7th Gate Gai vs Ay and B

[KingHashirama]

I'll address the rest of your post in 30 minutes or so.

However, right now you are telling me this. Madara who is capable of using Mokuton, didn't use it against minato/kakashi/gai/gaara/Naruto/Sasuke because he couldn't, because if he could he would've done so? Right?


If that is not your train of thought, then why do you keep on saying that had he didn't do the slash so he couldn't.. uh no. Madara could tank his kick and proceed to slash him, or slash him while dodging. Madara also is a trained shinobi in taijutsu himself, but i assume he couldn't use those skills as a juubi's jinchuriki either, right?

Now only excuse you have for the questions above to avoid contradicting your trian of thought would be "he had too much ego", just like the many long lists of excuses that are made for writers' inconsistencies in fighting.

And do not avoid that question above with an excuse of "has nothing to do with the subject", i know it doesn't.. however you are clearly failing to see the logic you are showing/using right now.


You don't have to reply to this post, if you just wanna reply to my other post in 30-45 minutes.

 

[Killua Zoldyck]

I've already debunked the raikiri argument and stated another example of how Base Minato could fight moving at speeds on the level of cloaked raikages without having any kind of performance boost.

Not that this has anything to do with the argument but what cloaked Raikage are we talking about here? V1 or V2? If its the latter then please do explain yourself.

Btw you're debunking consists of Raikiri moves in a straight line, which doesn't make any difference.

I'm not arguing that there's not physical limitations. I'm arguing that you're physical limitations are incorrect, because the manga has shown that Gai has control of himself in gates. I dunno what this "fairly well" crap is considering, again, he reacted to a juubi jin that possessed abilities that could kill Gai instantly at the slightest misstep.

Gai has control over his basic movements, that's about it. When has Gai reacted to a Jubi Jin in the 7th Gate? I will give you a hint, NEVER. He was the one that was attacking, not Madara, so there was nothing to react to for Gai.

Your argument relies on the fact that Kid Kakashi didn't have the hand eye coordination to pull off chidori, and that a 12 year old Lee couldn't keep up with it either. And Ei can't maneuver very well in his v2 cloak? Say what?

I could name even more examples of an increase in speed (in whatever attribute) making the user lose control of whatever. The real question here is what is YOUR argument derived from? He can use Nunchuks in 7th Gate based on what?

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Even showed the ability to stop himself on a dime:

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Before foolishly deciding to follow through with the attack.

That's just him moving to the sides, Ei is unable to do things such as sharply turn around corners or change directions mid-attack while in V2.

 

[Killua Zoldyck]

That assumes that the attacks are equal, and that's an assumption you don't have the luxury to make.

That's besides the point. If attacks where to be equalized then the piercing attack would be FAR more effective in getting through the defence (albeit, unless said attack hits a vital organ, its normally shrugged off, were as a blunt force attack has a tougher time getting through a defence but once/if it does, it deals a lot more damage). Keep in mind the emphasis on FAR, a blunt force attack would have to be vastly superior to the piercing attack for it to penetrate the defence easier (or the thing both attacks are targeting would have to be lacking in durability, like the water tank). If Kisame can endure 7th Gated Gais punch despite have already been hit by a offset Hirudora then someone vastly more durable then Kisame at full health shouldn't have much of a problem with it either.

Your conclusion literally has no evidence backing it but "blunt force damage=/=Piercing Damage". Rasengan did more damage because it was stronger at that point in time, despite Chidori being more focused.

Proof?

I didn't say that 7G Gai's punches can hurt Ay. Though bringing an example where Gai didn't hit his hardest isn't relevant cause Gai wasn't trying to kill Kisame. But I'll drop the weapon point. Not getting into an extensive back and forth argument over something that isn't necessary to win.

Then why on earth where factors like Gai breaking a boulder with his base strength brought up in the first place?

Just because he was not trying to kill Kisame does not mean he did not punch at full strength. If someone is already beyond pissed and someone annoys him he wont be holding back a punch, even if he doesn't want to actually send the person to the hospital.

-Minato attacks Madara.
-Madara cuts him down.

-Gai attacks Madara.
-Madara backsteps to evade him.

Hmm, I wonder what the difference here is. Lol. Gai was too fast for Madara to cut down like he did to Minato.

So you think Madara should have cut Gai like he did Minato? Well the answer to that has already been said, Gai got in close thanks to the release of his 7th gate. Gai in 7th Gate is physically faster then Minato, by a lot.

Uh, no. Ay doesn't have the speed feats to evade a Hirudora released at point blank range. Not when Madara had to cut through it instead of just loldodging it like he did the rest of Gai's attacks.

He never loldodged any of Gais attacks, he parried them. There is nothing suggesting that Madara HAD to cut through it other then you claiming he did. I am just as easily going to claim that he purposely cut through it because he knew he could overpower it and he would know that Gai would get hit in the process.

Ay can dodge if it were used at long, maybe mid range. Point blank? Not a chance in hell. And that doesn't even include the fact that despite being able to take Gai's normal hits with minimal damage, the force will still push him back and make him lose his footing, making it even easier for the already point blank Hirudora to obliterate him.

There is a good chance considering his reflexes, speed and the fact that Gai needs to pause and form a seal. If it was smoothly integrated into his punches then sure, but it can't be.

How do chakra arms help?

Similar to how KCM Naruto used them against Nagato and Muu, attack is coming, chakra arms push him away last second, or in this case, his partner.

