A>B>C Logic

[RasenUchihaChaos]

Only problem is he doesn't... Sasuke himself acknowledged Naruto as his superior when Naruto was facing Gaara.. saying anything against it is going against Sasuke himself.

yes cuz naruto can clearly not keep up with that level of speed i find it amusing how narutos reflex and speed stay the same throughout part 1 and yet he keeps up with sasuke who has been shown to excell in that area

+ i recall sasuke doing a primary lotus and slamming naruto's head into the ground but kurama goes be grateful i saved ur life

 

[KingHashirama]

yes cuz naruto can clearly not keep up with that level of speed i find it amusing how narutos reflex and speed stay the same throughout part 1 and yet he keeps up with sasuke who has been shown to excell in that area

+ i recall sasuke doing a primary lotus and slamming naruto's head into the ground but kurama goes be grateful i saved ur life

LOL@ Naruto can't keep up with Sasuke's speed.. mate Naruto with kyuubi power up during Neji's fight can keep up with Sasuke's speed. And in fact he can tank it, Sasuke will only end up wasting his energy.

And why are you still bothering to continue it when Sasuke was getting jealous of Naruto being stronger than him?

 

[brownbear]

You were wrong the moment you said a>b>c.

As for that logic applieing to any fighting your dead wrong. Being a martial artist with more than a few fights under my belt I should know a little about the subject.

Riddle me this? If you are indeed right how is it that I can beat my friend dustin everytime we spar,but only take my friend ryan down once out of about 20 sessions but dustin completely dominates ryan majority of the time.

Constants and variables my friend. Its part of life.

 

[Madara Uzumaki Uchiha]

The problem with A>B>C logic is that just becuase you beat me in a race doesnot mean you can beat me in basketball. Fights with characters that have multiple streanghts and abilites require more thought than A>B>C logic implies. Sure, it works alot but the problems arise when people incorrectly use A>B>C.

Kisame looses to Gai, but Kisame beats killer B, can Gai Beat Killer B???
When multiple facets are involved, traits and counters take larger roles in fights, lowering the accuracy of the A>B>C module. Kakuzo vs Preta path would be a bad matchup because kakuzo focuses in ninjustu.
A great example is Enel vs luffy. Enel fights with electricity and Luffy is a rubber man, so Luffy defeated Enel.

My problem with your point about "A>B>C logic is fundamental to fighting" is completly erroneous to reality. Sure, in simple one dimensional series like DBZ A>B>C logic applies to almsot every fight. But, in most modern works that try to take a more realistic aproach to fighting, it become more complicated than A>B>C. In real life boxing, A>B>C logic doesnot work because different fighters have techniques and styles that focus on certain aspects. Now when you include even more variables into fighting like superpowers, then A>B>C logic becomes even more esoteric. So your idea that A>B>C logic is the basis of most fights isnot true in most fights- in manga the biggest dictator of who wins a fight is willpower, which has some truth to it, its not A>B>C. Authors don't typically employ A>B>C logic because it makes things too boring and predictable.

The basis of A>B>C logic is that by looking a the base stats ie speed,ability,power and comparing you can determine the winner. The problem is that formula doesnot always work in real life ( think about underdogs), and is almost never true in manga. It makes things predictable, which doesnot sell volumes.

 

[KingHashirama]

You were wrong the moment you said a>b>c.

As for that logic applieing to any fighting your dead wrong. Being a martial artist with more than a few fights under my belt I should know a little about the subject.

Riddle me this? If you are indeed right how is it that I can beat my friend dustin everytime we spar,but only take my friend ryan down once out of about 20 sessions but dustin completely dominates ryan majority of the time.

Constants and variables my friend. Its part of life.

Clearly didn't read the "Exceptions" part of the thread.

You clearly seem to be the "exception" for the fight.. because as far as my life goes, A>B>C logic has been the story.

 

[RasenUchihaChaos]

LOL@ Naruto can't keep up with Sasuke's speed.. mate Naruto with kyuubi power up during Neji's fight can keep up with Sasuke's speed. And in fact he can tank it, Sasuke will only end up wasting his energy.

And why are you still bothering to continue it when Sasuke was getting jealous of Naruto being stronger than him?

cause sasuke doesn't think yea a rasengan made a bigger hole than ur chidori calm down kid

 

[Jon Snow.]

Another wonderful thread...

 

[KingHashirama]

The problem with A>B>C logic is that just becuase you beat me in a race doesnot mean you can beat me in basketball. Fights with characters that have multiple streanghts and abilites require more thought than A>B>C logic implies. Sure, it works alot but the problems arise when people incorrectly use A>B>C.

Kisame looses to Gai, but Kisame beats killer B, can Gai Beat Killer B???
When multiple facets are involved, traits and counters take larger roles in fights, lowering the accuracy of the A>B>C module. Kakuzo vs Preta path would be a bad matchup because kakuzo focuses in ninjustu.
A great example is Enel vs luffy. Enel fights with electricity and Luffy is a rubber man, so Luffy defeated Enel.

