the Uchiha,must do to become the So6P.

Toneri has the "sage mode" or in his case, chakra mode, to begin with. All he needed was the eyes.

"How did he get chakra mode?"
He was born with it is my guess.
But from what we can gather, there are several chakra modes out there. One is chain (Uzumaki chain). One is weapon (Kinshiki). One is cloak (Naruto + Kurama). One is fishing rod (Urashiki).

Toneri is IDK but he certainly has chakra cloak in his So6P mode.

If we take this as reference and my hypothesis, the case of Otsutsuki has their own Sage Mode means that one must gain that in order to awaken the Rinnegan and no other Sage Mode would do.

 

[Yahcob13]

Senjutsu is so underated but it's almost necessary to sustain the amount of chakra needed to sustain rinnegan jutsu.