 

[KCN]

gai shits. these guys have nothing on hirudora. Its range encompasses a massive perimeter and there chances of dodging it gets reduced to 0 should gai close the distance and use it like he did against madara. This is inevitable also as shrouded Bee and Ay are both cqc fighters, so yeah.

 

[KingHashirama]

The only time he tried was when he had the opportunity to do so.



You can provide it. Won't make your argument any less dumber than it already is.

No not really, he casually swung against the technique, something he easily could've done. Unless of course you are saying Madara can't swing while scooting back.

That logic is perfectly sound here. We've seen Madara's reaction to an enemy charging him. When you can give a real reason as to why he opted not to cut Gai down like he did the last guy who charged him 2 chapters eariler, then your opinion doesn't mean anything.

No, we have seen Madara's reaction 2 different enemies, with different attacks, with different scenarios, with him being in different postures. If you do not know anything about fighting postures i understand. However, to claim him being able to react to Minato (who i might add wasn't in a "normal state" either) while he was perfecctly standing still. Compared to Gai's scenario where Madara was covering himself for protectin against explosion, and against the flash.

If only you could explain how.

Oh I did many times already, you keep ignoring it or keep using it over and over.

The bold is irrelevant. Madara could've cut him down from the point Gai appeared in front of him to the point where Gai tried to use Hirudora. He could've countered him during the exchange, yet he didn't, because he couldn't.

Oh i'm sure, just like he could've killed all of them via speed blitz, but chose to stand still. Let me guess because he couldn't blitz them right? lol.

They are the same.

Not in a million years.

1. Minato's position has jack shit to do with his teleportation. Please stop making shit up.

2. Gai pushed Madara back. Slower Obito cut Minato's arm off when Minato engaged him in CQC. There is a clear difference there. Whether or not Gai would've evaded isn't my point. I shouldn't have to keep explaining this to you. The point is to show that Gai>Minato in reaction speed.

1. Position has jack shit to do with his teleportation? Is this a joke? He can't teleport when he already has a rasengan in his hand, and is attempting to attack.. while he doesn't have the other hand to use.

2. -sigh-. Minato's ftg relies on him having to seen the attack coming and the moment he noticed it he poofs, its a feat on Obito's part that hes fast enough to hit someone in a second or less than that. Now again, these are 2 different situations. Minato here was already attempting to attack an obito who was changing.... the cqc he attempted was not based on shunshin, but his normal jump speed. While Gai's starting of cqc is based on quick 7th gate shunshin (well not shunshin but an explosive charge at madara, who was distracted by something else.).


Again you keep on showing you need to compare 2 different scenarios to prove a point. You also compare Gai's full charge to Minato's normal sspeed charge.. And then claim Minato wasn't fast enough to dodge, despite you having shown 0 dodging feats from the one you are defending.. So in which are you staying consistant in your comparison? you ain't even comparing 2 similar feats ...

Didn't do so against Minato either, yet Minato still failed. That's the point.

Because Minato couldn't catch him off guard(which is what intially led Gai to get close to Madara and stay close).. neither does he has the taijutsu skills to keep up that explosive attacks... However, you seem to think keeping up the barrage of attacks, makes him faster than Minato.. no.

He didn't go on the offensive til he had the opportunity. All you've done is go on about Kishimoto's inconsistencies. Can you even muster up a real argument?
.

No i have countered your points, and simply tried telling you , your entire argument is based on Kishimoto's inconsistant display of character's power.. Which you seem to think is good to argue with in a VS thread. You also seem to think people can't swing a staff while running back, despite being elites in kenjutsu and taijutsu. Keep on defying common sense..

Whether or not his swing is faster or better than his Shunshin is irrelevant. I'm comparing Gai and Minato's performances. Seriously, are you daft?

You are comparing their performances in different scenarios...... and saying they are the same. You compare a dodging scenario to an attacking scenario.... :hmm:

And from there you claim Gai has superior reactions.. based on jackshit.

-Gai appears.
-Madara jumps back as Gai keeps trying to hit him with MULTIPLE kicks and punches.

- Madara is in cover position , squinting his eyes to see.
- Gai appears and catches Madara by surprise.
- Gai is able to stick to Madara until who keeps jumping back, and then gai tries a Hirudora ..
- Madara casually swings.

No reason why wouldn't have just hit Gai with the staff the moment he tried to punch him if Gai was too slow.

Ask Kishimoto why a master Kenjutsu user and a master taijutsu user can't hit swing a freaking staff while jumping back, especially now that his physical prowess is many times greater.

We are talking about the 7G's speed. Not shown vs. Edo Madara. Not used against him as Gai was on Gyuki the whole time. So no, not relevant.

Then there's the fact that Hirudora obliterated Madara's Susanoo and freed B from the Mokuton binding. So no, the only one who failed in that sole instance was Madara.

He was on Gyuuki because he couldn't do shit to Edo Madara even if he tried to fight him, no? Since he didn't do it means he couldn't do it.

Madara failed, despite using casual techniques? oh my. Not sure if you know what failing is in a fight.

 

[KidGamer65]

That's besides the point. If attacks where to be equalized then the piercing attack would be FAR more effective in getting through the defence (albeit, unless said attack hits a vital organ, its normally shrugged off, were as a blunt force attack has a tougher time getting through a defence but once/if it does, it deals a lot more damage). Keep in mind the emphasis on FAR, a blunt force attack would have to be vastly superior to the piercing attack for it to penetrate the defence easier (or the thing both attacks are targeting would have to be lacking in durability, like the water tank). If Kisame can endure 7th Gated Gais punch despite have already been hit by a offset Hirudora then someone vastly more durable then Kisame at full health shouldn't have much of a problem with it either.