My problem with your point about "A>B>C logic is fundamental to fighting" is completly erroneous to reality. Sure, in simple one dimensional series like DBZ A>B>C logic applies to almsot every fight. But, in most modern works that try to take a more realistic aproach to fighting, it become more complicated than A>B>C. In real life boxing, A>B>C logic doesnot work because different fighters have techniques and styles that focus on certain aspects. Now when you include even more variables into fighting like superpowers, then A>B>C logic becomes even more esoteric. So your idea that A>B>C logic is the basis of most fights isnot true in most fights- in manga the biggest dictator of who wins a fight is willpower, which has some truth to it, its not A>B>C. Authors don't typically employ A>B>C logic because it makes things too boring and predictable.

The basis of A>B>C logic is that by looking a the base stats ie speed,ability,power and comparing you can determine the winner. The problem is that formula doesnot always work in real life ( think about underdogs), and is almost never true in manga. It makes things predictable, which doesnot sell volumes.

Requirements of A>B>C logic:

- Same character with same power or higher (A)

- Character B the one who lost needs to be weaker of course

- C lost to B , and is weaker than B in everything.

- Hence A is the dominating one.



How fans like yourself use it:

- Character A beats character B

- Character B then beats character C

- However Character A has decreased in power, but character C has increased.

- Fans will still try to force this logic, when it is not applicable.


The problem isn't the logic itself, the problem is the ones who apply it. And no, what you are talking about is not A>B>C logic, its not applicable to that, due to the fact you actually TRAIN after that fight.

Example, Manny beats Mayweather. Mayweather beat Amir. However, Amir got stronger over time and ends up tieing it with Manny..

THAT IS NOT PART OF A>B>C logic.. because the Amir who lost to Mayweather is not the one who fought Manny...

Goku = the strongest due to A>B>C logic.

Luffy will = the strongest due to A>B>C logic

Naruto will = the strongest due to A>B>C logic

cause sasuke doesn't think yea a rasengan made a bigger hole than ur chidori calm down kid

Gaara fight kiddo, before the hole.

 

[the last shinobi]

Apparently you don't understand the fundamentals of A-B-C logic or a itypical shonen manga
Naruto doesn't have the usual power scaling of other shonen manga
This also means you lack any true understanding of the stats in the data book

There not clear cut numbers.
There personal individual stats
And there is 8 main categories
One with a lower overall score doesn't mean they can't beat anyone with a overall higher score it depends on the stats of the individual.

Kisame overall has more chakra,justu,versatility and in his final fight in the manga was on his home turf THE OCEAN.
And he loss.
Why ?
Because Guy had the specific traits that made most of his arsenal irrelevant.

this right here is A-B-C doesn't work in naruto

 

[KingHashirama]

this right here is A-B-C doesn't work in naruto

Only problem is he himself wasn't using A>B>C logic..

 

[brownbear]

Clearly didn't read the "Exceptions" part of the thread.

You clearly seem to be the "exception" for the fight.. because as far as my life goes, A>B>C logic has been the story.

I sir am no "exception" I've seen it play out the same with many of my sparring partners and fellow students. The guy that posted after me left a very correct definition of how your logic does not work in reality. Please go read it

 

[BenjerminGaye]

I always find it funny, that people say A>B>C logic doesn't work in Naruto/One Piece and sometimes in Bleach, even though the fact is A>B>C Logic is usually the driving force in Shonen manga.

Even in their respected universes, strength is based by characters from the A>B>C logic.


See the thing is you look at fights, IF it is going to be a non A>B>C logic fight, then the exceptions are always stated.


SAsuke vs Deidara = Sasuke had the elemental advantage..

Enru vs Luffy = Luffy was rubber..


All those things were stated or shown. A>B>C logic applies unless the exception is stated. A>B>C logic is the base logic of any fighting. However, if the fight is not within the logic it stated so.

Abc logic doesn't work in naruto since there's too many variables.

Dbz has 3 things and these 3 things are determined by power level. Speed, strength, and kai waves. That's why it works there.

Naruto on the other hand has too many variables and factors to determine outcome by abc.(elemental superiority, handseal speed, stamina, chakra control, nin gen and taijutsu prowess, prep time, intel etc...)

The only form of abc logic that MIGHT work is when comparing something specific. Not overall battle/combat ability.
For example:
Speed/reactions: minato dodged ay, ay dodged ama minato can dodge ama

 

[Madara Uzumaki Uchiha]

Requirements of A>B>C logic:

- Same character with same power or higher (A)

- Character B the one who lost needs to be weaker of course

- C lost to B , and is weaker than B in everything.

- Hence A is the dominating one.

