[VS] 4th DataBook Hiruzen takes the gauntlet

[MickNerks]

the highest level of speculation.

Though stating that he uses a

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to summon insects is a speculation, you also must admit that believing that Hiruzen has NO means of using the techniques is speculation as well since the author of the entire series (Kishimoto) has been documented saying that he is able to use the techniques.

Naturally but you need a specific amount of calories to use their techs. Hence why skinny choji can't do shit. Why all ackimichi's are overweight. It would be pointless to gain extra weight if the techs can be done without it.

Your logic does not add up, and I dont mind explaining why.

You are stating that you need a certain amount of calories in order to use the Calorie Control Technique or Body Expansion which is why Choji couldnt use it in part one. This isnt accurate as we know choji could use Body Expansion, he just could not use calorie control on his own (He required the food pills for that). It isnt about the calories, its about the amount of chakra he has or that his calories can give him.

The expansion jutsu and Calorie Control (Butterfly Mode) have something in common that I think you are overlooking. That is the fact that they both require the user from the Akimichi clan to turn their built up calories into chakra in order to activate these technique.

Now the Akimichi clan isnt a clan known for high chakra levels so the fact that they have techniques that allow them to convert calories or fat cells into chakra makes since as it grants them access to large chakra reserve, which is require to use their chakra taxing techniques. With the Calorie Control Technique all they are doing is turning their calories into chakra which can THEN allow them to use their clan techniques. This is evident when we see Choji always lossing weight when he enters Butterfly Mode.

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He creates a large chakra reserve by eliminating most of all his fat cells in his body. He is LITERALLY TURNING HIS FAT INTO CHAKRA..

Hiruzen on the other hand has perfect chakra control and large chakra reserves already (which is the condition in OT) so he doesnt need to burn calories to create chakra since he also has all the chakra he will need already at his disposal. As long as he knows the hand seals to manipulate the flow of chakra in his body he should also be able to perform Expansion jutsu. And because he has powerful chakra already and perfect chakra control he wont nearly need as much chakra as choji to use the techniques.

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is taking a large amount of chakra in your body and forming butterfly wings on your back with it. Also redirecting that chakra into your fist to use the

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. Please take the time to ready how this technique works so that you understand that the purpose of the calorie control technique is to give them the CHAKRA neccesary to use the technique.

already accounted for. Hence why I said "Advanced techniques" to EliteKakashi. you didnt bring anything new to the table.

Would you mind listing a technique that you would consider ADVANCED, becuase the only one I see that may be advanced is

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.

Yet this technique only requires a shadow clone and a transformation, but at the core it is still Taijutsu. So which technique are you refering to that is to advanced for hiruzen to learn.

I don't even feel like addressing this. It's speculation at the highest power. The sheer fact that it's literally impossible for him to use sharingan and byakugan techs should already be proof enough that the hype you're clinging to is as faulty and illogical as the databook itself.

No one is suggesting that he can use Sharingan or Byakugan technique, and all logical people will understand that you cant use a doujutsu technique without a doujutsu.

@BOLD are you saying that kishimoto's description of his own characters in a world he created for you to enjoy is faulty and illogical becuase you may not understand everything in it???

 

[HiddenSound]

Enma could effectively release him from the technique, and hiruzen would also most likely create shadow clones to which could be a way to stop danzo from using the technique, as he could mistakenly hit a clone.



Hiruzen has all the proper requirements for each clan techniques:

Aburame clan: Hiruzen can summon insect by using the

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, which eliminates the need for hiruzen to house insects in his own body. With this technique Hiruzen can just summon insects near by with his chakra. This allows hiruzen to utilize most Aburame Clan Techniques.

Akimichi clan: Hiruzen doesnt need extra weight to utilize the clans

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. If hiruzen did learn the clan techniques then he also knows the Akimichi clans:

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, which would allow hiruzen to utilize all there jutsu with precise chakra control, which will eliminate risk to Hiruzen's health/life.

Inuzuka Clan: Hiruzen has Enma which has the similar

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of the dogs of the Inuzuka clan. Hiruzen would simply have to do a

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into enma/hiruzen (which is academy level jutsu) and then proceed with using any of the Inuzuka clan abilities. There is nothing overly complicated about these techniques once you have a beast partner with you.

As you can see Hiruzen is fairly capable of utilizing any of these clans jutsu, especially after we just received the Databook translations that he was taught these clan techs by the clans themselves.





I find it interesting that you dont think Hiruzen can defeat Tobirama, when it is stated that Hiruzen is aware of all his jutsu, as hiruzen has scrolls on all his jutsu and knows and learned all of tobirama's jutsu's himself. Its also implied that since hiruzen knows all jutsu that comes from konoha that

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himself.

With hiruzen knowing FTG himself and able to utilize a larger arsenal of jutsu than tobirama, how is it that he would lose to tobirama?



I only disagree with Obito and Minato. By the information given to us by the 4th databook, it would also mean that hiruzen is capable of using FTG, which gives him equal ground with shinobi like Minato and Obito.