I already know this. Pretty sure I already stated something similar to this concept somewhere.

Proof?

In that same chapter, they talk about how Sasuke would've probably died had they clashed, and Sasuke's reaction makes it clear that it's stronger.

Then why on earth where factors like Gai breaking a boulder with his base strength brought up in the first place?

To show his physical power with the nunchaku. If you are going to jump in an argument at least know what it's about.

Just because he was not trying to kill Kisame does not mean he did not punch at full strength.

That's exactly what it means.

If someone is already beyond pissed and someone annoys him he wont be holding back a punch, even if he doesn't want to actually send the person to the hospital.

If only that was the case in Gai's scenario. But it wasn't.

So you think Madara should have cut Gai like he did Minato? Well the answer to that has already been said, Gai got in close thanks to the release of his 7th gate. Gai in 7th Gate is physically faster then Minato, by a lot.

Gai got in close due to the release. But now I'm going to tell you what I've told the other one at least 3 times now. Gai charged in, and then started to push him back with his Taijutsu and speed. If Madara could've done him like he did Minato, Gai never would've pushed him back that far. He would've cut him down on the spot. That simple.

He never loldodged any of Gais attacks, he parried them.

Ok.

There is nothing suggesting that Madara HAD to cut through it other then you claiming he did.




I am just as easily going to claim that he purposely cut through it because he knew he could overpower it and he would know that Gai would get hit in the process.

I'll give you this point.

There is a good chance considering his reflexes, speed and the fact that Gai needs to pause and form a seal. If it was smoothly integrated into his punches then sure, but it can't be.

Not really.

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Hirudora's mouth had literally formed around Madara before he had the chance to cut through it. Ay will already be inside the attack before he's even given a chance to move. He's not evading it.

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swept up Madara and his Susanoo before he had a chance to do anything about it. Let alone a Hirudora from point blank range. Then there's the massive explosion of the jutsu, and then there's everything else in my post that you didn't respond too.

Similar to how KCM Naruto used them against Nagato and Muu, attack is coming, chakra arms push him away last second, or in this case, his partner.

When chakra arms are fast enough to push or pull him, let alone Ay, from a point blank Hirudora hitting them directly and it's explosion, then we can talk. Lol

 

[KingHashirama]

So Gai magically somehow now knew how much of the hirudora would be needed to take down Kisame's attack ? lol ok.

 

[KidGamer65]

No not really, he casually swung against the technique, something he easily could've done. Unless of course you are saying Madara can't swing while scooting back.

I'm still waiting for you to actually prove something instead of repeating your opinion over and over and over again.

No, we have seen Madara's reaction 2 different enemies, with different attacks, with different scenarios, with him being in different postures.

2 different enemies, 2 different attacks, same exact method of attack. Madara's posture means nothing unless you are implying his posture stopped him from swinging his blade. Even then, he was standing upright in both scenarios, yet only swung his staff when Gai paused to use Hirudora.

If you do not know anything about fighting postures i understand. However, to claim him being able to react to Minato (who i might add wasn't in a "normal state" either) while he was perfecctly standing still. Compared to Gai's scenario where Madara was covering himself for protectin against explosion, and against the flash.

Please read my posts and the Manga before we reply. This is how these nonsense misunderstandings are formed. I'm not talking about any flash or any damn explosion from the opening of the 7G. I'm talking about the short scuffle where Gai pushed him back. Madara wasn't covering himself for protection against any explosion during that scuffle yet didn't cut Gai down.

Oh I did many times already, you keep ignoring it or keep using it over and over.

Except you haven't.

Oh i'm sure, just like he could've killed all of them via speed blitz, but chose to stand still. Let me guess because he couldn't blitz them right? lol.

Him choosing not to go on the offensive until engaged doesn't invalidate anything already said. I suggest we cut the idiotic comparisons out.

1. Position has jack shit to do with his teleportation? Is this a joke? He can't teleport when he already has a rasengan in his hand, and is attempting to attack.. while he doesn't have the other hand to use.

All I see is shit you pulled out of your ass. Minato having Rasengan in his hand doesn't stop him from teleporting, he's already teleported with Rasengan in hand before. Minato attacking doesn't stop him from teleporting. Is it harder? Slightly. Does it stop him? No. His other hand is irrelevant cause Hiraishin doesn't need hand signs.

2. -sigh-. Minato's ftg relies on him having to seen the attack coming and the moment he noticed it he poofs, its a feat on Obito's part that hes fast enough to hit someone in a second or less than that. Now again, these are 2 different situations. Minato here was already attempting to attack an obito who was changing.... the cqc he attempted was not based on shunshin, but his normal jump speed. While Gai's starting of cqc is based on quick 7th gate shunshin (well not shunshin but an explosive charge at madara, who was distracted by something else.).

It not being based on Shunshin is irrelevant as I'm not comparing their Shunshin. Lol. I'm comparing their reaction speed. So once again you've wasted both our time with another useless point.

-Gai engages JJ, pushes him back.
-Minato engages JJ twice, gets cut down with ease both times.

That shows that Gai's reaction speed and reflexes>>Minato's.