I agree with this, you did a much better job than me describing A>B>C logic.

How fans like yourself use it:

- Character A beats character B

- Character B then beats character C

- However Character A has decreased in power, but character C has increased.

- Fans will still try to force this logic, when it is not applicable.

[/COLOR]I don't know that I have seen this fallicy before, but I believe you. In my experience the most common A>B>C logic error is made when comparing Sasuke/Deidera-Kisame/Gai-

The problem isn't the logic itself, the problem is the ones who apply it. And no, what you are talking about is not A>B>C logic, its not applicable to that, due to the fact you actually TRAIN after that fight.

I still don't believe that logic because: to put it simply, lets say I am rock, another person is sciccors and the third person is paper. Lets call me A, person #2 B and person #3 C.

In this, extremly simple example the logic behind A>B>C doesnot work, and I am saying that as things get more complicated the less predictive A>B>C logic is in respect to a fight.

A>B and B>C are both true but A doesnot beat C.

Example, Manny beats Mayweather. Mayweather beat Amir. However, Amir got stronger over time and ends up tieing it with Manny..

How about Manny beats Mayweather, but Mayweather beats Amir, however Amir specializes in left side kicks and Manny is weak at defending left side kicks- So Amir beats Manny. Which example seems more realistic.

THAT IS NOT PART OF A>B>C logic.. because the Amir who lost to Mayweather is not the one who fought Manny...

Goku = the strongest due to A>B>C logic. Not counting movies Gohan is stronger lol- jk- but while Goku is the strongest, he could be beaten by weaker characters. For example, Gohan was stronger than Buu, but Buu beat Gohan via absorption. Streanght doesnot always mean victory,- its more complicated than that. Cell was tied with Goku, but Cell beat Goku. See how this logicis flawed??

Luffy will = the strongest due to A>B>C logic Luffy may be the strongest, but if Law uses his hax room he might beat lufy. Luffy can beat smoker, but smoker can navigate laws room because he is a logia.

Naruto will = the strongest due to A>B>C logic

My point is that just because you are considered the strongest doesnot mean you don't have weaknesses that others excell at and can exploit. Thats a fact of life.

 

[KingHashirama]

I sir am no "exception" I've seen it play out the same with many of my sparring partners and fellow students. The guy that posted after me left a very correct definition of how your logic does not work in reality. Please go read it

Hence its an exception. And on top of that you can't apply the A>B>C logic to something like that when there is a constant progression. You aren't even using A>B>C... hell you could've gotten better, and your sparring partner could've gotten weaker.. not even part of the A>B>C logic. A>B>C logic deals with no progression, and if there is a progression then the A>B>C logic must be changed accordingly.

Saying the Naruto who beat Gaara is stronger than the Sasuke who was getting whipped by Gaara, is A>B>C logic.. there is no increase or decrease in the characters, they were all there at that time. In that same time period.

Abc logic doesn't work in naruto since there's too many variables.

Dbz has 3 things and these 3 things are determined by power level. Speed, strength, and kai waves. That's why it works there.

Naruto on the other hand has too many variables and factors to determine outcome by abc.(elemental superiority, handseal speed, stamina, chakra control, nin gen and taijutsu prowess, prep time, intel etc...)

The only form of abc logic that MIGHT work is when comparing something specific. Not overall battle/combat ability.
For example:
Speed/reactions: minato dodged ay, ay dodged ama minato can dodge ama

Yes, because Dbz people don't use their brains at all right? Because another fact that comes into dbz fights is the surrounding also. Or how about flying?

Elemental superiority is determined by pure power in Naruto.. lets be honest. If wind has more power behind it than the fire, the wind will blow it away, if the fire is stronger than the wind it'll feed on it.. Prep time exists in DBZ also, Ninjutsu/genjutsu/taijutsu are all techniques just like KI powered attacks. Chakra control is the same as Ki control, Stamina is the same as Stamina in DBZ, handseals are the same as gathering Ki...

Again, the problem isn't the A>B>C logic, the problem is you guys don't know how to use it correct. I have seen people trying to compare Naruto from Part 1 and Naruto from Part 2 in the A>B>C logic when trying to determine who is stronger, buts it not applicable due to Naruto's growth.

Requirements of A>B>C logic:

- Same character with same power or higher (A)

- Character B the one who lost needs to be weaker of course

- C lost to B , and is weaker than B in everything.

- Hence A is the dominating one.

I agree with this, you did a much better job than me describing A>B>C logic.

How fans like yourself use it:

- Character A beats character B

- Character B then beats character C

- However Character A has decreased in power, but character C has increased.

- Fans will still try to force this logic, when it is not applicable.

[/COLOR]I don't know that I have seen this fallicy before, but I believe you. In my experience the most common A>B>C logic error is made when comparing Sasuke/Deidera-Kisame/Gai-

The problem isn't the logic itself, the problem is the ones who apply it. And no, what you are talking about is not A>B>C logic, its not applicable to that, due to the fact you actually TRAIN after that fight.

