A detailed thread on why Nagato > Hashirama

lol99

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Erm...Edo Madara's chakra >>>> Hashirama's chakra.

not true, rather no proof of that

edo gives you a chakra boost but doesn't magically gives you tons of chakra that you didnt have.
mizukage was rendered weak after using jouki boi, muu couldn't use dust release after splitting

and about your flowering tree world.

The kages did fly away but they were still rendered unconscious U_U
 

TobisPawn

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not true, rather no proof of that

edo gives you a chakra boost but doesn't magically gives you tons of chakra that you didnt have.
mizukage was rendered weak after using jouki boi, muu couldn't use dust release after splitting

and about your flowering tree world.

The kages did fly away but they were still rendered unconscious U_U

For flowering tree world:

They were rendered unconscious when Madara knocked them back down to the ground. U_U They were fine on Gaara's sand.



And yes, Edo Madara >>> Hashirama chakra-wise.

Edo, Uchiha DNA, Senju DNA, and Kabuto enhancements >>>> Senju DNA
 

lol99

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For flowering tree world:

They were rendered unconscious when Madara knocked them back down to the ground. U_U They were fine on Gaara's sand.



And yes, Edo Madara >>> Hashirama chakra-wise.

Edo, Uchiha DNA, Senju DNA, and Kabuto enhancements >>>> Senju DNA

you will never give up will you xd

but still nagato has counter to just about anything in narutoverse but in an actual combat it comes down to smarts U_U
and cornering your opponent like the paths did to jiraiya
 

blazekev90

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great thread, now whether I agree fully I'm not too sure. But REP+ for the work put into it, i wouldnt have haha
 

TobisPawn

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you will never give up will you xd

but still nagato has counter to just about anything in narutoverse but in an actual combat it comes down to smarts U_U
and cornering your opponent like the paths did to jiraiya

I think Nagato has had the Rinnegan long enough (20-30 years) to know how to use it to its full potential.
 

MadaraHashirama

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some people hype hashirama so much because what kabuto said, i just have one question how could kabuto know hashi's true powers if he never lived during the first's era, i cant figure out how.

Even Madara was surprised on how he knows so much about Madara's "prime" and such, he knows the secrets of the Uchiha tablet and he doesn't even have the Sharingan.
Don't underestimate Orochimaru's knowledge
 

TobisPawn

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Even Madara was surprised on how he knows so much about Madara's "prime" and such, he knows the secrets of the Uchiha tablet and he doesn't even have the Sharingan.
Don't underestimate Orochimaru's knowledge

That doesn't mean that he would know anything about Hashirama's power, other then through enhanced versions through Madara, OR Hiruzen's prime.
 

narutownsyouall

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For flowering tree world:

They were rendered unconscious when Madara knocked them back down to the ground. U_U They were fine on Gaara's sand.



And yes, Edo Madara >>> Hashirama chakra-wise.

Edo, Uchiha DNA, Senju DNA, and Kabuto enhancements >>>> Senju DNA

Nagato can fly but Hashirama really could just keep him in there by making a canopy and use nativity world to keep him down there. Even If he uses a mass scale shinra tensai he has just lost his best power for quite a bit and It would leave him defenseless against Hashirama's Mokuton.
And one of the huge reasons people want Hashi cells is the chakra boost. Nobody tries to get Uchiha blood because It really only affects the Sharingan. Ther has not been anything stated to be special about their blood or DNA.

Edo Madara does beat him chakra wise but its only due to his Hashirama cells. And the fact that it replenishes itself. (If you want ill explain it to you.)
But without Hashirama cells Rinnegan Techniques would drain him enormously and he would not be able to do nearly as much as He has been doing. Hashirama cells grant massive chakra. Danzo used it to make Izanagi kinda work. The same effect happened to Madara and as well as Tobi. The point is that He himself was a Massive chakra pool that housed massive chakras that have granted Madara What seems like unlimited chakra.

But Hashirama would beat Nagato. His abilities work really well against him if you look at it the right way.
 

TobisPawn

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Nagato can fly but Hashirama really could just keep him in there by making a canopy and use nativity world to keep him down there. Even If he uses a mass scale shinra tensai he has just lost his best power for quite a bit and It would leave him defenseless against Hashirama's Mokuton.
And one of the huge reasons people want Hashi cells is the chakra boost. Nobody tries to get Uchiha blood because It really only affects the Sharingan. Ther has not been anything stated to be special about their blood or DNA.

Edo Madara does beat him chakra wise but its only due to his Hashirama cells. And the fact that it replenishes itself. (If you want ill explain it to you.)
But without Hashirama cells Rinnegan Techniques would drain him enormously and he would not be able to do nearly as much as He has been doing. Hashirama cells grant massive chakra. Danzo used it to make Izanagi kinda work. The same effect happened to Madara and as well as Tobi. The point is that He himself was a Massive chakra pool that housed massive chakras that have granted Madara What seems like unlimited chakra.

But Hashirama would beat Nagato. His abilities work really well against him if you look at it the right way.