Again you keep on showing you need to compare 2 different scenarios to prove a point. You also compare Gai's full charge to Minato's normal sspeed charge.. And then claim Minato wasn't fast enough to dodge, despite you having shown 0 dodging feats from the one you are defending.. So in which are you staying consistant in your comparison? you ain't even comparing 2 similar feats ...

Oh boy. Am I speaking a foreign language? Is English not your first language?

-Gai engages JJ, instead of JJ cutting him down, Gai pushes him back. Meaning Gai was too fast to cut down.
-Minato engages JJ, gets his arm chopped off both times before he can react, yet Gai can not only react to that, he was too fast for Madara to fodder chop with his staff, meaning Gai>>Minato in reaction speed.

Because Minato couldn't catch him off guard(which is what intially led Gai to get close to Madara and stay close).. neither does he has the taijutsu skills to keep up that explosive attacks... However, you seem to think keeping up the barrage of attacks, makes him faster than Minato.. no.

Gai catching Madara off guard is what let him get up close. That has nothing to do with anything that happened after that unless you want to try and argue that Madara was offguard from that moment to the moment he countered Hirudora, and that'd be a fool's argument to make.

Minato and Gai straight forwardly engaged him, yet Gai pushed him back, and Minato got cut down. IT's not that hard a concept to grasp. He was able to keep up a barrage because he is fast enough to react to Madara's attacks and because he himself strikes too fast for Madara to just chop him down like he did Minato.

No i have countered your points, and simply tried telling you , your entire argument is based on Kishimoto's inconsistant display of character's power.. Which you seem to think is good to argue with in a VS thread. You also seem to think people can't swing a staff while running back, despite being elites in kenjutsu and taijutsu. Keep on defying common sense..

Except you haven't. All you've done is talk about Kishimoto's inconsistencies. Lol. There is no substance to your argument. None whatsoever.

You are comparing their performances in different scenarios...... and saying they are the same. You compare a dodging scenario to an attacking scenario.... :hmm:

Addressed.

And from there you claim Gai has superior reactions.. based on jackshit.

Addressed.

- Madara is in cover position , squinting his eyes to see.
- Gai appears and catches Madara by surprise.
- Gai is able to stick to Madara until who keeps jumping back, and then gai tries a Hirudora ..
- Madara casually swings.

Ask Kishimoto why a master Kenjutsu user and a master taijutsu user can't hit swing a freaking staff while jumping back, especially now that his physical prowess is many times greater.

I should ask you to actually give some real evidence. "Hurr Kenjutsu Master hurr Taijutsu master" isn't an argument.

He was on Gyuuki because he couldn't do shit to Edo Madara even if he tried to fight him, no? Since he didn't do it means he couldn't do it.

Because he had been thrashed before using 7G or Hirudora.

Madara failed, despite using casual techniques? oh my. Not sure if you know what failing is in a fight.

In that instance? Yes he did. Getting obliterated by the enemy's attack is a failure. A loss? Not in this case. But a failure? Yes. But of course, you seem to lack the ability to properly comprehend the definitions of some terms so I won't be surprised if you try your hardest to argue your viewpoint here. Lol.

I'll address the rest of your post in 30 minutes or so.

However, right now you are telling me this. Madara who is capable of using Mokuton, didn't use it against minato/kakashi/gai/gaara/Naruto/Sasuke because he couldn't, because if he could he would've done so? Right?

Nope. Never said that. I said that Madara couldn't cut Gai down like he did to Minato two chapters ago because he didn't. Not the same thing as Madara not using an ability we know he can use. You have no proof that he could have cut Gai down like we have proof that Mokuton can be used.

If that is not your train of thought, then why do you keep on saying that had he didn't do the slash so he couldn't.. uh no. Madara could tank his kick and proceed to slash him, or slash him while dodging. Madara also is a trained shinobi in taijutsu himself, but i assume he couldn't use those skills as a juubi's jinchuriki either, right?

That refers to an action we already saw Madara perform against an adversary two chapters ago. There's no reason he wouldn't do the same unless he can't. Your Mokuton comparisons fall flat on their faces because JJ Madara never bothered to use Mokuton, so me claiming he can't do it because he didn't show it isn't legit when there's proof he can do so. There is no proof that he could have cut Gai down. There's evidence for the opposite.

-Madara could've tanked Minato's Rasengan with little damage, yet he decided to cut him down instead. Should've done the same to Gai. If he could've done what he did to Minato, to Gai, he would've done so.

Now only excuse you have for the questions above to avoid contradicting your trian of thought would be "he had too much ego", just like the many long lists of excuses that are made for writers' inconsistencies in fighting.

Uh...no.

So Gai magically somehow now knew how much of the hirudora would be needed to take down Kisame's attack ? lol ok.

1. Never said that.

2. Not relevant. Lol.

 

[Zexion~]

Oh okay Lol was a little worried when I saw all the gai support but then realized there is no Bijuu Bee

Although both of these guys have pretty good durability so its not a low diff fight at all

But I see Gai winning more times than not

 

[Haizaki]

Gai got in close due to the release. But now I'm going to tell you what I've told the other one at least 3 times now. Gai charged in, and then started to push him back with his Taijutsu and speed. If Madara could've done him like he did Minato, Gai never would've pushed him back that far. He would've cut him down on the spot. That simple.