I still don't believe that logic because: to put it simply, lets say I am rock, another person is sciccors and the third person is paper. Lets call me A, person #2 B and person #3 C.

In this, extremly simple example the logic behind A>B>C doesnot work, and I am saying that as things get more complicated the less predictive A>B>C logic is in respect to a fight.

A>B and B>C are both true but A doesnot beat C.

Example, Manny beats Mayweather. Mayweather beat Amir. However, Amir got stronger over time and ends up tieing it with Manny..

How about Manny beats Mayweather, but Mayweather beats Amir, however Amir specializes in left side kicks and Manny is weak at defending left side kicks- So Amir beats Manny. Which example seems more realistic.

THAT IS NOT PART OF A>B>C logic.. because the Amir who lost to Mayweather is not the one who fought Manny...

Goku = the strongest due to A>B>C logic. Not counting movies Gohan is stronger lol- jk- but while Goku is the strongest, he could be beaten by weaker characters. For example, Gohan was stronger than Buu, but Buu beat Gohan via absorption. Streanght doesnot always mean victory,- its more complicated than that. Cell was tied with Goku, but Cell beat Goku. See how this logicis flawed??

Luffy will = the strongest due to A>B>C logic Luffy may be the strongest, but if Law uses his hax room he might beat lufy. Luffy can beat smoker, but smoker can navigate laws room because he is a logia.

Naruto will = the strongest due to A>B>C logic

My point is that just because you are considered the strongest doesnot mean you don't have weaknesses that others excell at and can exploit. Thats a fact of life.

Wasted your time with that post.. i'm not gonna respond to that, unless you quote it properly.. (Not trying to be rude or anything bro, but its kinda hard trying to respond to that. )

 

[closecombat22]

And so is dragonballz.

They do have weaknesses. However, Madara (Katon) > Tobirama (suiton). The elemental battle in Naruto is about who has more power in their jutsu going back again to A>B>C logic.

u had me intill u said that dumb sh!t i see the troll now

 

[KingHashirama]

u had me intill u said that dumb sh!t i see the troll now

The truth is dumb? k.

 

[BenjerminGaye]

Yes, because Dbz people don't use their brains at all right? Because another fact that comes into dbz fights is the surrounding also. Or how about flying?

Elemental superiority is determined by pure power in Naruto.. lets be honest. If wind has more power behind it than the fire, the wind will blow it away, if the fire is stronger than the wind it'll feed on it.. Prep time exists in DBZ also, Ninjutsu/genjutsu/taijutsu are all techniques just like KI powered attacks. Chakra control is the same as Ki control, Stamina is the same as Stamina in DBZ, handseals are the same as gathering Ki...

Again, the problem isn't the A>B>C logic, the problem is you guys don't know how to use it correct. I have seen people trying to compare Naruto from Part 1 and Naruto from Part 2 in the A>B>C logic when trying to determine who is stronger, buts it not applicable due to Naruto's growth.

Ppl in dbz don't use their brains. Goku letting freeza power up, vegeta letting cell transform. Gohan playing around with perfect cell. I could go on forever.

Elemental superiority isn't determined by pure power. A water tech can hold back a more powerful fire tech. (Kakashi vs kakazu)

Handseals are nothing like gathering kai. Since handseal speed is the biggest factor not how much kai you can gather.

Chakra control isn't the same as kai control and quite frankly kai control was never a factor in dbz.
The only attack that requires prep is spirit bomb and even then if the power level difference is too vast it won't matter. (Goku vs freeza)

Like I said you can't use abc in naruto since there's just too many factors that go into a fight in naruto.

 

[KingHashirama]

Ppl in dbz don't use their brains. Goku letting freeza power up, vegeta letting cell transform. Gohan playing around with perfect cell. I could go on forever.

Goku WANTED to fight Freeza at his strongest. Vegeta wanted Cella at his strongest, Gohan got carried away and was trying to avenge the fallen by toying with perfect Cell.. big difference.

Wanting to do something doesn't = not using your brain..

 

[BenjerminGaye]

Goku WANTED to fight Freeza at his strongest. Vegeta wanted Cella at his strongest, Gohan got carried away and was trying to avenge the fallen by toying with perfect Cell.. big difference.

Wanting to do something doesn't = not using your brain..

Even though the fate of his friends and quite frankly the universe hung in the balance? That's pretty stupid.

Same goes for vegeta.

Same goes for gohan.

 

[KingHashirama]

Even though the fate of his friends and quite frankly the universe hung in the balance? That's pretty stupid.

Same goes for vegeta.

Same goes for gohan.

Not really, when you have confidence.. its not stupid at all actually. Minato should've let Kakashi kill Obito.. but he didn't .