Depending on intel, that won't be happening. Danzō, realizing anything less than his best won't cut it, he'd immediately use KA and immediately win. Though what you say is true. Clones could work. Not sure about Enma as he's no sensor. May not be able to stop Hiruzen in time.

 

[BenjerminGaye]

Though stating that he uses a

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to summon insects is a speculation, you also must admit that believing that Hiruzen has NO means of using the techniques is speculation as well since the author of the entire series (Kishimoto) has been documented saying that he is able to use the techniques.

it's not speculation, since the requirements for using bugs is letting them live in your body. A symbiotic relationship done AT BIRTH.

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A contract must be formed to use them. Hiruzen dosen't have a bug contact. Therefore no bugs. If he had it old Hiruzen would have it.

Your logic does not add up, and I dont mind explaining why.

You are stating that you need a certain amount of calories in order to use the Calorie Control Technique or Body Expansion which is why Choji couldnt use it in part one.

First of all you didnt even understand my argument. I said he lacks the required calories to do Body Expansion. Since if you don't have the calories you can't use any of their techniques.

This isnt accurate as we know choji could use Body Expansion, he just count use calorie control on his own (He required the food pills for that). It isnt about the calories, its about the amount of chakra he has or that his calories can give him.

Wrong again. He couldn't use calorie control but that dosen't mean he lacked the calories. Making it completely about the calories. Since if he didn't have the required calories he wasn't doing the tech, pill or not.

The expansion jutsu and Calorie Control (Butterfly Mode) have something in common that I think you are overlooking. That is the fact that they both require the user from the Akimichi clan to turn that built up calories into chakra in order to activate these technique.

I didn't overlook it. Its the basis of my argument. How you missed that is beyond me.

Now the Akimichi clan isnt a clan known for high chakra levels

quite the opposite.

so the fact that they have techniques that allow them to convert calories or fat cells into chakra grants them assess to large chakra reserve. With the Calorie Control Technique all they are doing is turning their calories into chakra which can THEN allow them to use their clan techniques. This is evident when we see Choji always lossing weight when he enters Butterfly Mode.

Common knowledge. What's also common knowledge is Choji's inability to use his clan techs when he's skinny. And I'm not talking about when he eats the pills and becomes skinny I'm talking about after the effects wear off and hes still skinny.

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He creates a large chakra reserve by eliminating most of all his fat cells in his body. He is LITERALLY TURNING HIS FAT INTO CHAKRA..

common knowledge. A perfect body for a athlete has at the most 2% fat, just in case you didn't know. And this isn't taking into consideration the training regiments ninjas go into to have the perfect body which would naturally allocate them less Fat than that of a athlete.

Hiruzen on the other hand has perfect chakra control and large chakra reserves already (which is the condition in OT) so he doesnt need to burn calories to create chakra since he also has all the chakra he will need already at his disposal. As long as he knows the hand seals to manipulate the flow of chakra in his body he should also be able to perform Expansion jutsu. And because he has powerful chakra already and perfect chakra control he wont nearly need as much chakra as choji to use the techniques.

I doubt hiruzen or jman have as much chakra bm choji.

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is taking a large amount of chakra in your body and forming butterfly wings on your back with it. Also redirecting that chakra into your fist to use the

You must be registered for see links

. Please take the time to ready how this technique works so that you understand that the purpose of the calorie control technique is to give them the CHAKRA neccesary to use the technique.

Common knowledge.

Would you mind listing a technique that you would consider ADVANCED, becuase the only one I see that may be advanced it

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.

Yet this technique only requires a shadow clone and a transformation, but at the core it is still Taijutsu. So which technique are you refering to that is to advanced for hiruzen to learn.

it's core being taijutsu dosen't change Hiruzen's inability to learn it. Heck matter of fact his hype only extends to ninjutsu and himself. Nothing states enma is a ninjutsu master and nothing states(not even his hype) that he has been trained in inuzuka taijutsu. Thanks for pointing that out.

No one is suggesting that he can use Sharingan or Byakugan technique, and all logical people will understand that you cant use a doujutsu technique without a doujutsu.

that's exactly what his hype suggests. Not including their techniques when it says "all techs of the leaf" is your bias.

@BOLD are you saying that kishimoto's description of his own characters in a world he created for you to enjoy is faulty and illogical becuase you may not understand everything in it???

no I'm saying that(and it's somthing he's made clear in the manga, did an entire chapter on it) taking hyperbole as fact is illogical. Especially when it contradicts the manga.
Is it possible for third raikage to have the strongest spear that can pierce anything and the strongest shield that can withstand any Attack? No

Just like it's impossible for hiruzen to have all the techs in Konoha.


I'm not gonna waste any more posts on this. You're as stubborn as kinghashirama when it comes to hype and portrayal.

 

[MickNerks]

it's not speculation, since the requirements for using bugs is letting them live in your body. A symbiotic relationship done AT BIRTH.