Bro show these guys this:

Spoiler

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Vision was blocked so he couldn't see when Minato teleport. He had no surprised face when Minato appeared. People say "The kunai was there so he expected it" but somehow, Madara didn't expect Gai to come at him. He was surprised...This guys need to get that it's a feat.

There's the fact that Gai creates the Aura so it should logically move towards Madara when the person who the Aura is coming from moves.

There's the fact Madara could sense.


What I find funny is how Madara was talking for some reason about Gai underestimating him but suddenly decides to be surprised for some unknown reason before Gai is shown to appear:

Spoiler

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I wonder why he was surprised? Common sense says the person who just ran towards him in the next panel was there reason.

Gai stopped right in his front before he made his attack...Look closely at that scan and my point about the impact logically following Gai should apply. You can see the force coming with Gai towards Madara if you look closely at this scan.

Spoiler

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The denial is too strong with these guys.

I'll give you this point.

I disagree with that point especially looking at Madara's reaction in the second scan I'm about to show.

Stopped for AT

Spoiler

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Does the Handseal right in his front leaving him completely surprised:

Spoiler

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The surprised face showed that he was in a difficult situation. He was on his toes and resorted to stopping the attack rather than dodging with his surprised face which even adds more to the point that that was his choice right there. Not to mention, he didn't know the attack that was coming out so it doesn't make sense for him to put himself in that risk. His aim was to kill Gai seeing how he threw the TSB at him after that but Gai forced him to block previously.

Madara resorted to moving back against Gai's ordinary punches but somehow decided it was safer to strike against an attack he didn't even know was coming. Madara didn't know what was coming so AT was released with its mouth opened before Madara could strike. He could have dodged and attack Gai so that point about Madara wanting Gai to suffer the the impact of the attack is funny when Madara didn't even know the attack.

He was forced to strike rather than dodge...His reactions shows this. Though I only want to discuss with reasonable people atm.

 

[KidGamer65]

Bro show these guys this:

Spoiler

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Vision was blocked so he couldn't see when Minato teleport. He had no surprised face when Minato appeared. People say "The kunai was there so he expected it" but somehow, Madara didn't expect Gai to come at him. He was surprised...This guys need to get that it's a feat.

There's the fact that Gai creates the Aura so it should logically move towards Madara when the person who the Aura is coming from moves.

There's the fact Madara could sense.


What I find funny is how Madara was talking for some reason about Gai underestimating him but suddenly decides to be surprised for some unknown reason before Gai is shown to appear:

Spoiler

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I wonder why he was surprised? Common sense says the person who just ran towards him in the next panel was there reason.

Gai stopped right in his front before he made his attack...Look closely at that scan and my point about the impact logically following Gai should apply. You can see the force coming with Gai towards Madara if you look closely at this scan.

Spoiler

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The denial is too strong with these guys.



I disagree with that point especially looking at Madara's reaction in the second scan I'm about to show.

Stopped for AT

Spoiler

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Does the Handseal right in his front leaving him completely surprised:

Spoiler

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The surprised face showed that he was in a difficult situation. He was on his toes and resorted to stopping the attack rather than dodging with his surprised face which even adds more to the point that that was his choice right there. Not to mention, he didn't know the attack that was coming out so it doesn't make sense for him to put himself in that risk. His aim was to kill Gai seeing how he threw the TSB at him after that but Gai forced him to block previously.

Madara resorted to moving back against Gai's ordinary punches but somehow decided it was safer to strike against an attack he didn't even know was coming. Madara didn't know what was coming so AT was released with its mouth opened before Madara could strike. He could have dodged and attack Gai so that point about Madara wanting Gai to suffer the the impact of the attack is funny when Madara didn't even know the attack.

He was forced to strike rather than dodge...His reactions shows this. Though I only want to discuss with reasonable people atm.

Makes perfect sense. I can agree. Ay definitely isn't evading it.

 

[Killua Zoldyck]

The surprised face showed that he was in a difficult situation. He was on his toes and resorted to stopping the attack rather than dodging with his surprised face which even adds more to the point that that was his choice right there. Not to mention, he didn't know the attack that was coming out so it doesn't make sense for him to put himself in that risk. His aim was to kill Gai seeing how he threw the TSB at him after that but Gai forced him to block previously.

In a difficult situation? Do you understand how ridiculous that notion is? Especially when Madara overpowers Hirudora with a simple swing of his staff right after. This is Jubi Jin Madara we are talking about here, against only a 7th Gated Gai no less. Madara was never in danger at any point of that short exchange and he knew it. Just because you know you are far above someone does not mean there is nothing to be surprised about, it means Gai was stronger/faster then he thought he was.

Madara resorted to moving back against Gai's ordinary punches but somehow decided it was safer to strike against an attack he didn't even know was coming. Madara didn't know what was coming so AT was released with its mouth opened before Madara could strike. He could have dodged and attack Gai so that point about Madara wanting Gai to suffer the the impact of the attack is funny when Madara didn't even know the attack.

He did not simply move back, he PARRIED the punches. AKA he BLOCKED them. And what's this about him not knowing Hirudora was coming? Did you not just try and put emphasis on his expression at Hirudoras Pre-Release? So obviously he knew it was coming and that's why he decided to swing. Also in case you did not notice, Madara likes taking damage. Very few times in the manga have we seen Madara actually dodge something when he had the capabilities too.

He was forced to strike rather than dodge...His reactions shows this. Though I only want to discuss with reasonable people atm.

Reasonable people being those who agree with your notion.