A full health Nagato would have no trouble using a minor - average Shinra Tensei to blast away the canopy. That, or he can use the Asura Path to destroy it and the Flower Tree World.

Nagato is an Uzumaki, giving him just as much chakra and stamina as a Senju (probably).
 

narutownsyouall

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A full health Nagato would have no trouble using a minor - average Shinra Tensei to blast away the canopy. That, or he can use the Asura Path to destroy it and the Flower Tree World.

Nagato is an Uzumaki, giving him just as much chakra and stamina as a Senju (probably).

Not as much as Hashirama.
Senju>Uzamaki

And Even if he flies he can not do much to Hashirama.
Hashirama is better equipped
 

TobisPawn

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Not as much as Hashirama.
Senju>Uzamaki

And Even if he flies he can not do much to Hashirama.
Hashirama is better equipped

If he flies, he can spam Shinra Tensei, Asura Path, Bansho Ten'in, or he can simply use Chibaku Tensei to screw Hashirama over.

And I'd think that Uzumakis and Senjus are around even.
 

ANBU Kakashi23

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Introduction
Well, at least I hope this thread will have enough detail to be considered a "detailed thread." But yeah, I believe Nagato > Hashirama, and that Nagato has counters to most of Hashirama's, if not all, shown techniques. I also believe that Hashirama, on the other hand, does not have too many counters to Nagato's techniques.
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1. Hashirama's shown techniques that Nagato can counter
In this section, I'll be listing Hashirama's techniques that can be countered by Nagato, and why:

NOTE: I'm using Yamato's techniques. Just imagine them on a larger scale.

1. Mokuton - Forest Genesis
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As shown, this technique obviously creates a huge forest that not only grows anywhere, but it also attempts to bind the user (shown by it attacking Hiruzen). IMO, this technique will be quite simple to beat by Nagato, even without the use of Preta Path (which can simply absorb it). As shown in his fight with Naruto and co., Nagato can use Shinra Tensei while still immobile, shown here:
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With this, Nagato can easily push away any wood binding him. It can be noted that Kabuto forced Nagato to use it, but Amaterasu =/ Mokuton in terms of damage to the body like that. Binding by wood will not kill Nagato, therefore he'll still be able to use Shinra Tensei to blast it away. And with the Deva, Asura, and Preta paths, Nagato can easily dispatch the entire forest.

2. Hokage-Style Sixty-Year-Old Technique — Kakuan Entering Society with Bliss-Bringing Hands

This is a technique used by Yamato to bind a Bijuu's chakra, which Nagato has none of. So it should be no issue.

3. Wood Release: Wood Spikes Ring
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A technique used by Yamato, and also probably Hashirama. A Shinra Tensei should easily be able to blow it away, even if the spikes are in motion.

4. Wood Release: Four-Pillar Prison Technique
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Asura path's missiles should be able to easily blow this up. Or the Preta Path can absorb it. OR Deva Path can just blow it away. No issue here.

5. Wood Release: Great Forest Technique
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A technique that transforms the arm into wood and extends it as maneuverable spikes. A deadly technique, though Nagato can easily counter it. Nagato can simply use the Preta Path on this technique to absorb it, or use the Asura Path to grab it with mechanical arms, as shown below:
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6. Wood Release: Smothering Binding Technique
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There are two counters to this. One is the simple Shinra Tensei to blow it away. Or Nagato can use the Preta Path to absorb all the Ninjutsu around him, as shown:
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7. Wood Release: Wood Locking Wall
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This is a defensive jutsu that doesn't really pose much of a threat to Nagato. He can easily blow it up using his Asura Path, and that's only one option. This is what Nagato can do to this jutsu to blow it up:
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8. Wood Release: Jukai Koutan
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Nagato has a couple of counters to this. One is he can absorb only the wood in his vicinity, so as to remove any nearby threat. OR he can use the Asura Path and fire missiles everywhere to counter and stop the wood. Or he can simply use Shinra Tensei and send everything flying away from him.

9. Wood Release: Advent of a World of Flowering Trees
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This technique poses a decent threat to Nagato. But, as shown, it can be avoided by flying up and away from it, as shown by the Kages floating up above it, through Gaara's sand. Also, as long as it isn't inhaled, it'll have no effect on a floating Nagato, and we all know the Deva Path can fly, letting Nagato avoid this technique. Then, he can just use Shinra Tensei from the air to get rid of all of it:
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10. Healing without handsigns

A good move indeed. But Hashirama was still bloodied and exhausted after his fight with Madara, showing that he can't completely heal anything. So a Chibaku Tensei, Asura Path missiles, or any other destructive technique (Nagato has all elements) can easily damage Hashirama by a good amount.