Spoiler

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A contract must be formed to use them. Hiruzen dosen't have a bug contact. Therefore no bugs. If he had it old Hiruzen would have it.

Nothing in the manga or the scan you presented stated that BUGS must live within the body in order for you to use Techniques of the clan. It simply stated that as babies they allow insects to nest inside thier bodies. Next he states that they make a contract with the insects.

I wont bother you with this anymore since it seems we cant come to an understanding.

First of all you didnt even understand my argument. I said he lacks the required calories to do Body Expansion. Since if you don't have the calories you can't use any of their techniques.


Wrong again. He couldn't use calorie control but that dosen't mean he lacked the calories. Making it completely about the calories. Since if he didn't have the required calories he wasn't doing the tech, pill or not.

I didn't overlook it. Its the basis of my argument. How you missed that is beyond me.

This is My point:

- Calories is required to use the techniques, You just need a large pool of chakra. Since Akimichi's dont naturally have large enough chakra reserves to use these techniques, then the masters a calerie conversion technique to turn their fat to chakra necessary to use the technique. A shinobi with a large enought pool of chakra would need to use calorie to chakra method since there chakra reserves would already be large enough to use it.


Your Point:

- The ONLY way to use the techniques is to First convert calories to chakra, Then by unlocking necessary calories you can then unlock the technique.


We are not agreeing on this point either, which I dont understand because all Im doing is using "More that one way to skin a cat" approach to this. But you seem to only think "there is only one way to skin a cat".

I doubt hiruzen or jman have as much chakra bm choji.Common knowledge.

It doesnt only come down to the amount of chakra. If someone has perfect chakra control then they dont need to use the same amount of chakra as someone withotu great chakra control. This was explained in part one. My point was that with hiruzens already large pool of chakra and his perfect chakra control that he wouldnt need as much chakra as choji in the first place.

it's core being taijutsu dosen't change Hiruzen's inability to learn it. Heck matter of fact his hype only extends to ninjutsu and himself. Nothing states enma is a ninjutsu master and nothing states(not even his hype) that he has been trained in inuzuka taijutsu. Thanks for pointing that out.

My point was simply that taijutsu is much easier to teach than Ninjutsu. And you seem to be avoiding my request for you to provide me with the technique that was to advance.

The clans hidden techniques are taijutsu, which the databook states were taught to hiruzen. It does just limit it to Ninjutsu in the reference to Hidden Techniques.

Is it possible for third raikage to have the strongest spear that can pierce anything and the strongest shield that can withstand any Attack? No

Just like it's impossible for hiruzen to have all the techs in Konoha.


I'm not gonna waste any more posts on this. You're as stubborn as kinghashirama when it comes to hype and portrayal.

It is possible for the 3 raikage to have the strongest spear in terms on Spear based taijutsu attacks, which is exactly what he is using.


Please explain what part of "Hiruzen knows all jutsu in konoha" is a hyperbole. What would be the exaggerated part of that description.

@bold Im seriously not trying to be stubborn, I just dont think you are understanding what point I was trying to make. Its ok though, I respect your opinion and im glad we could at least have this conversation without someone calling someone else names.

 

[BenjerminGaye]

Whatever you say man, I just don't see how it's possible to use bugs you Don't have a contract with.

The same way I don't see how it's possible, to use Akamichi techs when despite their already large reserves still force them to burn all their fat instantly just to use it.

And no his hype says ninjutsu, and genjutsu with no mentions of taijutsu or enma whatsoever. But we won't agree. I apologize for comparing you to kh, that's uncalled for and unnecessary.

It what very clear what he has all of and what he dosen't(repeated use of the word all).

All five nature alterations, Hidden Clan Techniques, Genjutsu, all Ninjutsu existing in Konoha which gives him the reputation as the professor.

 

[Selan]

I dont think you read the beginning description.

Hiruzen as stated by the 4th databook is given all the hidden clan techniques (except doujutsu techniques) and he also has all the genjutsu and ninjutsu that was created in the hidden leaf. This also means he know everyone in the leaf villages arsenal and most likely has a counter to it.

Orochmaru himself stated that if hiruzen was 10 years younger he would have won.
Danzo's only advantage is Kotoamterasu, which can be countered with enma or shadow clones
He knows tobirama's entire arsenal, and can also use most of it himself according to new databook..
ECT..

I perfectly read it. It's most like an hyperbole, do you really think he is able to use things like Gates, Raikiri, Hiraishin no jutsu, Rasengan?

Because he would have had the strength to completely drag his soul in the Shiki Fuujin and not only his arms. Hence I said that Hiruzen would defeat Orochimaru but die because of the jutsu's effect.

Danzo can use Izanagi and Kotoamatsukami, it's too much hax for Hiruzen.

Tobirama it's too fast for him, both in physical speed and reactions, plus Hiraishin.

People like Obito, Kakashi, Minato and Hashirama are obviously too much for Hiruzen, as good as can be and certainly is.