In that same chapter, they talk about how Sasuke would've probably died had they clashed, and Sasuke's reaction makes it clear that it's stronger.

I will take your word for it.

If only that was the case in Gai's scenario. But it wasn't.

Its not in character for Gai to do what he did, that is to punch someone because they made the slightest of movements. Its pretty obvious he was in a aggressive state of mind towards Kisame.

Gai got in close due to the release. But now I'm going to tell you what I've told the other one at least 3 times now. Gai charged in, and then started to push him back with his Taijutsu and speed. If Madara could've done him like he did Minato, Gai never would've pushed him back that far. He would've cut him down on the spot. That simple.

Difference is Minatos hand was completely outward and Gai was already throwing punches the second he was in Madaras face.

Not really.

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Hirudora's mouth had literally formed around Madara before he had the chance to cut through it. Ay will already be inside the attack before he's even given a chance to move. He's not evading it.

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swept up Madara and his Susanoo before he had a chance to do anything about it. Let alone a Hirudora from point blank range. Then there's the massive explosion of the jutsu, and then there's everything else in my post that you didn't respond too.

No that's not what happened. Madara swung the second Hirudora was released and cut it in half, you could tell by the shape that the mouth is in, as if the lower jaw was ripped off. Copy paste the bolded please.

When chakra arms are fast enough to push or pull him, let alone Ay, from a point blank Hirudora hitting them directly and it's explosion, then we can talk. Lol

Ok

 

[KingHashirama]

@kidgamer.

Your argument is based on Madara jumping back.. He could've jumped back because he wanted to..... Because he didn't want to attack..... List keeps going on and on. Just like how he didn't use the black orbs as shield.. yet was able to perfectly do against 8th gate gai. And no method of Minato and Gai is different. Minato used a teleportation technique to arrive at a spot and attack, but lacked the surprise to get close enough and he himself is only good for 1 time hit, as he lacks the explosive power of Gai who can keep up that speed over a consistent period of time.

That is VERY different from "speed". Gai once he got close to Madara simply kept on going. Minato was not able to get close to Madara. Why did Gai get close to Madara ? because the man was distracted. Its simple as that.

If your whole argument is based on "Madara couldn't do nothing but go back".. then you need to go back and check a juubi jin's abilities.



Postures:

- when you are in a covering posture like Madara was and looking at something else, it is quite easy for you to be surprise attacked.

- However, if you are already in a battle, your reactions will not take a fall, as you are preped for attacks.

Posture and form has alot to do with how one reacts and so on.

Rofl, fast enough to teleport from the 8th gate's speed, when hes on guard.

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Bro show these guys this:

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Vision was blocked so he couldn't see when Minato teleport. He had no surprised face when Minato appeared. People say "The kunai was there so he expected it" but somehow, Madara didn't expect Gai to come at him. He was surprised...This guys need to get that it's a feat.

There's the fact that Gai creates the Aura so it should logically move towards Madara when the person who the Aura is coming from moves.

There's the fact Madara could sense.


What I find funny is how Madara was talking for some reason about Gai underestimating him but suddenly decides to be surprised for some unknown reason before Gai is shown to appear:

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I wonder why he was surprised? Common sense says the person who just ran towards him in the next panel was there reason.

Gai stopped right in his front before he made his attack...Look closely at that scan and my point about the impact logically following Gai should apply. You can see the force coming with Gai towards Madara if you look closely at this scan.

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The denial is too strong with these guys.



I disagree with that point especially looking at Madara's reaction in the second scan I'm about to show.

Stopped for AT

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Does the Handseal right in his front leaving him completely surprised:

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The surprised face showed that he was in a difficult situation. He was on his toes and resorted to stopping the attack rather than dodging with his surprised face which even adds more to the point that that was his choice right there. Not to mention, he didn't know the attack that was coming out so it doesn't make sense for him to put himself in that risk. His aim was to kill Gai seeing how he threw the TSB at him after that but Gai forced him to block previously.

Madara resorted to moving back against Gai's ordinary punches but somehow decided it was safer to strike against an attack he didn't even know was coming. Madara didn't know what was coming so AT was released with its mouth opened before Madara could strike. He could have dodged and attack Gai so that point about Madara wanting Gai to suffer the the impact of the attack is funny when Madara didn't even know the attack.

He was forced to strike rather than dodge...His reactions shows this. Though I only want to discuss with reasonable people atm.

@Bold, something he could've done while he was blocking and dodging.

"!" = shock/surprise

In the first situation = Madara is already fighting, he is not squinting his eyes or being distracted, he is aware of the opponents and so on, and fully in a fighting posture. Minato couldn't catch him by a surprise and hence got his arm chopped off.

In the second situation = hes paying attention to the light, and covering his face in a posture where he can be caught by a surprise attack.

Notice when Minato attacks he isn't surprised.

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A 7th gate user, isn't forcing the Juubi's jinchuriki to nothing.....


Sensed him when he got close, look at his eyes:

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Proceeds to avoid him:

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[Haizaki]

In a difficult situation? Do you understand how ridiculous that notion is? Especially when Madara overpowers Hirudora with a simple swing of his staff right after. This is Jubi Jin Madara we are talking about here, against only a 7th Gated Gai no less. Madara was never in danger at any point of that short exchange and he knew it. Just because you know you are far above someone does not mean there is nothing to be surprised about, it means Gai was stronger/faster then he thought he was.

Do you realize how silly you sound?....No surprise since it took me about 4 pages to convince you Gai can't use AT in his base.