2. Nagato's techniques that can give Hashirama trouble
Now I'll be listing all of the techniques that can easily Give Hashirama a lot of trouble:

1. Deva Path - Using Shinra Tensei and Bansho Ten'in, Nagato can easily screw with Hashirama. He can repel any attack sent at him, and even use Shinra Tensei to attack Hashirama, and then use Banso Ten'in to throw him off balance or bring Hashirama towards him, so he can stab him:

Shinra Tensei
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Bansho Ten'in
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2. Asura Path - With its mechanical arms and missiles, Hashirama's wood can easily be blown away, and Hashirama can easily be injured. Hashirama will have to constantly be avoiding missiles and what not, giving him a hard time. And if he gets near Nagato (Bansho Ten'in), Nagato can subdue him with mechanical arms:

Asura Path
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3. Preta Path - Nagato can just absorb any Ninjutsu (Doton, Suiton, Mokuton) thrown at him. This will give Hashirama a lot of trouble with trying to injure Nagato. And Nagato will be able to pretty much avoid any Ninjutsu with it.

Preta Path
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4. Human Path - Nagato can remove Hashirama's soul. All he has to do is subdue him with a summon or Deva + Asura Path, and then rip out his soul. This will keep Hashirama very edgy and keep him on the defense.

Human Path
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5. Animal Path - Summons that can cause a lot of damage and also give Nagato shared vision, letting him easily see and avoid most of Hashirama's attacks. They can also go on the offensive, preoccupying Hashirama while Nagato goes to work.

Animal Path (some summons)
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6. All Nature Transformations - Nagato mastered all elemental transformations. Fire and Wind together can do decent damage to Mokuton. Any combination, or any Ninjutsu, can be trouble to anyone. And with mastery on all elements, Nagato will be a lot of trouble for Hashirama.

7. Chibaku Tensei - This is a HUGE issue for Hashirama. Hashirama will be dragged towards the center and crushed by the gravity and continuous rocks flowing in. Hashirama essentially has no counter to this technique. The only way Hashirama can counter it is if he has a technique as powerful as a Rasen Shuriken, TBB, and Yasaka Magatama all together. And he'd still need a decent footing to use it.

Chibaku Tensei
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3. The Controversial Bringer of Darkness (B.O.D.)
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Admittedly, this is a tough technique to counter. Nagato may possibly be able to get his summons to transfer chakra into him to negate the Genjutsu, but I'm not sure on that.

But there is a weakness to B.O.D:
"Although it negates sight, it does not stop the other senses."

Nagato can spam Asura Path missiles and hope for a hit on Hashirama, though this also a tough one. So he can spam Shinra Tensei to keep Hashirama away from him, so he can use a Chibaku Tensei, sending Hashirama into the air. This will essentially keep Hashirama away from him, and possibly disable the Genjutsu. From there, Nagato can let CB crush Hashirama, or kill him with the Asura Path.

OR Nagato can send a flying summon out of the Genjutsu, giving Nagato sight through it.
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So in conclusion, as of now, Nagato can defeat Hashirama because there are counters to all of Hashirama's shown techniques. Hashirama simply cannot defeat a skilled Rinnegan user such as Nagato. Thank you for reading.


tl;dr: Nagato's Preta Path can absorb Hashirama's Mokuton and other Ninjutsu. Deva Path can blow away his techniques, and also send Hashirama reeling in towards him. Asura Path can cause destructive damage everywhere, and can also be a possible counter to B.O.D. Animal Path summons can give Nagato a wide range of vision to avoid Hashirama's techniques, and also let him cause some damage through them. Nagato's Chibaku Tensei can pretty much end Hashirama.

Similar thread:

i agree, nagato has more answers for hashi's techs than hashi has for nagatos


good thread +rep
 
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Preta wouldn't work on wood as far as we know (it hasn't been shown used on an attack that is a solid (rock/ice/wood/etc). When physical matter is used in a jutsu it would make sense that it could cost chakra to turn something physical back into chakra, so my theory is that it could be possible but it would require using chakra which could hender it's use. Also, Preta is vulenrable to attack in every direction in many of Hashi's jutsu, and we don't know if Preta can just use his hands to absorb or his entire body(I think he can use his 2 hands only).
 

timmo

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Based on hype, Hashi wins, but because we have not seen the full power of both Nagato Hashirama we cannot know.
Remembering the many Itachi vs Nagato threads, people always argued that Nagato could suck up Susano'o, yet he didn't when they fought (prolly cause of Kabuto or plot no jutsu i dunno). So saying that this jutsu and this jutsu beats that jutsu doesn't always work.
 

Munboy

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I really think it is wise to give Hashirama the benefit of the doubt. Granted I assume he was a Sage user, but that's my opinion.

Aside from that Kishimoto, through Kabuto, said that Hashirama's power/prowess was so great that it was deemed to be a fairy tale. Hashirama's power/prowess was deemed a fairy tale just like the Rikudou Sennin's entire existence.

That says something big, and I believe there is a lot more to Hashirama than we know. From what we know we can say Nagato has a shot of winning, Hashirama can still manage a win with the right strategy. But from what we know, Nagato wins a lot of the time.

This is only counting what we know of Hashirama; the key is what we don't know. And there is bound be to a lot more we don't know.
Hashirama would still be on EMS Madara-Nagato tier, whether or not he occupies the top of that tier remains to be seen. Personally I will give him the benefit of the doubt and say: yes. Especially if Hashirama was a Senjutsu user, then I think that cements his superiority over Nagato.
 
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