- Madara was surprised because Gai footspeed was fast enough to make him surprised. I also love how you cut out the sensing part and the other parts where I prove he saw/felt Gai coming...He won't be surprised all of a sudden before Gai is shown to get there.

- Madara said he was being underestimated...Any reason for him to be underestimating his own opponent in a weaker gate? You're grasping at straws. Not to mention Gaara said his movements weren't human based on what they were seeing...That's an indication of a feat Kishi was showing us.

Minato was aided with the sand blocking Madara's view which left Madara surprised at first in the middle panel

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Meaning he didn't expect any of that. That wasn't close to stopping him from utterly destroying Minato. Gai's case which involves Madara actually seeing and being able to sense him at least like I showed in my previous post is somehow ridiculous.

The denial is too strong...What we're shown is Gai could match him at that point. What makes this short "exchange" silly is in between that, Gaara and Minato could see what was happening and both spoke to themsleves regarding Gai's ability before he fired AT.

He did not simply move back, he PARRIED the punches. AKA he BLOCKED them. And what's this about him not knowing Hirudora was coming? Did you not just try and put emphasis on his expression at Hirudoras Pre-Release? So obviously he knew it was coming and that's why he decided to swing. Also in case you did not notice, Madara likes taking damage. Very few times in the manga have we seen Madara actually dodge something when he had the capabilities too.

He was forced to block and he was moving back on his own because he was trying to evade.

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Let's think and look at those arrows pointed at Gai...There was an interval between the 2 hits that connected which is shown by the arrows pointing at Gai. Which means Madara was moving back trying to evade Gai as you can even see the lines around him and his hair..That's why Gai had to move twice like that to land the second attack without Madara being able to attack him with such movements in front of a Jin. If that wasn't because Madara moved back, then it means he was reacting to Madara's attack at that point otherwise there was no need for moving like that. Madara couldn't react with a strke because Gai's movements were too fast at that point in a CQC..Gai reacted fast enough to prevent Madara from striking which all in all shows anyone below Juubi Jin level isn't managing to survive once Gai gets up close. All this in a CQC while Madara had no time to strike because of how fast Gai was at that point. Blame Kishi not me for putting the 7G at such a high level when Bijuu Mode Minato got his hand slashed off by Juubito in a CQC before he could teleport, while Gai on there other hand could strike fast enough forcing Madara to block, Move fast enough to connect his strikes and bypass Madara's bodily speed to attack him at despite having the Rinnegan, react fast enough to prevent Madara from attacking him despite Madara countering him...What we saw from Gai was Movement, Stiking and reaction speed of a higher level or Madara would have been able to attack him. Also, the arrow pointing at Madara's feet shows Gai could position for his next movement before Madara could move a step back which is completely understandable why he was surprised and forced to strike it. Reaction is very vital considering after Juubito blocked Minato, he could attack Minato before he could react...While Madara couldn't attack Gai despite already blocking Gai's attempts. Gai overall speed combined makes Ay no match in a CQC.

- Did you just repeat the bold? I said he didn't know what attack was coming, how the attack was and whether the attack was large enough to affect his opponent. Let's read first though.

The underline is proof that you're cornered...If he loved taking attacks, he should have taken Gai's AT head on rather than strike it. Enough of your BS pal.

He knew an attack was coming but he didn't know what attack it was....Hence he tried to defend himself. You've only been assuming by the saying:

He never loldodged any of Gais attacks, he parried them. There is nothing suggesting that Madara HAD to cut through it other then you claiming he did. I am just as easily going to claim that he purposely cut through it because he knew he could overpower it and he would know that Gai would get hit in the process.

Fanfcition unless you can prove it..He didn't even know the attack coming and it's purpose so he'll take the safer route.

Reasonable people being those who agree with your notion.

Not insulting you but you're definitely not reasonable...Someone I argued with several pages in order to convince them that Base Gai can't use Hirudora? I expect this to go nowhere but anyone reading already know the result of this argument.

 

[KingHashirama]

@This dude, Madara only noticed gai, when he was right under him.. do you not see his eyes looking down.. for god's sake.

 

[Haizaki]

^^ @This dude...Enough with the horrific excuses.

- Madara was looking downwards because of the way Gai was positioned while running at him:

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That's not even an excuse...If you seriously want to use this as a reason to why that happened when the Manga outright pointed to us that it was a legit feat, then don't bother responding. Kishi won't even make Gaara say "His movements weren't human if all in all, the main aim was Madara just messing around or not expecting Gai or whatever joke you people are bringing up...There's the fact that Madara said he was insulted based on the Viz but translated as "You're underestimating me" in the normal version we use.. Not much of a difference anyways. Why would he not be going all out? It's a feat.

He kept up and I've shown the intervals between the attacks in my last post which shows there was further movement involved...Let's not be ridiculous and say "Gai is never keeping up" when in reality, he already did. Sensing? Madara had. Could he see Gai? Yes he could because his hand wasn't in front of his eyes. Was the Aura blocking? No because Gai creates it so when Gai moves, it should move with him. I proved it with my last response to KG shown with the impact at Madara when Gai appeared in from of him.

Madara was surprised before Gai was shown to appear? Lemme guess, he just wanted to be surprised because he was a Jin after all and he couldn't feel or see Gai so he'll just be surprised for the sake of being it? You guys are lame with the excuses.

 

[KingHashirama]

Gaara said those movements weren't human.. because hes never seen those types of movements.. While the expereinced on his team aka Minato wasn't in "awe" like Gaara was. And furthermore, no one here is denying Gai's physical prowess. Talk is about speed. Ay V2 is superior to Gai, just like Minato is superior to 7th gate gai.

Now again. Look at the freaking scan even you are posting. No contact was made in that scan, Madara clearly dodged it . In the scan previous to that one where the "!" is shown he notices Gai under him, in that scan he backs up to avoid Gai's attack. Simple as that.


He was squinting his eyes, obviously he was having issues with clearly seeing. He was then focused on the explosion. He also in a cover position , where he wouldn't be able to attack gai once he saw him. However, when Madara started scooting back, he could've hit Gai. Only reason why he didn't is because the writer chose not to. A Juubi's jin has reacted to the speed of ftg, something shown to be faster than the 8th gate speed, which is beyond 7th gate speed.

So when you want to compare 2 similar situations.. bring them to the table.. Comparing 2 VERY different situations and trying to make them the same is BS.

 

[Haizaki]

Gaara said those movements weren't human.. because hes never seen those types of movements.. While the expereinced on his team aka Minato wasn't in "awe" like Gaara was. And furthermore, no one here is denying Gai's physical prowess. Talk is about speed. Ay V2 is superior to Gai, just like Minato is superior to 7th gate gai.

Lol......


- Saw Ay battle Madara...Saw Ay's ridiculous movements when Onoki lightened him in V2 who ch

- Saw Minato movements against Madara

- Minato said "I didn't think Gai could use the Hachimon" after Gaara commented on Gai's speed...Him not saying anything is irrelevant when Gai's feat>>> Minato's. Minato didn't even need to say a word because Gaara had already said something regarding his speed..Going by this nonsense logic, 8G Gai isn't that fast and special because Minato never commented on his speed.

- Talk about overall speed? Gai>Minato> Ay. As simple as that...Minato may be able to teleport to a further range before Gai can physically get there...However, Gai trumps him in the overall aspect of speed especially the physical requirements. BM Minato could Hirasihin in BM before he was slashed, Gai's physical movements could catch Madara the second time after his attempt hadn't be blocked and he had to move twice to land the second one.

Now again. Look at the freaking scan even you are posting. No contact was made in that scan, Madara clearly dodged it

.

Once again, look at the Manga and stop looking silly.

Contact was made.

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Gai's punches with those bubbles(Whaterver it is Lol) implies contact was made...Which is were blocked. The impact is shown with the circles which implies contact was made when the hits were delivered. Kishi made that happened twice with 2 movements in the interval between the strikes...Yet Madara couldn't strike.

If Kishi didn't want to make it special, this should have happened with no contact or so:

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Madara didn't see him, how did he know?

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If you're going to say Madara sensed him, then you guys are hypocrites...If you're going to say Madara heard him running the you guys are hypocrites. Madera was surprised before Gai came(Right after his sentence) which indicates he saw or felt Gai coming. Yet Madara in all this cases is assumed to be normal.

Same for Tobirama.

In the scan previous to that one where the "!" is shown he notices Gai under him, in that scan he backs up to avoid Gai's attack. Simple as that.

Still talking rubbish I see?

He was squinting his eyes, obviously he was having issues with clearly seeing. He was then focused on the explosion. He also in a cover position , where he wouldn't be able to attack gai once he saw him.However, when Madara started scooting back, he could've hit Gai. Only reason why he didn't is because the writer chose not to. A Juubi's jin has reacted to the speed of ftg, something shown to be faster than the 8th gate speed, which is beyond 7th gate speed.

Omg...You're making yourself look bad. Reminds me of the Minato fans. Madara could sense, he was surprised for some unknown reason before Gai got there...That was because he saw or felt Gai coming. Simple...If not, He won't have evaded Gai's first punch when he couldn't see. He had the Rinnegan which wasn't even noted to be blocked by steam which isn't chakra.


When you try to downplay things, you end up saying stupid things that don't even make sense. The writer felt it was smart for him to hit Minato who encountered him for a very very short time get smacked but the writer felt it wasn't smart to do so against Gai who matched his physical prowess for greater amount ? and to add to that, have someone refer to his movements? Stop with this BS

Minato uses teleportation..Point A straight to B. Madara had Gaara's sand blocking his own view(Which surprised him) but Minato appearing out of nowhere didn't surprise him? Why ? Because Minato's speed against him wasn't impressive. He didn't see Minato teleport but he still got ready and slashed him without being surprised(Despite him not being able to see)...Gai's case, He was surprised before Gai came which means he actually saw or felt Gai coming but couldn't do anything between then.

If you believe the underlined, then you're too much for me to debate with...Minato's FTG isn't faster than 8G Gai when it's comparable to the 7th. He got outperformed in SM and BM and Gai in the 7th did much better.

If you're going to use the teleporting in between, then talk about hoe Gaara's sand is faster or how Lee can physically react to 8G Gai's full speed.

So when you want to compare 2 similar situations.. bring them to the table.. Comparing 2 VERY different situations and trying to make them the same is BS.

No when you want to make sense...Refer to the portrayal of the Manga. You're making 0 sense with this downplaying you're trying to force.

 

[Made in Heaven]

Gai .

 

[BLAZE]

Gaara said those movements weren't human.. because hes never seen those types of movements..

Gaara fought Madara alongside A :sdo: so Gai>>>>A in speed easily